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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Game Design » Thread: [suggestion] Labor hours should multiply when downgraded. |
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Thread Status: Normal Total posts in this thread: 51
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goodmanj
Joined: Dec 10, 2003 Posts: 1167 Status: Offline |
When expert labor is downgraded to Skilled or Basic, it shouldn't be on a one-hour-per-hour basis. An Expert worker can get more Basic work done in less time than Basic laborer... so maybe 1 hour of Expert downgrades to two hours of Skilled, or three hours of Basic (though those specific values might be too high.) Skilled crafting puzzlers should be more useful, valuable, and appreciated than they are now. One would probably have to adjust the cutoffs for the various labor types to make it all work, of course. Disclaimer: I'm a top-10 alchemist, so this suggestion would benefit me. I don't think I'm in it for the money (I don't even have an alchemy job right now), but I think it'd be cool to run an alchemy stall full-throttle with myself as the only employee. ---------------------------------------- Argonaut Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt |
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Piplicus_BNO
 Joined: Aug 17, 2004 Posts: 7288 Status: Offline |
Agreed. ----------------------------------------
Like a bad penny. |
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fanon
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Depends on how related basic, skilled, and expert jobs are. To throw out a countering example, it doesn't matter how good I am at making a blade - carrying enough wood in to feed the fire will still take just as long. But then, putting in this kind of distinction will make things way too complicated. ---------------------------------------- FAnon Senior Officer of the Midnight Valkyries Prince of Ragnarok |
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Nashua
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Generally speaking one could say it takes less time for a skilled worker to produce basic labor. However, just as an example, it takes the same time to bake potatoes no matter if I'm a skilled cook or an apprentice. On another account, this would bring the obvious problem of people being payed more for the same amount of time spent on the puzzle. ----------------------------------------
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funnybones
Joined: Feb 5, 2004 Posts: 4034 Status: Offline |
And this is a problem...how? If you are better at something you should get payed more, right? Game-Designy Thoughtfulness ---------------------------------------- The Dread Pirates Robinson & Barthes, LLC The poor complain; they always do. But that's just idle chatter. Our system brings rewards to all. At least, to all who matter. |
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stefsorceror
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 1844 Status: Offline |
and expert is now being payed more then basic so there are SUPPOSED to be different in skillclass. ---------------------------------------- Tibiaking. Member of TTB, SN. Too cool to have a quote in my signature. Disclaimer: None of my posts are ment to be offensive. Any tarting about the offensiveness of my posts will be ingored. |
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Nashua
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Not if the end result of your labor was basic. Your skill at the puzzle was not a factor to decide how much you get payed, but the type of labor that needed to be used. There is actually another problem with this whole idea. If, say, my 5 minutes on the distillery puzzle produced 3 hours of basic labor, instead of just one because I can provide expert labor, I would be undercutting the chance of players with Ables to produce any kind of effective labor. ----------------------------------------
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char
Joined: Jan 4, 2004 Posts: 1544 Status: Offline |
What happens if theres only 1 skilled labor left. would you get 1 skilled and 2 basic. Also if that happens wouldnt it also cause the problem of finishing paint in one go? If im right, which who knows if i am, you would have to pay your expert labors more. For example, i pay 15/20/25 a expert labor would do 45 of basic work or 40 of skilled work which is alot higher than what there getting. Also skilled would be doing 30 of basic and be payed 20. Theres no way to change your pay to make it fair. If its not fair people (who notice) will quit. Zife ---------------------------------------- Zife Senior Officer of Black Death Host of the 11th Black Death Tournament Co-Host of the 10th Black Death Tournament |
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Nashua
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and then... How would this count towards labor throughput? If it counts towards labor throughput a couple of players would fill all the needs of a small stall, but undercutting the chances of those with Ables. If it doesn't count towards labor throughput, then effectively a stall would be getting more labor/hour than what is entitled. and... How would this count towards the allotted 24h of labor per day? If it counts, then you could see all your labor being drained towards a job that used mostly basic labor. If it didn't count then you would effectively have more hours than the 24h limit. Nah. I don't like this idea. ----------------------------------------
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goodmanj
Joined: Dec 10, 2003 Posts: 1167 Status: Offline |
My goal was to make expert laborers more valuable and useful to employers. Yes, Ables will make less money, but that will motivate them to get better at the puzzles. Do better, get paid more. At the moment, there's no real incentive to improving at alchemy or distilling: it doesn't make a noticeable dent in your pay. Case in point: I am currently the 5th or 6th best alchemist in the game. I don't even hold an alchemy job. It's more valuable to me to work in my flag's shipyard.
Sure there's a way. If an hour of Expert labor is equivalent to, say, 2 hours of Skilled or 3 hours of Basic, then as an employee I'd look for and expect wages of 15/30/45, or 10/20/30 ... it's the same principle as pricing rum, grog, and swill. One advantage of this system is that it sets up an objective basic "exchange rate" for labor types.
If the Basic-Expert exchange rate was 3-to-1, then when an Expert employee's labor is downgraded to Basic, they would lose 1 hour from their labor pool, and be paid for 3 hours of basic, while the shop would be charged for 3 hours of labor for throughput purposes. That's fair on both ends.
You might have to allow fractional labor hours to make this work. No big deal from a gameplay perspective, though there are potential programming issues.
How's that a problem? ---------------------------------------- Argonaut Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt |
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Nashua
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Losing one hour from they labor pool and getting payed 3 hours of basic labor is the same as 72 hours labor pool per day, if we were to apply a 3-1 change rate, goodmanj. This is the first problem. And the second problem is that since hardly any shop has an expert pay 3x what the basic pay is, you can see already players abusing this system and not wanting to fill expert orders.. I understand the 3-1 is just an example to clarify your point of view. However, no matter what exchange rate you apply, you are in fact going over the 24h labor per day. And as far as labor throughput is concerned, by taking 3 hours from them you are calling to yourself the bulk of the shop labor thoughput by spending only 1 hour of your labor time. But most important, you are undercutting other employees. I don't agree with lack of incentive to get better at the puzzles. Most orders can only be filled by expert or skilled labor as you know. The pay is higher, as such the player tends to want to achieve this platform and this get a better pay. I do understand however that becomes frustrating to the expert player to see their labor being turned to basic and thus getting payed less. This is especially frustrating when puzzling because you just spent time doing the puzzle. I just don't think this is the solution. ... What I would probably suggest was that shops kept a labor pool that would carry on for upcoming orders. You would do the puzzle and give your expert labor to the shop. Since there were no orders using expert labor you would have the option of either downgrading your result, just like what we do now, or save your labor on a pool. On upcoming orders, the shop would take from this pool, before asking for puzzling or going through their employees labor. The option of downgrading would be there because it would be possible, and most of the times desirable, that you finish orders already on the queue as quickly as possible. This pool would be bigger, the bigger the stall is... and the biggest on shops. Rationalizing the pool idea, I would say it was akin to, for instance, do the delicate embroidery on silk. These silk cloths could then be stored and cut and fixed later to the dress by the simple use of basic or skilled labor. The pool could be made of Expert labor only... or maybe skilled to. Dunno. ----------------------------------------
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kaykordeath
Joined: Dec 6, 2003 Posts: 1292 Status: Offline |
What if the level of labor was looked at as focusing on the WHO not the what. In other words, it takes someone with EXPERT skills an hour to accomplish something (say actually dying a batch of cloth) just as it takes an hour for someone with only BASIC knowledge to do something simple (like hang the cloth to dry). An hour is an hour. You get paid for what you do, not for how long it takes. ---------------------------------------- tht guy hird me 2 b a om |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
With the current system this wouldn't be a problem. Only the top 3 orders are usually worked on at any one time. So if theres and expert laborer, their hour will go toward the expert first. If thats all filled, then they're downgraded. If there were 2 or 3 hours of skilled or basic to be filled after the expert is filled, then they could do so. So that one hour of expert could fill the 2 hours of skilled, or the 3 hours of basic needed to complete an order. Its kind of the same premise as, "better equipment makes the workload faster and easier on the employees." A master capenter can come in and fix a table in a far far shorter time then an apprentice. ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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KoshMom
 Joined: Oct 12, 2003 Posts: 2169 Status: Offline |
[size=18]P - A - I - D ! ! ! [size=9] (sorry, I'm not normally the spelling nazi, it just got to me, that's all) In topic, if you want to get paid for expert work, you should only work puzzles that allow you to produce expert work. If you start a puzzle, and it shows that only basic or only basic-skilled work is available, then exit the puzzle before you start it. Don't you have a few seconds to make that decision before you start losing ratings? You know when you start the puzzle what sort of work is available to you. Unless someone else finishes an item while you are working, (thus bringing up the next, unknown, thing in the queue) you know you will be paid at most basic or skilled labor. ---------------------------------------- Avasta, Past Governor of Namath, captain of Ye Hardy Mates, of the flag RIOT |
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goodmanj
Joined: Dec 10, 2003 Posts: 1167 Status: Offline |
As I said before, I don't see where the problem is. An Ultimate sailor can do the work of 3 or more Able sailors, why shouldn't an Ultimate distiller be worth 3 Ables?
It's not abuse to choose the work which pays the best. In response, any wise shopkeeper will raise their Expert labor rates. And it's worthwhile for them to pay more for Experts, since an Expert can do more.
Yup. so?
Why bother with a 20% premium for expert alchemy labor, when I can get better pay at a shipyard, and help my flag build their fleet at the same time? Shopkeepers need expert labor, yes, but not very much more than Basic (and, for some industries, it's *less* valuable.). Expert labor isn't useful enough to shopkeepers at present, and their wages reflect this.
Too complicated, and as I said, there isn't enough profit motive in Expert puzzle labor to make it worth bothering.
Labor is mostly-automatic for a reason. I enjoy alchemy, but there's no *way* I'm going to play the puzzle 24 times a day, which is the only way to force my labor to be Expert, as you suggest. Especially since it takes me half an hour to do the puzzle. ---------------------------------------- Argonaut Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt |
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fanon
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The economy is dynamic. If there isn't enough labour in the alchemy market, then alchemy wages will rise accordingly until they can attract enough labour. Perhaps right now, the playing field isn't quite level since some industries have a puzzle and others don't. But, the value of expert labour will go up as puzzles are implemented, since it will be more difficult to obtain. People will be forced to continually puzzle in order to keep their labour from going dormant, and do well to achieve the higher-end ratings: perhaps when this happens, the shipyard (currently puzzle-less) will have less of an edge over alchemy...? If it's really a matter of expert labour not being valuable enough, I think a better solution may be to raise the standards: instead of Renowned being expert, make it Grand-Master. That will make expert labour worth more, since less people will be capable of producing it... though this may also require a tweak of the recipes to make sure it's still balanced. Or, of course, leave the rating standards as it is, and tweak the recipes to use more skilled/expert labour. ---------------------------------------- FAnon Senior Officer of the Midnight Valkyries Prince of Ragnarok ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by fanon at Dec 22, 2004 1:25:03 AM] |
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Lizthegrey
Developer (retired) Joined: Jul 22, 2004 Posts: 6911 Status: Offline |
This smells exploit-ish. |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
I thought the meaning is that an expert laborer can do far better and faster work at the lower levels. As I said above, a master caprenter can fix a table far faster then an apprentice. So those expert distillers could do twice as much skilled and 3 times the basic in the same hour. So if there were no expert labor hours to be filled, then the expert would then fill 2 skilled ot 3 hours of basic on the remaining orders. And these "extra hours" wouldn't count against the 24 hour cap. In most industries you can't choose what type of labor you produce now so its pointless, but in the distillery and apothecary? ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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goodmanj
Joined: Dec 10, 2003 Posts: 1167 Status: Offline |
Hmm. How so? ---------------------------------------- Argonaut Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt |
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Lizthegrey
Developer (retired) Joined: Jul 22, 2004 Posts: 6911 Status: Offline |
An expert laborer would want to have labor downgraded (2*basic>1*skilled) under this system; also, this would completely crash the market for labor hours in the ocean, because it would drastically increase the supply of hours. |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
How so? Since this only applies to the apoth and distillery right now, and people can't willfully change their labor type, how is this harmful? And harmful? I don't see it. Perhaps it'll just help people meet labor requirements, but as said above, only in 2 shop types thusfar. And a market crash for labor. It'll never happen unless about 5000+ people subscribe tomorrow and that would only last until they open stalls of their own. Also and expert laborer can only willfully downgrade their labor type if they booch the puzzles, and then they could only provide basic or skilled labor anyway. ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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Raerlynn
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Because it devalues basic labor to the point of ridicule. As in, 1 PoE wages become the norm again. Labor is like any other commodity: it has supply and demand. Too much supply and the price to pay for Basics drops drastically. ---------------------------------------- My page about me. I suffer fools all day long as part of my job. I make fools suffer me as part of my fun. |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
It would be interesting to see figures on the potential labor output per day. And if someone did drop basic to 1 per hour (which isn't a bad thing) then no one would work for them. Without a few thousant subscribers there would never be an oversupply of labor. Not with stalls. ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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Raerlynn
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That's the point. People would set thier wages for basic and skilled low to compensate for double/triple output from experts. This makes experts even MORE powerful in terms of money making, and floods the market with more basic labor than any one shop or stall could ever hope to use. It's overkill in the largest fashion. ---------------------------------------- My page about me. I suffer fools all day long as part of my job. I make fools suffer me as part of my fun. |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
I still don't see it. If a shop/stall owner were to do this, the expert laborer would notice and find another job. Plus there has to be demand for these labor hours to be "exploited". Plus if there was enough labor (which there never will be even if this were implemented) you'd see a drop in prices because of the largescale competition. ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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PsychoMantis
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I would rather go back to the old ways of getting paid crap wages and having to look around for jobs, but have enough labor to actually MAKE things, than getting a couple hundred poe a week from wages and have to struggle with lack of labor at every turn. Besides, what percentage of the ocean can produce expert labor? I'd guess 20%. If this helps solve the labor shortages, I'm all for it. ---------------------------------------- Legionnaire, Imperial Fist Chapter Prince of Lost Legion |
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goodmanj
Joined: Dec 10, 2003 Posts: 1167 Status: Offline |
Yay, now we're getting into macroeconomics. I was hoping we'd go there.
Only given current labor prices; as I've said before, I expect those to adjust...
But not that much. Argument below.
IF everyone could produce Expert labor, and IF all shops were puzzle shops, and IF Basic labor were the only kind that was actually used, then the oceanwide labor pool would triple, using the example values I've mentioned. BUT, since only a minority of pirates are Expert laborers, and since most of their labor will be used for Expert or Skilled tasks anyway, I can't see how the supply of labor hours would increase by more than 50% or so, probably much less. Since the total amount of money shopkeepers can spend on wages does not decrease, I'd expect a proportional decrease (i.e., no more than 33% drop) in per-hour wages. The labor pool probably jumped by a similar amount when merchant ships made island foraging pointless, but wages did not crash. If you're concerned that the extra labor will lead to overproduction, you can eliminate that by slightly increasing the basic labor requirements for products. I don't think scary claims of "global labor market crash" and "1 poe wages" are credible, though I'd be interested to read a detailed argument made for that case. ---------------------------------------- Argonaut Senior Officer, Six Leagues Under, Heavens Aligned Fleet Officer, Sweet Pillage and Mayhem, Cobalt |
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fanon
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A few points I'd like to make... - it's not that hard to get your stats up to expert. Or skilled, for that matter. Not everyone cares about every shop puzzle; for every person who does keep up their distilling ranking, there's probably another one or two - at least - who don't: either dormant accounts, or people who simply don't distill (ie don't work in distilleries). These people sit at the bottom of the distilling rankings, inflating the rankings of people who do the puzzle. I'd wager that, if you looked at the average stall, most employees would be capable of producing at least skilled labour, and most expert. (of course, I've only ever run ironmongers, so I could be way off on this) - lots of "you'd be right IF every industry had a puzzle" - does this imply that this proposal is simply a band-aid solution until all industries have puzzles? It's a pretty drastic change for a band-aid solution... - it's not safe to assume that the downgrade won't happen often. Let's look at the apothecary... how much expert labour does it use? If every expert apoth player were to use all 24 hours as expert labour, well, that's a helluva lotta white and black. Looking over the products, it seems like half to two-thirds of all labour required (at least) woudl be basic. Again, I'm not the expert on puzzle-based-ability, but I find it hard to believe that only a fraction of your employees are capable of skilled labour... (see the first point). ---------------------------------------- FAnon Senior Officer of the Midnight Valkyries Prince of Ragnarok |
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IcabobFreely
Joined: Sep 2, 2003 Posts: 878 Status: Offline |
Well, even when there were only shops there wasn't enough labor throughput to maximize the labor of most shops. Now there are hundreds of stalls, and at least twice the number of shops as there were before blockades. Whats the point? Its no band-aid soultion. Naturally expert laborers should be able to provide skilled and basic labor in a fraction of the time. As for other points. I am an able distiller. I hate the puzzle and can never get better then basic labor. I can provide skilled apoth labor, but don't much bother with it. If ever all of the labor puzzles are implemented there will be diversity in the rankings as people will shift to what they like. As I've said above. I highly doubt that even were this implemented that there will be "enough" labor to go around in everyone's eyes. Even if I only ordered things that needed basic and skilled labor I would never be able to keep up with demand. ---------------------------------------- Icabob of The Midnight Sun Avatar by Peterpan And remember... When you're having a really bad day, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 muscles to extend your finger and flip them off. |
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Nashua
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There is, I believe, enough arguments already to explain in a concise manner why this is bad idea. 1. You cannot produce more than your alotted 24h per day. Period. 2. It's exploitable and there is no guarantee shopkeepers would adjust their prices. In other words, the ringers would set a system and hope we got the message. That's no way to design a game. 4. Labor throughput would be seriously affected undercutting those who not being good at the puzzle yet would not get their labor used. These players are usually the newcommers whose labor is one of their major sources of income. The whole idea is riddled with exploit, both by shopkeepers and workers. If you don't like seeing your work downgraded, don't do the puzzle. EDIT: I gave you another possible solution and your only comment was "too complicated". Well, since we are talking about YPP here, I'd say that's not a problem at all. ----------------------------------------
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