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Crystallina

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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manaweb wrote: 
Crystallina wrote: 
A/anything: Get rid of the ace. Guaranteed trick taker. If you do not get rid of this, you are committing suicide.
K/anything: Get rid of it. The chances are too high that the ace will appear without you having a chance to toss the King.
K/Q/anything: Get rid of them both. When you have runs like this it's doubly bad.
J/9/8 - Get rid of the Jack, in most cases. If the rest of your hand is horrible, you are a very unlucky person. Use your discretion.
10/3/2 - See the next section. If you don't find any unsupported high cards, toss it. If you do, take care of the unsupported high cards first.


I agree with mostly what your saying Crystallina but I have a few minor modifications.

Nil Player

A/Anything - Try and palm these off to your partner but look before you do. If you have more than 5 cards in the Ace suit it maybe better to rid higer other suit cards and short yourself a suit instead. Aces are playable in a nil hand, not complete suicide. (Barrenmore thinks now what was it they said about the Black Ship)

K/Anything - same as the Ace but you have a few more outs here. Try and rid yourself of them, If you have the Ace of the same suit as well pass the Ace and keep the King (as long as the other cards in suit are reasonable), then try and off suit somewhere or pass another suit high card or spade.

K/Q - I would be likely to only pass the King here and try and off suit or pass a spade. The Queen is easily gotten rid of, tart looking for off suits.

J and below - Rarely these win tricks. I would be more inclined to off suit or pass away my spades.


Given advice for the above examples were exclusively referring to the spade suit, hope that clears things up.
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Rapmasta26, in a surprisingly accurate assessment of many posters' attitude towards things:

 
PLEASE PEOPLE, IF YOU DONT AGREE DONT REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dec 4, 2004 9:20:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    YPP+Crystallina [Link]  Go to top 
imwamphyr

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Thanks for the threat, Roulette variation, too Reply to this Post
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This was a great idea for a thread, maybe they'll even sticky it.

I'd like to add another variation to your list, Roulette, everybody goes double nil every hand. At this time, we can't really play that in YPP, because they have "blind nil" but not really the option to have a double nil NO passing, as of yet. However, ye could always just have everybody bid nil to sort of make roulette work here.

Be warned, this is either a very fast game, or a very long game. Since it would appear in YPP you must get to the point level you have set to end the game, I'm inclined to believe they would ALL be long games. (In other servers, if you set the game to say, 300 point game, you win if the other team gets 300 points behind you, too, so you could be at only 200 points and win if they were at minus 100, but I dont' think that is so here in YPP).

I love suicide, anybody interested in doing some Suicide in YPP, look Muroni up in the game. =)
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Selling my Grunion Collection!
174 ships, 164 sloops, ALL GRUNIONS!
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Markoman

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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Because of the 10 of spades, I bid 1. I ended up taking 2.

Should I have bid 2 because of the King of Diamons?
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Markozeta
[Dec 15, 2004 6:45:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Nity



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Markoman wrote: 


Because of the 10 of spades, I bid 1. I ended up taking 2.

Should I have bid 2 because of the King of Diamons?


I wouldnt have counted the king and once taking your trump i would have thrown it off :)
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Tawnee says, "What freak would sig Shur?"
~Nity~
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Lizthegrey
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[Dec 17, 2004 8:06:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    https://plus.google.com/106912596786226524817/posts [Link]  Go to top 
Drabillord

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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The above picture has the elusive double nil (read text). A near impossible feat to achieve, and also a rather silly thing to even try attempt :)
[Dec 17, 2004 8:21:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    wassaf [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Nice on that double nil. Those are always fun to play.

Whoa, how did I forget about this thread? And it's stickied now lol. Yeah, I guess now I'm required to finish my T&T =/.
[Dec 17, 2004 11:07:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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[size=16]Advanced Bidding - Part 1 - Accuracy and Basic Communication

Everything in this thread will only be relevant to a dedicated partnership. Don't expect a random player to know anything in this post.

Trust and Dependability

When you play spades, you trust your partner to take exactly what they bid. You expect no more and take no more than you bid unless they get cut. Likewise, your partner trust you to take exactly what you bid. The only reason to ever not make your bid is if in the current situation. You trust your partner to think the same as you and go for the same play strategy. Without trust you will lose.

Bidding Position

Now we need to take into account what has been bid and what signal we want to send. Each biding position has a responsibilityand tactic. The finer points I'll save for later.

Table Positions

First Position - Here you set the tone for the entire bidding round. A low bid on your part will make everyone else value their hands more. A high bid on your part will cause everyone to underbid a touch.

Second Position - More important for being the first bid for the team than having any bearing on the overal bidding round. Has a bearing on how the other team will close their contract.

Third Postition - Again, more important for sealing the team's contract than the overall bid. Has a bearing on how the table's and the other team's contracts will be closed.

Fourth position - Strategically the best position to have. Here you decide the entire tone of the play. Making the total contract 10 or less means a game with lots of sluffing. Locking the bid or setting it higher will mean an agressive play and should only be done if you think you can set.

Partner Bidding

Open bid - An important signal to your partner. Will you signal an average hand (2-4), a weak hand (1-2), a strong hand (5+) or a nil? Are you trying to signal a set (bidding agressively), a bag set (underbidding) or a nil bid to your partner? Most partners chat beforehand about what each bid in each situation means.

Closing bid - Here you seal the contract. You look at your partner's bid, the other team's contract and bid appropriately. Remember what you want to signal and balance it with what you actually have.

The Hand

Pardon the coloring, I accidentally saved it at the wrong quality =/



Making the Bid

First off you want to count what you have. Here we have an interesting situation of being void in clubs. This gives us much leverage when the hand is played, but I will get to that later. The A's will convert and 1-3 of the spades will ride.

Whitefire's prelim bid - 4

Now we want to look at what the others have bid. The total contract for the other team is 4 with it being split evenly between them. Nity has bid 4. I know my partner likes to underbid 1 just to be safe. So I can count on Nity to pull 5, possibly 6. Being void in clubs means that I can steal 2 tricks, the AK♣. The odds of having the other team counting on those cards is roughly 40%. The odds of your 32♠ riding as trump is close to 85%. This set up is an excellent shot at setting, ~60%.

Here I still chose a 4 bid for several reasons. Firstly, I don't trust 60%. A 60% chance to set is good, but not worth risking the ~30% chance that my bidding 5 will set my team (With length in ♥♦ we may lose a trick to the other team trumping). Secondly, closing the contract at 12, with a low number of bags, is a signal between Nity and I to attempt a set. 2 bags is a good tradeoff for setting your opponent. Finally, if the cards fall raw (Nity depends on the AK♣ to convert and we are trumped in an off suit) we can still salvage a 8 bid by pulling an extra trick from my length in spades but have no chance at saving a 9 bid.

Whitefire's final bid - 4
[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Markoman

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I bid 3...

Should I have went to 4?
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Markozeta
[Dec 22, 2004 5:44:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Vurogj

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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Markoman wrote: 


I bid 3...

Should I have went to 4?


I doubt I'd have even gone as high as 3 on that hand. You've got the K Club, and maybe a trump over diamonds.
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Older, crankier,
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[Dec 22, 2004 7:05:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    vurogj    vurojg [Link]  Go to top 
Markoman

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Vurogj wrote: 
Markoman wrote: 


I bid 3...

Should I have went to 4?


I doubt I'd have even gone as high as 3 on that hand. You've got the K Club, and maybe a trump over diamonds.


I've given myself the rule of counting half your spades as tricks. It usually works, but it puts me on the overbid side of the fence. I adjust accordingly. My big issue is the high number of 7 range cards.

I counted half my spades, rounded down as 1, 1 for the K, and 1 for the Q-J combo, with the Diamonds or the 10 on the side to help.
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Markozeta
[Dec 22, 2004 7:09:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
TheRug

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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Markoman wrote: 


I bid 3...

Should I have went to 4?


The fact that you're asking implies that you got more than three tricks. If that's the case then I'm betting that everyone else bid low. Were you the first bidder? If so, I would have only gone 2, and if I was feeling really lucky I would have tried for a nil (Very hard with that trump, but possible). If you were bidding later on in the round, I would have looked at what people were bidding.

There are few times, however, when I would have bid 4 on that hand. One would have been in my partner had blind niled - then I might even have gone for 5, assuming that my partner would be passing me two counters. (Risky, I know, but if we're blind niling we're already behind anyway.)

As far as bidding the QJ as a point, you've got length in hearts - enough to confirm it isn't going to go around three times. (5 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 14) So the only way the QJ is going to convert is if you play the Q, your opponent plays the K, and then your partner drops the A on top of it. It's possible, but I wouldn't count on it. However, if I was feeling lucky I might do it anyway. It all depends upon what other people had been bidding, how they had been playing, and what the score is.
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-Rugsby, formerly of Midnight and now of HunterEmerald

no .sig, no .plan, no .clue
[Dec 22, 2004 11:17:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Markoman

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Actually, part of the reason I went to 3 was my partner was an extremely conservative bidder. He'd bid 2 when he had the ace and queen of spades, not to mention some other aces. I was the third bidder, and my partner bid 2.

Some people have told me in game about the Q-J. I intended to play the J heart first, which would pull out the K, then wait for the A, and pick up the third with the Q. But now I see that was flawed logic.

My old formula would count half of the spades, rounded down, as tricks, then count the high trumps. Finally, I add a point for every ace, 1/2 for every king, 2 points for ever A-K, especially if I'm leading first hand. Then I look away, then look back with that number. If it seems unresonable, I adjust accordingly.
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Markozeta
[Dec 23, 2004 4:35:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Rubby



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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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So what would one bid on this hand?


[Dec 23, 2004 6:19:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lizthegrey
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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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I'd say 6.
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Whitefire

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On this hand I would need to know the rest of the bids.
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Markoman

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I bid 6. Turns out Quix's nil broke pretty easily, and thus I ended up taking 7, while they scored 4. I contemplated 5, but I figured it was worth the risk to go for 6.



I bid 2, but I think I should have gone for 3...
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Markozeta
[Dec 24, 2004 6:30:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
PinkkBeard



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After a very nice read and return by my lovely partner. Needless to say, this hand made me giggle. We lost anyway, too far behind at that point, but it was well worth it.


----------------------------------------
Homullus wrote: 
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[size=9]Azure: Where'd everyone go?
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HuskyTed

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I think I got a contender against Shur's worst Blind Nil Ever.



And if you check the text, this is after he "checked" his hand and passed the Nil to me.
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Nity



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Sorry, THIS is the worst BN hand EVER


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Tawnee says, "What freak would sig Shur?"
~Nity~
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PinkkBeard



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Holy Monkeylife! If you pulled the king on the first hand, of which chances are good, that's damn close to a 9/10 hand, and with more luck you could run it.
----------------------------------------
Homullus wrote: 
There are still myriad varieties of sucking that you can do


Thusnelda wrote: 
Pinkkbeard gets a gold star.


[size=9]Azure: Where'd everyone go?
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Nity



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Yea i ended up letting WF take his 5 with the other aces, by throwin my diamonds, that gave him 3, then he took king diamonds, got lucky and when i lead spades, he had solo king, so he got his 5, didnt wanna set him lol

I took the rest lol
----------------------------------------
Tawnee says, "What freak would sig Shur?"
~Nity~
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Markoman

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I've been thinking for sometime, and I think I have an idea.

Suppose your opponent is about to win. Your down by a bunch of points, and the first guy bid a relatively high number. If I was the second bidder, I've considered hitting blind nil right away, rather than wait. The reasoning is that if they bid high, you can usually win, as the high cards are in your opponent is bidding high.

However, the other reason is that if you do get a terrible BN hand, your partner can bid nil, and you can try to set your opponent. Pass your partner low cards, and she'll pass you her high cards. Then you cover for her, gaining no bags and possibly setting the your opponent.

Is this an insane strategy?
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Markozeta
[Jan 2, 2005 12:49:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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No. It just takes luck and a good partner to see what you're doing. A team that relies on BN to get out of holes will usually lose. Teams that rely on sets and accurate bidding usually win.
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Smackey

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What Whitefire said is so true on so many levels.
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"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal."- Friedrich Hayek
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Markoman

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I bid nil. However, the only reason I got through this nil is because Xephin had all the spades.

But seriously, I think this is the hardest nil I've had to call.
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Markozeta
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BehindCurtai

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Regarding all those "best blind nil ever" hands, here's what I'd bid after I saw those hands:

Shur: 2 No trump
Llama: 3 no trump
Nity: 5 spades

Ok, I'm pushing just a little on that last one ...
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

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I'd hardly call that a hard nil hand actually, marko.
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[size=7]Sun shines in the bedroom when we play
the raining only starts when you go away

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Markoman

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It is considering my style of nilling. Of course, I'm still new to this game, but I like to find my low suit and sluff a lot of stuff. The big trick was the clubs, and it was pretty hard. My opponents led clubs first, and they succesfuly destroyed the king and ace early. Fortunately, the distribution was imperfect, so Xephin saved me when the queen was about to take.
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Markozeta
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Whitefire

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AngryChair wrote: 
I'd hardly call that a hard nil hand actually, marko.


What would you bid? 1? IMO, 1 bids are useless and should either be nils or 2 bids. The exceptions are cards that have close to a 100% chance of setting.

Of course, this comes from myself and Nity who regularly nil with cards like K♠, QJ♠, K and a low card of any suit, etc.
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