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rissarissa13

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slow distill puzzle down in practice session Reply to this Post
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not sure how this will go over with people, but i understand the concept of the whole distill process and everything but my problem is about it being too fast. I was thinking maybe they can do like a "practice" session, such a foraging "practice" session. expect make it slower so people can actually learn. cause its really hard to find people who can do expert labor in distill, which makes it hard to make rum and will therefore make the price of rum higher.

i dunno just an idea. :P thought i'll stick it out there<3
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Aug 21, 2009 12:41:11 PM]
[Jun 19, 2009 10:30:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Burnt_Water

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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It's a good way to train people, much like the other crafting puzzles. But the distilling union has too much control. We won't ever see this implemented because it would cut into their monopoly.
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[Jun 19, 2009 10:34:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Bored en route? Bring a book or puzzle next time. [Link]  Go to top 
Harlech

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Has anyone confirmed that the furnace interval is the same from machine to machine? It's a test I've been wanting to try for a while, but I haven't yet gotten around to it. I was hoping it could explain why I'm so flippin' hopeless at it.
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[Jun 19, 2009 10:48:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
abacadafa

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Has anyone confirmed that the furnace interval is the same from machine to machine? It's a test I've been wanting to try for a while, but I haven't yet gotten around to it. I was hoping it could explain why I'm so flippin' hopeless at it.


It probably is the same timing. However, the handling of pieces is much smoother on a good computer than it is on a bad computer.
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[Jun 20, 2009 2:39:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
GreatBob

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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The only way this could work would be if the "slow" puzzle sessions were unrated. While most high end distillers aren't harmed by the issue of not being able to move all of their final whites across, it would allow mid-range distillers to score much higher then they could already, ruining the scoring curve even more.

I'm all for more people learning how to distil, as it would even out the curve and hopefully make the ultimate list a bit longer.
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[Jun 21, 2009 4:26:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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You could score the slower sessions at lower point values, just like the lower levels of shipwright or bilge, or IM ...
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[Jun 21, 2009 9:39:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://StrictConstitution.BlogSpot.Com [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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The other active distilling thread includes this suggestion.

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=121399
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[Jun 21, 2009 9:44:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
madzack2918

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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not sure how this will go over with people, but i understand the concept of the whole distill process and everything but my problem is about it being too fast. I was thinking maybe they can do like a "practice" session, such a foraging "practice" session. expect make it slower so people can actually learn. cause its really hard to find people who can do expert labor in distill, which makes it hard to make rum and will therefore make the price of rum higher.

i dunno just an idea. :P thought i'll stick it out there<3

You can pratice distilling at Dachimpy's website.
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[Jun 21, 2009 10:10:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Contrariety

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Just tested this on two computers, the speed the columns go up is the same, but the animations speed makes an average difference of about 4 CC columns per session for me.
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[Jun 23, 2009 10:27:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Perlandria

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Just tested this on two computers, the speed the columns go up is the same, but the animations speed makes an average difference of about 4 CC columns per session for me.

Between computer speed on the animation and various mice being better or worst for distilling than others, yes this is consistent in effect with my experience. Animation speed is a problem on older systems for me in distilling, AND rumble, AND foraging, AND rigging. Really, I wish there were more ways to limit animation by choice and enjoy the pretty on the fast machines and enjoy not having my sail turn blue while the board switches stars on the slow.
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Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
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[Jun 23, 2009 10:39:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Irig    Perlandria [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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There's always been a desire for a way to make distilling more entry-level friendly. Two things that might do it are adding an Undo button for Able and Distinguished only, and having a timer for the burns that slowly decreases as your ranking rises.
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[Jun 23, 2009 1:00:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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You can pratice distilling at Dachimpy's website.

Wow, I had not seen that before, and I encourage people to try it out! It is great!

I have always liked distilling, even though I've never played it that much (mostly free days in hearty's shops), I've never gotten very good at it and parts of it I've found incredibly frustrating.

Before I found this simulator, the best I've *ever* done was a cc^4 or maybe a cc^3. After using that simulator a bit, my very first try in YPP gave me a cc^4+cc^4 and a *GOOD*, providing *SKILLED* labor! Woot!

OK, now here is a very damning thing: I found the simulator to be much more fun to play than the real puzzle. That should never happen.

Having now used the simulator, I really really strongly recommend:

* Adding a star system to distilling.

* At 3-stars, distilling should take maybe a minute per burn and have no spice. Yes, seriously, a minute per burn to start with.

* As more stars are added, the time should go down and at some point, spice should be added (5 stars?).

* Scoring at these lower star levels should, of course, be much much less than at higher levels.

* If you right click or hit 'x' or whatever to burn stuff, that should help your score slightly. I think the key for scoring should be the *MAXIMUM* amount of time you take between burns. If you make sure all rows get burned in the same amount of time as you would at full speed, then your scoring should be the same. That should let ultimate distillers level up quickly.

Seriously, after playing with the simulator some, I now see just how important this change is for new puzzlers.


Edit: /me fails to read both pages... I used to think an "undo" button would be very helpful, but having played with the simulator, I no longer think it is as critical. Yeah, it is easy to get stuck, but I think the time pressure is much more critical and easier to change. I can't think of any other puzzle that has something extra only at lower levels, most of the puzzles just add things that make it harder/more complicated as the star levels go up.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Jun 24, 2009 7:14:45 AM]
[Jun 24, 2009 7:05:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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OK, I've now played the simulator far more than I've ever played the real puzzle. It is, indeed, a fun puzzle once you get the hang of it.

Based on my experiences, I would also recommend that not only should lower star-levels be much much slower, but there should probably be fewer columns needed before the game ends so that the length of the puzzle isn't too long. Maybe start with 6 required columns.

Again, if you are able to do a cc^14 or whatever, you should still be able to do that with fewer required columns, just like you can do it now with 12 required columns.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Jun 25, 2009 7:57:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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These all came up in the previous distilling threads. They're still needed improvements.

I agree about the simulator. I'm going to start sending people there.
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[Jun 25, 2009 12:45:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fjandr

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Again, if you are able to do a cc^14 or whatever, you should still be able to do that with fewer required columns, just like you can do it now with 12 required columns.

It would actually reduce the number of total possible CCs sent up by quite a bit, but given the need to ease the introduction into the puzzle that's a perfectly acceptable tradeoff to me. There are introductory levels in other puzzles that limit your top score until you have a decent rank, and I don't think there would be much complaint if distilling were changed in that manner.

I would be fine if either the height of the columns or the number of colums shown were reduced, depending on which (if either) is easier to accomplish. Slowing down the burn rate or even allowing it to be manually burnt, in the beginning levels, would also be good changes to not scare away or frustrate new players.
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[Jun 25, 2009 6:06:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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You can pratice distilling at Dachimpy's website.


I love this!

EDIT: Can it please give us a CC count?
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by BehindCurtai at Jun 28, 2009 5:42:57 PM]
[Jun 28, 2009 5:42:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://StrictConstitution.BlogSpot.Com [Link]  Go to top 
Cymsdale



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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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I personally would love to see a huge revamp of the distilling puzzle. When I left the game two years ago, one of the biggest complaints I had was with this puzzle, and when I returned, I was distressed to find that nothing had been changed in the slightest.

It is my opinion that this puzzle in particular does not follow the same type of spirit in scoring of most other puzzles for the following reasons:
* The perfect solution is not a puzzle - get 12 full clears in a row. Other puzzles often involve working out the 'best' option for the board given to you, and yes sometimes luck will work against you and that's OK - this helps to smooth out the scoring curve.
* It relies on reflexes and twitch far more than any other puzzle, this causes a huge discrepancy in ability for people with alternate input devices.
* There is not much variety. No special pieces, and nothing new is opened up as people learn the puzzle.

Here are some suggestions I would offer for a complete puzzle overhaul. I am not suggesting that all of these would have to be implemented together, perhaps a mix of them would do.

1) Slow the puzzle down! The difficulty should come in the choices people have to make, not in how fast their reflexes are. I have no problem with not allowing the player to take 'forever', but it should be more along the speed of shipweightery or perhaps a move-per-burn limit similar to alchemy. If you make the puzzle interesting enough, you could get away with not having a time limit at all by including some of the suggestions below.

2) Raise the bar for the 'perfect' solution about a mile. Puzzles are much more interesting when there is always room to improve. One thing you could do is add the concept of furnace 'heat' to the puzzle, so that every time you burn a column, the heat lowers some %, and your score for each column is based on the current heat as it goes up. Now the perfect is not getting 12 in a row, it's getting 12 in row as early as possible. The scoring might even work out such that getting a smaller group right away is more worthwhile than postponing too long for an overly large one (kinda like rigging and bilging).

3) I think having more variety of special pieces could make the puzzle much more interesting than it is. Right now, we have spice, which apparently lower and raise your score a bit depending on which direction they go, but largely are just there to get in the way. Perhaps having a list of special spice type pieces with different effects like the wilds in rigging would be more interesting (introduced over time as the player learns the puzzle).
* A piece that will cool the furnace further if you burn it, and give a score bonus if you send it up, essentially creates a row that is much more critical to include in a clear group. This is not really much different than the current spice piece, but provides a larger (and more obvious) impact on the score. You could even have the inverse, a piece that you would want to make sure you burn to help fire up the furnace more.
* A piece that purifies the ones around it when it is clicked, so there is some strategy in making the most use out of this piece by shifting browns and blacks toward it. Perhaps the option to not use the piece at all can create a bonus to the score if you send it up
* Alternate types of movement, such as a stationary piece that causes all surrounding pieces to rotate around it when clicked. Or one that acts like the dreaded monkey piece from foraging and randomizes the ones around it. Could act as a clear in the final row.

Anyways, I hope you will consider my ideas and take another look at this puzzle.
[Jul 21, 2009 8:09:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
false_dmitri

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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Slowing it down for everyone would raise the bar even higher, since more would be able to submit perfect chains. However, your other suggestions work to counter that.
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[Jul 21, 2009 11:39:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aenor

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Re: slow distill puzzle down? xD Reply to this Post
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In theory, it sounds like a good idea to introduce new special types of pieces to distilling. But I don't think that your ideas really add much strategic depth, because it won't take much experimenting to figure out what the best scoring way to use the pieces is, and then we're just back to square one.

A change to distilling I'd like to see is Ultra-Distilling. Rig the random number generator so that the distribution of the colors of the pieces in every new row is inversely proportional to the quantity of those pieces currently on the board. It would make distilling harder for the best of the best, because filling the screen with whites will take a lot longer, and as you start sending up rows of whites you won't start generating a significant number of new whites until you've got a wide field of blacks and browns to navigate through.

However, the best of the best of the best would find their scores go up even higher. Right now, anything beyond cc13 or so is just luck, but tghis would make it more skill-based. Really fast distillers that can bring 7-8 whites from left to right in one cycle could get huge CCs.

Beginners would probably not even notice the change, and I think it would make the game easier for the intermediates who tend to make cc4-cc8.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Aenor at Jul 21, 2009 12:25:06 PM]
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