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DKE



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Guide to a Shoppe Blockade Reply to this Post
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In life, when two or more countries have animosity there are a myriad of ways to solve the problem. The primary ones are: Militaristic, Economic, and Political.

In Puzzle Pirates, when two or more flags (or people) have animosity there is only one way to solve the problem: Militaristic. A flag can declare war on another flag or blockade an island. Both of these solutions exists both for fun and at times a last resort. Issues, via attacks and insults, that occur on the forums sometimes transcend into the game and create issues where war declarations and blockades occur. The existence of these military means is one of the largest, most expensive, yet most effective ways to solve an issue.

However, what happens when two people launch a year of insults and criticisms and lace posts on numerous forum threads full of invectives and ad hominem attacks but refuse to join a flag? In it complete anathema to me that people can do this with no repercussions because they are not in a flag.

On Hunter, this issue has arisen. I would refrain from using names but the names will be used eventually so Srjan and Lovette own a series of shoppes on Hunter?s biggest island, Aimuari. It is no mystery these two have a knack for YPP economics because they make a good amount of money running their shoppes at high profitability (They claim 100 million). However these two, after a history with certain flags, which I will not go into, refuse to join a flag. They have launched attacks on a lot of people, including me and Jackpot. Yet, we have no recourse. We cannot declare war on them if they do not join a flag and we cannot blockade their island since they cannot take one without a flag. They seem content to remain flagless and run their shoppes.

The problem is, they criticize and attack on the forums and they are impervious to all consequences for their actions. If they were in a flag, Coerced Coexistence, who owns Aimuari, could declare war. At the very least that would prevent Srjan?s and Lovette?s ships, if they ran commodities, from porting for at least an hour. This would be small but at least it would be a recourse. This does not happen. They have found a loophole in the YPP game design. They can attack and attack on the forums, but without a flag there is no way to punish them for insults. If their only purpose on the game is shoppes there should be a way to blockade those shoppes.

Well, Jackpot and I discovered a way to do so. It is a Shoppe Blockade or an Embargo. An embargo is defined as a disruption of commerce. Though the analogy does not work perfectly to how a country would embargo another country, we have found a way to disrupt commerce legally and approved by the OM's. Taking a furnisher as an example, the shoppe is profitable in two ways. Speed of delivery and price of the product. Pirates want the cheapest but hope to get it at once. They may wait 3-7 days to save some poe. So Jacky and I realized that if we order a lot from the shoppe, we can backlog their labor pool to the point where no one will want to order from that furnisher again. We can hinder one of the tenets of business, delivery speed, the way an embargo would. If we tried a boycott or some other way to affect Srjan's and Lovette's business it would never work. Plus the OM's look down up on personal attacks via tournaments and other ways. This was a way to affect their source of income legally. A blockade costs money. This costs money. Srjan has responded that he makes money of our orders. This is true. However, he makes less profit from stools, troughs, fish skeletons, and other things than he does from game tables and more expensive items.

Our purpose is to punish him and Lovette, as a war dec or a blockade would, for their consistent attacks on us because without being in a flag there is no other way to do so. If we respond on forums, as we have, they get acrimonies and indignant and launch a barrage of diatribes and insults but then disappear afterwards without facing consequences. It would be great to walk around insulting and criticizing everyone without any fear of repercussions, but game designs tried to solve this issue with OM's and war declaration. Srjan and Lovette found a loophole. So, Jackpot and I found a way to break their seemingly impervious and invincible existence.

Our purpose was accomplished. Whereas a blockade takes an island and therefore extinguishes a person's ability to use it, our embargo or Shoppe Blockade has basically made their Furnisher, Tailor, IM, and apothecary unusable for their usual profits. The OM's gave us approval that as long as we pay with our money we have the right to order as much as we want from any shoppe we want.

If Srjan and Lovette had the courage and dignity to join a flag this never would have occurred as it did because we could have used war. YPP offers us no way to fight back. They gave us no choice but to invent the Jackpot-Lorddke Embargo. It is currently on-going and their shoppes are backlogged. They have been complaining on a thread in Hunter Parley but I thought it needed to be brought to the attention of all Oceans. Hopefully aggressive and petulant people on other oceans do not act as cowardly and have the backbone to defend their insults.
----------------------------------------
~Lorddke~
-Captain of -Obliteration-
-Lord of Clandestine
-Indiana Jones of Hunter
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by DKE at Jan 27, 2010 2:25:08 PM]
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Barney25

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The first to present his case seems right, ...
----------------------------------------
Barney
SO of "Silver Dreams"
Hunter Ocean
<><
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Barny alone is capable to sink us :(

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sweetnessc

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Could you please punish me by giving me money too?

Thanks!
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 27, 2010 2:32:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Could you please punish me by giving me money too?

Thanks!


Admittedly, that's not my preferred method of administering punishment.
----------------------------------------
Leif
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Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Jan 27, 2010 2:38:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ascotte

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First off, I'm highly suprised that you practised this technique mainly with member (royalties) of the Coerced Coexistence flag.
A flag, that nota bene, petitioned to the OM's because Cairna blockaded them repeatedly with the sole purpose of making Dalnoth bankrupt and with no interest whatsoever in the island itself.
Now, you come here and say that you are not interested at all in any of the ordered products and only care to harass them in the only way that really affects them.
I really frown my eyes upon this technique! If you ask me the ruling of the OM's should be that it's as much griefing as Cairna's cades were back in those days as the intention is pretty much the same.
Right, it's doubtful that you'll get them bankrupt though you take away any freedom they had by not being able to sell a large assortment of items.

Now, let me try to put it aside and give you a second ruling not considering the fact that it are CC members doing this.
I still don't believe this is a technique to be proud of. You're only purpose is to take a shot back at the player in a way it's affects them badly.
I criticize so many people aswell, will you therefor go blockade my shoppes. Criticism isn't always intended to be bad. It challenges you to do better. Perhaps it might be better to actually hear their criticism and improve your actions so that eventually you can prove them wrong.
And still, most players involved in this situation are shoppe-owners themselves, couldn't you therefor be of some kind of deadly competition so they would stop making any profit at all. Or perhaps you should start hunting them down when they are moving commodities or counter any of their actions on the market (eg bulk sales).

I'm sorry but you have more than enough options to not be able to use this despicable technique.
Besides, I'm curious for how long you'd really be willing to keep wasting your money on it and actually pay for every item ordered.
----------------------------------------
Ascotte,
member of the White Seahorse Club.
Playing on Emerald
 
"East-West, Huntards are best!"

 
tells ye, "You invented forum cades"

----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Ascotte at Jan 27, 2010 2:44:12 PM]
[Jan 27, 2010 2:39:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DKE



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Srjan's criticisms were not critiques but attacks and insults. They extended to the point where if it was anyone in a flag I would have asked for war.

It is the fact that they hid behind the loophole of flagless-ness that made me resort to this. I plan on keeping his order in his shoppes backlogged for months. I have spent under 100k on his shoppes. 100k a week is less than i spend on stock for a crew members' SMH's.

YPP advocates a free market economy on the oceans. This is a free market based embargo and there is no other way to punish Srjan and Lovette, none at all.

They do no pillage, or move commodities, or do ANYTHING where I could punish them elsewhere. Trust me, I wish I could have.
----------------------------------------
~Lorddke~
-Captain of -Obliteration-
-Lord of Clandestine
-Indiana Jones of Hunter
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by DKE at Jan 27, 2010 2:46:04 PM]
[Jan 27, 2010 2:45:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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First off, I'm highly suprised that you practised this technique mainly with member (royalties) of the Coerced Coexistence flag.
A flag, that nota bene, petitioned to the OM's because Cairna blockaded them repeatedly with the sole purpose of making Dalnoth bankrupt and with no interest whatsoever in the island itself.

So they're whiny?
----------------------------------------
Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Jan 27, 2010 2:48:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Could you please punish me by giving me money too?

Thanks!


That's the really strange part of this whole melodrama. He's complaining about getting money from people that like him about as much as he likes them. The irony is so thick you can taste it. And it's the likely reason that this has not been tried. I mean, where is the inherent sense is giving someone money to hurt them?

But sometimes, the crazy ideas are the ones that work. And they can be fun to try!
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Hankscorpio
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grizzlyly

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Hey Lorddke I ordered a stool at Fatal Finsh but it wont be done for another 8 days now. Darn economy these days. Can I borrow one of yours please?
----------------------------------------
Kickhead on Hunter

Kickie forced Clotho to walk the plank.
Clotho has left the vessel.

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[Jan 27, 2010 3:03:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DKE



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Yes.

At my last count i had 278. Find me in-game.
----------------------------------------
~Lorddke~
-Captain of -Obliteration-
-Lord of Clandestine
-Indiana Jones of Hunter
[Jan 27, 2010 3:06:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
NickScorpio

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Yes.

At my last count i had 278. Find me in-game.


I still think we ought to put as many as possible in the Explorer Hall on Aimuari.
----------------------------------------
Hankscorpio
[Jan 27, 2010 3:23:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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If it is all possible this issue shouldn't be muddied with Hunter Parley. While there is case evidence there; this Global Parley post is to help other oceans deal with the same kind of problems we have experienced on Hunter. If you would like to argue about Hunter politics go here: WARNING: Hunter Parley Enter at Your Own Risk (and if you're not on hunter it's something I don't recommend unless you wanted to have an excuse to pour salt in your eyes.)

This is simply an effective way to "blockade" someone that may feel they are impervious to attack. It should not be confused with greifing or harassment as the attacked has many avenues for recourse and it will not actually cause damages or losses. The shoppes will profit, just not as much as they might have hoped to. Please note we are not advocating breaking the TOS or harassing a single player. This is simply a guide to starting a sort of embargo or blockade against a shoppe.
I'd be interested what people on oceans with a much lower population think, as doing this could inadvertently turn a huge profit for an otherwise neglected shoppe.
[Jan 27, 2010 3:28:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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First off, I'm highly suprised that you practised this technique mainly with member (royalties) of the Coerced Coexistence flag.
A flag, that nota bene, petitioned to the OM's because Cairna blockaded them repeatedly with the sole purpose of making Dalnoth bankrupt and with no interest whatsoever in the island itself.

So they're whiny?


In fairness after the sixth straight blockade at 3k+ per segment I think you can start to call "attrition" which I'm sure you're aware, is one of those grey areas that game design encourages, but cleaver has stated he would prefer not to see. That's another issue though.

Frankly all this achieves is that it reduces the profit they make, you're still allowing them to Make a profit, and if they just stop
Producing items that have a low margin, well, you're out of luck frankly. In short, it's a flawed concept and ultimately you make it easier for them as they now have a reliable long term customer. Seems counter intuitive to me.
----------------------------------------
rachaelj wrote: 

"your standing in patronising has gone up and is now respected in your archipelago"
spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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Stephensam

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On Cobalt, there was some issue behind one pair of pirates who had many employees at their stalls so they could produce items very fast, so what they did was run up all of their competitors' ques with low-profit items so that their stalls produced items the quickest. They also jacked up their prices so you'd get your item fast, but greatly over-priced. Not quite sure if they still do it, or if it really matters, since not many pirates play Cobalt as it is.
----------------------------------------
Stevensam -Cobalt Native, founder and host of The PoE is Right. Creator of Lime Day.
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Ascotte

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Ok I see.
And yeah probably that Srjan does own plenty with them.

BUT what if you as a shoppe owner use a different setup for your shoppes, perhaps because you're less experienced.
And I'm mainly talking about alt labour here. The dubs are high, so most would need plenty of well-payed labour to get back some of the costs of a labour badge. I've known people (myself a few times included) that did not were able to cover the cost of the badge but earned back their losses mainly on selling the better stuff a few times/week or by selling them as premades in the inn (eg Shipyard).

I think I'd be correct to say that with such a system and then having nothing but basic labour needing items being ordered (which is relatively unlikely that this would ever happen) you would lose plenty of money per week, right?

So I'd like to add the question whether it would still be as justified. Perhaps, though the argument of "he's making money on it" falls away.


And maybe more importantly, all shoppe owners should be made aware of this so that nobody in future would use such a setup were they can lose too much when being caded.




N.B.: Not intended as shooting at you Jackpot, but actually attempting to add a constructive side-note to your embargo.
----------------------------------------
Ascotte,
member of the White Seahorse Club.
Playing on Emerald
 
"East-West, Huntards are best!"

 
tells ye, "You invented forum cades"

[Jan 27, 2010 3:55:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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I appreciate the flaws in this tactic. Unfortunately it was the best we could come up while still trying to respect the TOS. Please if you have a suggestion that would make a more effective embargo do not hold back.
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REJBELLS

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So they don't run commodes.. ever?? Or forage?? or Do gem hauls?? or whatever?? Or Run good pillages?

Then they must get the commodes delivered???
By alts?? Friends? Bots?

Putting the buy price up over their's may help slow down the flow of needed ingredients.

May start a bidding war and cull a few half hearted.. under the wire.. or poorly managed stalls too.

If they buy and sell.. .. the local market items.. tie them up too.. and sell them off to your flaggies and hearties..

Knows of pirates who put alts in unknowing crews to benefit from their punishment so to speak.. Or keep tabs on your movements and plans.

Bet they have huge storage ships full of commodes they need too.

Is it a waiting game??? only.. Can you really starve them out?

Watch for them to pop up elsewhere.
Even move to another ocean till things settle down
If this is even their main ocean.

Do they have an unending supply of dubs?? If you are buying cheapo stuff that will be hard to get rid of.. leave it there.

Unless they can afford to pay the cash for the dubs..


I dunno.. Mudslingers usually end up in the mud.. alone. Just cause people get bummed, annoyed, etc. with them always being so negative.

Who you are .. in the game speaks way louder.. Mud slides .. down ..after all.. And rain washes it away..Along with any detrious stuck in it.


Let us know how this goes please!
----------------------------------------
Wildsrose Of:
Cerulean, Meridian & Emerald

The Titan. The Kraken.
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Talisker

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So they don't run commodes.. ever??


This is a much easier thing to deal with than many think.

Usually you just check to make sure the flapper is sealing properly. It might be the chain is too long and keeping it from doing so. Alternatively, it might be to short, and you can either adjust the chain, or bend the rod to adjust the length. Granted, even if you have to replace the whole assembly, it's less than 20 bucks, and 10 minute's work.
----------------------------------------
Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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Searmin

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The flapper doesn't seem to be sealing properly, it sounds like it's usually running quite frequently. Not very much though. It has nothing to do with the chain, which is quite limp. Does the flapper need to be replaced?
----------------------------------------
Searmin

Conversations from the One Ring sloop:
 
Searmin says, "Okay, we're gonna sail this ship right into Mount Doom"
Dracina says," One does not simply sail into Mordor"

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Talisker

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The flapper doesn't seem to be sealing properly, it sounds like it's usually running quite frequently. Not very much though. It has nothing to do with the chain, which is quite limp. Does the flapper need to be replaced?


You need a new flapper. Better yet, get a woman with nicer haircut and a more uplifting undergarment.
----------------------------------------
Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

Av by Ecastasy
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Talisker at Jan 27, 2010 5:02:43 PM]
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Roleni

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The flapper doesn't seem to be sealing properly, it sounds like it's usually running quite frequently. Not very much though. It has nothing to do with the chain, which is quite limp. Does the flapper need to be replaced?


You need a new flapper. Better yet, get a woman with nicer haircut and a more uplifting undergarment.

Are you sure you're not thinking of a fluffer? <_<

 
Now, you come here and say that you are not interested at all in any of the ordered products and only care to harass them in the only way that really affects them.

They're interested in ordering the products, which makes all the difference.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Roleni at Jan 27, 2010 5:18:13 PM]
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Snowpixie

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... I really don't understand. I'd be quite happy to run a profit off somebody trying this stunt on me. You don't HAVE to enable the fish skeletons and stools, ye knows... >.>
----------------------------------------
Imp, totally sane mermaid-siren of Meridian.
Superdoodle avatar by Budclare =D
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StuManchu

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TL;DR
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
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REJBELLS

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Lubs Leif!

Thinks Leif has hit the right flapper of the right commode at the right time!
----------------------------------------
Wildsrose Of:
Cerulean, Meridian & Emerald

The Titan. The Kraken.
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sweetnessc

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First off, I'm highly suprised that you practised this technique mainly with member (royalties) of the Coerced Coexistence flag.
A flag, that nota bene, petitioned to the OM's because Cairna blockaded them repeatedly with the sole purpose of making Dalnoth bankrupt and with no interest whatsoever in the island itself.

So they're whiny?


In fairness after the sixth straight blockade at 3k+ per segment I think you can start to call "attrition" which I'm sure you're aware, is one of those grey areas that game design encourages, but cleaver has stated he would prefer not to see. That's another issue though.

Frankly all this achieves is that it reduces the profit they make, you're still allowing them to Make a profit, and if they just stop
Producing items that have a low margin, well, you're out of luck frankly. In short, it's a flawed concept and ultimately you make it easier for them as they now have a reliable long term customer. Seems counter intuitive to me.


Mads, stop spreading disinformation. ;-) The attrition Cleaver is against is trying to win by making people want to stop playing the game (in the particular case of RD, by dropping a blockade chest, then not showing up if the defenders came until the defenders got so tired of it they didn't come), not by making them play the game for real. Economic attrition and attrition by blockading an island for real repeatedly is jes' fine.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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dalnoth

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Is it now? Try and get a letter from someone at OOO to confirm that and i'll believe you. Because it has no where been definitively stated the specifics of what Cleaver was referring to.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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sweetnessc

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o rly?
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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dalnoth

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If you read what cleaver said, it pretty much details to a T what was happening on hunter. So please spare me your ORLY's.


He says attrition is pretty much by definition greifing and then refers to midnight flags who have bottomless resources.

How is that saying chain blockading with the soul purpose openly stated and advertised that they are trying to run you out of money is ok?

He says "Endless War" AND "Grind downs". He doens't say The endless war-grind downs. he's talking about 2 seperate things in his first post. Believe me, I've researched this alot.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by dalnoth at Jan 27, 2010 8:21:09 PM]
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sweetnessc

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Re: Guide to a Shoppe Blockade Reply to this Post
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He refers to Midnight flags that cannot be worn down economically, and can only be worn down by making them want to not play the game.

His message was pretty clear to me.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by sweetnessc at Jan 27, 2010 8:24:41 PM]
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dalnoth

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Funny, From how i'm reading it it says something else. Which is why I said if you can get a clarification from OOO's i'll believe it. Until then its open to endless debate thats been done more then Tyson Vs. Ali.

EDIT:

For the record by the way, We asked for clarification from OOO"s on the issue and they never responded to us. We were told they would get back to us and still to this day haven't.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by dalnoth at Jan 27, 2010 8:25:56 PM]
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