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bel_pirates

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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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Here's a Blind Nil bidding tip for people... You can effectively double the number of high cards you "pass" by passing your highest card in two different suits and throwing your next highest in that suit the first time it comes around. Example:

You have AK Clubs and AK Hearts. You pass the aces to your partner, then play the Ks on the first time around. You know your partner can take them since you passed the Ace. You don't always want to do it that way, but if you have 2 suits that are questionable, it can help a lot.

Overall, Whitefire has done a great job with his bidding/hand overviews. After you've been playing for a while, you can start to bid more aggressively, betting on some non-winners becoming winners. This is especially true when an opponent bids nil.

One other little trick for bidding late in the game is to bid low with a really good hand. This should only be used if you have some bags to take without going over and you need to make up some ground. Basically, if you and your partner have both bid 1 or 2, the other team will tend to run the bid up. Then you bust out with a hand that could have taken 3-4 or 4-5 and you set them. You get some bags, but it sets them back 60-80 points depending on how confident they were after seeing your bids. It's a gamble, admittedly, but it's great fun to do to your opponent... :)
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maroon_beard

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Seadog's How Ter Help Yerself Guide

First Hand:
Click

So I ended up bidding four on this hand, as I probably only have one trick in diamonds, one in spades and two in hearts.

The opponant ter my left lead first and decided ter lead the ace of diamonds. This is a very bad move fer two reasons:
A) After that he had 2 other low diamonds.
B) It allows me ter convert 2 diamond tricks instead of one.
If ye are thinking of having a good defence please don't do that, unless it either voids ye or ye have no other choice.

Second Hand:
Click

[size=9]Edited to remove horizontal scroll, by private request. I've linked the image(s). Please remember that not everyone runs on 1024x768+, so try to trim your screenshots so that they are viewable on 800x600. -Diamondblade

I decided ter bid three on this hand, I have one winner in hearts, a likely winner in spades if the opponants make the mistake of leading an ace of spades and likewise the king of clubs.

The way I played was ter lead a low diamond, otherwise I would be leading from my cards which cover my kings, bad idea. Then the player on my right leads the ace of clubs! This makes my king a winner, if he'd have bothered ter put me on lead I would have been in big trouble. After this my opponants keep leading clubs, every time I just trump them with my 3 spades.

That's all fer now, I'll update this when I get more mistakes :).
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Seadog,
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Shuranthae

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Gotagota wrote: 
Shuranthae wrote: 
Best hand ever!

Why am I looking at that and mentally figuring how to convert it? If your partner had the Ace or King of Diamonds...Hah, just today I had a blind nil hand like that, and had to lead with the Queen of Hearts. Thankfully, Rubby saved my bacon and I made it. I'm just bragging. <grin>

Oh, for the record, if you let the Timer run out it seems like you don't get to trade cards. I wasn't really paying attention but it seemed like that's what happened.
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JCorrado



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Okay, here's a question for regular Spades players, based on Seadog's recent post.

As a long-time Bridge player, I'm used to the opening lead (i.e., first card played) being from the strongest suit that that player has- it's an easy way to communicate to partner what suit you want led back to you. (Strongest, in this case, can also mean "what you've got the least of", since being able to consistently trump a suit is pretty darned strong.)

Do long-time Spades players do this?

Seadog's second example, where he led a diamond to start, would have indicated to *me* as a partner that he wants diamonds led back to him... and given his stack of useless diamonds, that would have fed easy tricks to our opponents. In my playing style, he should have started with the 3 of hearts- letting me know to send Hearts back to him if I got the lead.
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Whitefire

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JCorrado wrote: 
Do long-time Spades players do this?


In a sense. First you want to convert your winners, so any A's, AK duplets or AKQ triplets should be played first. Then you either play in a suit your pard has indicated they want lead, or play a suit that you want run through first.
[Dec 1, 2004 6:03:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bel_pirates

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Whitefire wrote: 
JCorrado wrote: 
Do long-time Spades players do this?


In a sense. First you want to convert your winners, so any A's, AK duplets or AKQ triplets should be played first. Then you either play in a suit your pard has indicated they want lead, or play a suit that you want run through first.


To expand on this, if your partner throws the A of clubs and you have only the KQ in clubs, throw the K since it is the higher card but effectively the same value as the queen. Your partner should see that you threw a high club and lead back to you in clubs, think you are going to trump the suit or have the next highest card in that suit (in this case, the Queen).
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Whitefire

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bel_pirates wrote: 
To expand on this, if your partner throws the A of clubs and you have only the KQ in clubs, throw the K since it is the higher card but effectively the same value as the queen. Your partner should see that you threw a high club and lead back to you in clubs, think you are going to trump the suit or have the next highest card in that suit (in this case, the Queen).


Thats if you don't want bags. If you want to go for a set that is a horrible play.

Whitefire
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[Dec 1, 2004 8:07:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bel_pirates

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Whitefire wrote: 
bel_pirates wrote: 
To expand on this, if your partner throws the A of clubs and you have only the KQ in clubs, throw the K since it is the higher card but effectively the same value as the queen. Your partner should see that you threw a high club and lead back to you in clubs, think you are going to trump the suit or have the next highest card in that suit (in this case, the Queen).


Thats if you don't want bags. If you want to go for a set that is a horrible play.


With no actual hand, this might be impossible to hash out, but how so? I've used this many times and still set people. It's meant more as 1 way of communicating than a general rule for communicating. In the end, using this depends on what your other cards are and what the total bid is.
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Whitefire

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bel_pirates wrote: 
With no actual hand, this might be impossible to hash out, but how so? I've used this many times and still set people. It's meant more as 1 way of communicating than a general rule for communicating. In the end, using this depends on what your other cards are and what the total bid is.


Ah, ok. I thought you were back to Seadog's posts. Yeah, tossing the K on an A usually indicates you want that suit lead again.
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Gloraelin

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i found the score interesting, but mostly i wanted to ask what i should've bid on this hand. i don't remember what exactly i did, but you know, just for future reference.....
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Whitefire

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Gloraelin wrote: 


i found the score interesting, but mostly i wanted to ask what i should've bid on this hand. i don't remember what exactly i did, but you know, just for future reference.....


It depends on your Partner's bid. If she bids 5+ then you should bid 4. If she bids 4 or lower, bid 3.

On the 5+ you can assume a few things:

    ?Your partner has high cards
    ?Your partner has high trump
    ?Your partner has lots to cut[/list:u:7bbebaa6e8]

    When looking at the composition of your hand, We would go with options 2 and 3. You have 1 spade and lots of hearts and diamonds. It is safe to assume that your partner has 5 spades and is short on diamonds and hearts. This lets you convert your Q to a trick, and possibly set your opponent.

    If the bid is 4 or under you can assume your partner has 3-4 spades of varying strength and 1-2 A or K winners to back those up. Since she doesn't have any extra spades, you should bid what you have. The K♣ is a winner, the 10♠ can trump clubs and the A is a winner. You should bid 3 in this case.
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maroon_beard

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JCorrado wrote: 
Okay, here's a question for regular Spades players, based on Seadog's recent post.

As a long-time Bridge player, I'm used to the opening lead (i.e., first card played) being from the strongest suit that that player has- it's an easy way to communicate to partner what suit you want led back to you. (Strongest, in this case, can also mean "what you've got the least of", since being able to consistently trump a suit is pretty darned strong.)


Aye, but leading off an ace is a risky strategy, 90% of the times it has happened I have taken two tricks instead of one, in bridge it is a different situation entirely, ye can see yer partners hand if ye won the bidding, thus meaning there are only 2 hands ye don't know about.
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Nity



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Gloraelin wrote: 


i found the score interesting, but mostly i wanted to ask what i should've bid on this hand. i don't remember what exactly i did, but you know, just for future reference.....


Ida nilled, just to tickle whitefire :)
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Whitefire

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Ida who? And why is she tickling me?
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shagie



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I've done it twice so far (and my partner hasn't gotten upset at me) - is passing a 2 of spades to your partner who bid blind nil a good idea?
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shagie wrote: 
I've done it twice so far (and my partner hasn't gotten upset at me) - is passing a 2 of spades to your partner who bid blind nil a good idea?


It's not a bad idea. But there are possibly better options. A lot depends on your suit distribution and what partner has passed to you. As en example, I'd never give spades back to someone who's given me two spades already, as it implies they really need to shorten their spade suit.
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Whitefire

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Vurogj wrote: 
shagie wrote: 
I've done it twice so far (and my partner hasn't gotten upset at me) - is passing a 2 of spades to your partner who bid blind nil a good idea?


It's not a bad idea. But there are possibly better options. A lot depends on your suit distribution and what partner has passed to you. As en example, I'd never give spades back to someone who's given me two spades already, as it implies they really need to shorten their spade suit.


I heartily disagree. Never pass spades to a Blind Nil. Length in spades is some of the best cover, and that 2♠ is better served tossing on a suit you are short in then giving it to your partner.
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shagie



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Whitefire wrote: 
Vurogj wrote: 
shagie wrote: 
I've done it twice so far (and my partner hasn't gotten upset at me) - is passing a 2 of spades to your partner who bid blind nil a good idea?


It's not a bad idea. But there are possibly better options. A lot depends on your suit distribution and what partner has passed to you. As en example, I'd never give spades back to someone who's given me two spades already, as it implies they really need to shorten their spade suit.


I heartily disagree. Never pass spades to a Blind Nil. Length in spades is some of the best cover, and that 2♠ is better served tossing on a suit you are short in then giving it to your partner.


It does indeed depend a bit on the cards you are given. If you're given a 3 and 4 of spades, then a 2 of spades back would be a bad idea. However, if you get some face card spades or other high cards from other suits, the two of spades could mean an out when the blind nil is has to follow a spade lead. The two of spades is not hard to throw away if so desired and having only the two of spades is not hard to get rid of at all.
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Nity



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shagie wrote: 
Whitefire wrote: 
Vurogj wrote: 
shagie wrote: 
I've done it twice so far (and my partner hasn't gotten upset at me) - is passing a 2 of spades to your partner who bid blind nil a good idea?


It's not a bad idea. But there are possibly better options. A lot depends on your suit distribution and what partner has passed to you. As en example, I'd never give spades back to someone who's given me two spades already, as it implies they really need to shorten their spade suit.


I heartily disagree. Never pass spades to a Blind Nil. Length in spades is some of the best cover, and that 2♠ is better served tossing on a suit you are short in then giving it to your partner.


It does indeed depend a bit on the cards you are given. If you're given a 3 and 4 of spades, then a 2 of spades back would be a bad idea. However, if you get some face card spades or other high cards from other suits, the two of spades could mean an out when the blind nil is has to follow a spade lead. The two of spades is not hard to throw away if so desired and having only the two of spades is not hard to get rid of at all.


You have no idea how many spades your partner has in their hand to begin with. Its the HARDEST 2 in the game to just toss away like nothing, that 2 of spades could be the one card to set your partner.

If your partner passes you high cards from another suit, they are likely looking for cover in that suit, the LAST thing you want to do is add to their spade load, *UNLESS* you have at LEAST 4 spades in your hand after passing that 2, to cover a possible 4 spades your partner has. If you dont have at least 4 spades after a pass of the 2, I wouldnt even consider passing the two. I would rather take 4 bags to cover my partner than pass the lousy 2 that could set the BN
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Whitefire

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[Insert what Nity said]

In addition, there is no reason to pass a spade. Never ever, for no reason whatsoever. I can't even imagine a condition that would warrant it. When you cover you want tricks. Bags are a fine trade off for having a BN make their bid.
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shagie



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So, your partner is blind/nil and at North. Starts with a bunch of high spades and passes you the A/K (keeping them is suicide for a blind nil). You pass back two low plain cards. Some play has gone, and spades has been broken. East leads a 3 of spades.

Now, granted, probably the best thing to do is make certain that you always play a higher spade than your parter. But sometimes, your partner is longer in spades than you are.

My belief is that when playing a blind nil, a two of any suit is helpful. I have difficulty picturing a round where it is impossible to get rid of a two of spades without taking the trick. It is quite possible to picture a round where you are stuck with a mid spade that forces you to take a trick when spades is lead. Having the two of spades provides you with an extra out.
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While a two of spades isn't of itself a game-ruiner, there's two important things to keep in mind:

1) Passing the 2 increases their length in spades and therefore the likelyhood that they will trump somebody or win a round of spades- it may be a good idea to pass if you have a very good run of spades yourself, however.
2) They can probably get rid of anything up to a 10 in any other suit much more easily than the 2♠- especially when you consider that the ONLY way for them to lose with the 2♠ is if you play a higher ♠, wheras in other suits you can trump them if you're short.
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Whitefire

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2♠ > Any non-spade.

The 2 of spades is stronger than an A of any suit but spades. More importantly, that 2♠ can be played when a partner is void in spades to let them sluff whatever they want. There is always a beter pass than a 2♠. Show me a hand and I can pick it out for you =P.
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Crystallina

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EDIT: ok, so that wasn't what they were talking about. oh well. So on topic:

Passing spades on a blind nil = bad idea. When you're dealing with any nil, and especially a blind, you want to play high. You want to have your partner covered at all times, with as great a margin as possible, leaving little to no room for suspense or surprises. That's in a perfect hand.

The only time you'd pass a spade on a nil is if your nil partner is completely out of spades. This gives them a chance to kill any remaining high cards they may still have in their hand.
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And now, a few tips about blind nil card exchanges. These are just my opinions, feel free to disagree.

NILLER:

This is all about priorities. It is rare to get a perfect hand on blind nil. There are almost always problem spots, and almost always more than you can solve by trading away just two cards. So you have to get your priorities straight.

First, if you have the ace, king, queen, or jack of spades, get rid of it. This is your first priority - usually. Ace and king are always first priority. Queen is almost always first. Jack is first unless there is something EXTREMELY bad in your other suits. It also depends on the number and rank of your other spades. This works best with examples (all of the following are for the spade suit).

A/anything: Get rid of the ace. Guaranteed trick taker. If you do not get rid of this, you are committing suicide.
K/anything: Get rid of it. The chances are too high that the ace will appear without you having a chance to toss the King.
K/Q/anything: Get rid of them both. When you have runs like this it's doubly bad.
J/9/8 - Get rid of the Jack, in most cases. If the rest of your hand is horrible, you are a very unlucky person. Use your discretion.
10/3/2 - See the next section. If you don't find any unsupported high cards, toss it. If you do, take care of the unsupported high cards first.

Next, look for unsupported high cards in your other suits. By unsupported, I mean high cards that are not propped up by low cards, i.e. a single ace or a king and queen with only one low card below it. This is your second priority. Examples:

A - Get rid of it. If anyone leads that suit you are dead unless your partner has absolutely no cards in that suit. And since there's already one low imbalance, this is highly unlikely.

A/10 - Get rid of the ace. If your partner is playing right, he will lead the ace, you can throw your 10, and you'll have a void suit to work with.

A/8/7/4/3/2 - This is not a priority. By the time all your low cards are up you'll either have a void or have other players playing spades on this hand.

Usually you'll have come up with your two cards by now. If not, you are profoundly lucky. If you do happen to have no high spades and no unsupported high cards, just get rid of the highest card in your shortest suit.

NILLER'S PARTNER:

Look at what your partner traded you. This should give you some idea of his/her problem spots. You are not as rigid on what you should trade back but there are guidelines.

- Never trade a spade. Not even the 2. You want your partner to have as little spades as possible.

- Trade low cards of different suits. You ideally want your partner to have a void, and you don't want to supplement just one suit and leave him with trouble in another.

/e yawns and hopes she didn't make any glaring errors
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Rapmasta26, in a surprisingly accurate assessment of many posters' attitude towards things:

 
PLEASE PEOPLE, IF YOU DONT AGREE DONT REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Crystallina at Dec 3, 2004 5:41:42 PM]
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manaweb



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Crystallina wrote: 
A/anything: Get rid of the ace. Guaranteed trick taker. If you do not get rid of this, you are committing suicide.
K/anything: Get rid of it. The chances are too high that the ace will appear without you having a chance to toss the King.
K/Q/anything: Get rid of them both. When you have runs like this it's doubly bad.
J/9/8 - Get rid of the Jack, in most cases. If the rest of your hand is horrible, you are a very unlucky person. Use your discretion.
10/3/2 - See the next section. If you don't find any unsupported high cards, toss it. If you do, take care of the unsupported high cards first.


I agree with mostly what your saying Crystallina but I have a few minor modifications.

Nil Player

A/Anything - Try and palm these off to your partner but look before you do. If you have more than 5 cards in the Ace suit it maybe better to rid higer other suit cards and short yourself a suit instead. Aces are playable in a nil hand, not complete suicide. (Barrenmore thinks now what was it they said about the Black Ship)

K/Anything - same as the Ace but you have a few more outs here. Try and rid yourself of them, If you have the Ace of the same suit as well pass the Ace and keep the King (as long as the other cards in suit are reasonable), then try and off suit somewhere or pass another suit high card or spade.

K/Q - I would be likely to only pass the King here and try and off suit or pass a spade. The Queen is easily gotten rid of, tart looking for off suits.

J and below - Rarely these win tricks. I would be more inclined to off suit or pass away my spades.

Nil Partner

Totally agree with you here Crystallina.

Never trade back a Spade

Look at the cards you are given. If they are same suit don't give that suit back. Obviously shorting himself. (I had a player give me back the same card because it was one of his lowest, Please look and work out why your partner passed a 7 of Clubs and an Ace of clubs. Do you take a hint?) otherwise different suits give him back your lowest 2.
Try and short suit yourself if possible
Bid up a little more, you will have better chances to get tricks cheaply and your partner is going to pass you at least 1 winner.
Don't ever lead low. I will say it again, Don't ever lead low - lead to win.

Hope this helps some of you out.

Barrenmore wonders when he will get his Broad rating as he has nearly played 50 more games since turning Narrow.
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My mana is srinking.
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bel_pirates

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[Brief Derail]

Am I wrong to consider talking about your bid in the game channel before bidding cheating? For example:

 
Bidding starts at West.
East says, "ooo! Nil!"
West bids.
South bids.
East bids.
North bids.


Or:

 
Bidding starts at West.
West bids.
South bids.
East says, "I might be able to go Nil. Should I try?"
West says, "yes" or "no"
East bids.
North bids.


Scenario 1 just happened to me in a game and all three people thought I was nuts for calling that cheating. East even suggested that the ringers condone that in the rules.

With apologies to WF for derailing his thread,
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Belgarion
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[Dec 4, 2004 5:10:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nity



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Re: Spades-palooza [Dial-up Warning. Many images within.] Reply to this Post
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bel_pirates wrote: 
[Brief Derail]

Am I wrong to consider talking about your bid in the game channel before bidding cheating? For example:

 
Bidding starts at West.
East says, "ooo! Nil!"
West bids.
South bids.
East bids.
North bids.


Or:

 
Bidding starts at West.
West bids.
South bids.
East says, "I might be able to go Nil. Should I try?"
West says, "yes" or "no"
East bids.
North bids.


Scenario 1 just happened to me in a game and all three people thought I was nuts for calling that cheating. East even suggested that the ringers condone that in the rules.

With apologies to WF for derailing his thread,


I'd consider that table talking and just refuse to play with them again. All you can do is play and learn :D

Not much they can really do about it :-/
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Tawnee says, "What freak would sig Shur?"
~Nity~
[Dec 4, 2004 6:00:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    nitymuds    seekingcerenity [Link]  Go to top 
Nity



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On blind nilling...


What I look at first is my spades. If I have a/k the ace will def go first.

When I look at my other suits, I tend to look for a short suit. If i only have 1 club, the club goes, no matter which one it is. That way on the first toss of clubs i can start throwing and my partner can keep feeding me that suit as needed. It's always nice to have a BN be void in a suit, not only does it give something for the Bn to toss on, but if need be, can also help avoid too many bags because its safe for the non BN player to throw 2s and 4s of the void suit
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Tawnee says, "What freak would sig Shur?"
~Nity~
[Dec 4, 2004 6:03:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    nitymuds    seekingcerenity [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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Yeah, ummm, such tabletalking is only cool if everyone at the table agrees they are okay with it. Personally I'd rather just play a quiet game.
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