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dalnoth

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Otherwise a flag could just keep everyone off the board to force their opponents to not be able to job, and then suddenly dump hundreds of players onto the board, leaving the other side with a huge disadvantage.


No it would be a reciprocating factor, no side could dump more then 50 pirates extra on the board. it would eliminate zerging and the > Numbers always wins strategy.

 


How so? You don't have to match their pay, because they'll probably be fielding only one ship at a time. And if you can have 7 frigates per side in green ocean blockades, I can't imaging that third parties are putting much of a dent in your blockading ability, especially since they'll be attacking both sides


And yeah, it's hard to relate for blue ocean blockaders to realize or see why Third parties wreck blockades. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but really it is and until you experience it quite a bit, that's like me trying to tell you about something specific on Midnight. So yeah, can we not?

Most third parties do not attack both sides, Usually third parties enter to screw over someone/some flag. Which is not right, if they want to screw over someone they shouldn't be able to hijack someone's blockade to do it> they Should have to declare/drop.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by dalnoth at Feb 10, 2010 8:53:05 PM]
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Culiford

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This is one of the classic blue vs. green ocean divides, maybe even Sage vs. other oceans. In short, normal blockades have 100-250 jobbers per side, and a single frig represents a 100 jobber swing that can single-handedly determine who wins an otherwise close or semi-close blockade. And a third-party attacking both sides is definitely not always the case.


Why on earth would someone bring in a third party frigate to work for only one side? They would be far more productive jobbing/navigating for the side that they're helping because they could actually get points for them. We have third party ships on Midnight as well, and most of them are people looking to practice blockade nav and will shoot at both sides. The recent exception was when BV attacked Avalon, and a bunch of third party ships joined up to sink BV. However, they drew directly from Avalon's jobber pool (they made a deal with Avalon, and allied with them for the blockade so they could score points for the defenders), not from BV's.

The problem is not with third party ships themselves, it's with the huge focus on jobber pay instead of politics and with the inability of these third party ships to realize that scoring points for the people they're helping is more important than sinks.

I'll also go ahead and say that I think that the more people having fun driving in blockades, the better.

Also, banning third party ships would eliminate any fun things like Ketchy Cubby.


 
No it would be a reciprocating factor, no side could dump more then 50 pirates extra on the board. it would eliminate zerging and the > Numbers always wins strategy.

You're right, sorry. But I still think that it'd be better to have it based on jobbers in the flag, because that's a more consistent number than jobbers on the board.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 10, 2010 9:26:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Re: Sweetie is a pretty cool lady (/me sees if this title catches on) Reply to this Post
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Can you propose something that doesn't lead naturally to flags convincing jobbers to sit on full ships at port during live blockade segments for 80 minutes per blockade? I think it's possible, but I'll have to think over it longer.

To me, jobber abuse trumps blockade game balance. If you think the ability to take down SMAs is worth wasting thousands of hours of OOO's customers at port, then we are using completely different thought processes.

I can. Jobbers get paid when they are on a ship at the blockade site, regardless of whether the ship is in port or on the blockade board.
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Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Feb 10, 2010 9:33:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Culiford

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Re: Sweetie is a pretty cool lady (/me sees if this title catches on) Reply to this Post
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Can you propose something that doesn't lead naturally to flags convincing jobbers to sit on full ships at port during live blockade segments for 80 minutes per blockade? I think it's possible, but I'll have to think over it longer.

To me, jobber abuse trumps blockade game balance. If you think the ability to take down SMAs is worth wasting thousands of hours of OOO's customers at port, then we are using completely different thought processes.

I can. Jobbers get paid when they are on a ship at the blockade site, regardless of whether the ship is in port or on the blockade board.

So what happens when some pirate gets on board a random ship in port and just sits there raking in poe for doing nothing? I'm not against jobbers getting payed for the full round if they're forced to wait around for ships to go onto the board, but there's possibility for abuse. Back in the day when we paid jobbers by getting everyone onto frigates and dividing the booty (this was a terrible way to pay people), people would go do other things on land and then get on the pay ship at the end of the round to get paid for doing nothing. I can see the same thing happening with this, unless you want the blockade teams to also watch every single ship in port for lazers (which is possible, but gives blockade staff even more work to do on top of actually running the blockade).
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 10, 2010 9:41:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Re: Sweetie is a pretty cool lady (/me sees if this title catches on) Reply to this Post
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So what happens when some pirate gets on board a random ship in port and just sits there raking in poe for doing nothing?... unless you want the blockade teams to also watch every single ship in port for lazers (which is possible, but gives blockade staff even more work to do on top of actually running the blockade).

Dismiss jobber. Blockade crews have officers? Delegate. That's what management is about. Can't do so effectively? Rethink strategy. At least it's more interesting than just upping jobber pay and bringing in a bigger blockade fleet than they can handle. If it was me, I would want to make it possible for unmanned ships in port at the blockade site to be stolen by the other side for use in the blockade. Such an absurd concept - ships at war sitting in port with not a single soul on board to guard it :p
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Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Feb 10, 2010 9:59:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Culiford

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Re: Sweetie is a pretty cool lady (/me sees if this title catches on) Reply to this Post
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Well, yes, of course it can be delegated. And it is certainly something to suggest, and would cut back on the problem of jobbers wasting away in port. To game design with ye! :P

As for stealing ships, while it is silly for ships to sit there without guard during war, fun>realism. It's not fun for each side to have to have a frigate's worth of pirates sitting in port to defend every ship! Of course, if you had something to show that a ship was being sabotaged, you could have a much smaller number of people defending. However, I think that it's a little too much to require for a whole blockade. What if during the break between rounds 3 and 4 you had a half hour or so of stealing/defending? But once again, game design please! :)
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 10, 2010 10:07:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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Also, banning third party ships would eliminate any fun things like Ketchy Cubby.


I'm not suggesting they ban third party ships from entering. I'm saying they should ban third parties being able to post a job offer, sorry I guess I should have been more specific there too. I am a huge Ketchy Cubby fan.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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Culiford

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I shouldn't post late at night anymore, I seem to be missing key words, lol.

I still think that third party ships are a good opportunity for people to practice blockade nav. There's people who want to practice, but can't because there's a limited number of people that can nav for each side and because a lot of teams will invite only proven navs. You can't practice as a third party unless you can load a brig/frig (depending on ocean) and you can't do that unless you can post a jobbing offer.
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Prince of Universe A
[Feb 11, 2010 6:54:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amatoria

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... it would eliminate zerging ...

vs.
 
I'm saying they should ban third parties being able to post a job offer, sorry I guess I should have been more specific there too. I am a huge Ketchy Cubby fan.


I don't see how these two statements go well together.
Either you like people who want to just bob and bump around a blockade board for fun, especially in small ships ... or you want to put lots of regulations in place to prohibit them from doing that.

And saying everyone is just required to have enough hearties or crew mates isn't going to cut it for me either. That's making things less fun for people not more imo.
[Feb 11, 2010 10:21:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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What does a declared side zerging have to do with the price of tea in china, when relating to people playing ketchy cubby.

It's a lot less disruptive to bring in sloops to play a game, then it is to bring in a WF, sit on peoples points and shoot at a contender.


I want regulations in place to keep the blockade about the flags contending, not the third parties hijacking the blockades. It's not fair in any way shape or form, that flags work hard to be able to blockade and some shitheel can come in and completely wreck the day that they worked so hard for with 0 repercussions and for a fraction of the cost. Not only is it not fair, it completely discourages a lot of flags from participating in blockades and forces their hand to barter with these pirates who are doing them 0 favors for fear they'll just start shooting at them instead.

If you wanna blockade drop a chest, don't be a baby and go "Oh well they wont let me be part of the blockade, guess i'll get on my alt post a job offer and go shoot at them."
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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Culiford

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What does a declared side zerging have to do with the price of tea in china, when relating to people playing ketchy cubby.

I think the problem comes from within the Ketchy Cubby quote itself, not with the other quote. Ketchy Cubby was started to get more people having fun in blockades and to give people incentive to attack the large alliances that are beating smaller flags out of the blockade game. That's what third party ships do.

 
It's a lot less disruptive to bring in sloops to play a game, then it is to bring in a WF, sit on peoples points and shoot at a contender.

You have no right to win the island, you have to earn it. My view is that blockades are fun in themselves, and if someone wants to come in with a ship to add more excitement to the game, let them. And honestly, if you have 7 frigates on the board for your flag alone, one extra third party ship shouldn't mean that much if your navigators are better.

 
I want regulations in place to keep the blockade about the flags contending, not the third parties hijacking the blockades. It's not fair in any way shape or form, that flags work hard to be able to blockade and some shitheel can come in and completely wreck the day that they worked so hard for with 0 repercussions and for a fraction of the cost. Not only is it not fair, it completely discourages a lot of flags from participating in blockades and forces their hand to barter with these pirates who are doing them 0 favors for fear they'll just start shooting at them instead.

I'm sorry, you want to have to play the blockade game without playing the political game? Get the best of the third-party people on your nav list, and sink the others. Besides, I thought that what discouraged new flags from blockading was the ridiculously high jobber pay on dub oceans and the cross-ocean alliances/jobbing.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 11, 2010 12:48:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amatoria

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My bad for assuming that when I looked up this definition of zerging:

"Nowadays term zerg is used in mmo games to describe force consisted of large group of lower level players (often with only basic equipment) who use numbers rather then strategy to defeat the enemy, therefore requiring no skill. This tactics is commonly known as zerging"

So I thought you were talking about sloops. Which would exactly discribe the Ketchy Cubby situation.

One war frigate isn't really any less than the next by design, but then again I'm assuming that you're referring to it in this way because of your own über-super-mega-nav powerz making the significant difference. Could be wrong again though, that's the problem with assuming. I apologize for my forward thinking.
So going by the different premise that war frigs are being fielded against war frigs, the price of jobbing pay and the ship resource and needed stock being the same, the only difference is the war chest?

 
...some shitheel can come in and completely wreck the day that they worked so hard for with 0 repercussions and for a fraction of the cost...


So you're saying that 125.000 poe (at max for large isles) lesser investment constitutes turning your overall blockade cost to a fraction of what's being spent? My, you must have had cheap blockades. To my knowledge one frig fielded including jobber pay already is multiple times the worth of that sum. Especially if they're ZERGING - which would mean sending in A LOT of these ships, right?

Sounds like a severe case of definition No. 10 from the above mentioned source to me.

Everything you're suggesting is making the game more EXCLUSIVE to a large player base instead of more inclusive and more fun. And I'm not saying they should win if they are lesser skilled (so keep your paralympics reference for when it fits please kkthnx) but definately they should be allowed to try. And I'll gladly drop in round 3 again - any day.

PS: You sound as if Michael Schumacher was saying upon retirement day: But it wasn't fair that I had to drive up to 19 (!!!!11!!) Grand Prix for it. Each year again and again. I never got to see my family what with jetting all around the world and optimizing that car all these pracise runs. And it was just so blatently obvious we were the superior team! It's pure griefing.
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Dylan

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<3++!!!!11!
[Feb 11, 2010 1:05:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amatoria

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Culliford absolutely wins the patience award. He also recieves extra points on presentation. Primary School teachers ftw!
[Feb 11, 2010 1:13:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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I'm sorry, you want to have to play the blockade game without playing the political game?


I think you've drawn a completely wrong conclusion from what I was saying, which isn't a shock or a surprise. Politics would be alive and well between the two contending flags. I think you should mind who you are talking when you say I want to do something. I don't need to do anything, I've been there done that and bought the t-shirt. I have absolutely 0 things to gain out of anything argued in this thead.

 

You have no right to win the island, you have to earn it.



I think if you actually read my posts in their entirety instead of picking out things you don't like. If you want me to just sit here while you make up the things im typing just let me know, because I never said or implied any of the things you are coming out with in your posts. It's about the declared blockaders, not getting their blockade hijacked by non contenders who "want to have fun at other's people expense." If you want to blockade so bad, go blockade. If you have a problem with what people are doing, go blockade them. Getting an alt flag, throwing up a third party offer and shooting at only them with one ship is cheap.

 

And honestly, if you have 7 frigates on the board for your flag alone, one extra third party ship shouldn't mean that much if your navigators are better.


Speaking from tons of experience here right? Because midnight has 7 frig v 7 frig blockades all the time? Right?






Ama:

 
So going by the different premise that war frigs are being fielded against war frigs, the price of jobbing pay and the ship resource and needed stock being the same, the only difference is the war chest?



A third party can wreck an entire blockade for someone by bringing in one ship. While contenders are paying for sometimes up to 7 times that. That is the point im illustrating.

 
Especially if they're ZERGING - which would mean sending in A LOT of these ships, right


let me clarify the term zerging in reference to puzzlepirates. It's using sheer numbers to overwhelm your opponent. I use the term zerging for a flag that outjob's 2:1 and has horrible blockade talent. They are using Numbers to win and not Skill which is quite contrary to what the game advertises. You could argue they are better at the "social puzzle" but it's not a social puzzle as much as it is everybody buddying up to eachother to not lose their islands, Which is a game design flaw in itself.


And Ama, you've taken 3 completely different arguments about 3 differently related things and tried to make a sandwich out of them if you want to argue points fine, make counter points. If you want to take cheap shots by cross referencing completely different things that I've said that have nothing to do with each other then save it.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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Dylan

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I have a question.

Is Amatoria zerging because she makes three points in a single post, or are you winning this argument by zerging for the sheer number of your posts, however skill-less they may be?
[Feb 11, 2010 1:21:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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I have a question,

Do you ever contribute anything besides snide remarks and idiocy?
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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vnork



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This discussion is completely off track from the thread's original intent. Maybe a compromise could be that third parties are allowed on blue oceans, where they seem to be well-tolerated, and have restrictions on Sage, where almost anyone with blockade experience there agrees that third parties hurt the blockade game.
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Culiford

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I think you've drawn a completely wrong conclusion from what I was saying, which isn't a shock or a surprise. Politics would be alive and well between the two contending flags. I think you should mind who you are talking when you say I want to do something. I don't need to do anything, I've been there done that and bought the t-shirt. I have absolutely 0 things to gain out of anything argued in this thead.

I'm well aware of who you are (okay, vaguely, but I did read your long CC Goodbye post in Hunter parley). I know you led a powerful flag that owned multiple islands. When I say "you want to do something" I mean "you think things should be done this way". I think that my conclusion is correct, based on this quote:
 
forces their hand to barter with these pirates who are doing them 0 favors for fear they'll just start shooting at them instead.

Bartering with third party navs is part of the political game. By saying that blockading flags shouldn't have to negotiate with outside flags, you are advocating for a reduction in politics.

 
I think if you actually read my posts in their entirety instead of picking out things you don't like. If you want me to just sit here while you make up the things im typing just let me know, because I never said or implied any of the things you are coming out with in your posts. It's about the declared blockaders, not getting their blockade hijacked by non contenders who "want to have fun at other's people expense." If you want to blockade so bad, go blockade. If you have a problem with what people are doing, go blockade them. Getting an alt flag, throwing up a third party offer and shooting at only them with one ship is cheap.

I've read all of your post in their entirety. I've read every single post in this thread. It takes me quite a long time to type my posts, I even go back and make sure I've understood the other posters to the best of my ability and make sure my post says exactly what I mean to say. If I'm interpreting you incorrectly, then please let me know. I certainly have no intention of putting words into anyone's mouth.

Back to the discussion, some people don't have the resources to fight full blockades because of the huge resource barrier to blockading (ships and jobber pay). Should they be denied the ability to have fun on a blockade board? Are blockades restricted only for the ruling elite who have amassed huge fortunes? You say that third party ships are having fun at your expense, but isn't prohibiting third party navs from joining removing their fun so that you can have a little bit of extra fun?

As for contending flags that make alt flags to shoot at only one side (I think you're saying this occurs, not 100% sure though), those contenders would be better off not doing this because those alt flags aren't getting points for them. Also, if people really cared about politics, they would realize that the alt flag is supporting one particular side and either job/not job for the alts based on that. If jobbers don't realize who is on which side or who is neutral, then the political game isn't being played because the jobbers are showing that they don't care who wins or loses.

 
Speaking from tons of experience here right? Because midnight has 7 frig v 7 frig blockades all the time? Right?

No, we don't have 7v7 frig blockades. I'm not going to pretend that we do. However, we do have third party ships, and if one third party frigate doesn't unbalance a 3v3 frig blockade, I see no reason why it would unbalance a 7v7. One frigate is 33% of a faction in a Midnight blockade, as opposed to only 14% in one of your blockades.


And if we're misreading your arguments, feel free to write a post that clearly lays out your arguments that I can respond to in an equally clear way. (Not saying you aren't being clear now, but if you feel that I'm not understanding you, this would solve that.)
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Culiford at Feb 11, 2010 1:55:15 PM]
[Feb 11, 2010 1:53:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Misunderstanding #1: In dub ocean parlance, a third party refers to any flag that isn't a contender that puts up an offer. Unaffiliated and affiliated third parties are both referred to as third parties.

Misunderstanding #2: The majority of dub ocean blockades don't have 7 frigs a side, and don't have ridiculous levels of pay. Sure, the big ones might, and they're the ones that most blue oceaners would be aware of and/or puzzling in. Most blockades pay between 500-1000/seg and have 75-175 jobbers. And yes, 500-1000/seg is reasonable on green oceans.

Misunderstanding #3: Politics do matter on green oceans, but with the more casual style gameplay on green oceans, it's just a fact of life that many jobbers are independent-minded and not driven by politics. It's not as if green oceaners are just inferior at marshalling political support, it's an unavoidable feature of the demographics of the ocean.

Blue oceans are fundamentally different from green oceans. It's really hard for me to respond to your arguments when it's so glaringly obvious from your posts that you don't understand how green oceans work.
[Feb 11, 2010 2:11:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amatoria

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Dalnoth, while Dylan's post is not actually contributing much, at least it's witty to turn your own reference against you. Things like that should be par for the course in parley. Name calling only ever makes the one doing it look stupid. I tried to point this out to Hank before, he didn't get it either.

And now I'm getting confused:
 
... 3 differently related things ...

So are they different or are they related?

In an attempt to clarify what I was trying to say:

1) You're using the term zerging all wrong. It doesn't apply to something of equal strength (although that point is debatable) but surely refers to higher numbers than the party calling the zerg a zerg - so one third party boat no matter how damaging ain't it.
All you're claiming is that zerging isn't a skill - and I side with Culliford on the conclusion that zerging is a result of good political or social skill. Or in case of paywars maybe purely of the skill to raise jobbing poe. They still all remain SKILLS.

The blockade game is the high end game precisely because so many different skills are involved. If you reduce the number of possible skills someone can excell at to win, you make the game smaller, not necessarily better:

2) Why should OOO want to restrict who can go on a blockade board just so that the people going at it already get ... what? A less difficult fight? I thought you were so über and winningz it all already, you should have been delighted at the extra challenge. You said you would have enjoyed the blockades if they had been a challenge... which of the two is it now?

You can not hold two opposing views at the same time and claim they're both substantiating your side of the argument. You have to choose. This is the reason I am obiously either not understanding your points, or disagreeing with them completely.
It leads me to the following impression:

3) All this thread is accomplishing in my view is to add a sour and bitter note to your retirement instead of bowing out gracefully and delighting in your accomplishments. It's bad sportsmanship at best, or hubris. I'm not sure.

And it's complete news to me that one isn't allowed to put three arguments in one post... or whatever it is you're trying to tell me.
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Culiford

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Misunderstanding #1: In dub ocean parlance, a third party refers to any flag that isn't a contender that puts up an offer. Unaffiliated and affiliated third parties are both referred to as third parties.

That was exactly my understanding. Anyone who hasn't dropped a chest that has a job offer is a third party.

 
Misunderstanding #2: The majority of dub ocean blockades don't have 7 frigs a side, and don't have ridiculous levels of pay. Sure, the big ones might, and they're the ones that most blue oceaners would be aware of and/or puzzling in. Most blockades pay between 500-1000/seg and have 75-175 jobbers. And yes, 500-1000/seg is reasonable on green oceans.

Okay, then that's about the same number of jobbers (your max number is a bit higher than ours, but not by enough to make too much of a difference). This actually adds credibility to my argument, because my ocean and yours have about the same jobber numbers and same number of ships. Dalnoth was saying that my inexperience with 7v7 blockades was a problem for this discussion, but you're saying that 7v7 isn't common, so that my experience is actually more applicable now. We've had 1k/seg blockades before, and 500 is common enough. So it makes even more sense that 1 third party frigate shouldn't affect you, because it doesn't affect us in similar situations. And even if you do have an extra frig per side over Midnight, I point back to my previous post.

And even at those jobber pay numbers, blockades have a prohibitive cost for much of the ocean (yes, even on Midnight). Not everyone has several million poe to spend on fleet/pay. Taking in a third party ship is a good way to get some blockade nav experience without having to pay several million.

I'll point out again that blockades are fun, and that driving in them is even more fun. By saying "you must have millions of PoE to be able to have fun in this way", you're blocking the majority of the ocean from having blockade nav fun. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you can mandate to the ocean who can have fun and who can't. Not everyone is required to follow your playstyle. This is a sandbox.

 
Misunderstanding #3: Politics do matter on green oceans, but with the more casual style gameplay on green oceans, it's just a fact of life that many jobbers are independent-minded and not driven by politics. It's not as if green oceaners are just inferior at marshalling political support, it's an unavoidable feature of the demographics of the ocean.

Okay, fair enough. However, I don't see how this affects the ability of a blockade team to include the best third party navs (to improve their team and also to reduce interference by third party ships). I can see how the jobbers wouldn't have a flag that they prefer over the other, but third party navs should be known by blockading flags, and third-party effects can be greatly reduced by getting the good navs on your side.




Also, the more interesting blockades are and the more people who can take an active role in them, the better.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
[Feb 11, 2010 2:36:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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Here's why you are wrong Ama.

 

1) You're using the term zerging all wrong. It doesn't apply to something of equal strength (although that point is debatable) but surely refers to higher numbers than the party calling the zerg a zerg - so one third party boat no matter how damaging ain't it.


The argument about disabling third parties, and the Strength in numbers argument are completely unrelated. Reading comprehension.


 
2) Why should OOO want to restrict who can go on a blockade board just so that the people going at it already get ... what? A less difficult fight? I thought you were so über and winningz it all already, you should have been delighted at the extra challenge. You said you would have enjoyed the blockades if they had been a challenge... which of the two is it now?


Hey ama, Here's a great idea.

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=30064

 

A few notes on etiquette

1) Debate the Idea, not the Poster



And as far as Dylan goes, I could really give/care what he thinks/says, just like many other Blue ocean and malachite players. They live in a foreign sheltered world of the game, and most don't actively play anymore. Just parade around on the forums pretending to be the authority or voice, contributing nothing to discussions besides rhetoric and one liners, because they've been playing since X date and raaaaaa raaaaaaa. Sweetipie and Culiford have been have been far more constructive than most.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
[Feb 11, 2010 3:03:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://somethingawful.com [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Here's a good explanation of why third parties can be bad. You can read the rest of that thread, if you'd like, for some arguments and counterarguments that are sure to arise in this thread if it keeps going in the current direction.: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=106841&offset=200#1615908

#3 and #4 are the worst, and Sage has gone through extensive periods of both.

If Dalnoth and I had the inclination, we could create a completely anonymous alt flag and ruin every single minor/medium-sized blockade for the next 5 years. If the blockade is close, we could flip a coin and the coin flip would determine the outcome of the blockade. All of that at a fraction of the cost that the contenders would be paying, and with absolutely no social repercussions. I've seen plenty of examples of this. I really can't imagine anyone thinking that that's how blockades should be.

The idea of allowing new navvers access to the blockade game is admirable, but in practice it just doesn't work that way. At least on Sage, it's the experienced people third partying each week. I'm sure there are a handful of counter-examples, but I can't think of anyone I blockade with regularly who got their start by third partying.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by vnork at Feb 11, 2010 3:08:06 PM]
[Feb 11, 2010 3:05:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Amatoria

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2) Why should OOO want to restrict who can go on a blockade board just so that the people going at it already get ... what? A less difficult fight? I thought you were so über and winningz it all already, you should have been delighted at the extra challenge. You said you would have enjoyed the blockades if they had been a challenge... which of the two is it now?


Hey ama, Here's a great idea.

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=30064

 

A few notes on etiquette

1) Debate the Idea, not the Poster



The original statement of this thread was that weekly blockades are attrition IF THEY ARE NOT A CHALLENGE.

So how am I not debating the idea? All I am doing is pointing out that you claimed before that you were not having a good challenge and therefore being griefed. But now you want to remove third party ships because they can tip the outcome of any blockades?

To me, you should have welcomed each and every third party ship that entered at any of your "griefed" blockades because it would have relieved you of the boredom of having to fight those inferior no-show noob flags.

If you want to make costructive game design change suggestions (which would not belong in parley in the first place as has been pointed out previously by various pirates), suggest something that goes with what your intent is, and not the direct opposite.

You're not making sense.
[Feb 11, 2010 3:20:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Malted



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Regarding attrition: Make blockades best of 3 rounds

If contested blockades are fun, and the vast majority of blockades are contested 2 rounds or less, then it only makes sense to cut the excess. This'll make them seem like less of a burden/job. The 2 hour wait (potentially longer if you hit the round 3 break...) flagsitting after a short blockade is what causes the headache. This would also truly make blockades more inclusive, and give more people a chance.

Third parties:

The issue with third parties has nothing to do with talent or politics. It's about resources, and for me it's a moral thing. My definition of a third party is a flag loading one ship at a higher pay than its contending ally in order to pick up neutral jobbers and gain an advantage. There's no doubt that this provides an advantage. One extra frig, especially one full of neutral jobbers, is a huge jobber swing.

There are ways to deal with it. You can raise your pay to match the third party, which comes at great cost and usually imbalances the blockade. You can also hire a third party of your own to counterbalance. This is unfair to the rest of your more loyal jobbers working at regular pay. It's a slippery slope.

The idea of third parties giving newer players a chance might sound good in theory but it doesn't work that way in practice. A third party ship always reloads right away after it sinks. It also has the highest cost per ship in the blockade. It doesn't make sense for a new inexperienced player to third party. They won't be able to afford it for long, nor will they gain respect doing it. We used to plan blockades on Sage with one of our alt flags ready just in case someone tried to third party us. We always put one of our best navvers on standby and they always had one of their best on the other side.

Now, I agree, a sandbox environment is good and makes for fun gameplay. This is why third partying is mostly socially frowned upon on Sage. It used to be a lot more prevalent than it is now. In the past there were several alt flags dedicated to third partying. They mostly consisted of uber rich players teaming up with top navs to further their personal agenda. There are tons of old posts in Sage parley on this matter if you care to search.
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Novo, Sage
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I was born and raised in Glasgow. Trust me, some 15 year old kid isn't going to win a fight against me.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Malted at Feb 11, 2010 4:50:58 PM]
[Feb 11, 2010 3:36:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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That was exactly my understanding. Anyone who hasn't dropped a chest that has a job offer is a third party.

You made a few references to third parties not having much of an effect since they weren't allied, so I assumed from that. In any case, there's 2 forms of third parties that ruin blockades, and one involves allied flags and one involves non-allied flags.

 
Third party navs should be known by blockading flags, and third-party effects can be greatly reduced by getting the good navs on your side.

At least on green oceans, the blockade talent is far too spread out for that to be accurate.

 
Also, the more interesting blockades are and the more people who can take an active role in them, the better.

It's a fine line between third parties making blockades interesting and a third party that ruins one.

One example of unaffiliated third parties from my own experience is my flag's very first blockade. We spent months in preparation raising funds, choosing a target, moving ships and stock, training in event blockades, and garnering political support. On blockade day, jobbing was roughly even. A third party decided that it would be funny if the two contending flags won alternating rounds. That's exactly what happened, the defender won R1 and R3, and we won R2 and R4. The entire blockade came down in round 5 to the third partying deciding to occupy the cluster held by the defender instead of the cluster held by us at the end, handing us the victory. It was a "close" blockade and we won, which should have been really awesome, except it was pretty hollow because it was pretty difficult to believe that we actually earned the win.

Examples of allied third parties are the opening of Bowditch and Barbary. Bowditch was close, but won by one side almost exclusively because they used an allied third party and the other side didn't. At Barbary, the two contending flags had about 150 jobbers apiece and over 200 jobbers apiece in allied third parties. For a stretch of almost 2 years, political jobbers on Sage were paid at the "normal" rate and independent jobbers were paid at a higher third party rate. Interestingly enough, once the strategy behind allied third parties was perfected and it became more universally adopted by blockading flags (because not adopting it was an auto-loss), there was no advantage to doing so and it's no longer a major issue on Sage.

In late 2006 and early 2007, the prevailing opinion on Sage matched exactly what Culiford and Amatoria have argued. A year or so later, after fully experiencing just how unbalancing third parties could be, there was a nearly complete reversal of opinion among blockading flags. This might sound arrogant, but I really think that you have to have been there to understand my exact perspective on third parties. The non-Sagers in this thread that were on Sage blockade staffs during that time tend to follow the same train of thought (ie Sweetiepie, Dalnoth, etc.)

 
So how am I not debating the idea? All I am doing is pointing out that you claimed before that you were not having a good challenge and therefore being griefed. But now you want to remove third party ships because they can tip the outcome of any blockades?

To me, you should have welcomed each and every third party ship that entered at any of your "griefed" blockades because it would have relieved you of the boredom of having to fight those inferior no-show noob flags.

If you want to make costructive game design change suggestions (which would not belong in parley in the first place as has been pointed out previously by various pirates), suggest something that goes with what your intent is, and not the direct opposite.

You're not making sense.

I don't want to speak for Dalnoth, but you're dead wrong. Third parties were never a problem in his own blockades. You're missing that he's not arguing out of strict self-interest. He's arguing from what he's seen when he's been invited as staff for other flags.
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by vnork at Feb 11, 2010 3:57:20 PM]
[Feb 11, 2010 3:49:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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I wish I had time to give a full answer to everything that was posted in the last day, but I don't, so I'll just try to bridge the gap on third parties.

One of Sage's innovations a couple years back was to modify the use of third parties to try to skim off that segment of the playerbase that is more interested in money than in alliances or friendships by posting an obscenely high pay offer, while the main body of the blockading flag would post lower pay which would catch up the people who care more about alliances and friendships than pay. That would, in theory, let you grab the jobber advantage of a paywar without actually paying for a paywar. (I say in theory, because in practice, it can often fail in the implementation and result in the issues Culliford mentioned, like splitting points, having half-filled ships, etc...)

It can and has had an enormously detrimental effect in several scenarios, the worst of which amounted to sort of a schoolyard kind of dare to disrupt a legitimate blockade that represented months of effort on the parts of the participants for no more reason than shits and giggles, with no interest in either of the parties involved or the island itself. It can, and has, turned the course of blockades. I am opposed to its use in this manner because though conferring a short-term advantage, I feel that it is, on balance, detrimental to the blockade game as a whole, and I imagine it hasn't made its way to Midnight because my compatriots who are similarly situated to know about it and be in a position to use it feel the same way about it.

For me, I do not advocate the removal of the ability of non-contenders to post a jobbing offer in a blockade due to the significant number of scenarios where it adds to and deepens the gameplay opportunities, particularly in respect of creating new flags of influence, being kingmakers, breaking into the blockade game, intentionally preventing one of the contenders from winning the island, etc. If the pie could be sliced thinly enough to remove the rotten bit while preserving the tasty chunks, I'd definitely support Dalnoth's proposal, though.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Feb 11, 2010 4:08:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Culiford

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Here's a good explanation of why third parties can be bad. You can read the rest of that thread, if you'd like, for some arguments and counterarguments that are sure to arise in this thread if it keeps going in the current direction.

Okay, so third parties are more of an influence on green oceans than on blue oceans. However, what I was debating was that you should be able to handle it. Situations 1 and 2 are good things, and would be eliminated by what Dalnoth is proposing. While I agree that 3 and 4 are bad (especially 4), there should still be in-game methods of dealing with them, especially if they're bringing in only 1 ship.

Novo said that his flag always had someone on standby to third party for them if someone tried to pull #3 on them. Although not ideal, after a while other flags would realize that using #3 is pointless if both sides do it, and so no one would do it in order to save that extra jobber pay.

I have actually seen situation #3 on Midnight very recently. Burning Vengance attacked Avalon, and Avalon had 2 third party flags ally with them, both of which proceeded to pay higher than Avalon and BV. There was a jobber difference, and BV was crushed. However, that situation arose as a social puzzle fix to BV being obnoxious towards the entire ocean through their attitudes. Had the situation been reversed, it *might* have been even, because that's how irritated the ocean was with BV. BV was going to lose no matter what.

And had Avalon tried that against any other flag, Avalon would've lost because having jobbers split among multiple crews/flags is terrible management and has a very high chance of causing a loss.

This leaves #4, which is the only one unfixable with the current game mechanics. However, I don't think it's worth eliminating #1 and #2 just to get rid of #4. And even if you did make people drop chests, what if #4 has the spare PoE to drop? What happens then? At that point you've sacrificed 1 and 2 for a chance to stop 4, which just doesn't cut it.

Find some way to eliminate #4 only (possibly #3 as well), and I'll be the first to agree with you. Just don't cut out the good third party scenarios to maybe stop the bad ones.
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Culliford on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince of Universe A
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Culiford at Feb 11, 2010 4:25:09 PM]
[Feb 11, 2010 4:24:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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If the pie could be sliced thinly enough to remove the rotten bit while preserving the tasty chunks, I'd definitely support Dalnoth's proposal, though.

I think Dalnoth's original idea has the possibility of working quite well.

Thought experiment for Culiford: Do you think you would experience a political backlash if you checked the "No Third Party" box for a defense of Cnossos? If someone checked the "No Third Party" box if you were attacking, would you be able to stir up enough opposing backlash to make it not worth it to check that box?

I can guarantee you that on Sage, if Scrimshaw were blockaded tomorrow, I could check the NTP box and have no repercussions at all. Once the memory of destructive third parties have faded a bit, there would naturally be more clamoring for the ability to third party. On Midnight, if third party abuse started happening, it might not be so politically risky to prohibit third parties.

There's no way to know for sure, but I think it might be a self-balancing system that fits the profile of the different oceans. Perhaps a more tolerable solution is if both the attackers and the defenders had to agree to keep third parties off the notice board.


In response to Culiford's most recent post: dropping a war chest is more difficult than it might seem. Not only is there a PoE cost, but you have to have the fame, and you have to declare war on the defenders. A lot of the #4 third partying was done by alt flags that would have struggled to keep fame up for an extended period of time. Still not unsurmountable, but I think it might be sufficient.

 
And had Avalon tried that against any other flag, Avalon would've lost because having jobbers split among multiple crews/flags is terrible management and has a very high chance of causing a loss.

If you do it right, there's very little inefficiency in the system. The jobbers on a third party frig usually would be split between the two flags, so it's a net gain no matter what. Even if that's not true, third party frigs also rejob extremely quickly, so it's not for long that two half-filled ships sit in port when their jobbers could be on one full ship.
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