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RobertDonald

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Battle Nav Reply to this Post
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I have been asked many a time to give my thoughts on Battle Nav. I'll get around to it now. I'd like to get down my thoughts in advance before I create a close to truly optimal battle nav AI and see how it actually plays.


My best advice, for those who want to be truly great at Nav, is to go out and PvP people. If you're good at sailing and gunning you can do it yourself, or you can grab a friend and just go attack people. Once you are good at PvP, you will be able to adapt to any brigand nav, even if they radically change the AI in future. This post will focus on player versus player battle navigation at a high level.


1) Rock, Paper, Scissors (RPS)

At any given time, you may have many good options. If you always pick the same option every time, however, you will lose. Battle nav is a simultaneous play game. You can see it as a game of outguessing your opponent, or as a game of mixing up your strategies so that YOU cannot be outguessed.

In rock paper scissors, the optimal strategy is to randomly do each a third of the time so that no opponent can gain an advantage by figuring out your non-existent pattern. Battle nav is a mixup game. In a given situation there will be more than one dominating moveset, and randomly selecting between those in the right proportion is optimal RPSing.


2) Guess, second-guess, triple-guess.

A nice approximation to optimal RPS is the guess, second guess, triple guess model. The stuff you get out of this isn't always the dominating strategies, but it provides a good framework in your mind for figuring out what they are.

Guess: Suppose he stands still. What would my best moveset be?

Second-guess: Suppose he thinks I'm standing still. What would his best moveset be? How do I counter that?

Triple-guess: Suppose I do as suggested by "guess." What would his best move be? How do I counter that moveset?

I'll note that going beyond quadruple-guessing is generally pointless.


3) Checkmating.

The above deals with how you think about a single turn. But it's equally important to worry about where you end up. Some relative positions give you an advantage, some give you a disadvantage. Around rocks and currents some can put you in a place where you have only one possible way to get out-- easily exploited to kill you.

When you're up on shots in an equally manned PvP, a large theme is to force a grapple. Here's an example of an absolutely forced grapple, a position you'd love to end the turn in if you were significantly up on shots:


...
><.
...



Here's a RPS checkmate. Note that one player has many options which give him the advantage, while the other player can merely hope and pray he guesses right to get out without a substantial disadvantage. If the player on the left is in the larger ship (for example, war brig vs cutter as often seen in blockades) then he pretty much kills the other:


>..
...
.^.


In multiship situations in blockades, checkmating becomes even more dynamic and important.


4) "Safe" moves vs. Positional Play

A general policy used by many navvers who follow the runaway or reactionary philosophy in ocean PvP is to only pick moves in which they cannot be put at disadvantage, i.e. they either trade shots, or their opponents walk into their guns. This is a often a wise policy, but remember when you're doing it that if you are too predictable, your opponent may simply take a path that, while it doesn't get up on shots THIS turn, checkmates you next turn. Optimal RPSing means you have to weigh what can happen to you later. Thinking more than a couple turns ahead is usually quite pointless in ocean PvP, however.


5) Outtokening.

When you have put a significant number of shots into someone, often their bilge starts filling up and they start getting less tokens. You want to exploit their low token generation to get even more free shots on them, hopefully maxing them and putting them dead in the water. A general policy here is to get a couple spaces behind and shoot safely. But it can also be peppered with "well, he may move once, I'll safe-shoot the places he could move to," and other guesses.


6) The white bar.

The white bar above a ship shows how many moves it is going to do, as of the present moment. At the highest level of play, it is entirely worthless.

At the highest level of OCL competition, you have gunners that can load 4 guns every turn. One can simply shoot any move where no token is entered, and display a full bar every time. Thus no information is given. This is even more true on the fully manned brigs and frigs you see in blockade nav.

Even in solo PvP, simply doing a mixup between adding tokens at the last second, taking down tokens at the last second, taking down tokens then adding them back at the last second, and leaving your tokens as is... is sufficient to nullify the information gained from the white bar.


7) Shoot more.

Any time you could have hit the guy and chose not to shoot, that's almost like shooting yourself in the face. If your gunners can handle it, always shoot if you can hit something.

There is actually a very simple way to judge if someone is good at blockade nav, at least for well manned ships. If they ever fail to shoot when they could have hit an enemy, they are either utterly sucking or out of cannonballs. The best navigators always shoot if they could hit an opponent. Cannonballs are cheap, being sunk in a blockade because you don't know how to shoot is not cheap at all. Hint: just click the cannons.
----------------------------------------
Quizzical wrote: 
If winners and losers are arbitrarily chosen by ringers or OM's, then it is no longer even a game. It's just clicking random buttons hoping to be arbitrarily chosen, which becomes stupid really fast.

[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
RobertDonald

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Appendices: A. Brigand Nav B. Solo PvP Reply to this Post
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Now here's the part that most people will be interested in: how to beat brigands. I'd advise you all not to skip to this section, because it may become obselete at any time. Typically, brigand nav is just a matter of running away while shooting.
----

Appendix A: Current Anti-Brigand Nav


Brigands follow the same rules as us. They start the round with 2/4/2 tokens, and generate tokens. Shooting them full of holes slows down their token generation.

Brigands read your moves in advance and figure out what they're going to do. The white bar above their heads shows you how many moves they've decided to do in reply. If 3/4th of the bar is filled, then they will move, shoot, or both, on three out of four of their moves. If it's empty, then they're going to sit still, dead in the water.


A conversation on anti-brigand nav today:

Robertdonald says, "well it's really simple, I'll just say it in chat and post the log"
Robertdonald says, "blah blah blah about brigands playing by the same rules, generating tokens, starting with 2/4/2 tokens, slowing down token generation when they get shot"
Robertdonald says, "brigands sail directly for your broadside getting shot... especially around rocks"
Robertdonald says, "that is, if they are facing you and you have your cannons toward them"
Robertdonald says, "they will walk right into your cannons"

Robertdonald says, "you can also trap brigands in rocks, because brigands don't think ahead"
Robertdonald says, "even a small rock trap like"
.R.
R..
.R.

Robertdonald says, "a brigand to the right of it can get caught walking into the gap in the rocks, if you're on the other side of it."
Robertdonald says, "once it does, it's stuck forever."
Captnmorgan says, "Sometimes they will run forward into the rocks too, hah"

Robertdonald says, "another comment on the brigands sailing right for your broadside"
Robertdonald says, "sometimes you can pull S-loops in front of a brigand so it never reaches you while you shoot it"
Robertdonald says, "oh you're two spaces away? left left gun gun gun"
Captnmorgan says, "I always love when they stay with wind currents in a line of 2 or more behind their back"
Robertdonald says, "oh you moved forward two more? I'l do it again!"

Robertdonald says, "when a brigand is dead in the water, you want to shoot it safely"
Robertdonald says, "so you maneuver behind it"
Robertdonald says, "then shoot"
Robertdonald says, "no way it can get to you when you're behind it"
EDIT: Also note that brigands often stop moving once you get behind them and start shooting, simply because their AI can't figure out a way to get to you. Getting behind and shooting is one of the most important parts of nav.
Robertdonald says, "and if it runs it only takes a few tokens to get behind it some more"

Robertdonald says, "now, last seconding"
Robertdonald says, "brigands occasionally change their move at the last millisecond to prevent people from exploiting this consistently, but once you've run them out of their initial tokens it's fairly safe to do"
Robertdonald says, "the white bar above a brigand's head shows how many moves it will make. if it's empty, guess what, it's not moving"
Robertdonald says, "so you put it some tokens to get into position a bit in front of it or behind it then unload your cannons on it"
Robertdonald says, "you do this at the last second"
Robertdonald says, "so it won't change its tokens and move"
Captnmorgan flag officer chats, "Later all, I'm going to take a nap"
Robertdonald says, "some navigators, such as maxdemian, use this technique purely. it's quite effective but it can get you grappled if you're too gung-ho and venture too close to the brigand"

Robertdonald says, "generally, you like positions where the brigand can't get into any position that he can shoot you... only in a position where he can walk into your guns"
Robertdonald says, "(crappy ascii diagrams of positions like this)"
YOU ^....
.....
...>. BRIGAND.


YOU ^....< BRIGAND


and best of all...

BRIGAND
.^.
...
...
.>.
YOU


Robertdonald says, "then you just shoot and hope he walks into them."
Robertdonald says, "good enough?"
Manipulator says, "most of the time you aim for positions"
Manipulator says, "where you shoot it from behind"
Manipulator says, "should this be the general focus of a learning naver?"
Robertdonald says, "well yes, it's the first thing they need to learn"

Robertdonald says, "another note on the last second exploit. you can change your tokens until you get a set which causes them to sit dead in the water"
Robertdonald says, "then last second them for the shots"
Manipulator says, "i see"
Manipulator says, "ok that's good for now."
Manipulator says, "nice info."


Links to past information about brigands. (Some of it now untrue due to AI changes):

http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=8957
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=132414&highlight=#132414
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=139494&highlight=#139494
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=8593



Appendix B: Solo PvP

While the main post deals with the general theory of PvP navigation, this appendix will deal with the specific concerns of Solo PvP.

1) Swabbie placement.

When you hit battle, you will usually have one swabbie on sails, one on carp, and one on bilge. Putting two swabbies on sails gets the exact same result as putting one swabbie on sails: one token generated per turn with no bilge.

2) Swords and Swabbies.

RobertDonald wrote: 
Q. What set of swords is the best for PvP Sea Battle and Team Brawl?

It is important to use compatible weapons.
There are two criteria for compatibility:
1) Different color on the sides.
2) Different color in the center.


You can swordfight with each swabbie (unrated of course!) to determine their sword, and look up the pattern using Weaver's utility. Hire and fire swabbies till you get three compatible with you and each other. This gives a substantial advantage in the swordfight.

3) Sail and Gun.

At any given point in the battle you will either be sailing or gunning. One exception is when you're far enough away that you can safely carp, you are damaged, your guns are already loaded, and you have tokens. Another is when you are so damaged it's critical you don't let full bilge happen.

Just a swabbie will get you one sailing token per turn. If you're in a situation where you need more in order not to die, you have to sail, even if your guns are not loaded. Sail, get some tokens to run away, and load your guns. There is a large emphasis on building up enough tokens sailing so that when you do fight, you will be able to concentrate somewhat on loading guns and shooting a lot rather than generating more tokens.

4) Grapple when up; run when down.

You may get into a situation where you don't have enough cannons loaded to shoot as much as you could hit. If you're up on shots, put up a grapple rather than nothing. It's painful to miss a grapple then have your opponent eventually max you back, and delightful to score an early psychic grapple when up on shots.

5) Max-max.

Max damage for a sloop is 6 small shots. A ram does half as much as a small cannonball. When you're maxed, you try to max your opponent. Trading shots is fine. When your opponent is maxed, you try to grapple him (and shoot him to slow him down for an eventual grapple) without trading shots excessively, thus avoiding being maxed back.
----------------------------------------
Quizzical wrote: 
If winners and losers are arbitrarily chosen by ringers or OM's, then it is no longer even a game. It's just clicking random buttons hoping to be arbitrarily chosen, which becomes stupid really fast.

----------------------------------------
[Edit 5 times, last edit by RobertDonald at Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM]
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chewyshoe

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Nice post rd :). *Although I'd still like some anti-brigand tips in-game if you ever get time.

[size=9]*This part was posted after robertdonald's second part was posted (Although obivously he clicked submit first)
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Funny exam answers | Free online contests
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azleaneo

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This is a perfect shot of the rock exploit. This was early in the battle, so they hit themselves a few times getting out, but if this was late in the battle (few shots on them, approaching/are dead in the water) they would stay like that until boarded

Edit: Fixed lifesize image to be forum friendly
----------------------------------------
Translation = "Broken Heart",
Kokorobosoi Midnight Ocean Refugee
Cerulean Ocean
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by azleaneo at Nov 12, 2004 5:25:41 PM]
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54x

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Pretty good. I think you should post the "exploit the AI as it is at the moment" stuff seperately though, so that you just have a thread on the mechanics of navving, rather than teaching people to rely on crutches. (At the moment, I'm thinking I'm actually not going to ?berthread anything that has "crutches" in it, rather than relating to general technique. That's pretty much all that's keeping this thread from linkage)

Also, there's something to be said for conserving shot. Lining the oceans with iron because you miss all the time is bad... but failing to hit 3/4 is even worse. (especially if you really need the hits) You need to hit a balance based on the amount of cannonballs you have, but that's really beyond a thread based purely on the battle navigation puzzle and is more about officering.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Nov 12, 2004 8:20:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
RobertDonald

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There is nothing to be said for conserving shot. Gunners like Lovelytini will make sure you never run out of cannon tokens, and it's easy enough to make sure you have enough in the hold before you enter the blockade or PvP.

If I see a navigator ever mention anything about conserving shot, I will not ever, ever, ever let him navigate for me in a blockade. EVER. If you think you should conserve shot, you suck. Period. The way I know, for example, that Maxdemian is such a spectacular navigator, is that he can go through more than 300 medium shots in a round (while succeeding against the manpower odds and scoring a massive number of sinks.)

I wasn't planning to make replies on this post, but this point is so incredibly important it bears repeating again and again.
----------------------------------------
Quizzical wrote: 
If winners and losers are arbitrarily chosen by ringers or OM's, then it is no longer even a game. It's just clicking random buttons hoping to be arbitrarily chosen, which becomes stupid really fast.

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AngryChair



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That's true, but not everyone has top 10 gunners at their disposal.
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the raining only starts when you go away

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VPeric

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So its more like if you can get tokens, shoot?

Anyway, I think this is a great guide.. I might finally get better at bnaving. ;D
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Wlada, Former King of Bloody Hell and former Captain of Sudden Death, Cobalt.
Vlada, Officer of the Rudder Royals, Azure.
[Nov 13, 2004 12:31:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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RobertDonald wrote: 
There is nothing to be said for conserving shot. Gunners like Lovelytini will make sure you never run out of cannon tokens, and it's easy enough to make sure you have enough in the hold before you enter the blockade or PvP.


Blockade or PvP, sure. When you're up against brigands, you're trying to be cost-effective. If you end up sinking too much cannon and not getting any result from it while you're learning, that's quite obviously a bad thing.

RobertDonald wrote: 
If I see a navigator ever mention anything about conserving shot, I will not ever, ever, ever let him navigate for me in a blockade. EVER. If you think you should conserve shot, you suck. Period. The way I know, for example, that Maxdemian is such a spectacular navigator, is that he can go through more than 300 medium shots in a round (while succeeding against the manpower odds and scoring a massive number of sinks.)

I wasn't planning to make replies on this post, but this point is so incredibly important it bears repeating again and again.


Good navigators know when not to engage and how to work the flags, too- although that said, most of your blockades haven't really focused on flags, so I can understand your focus on hitting/sinking. Wrong thread for the discussion, really: that type of blockade nav is much more like evading.

Besides, bankrupting yourself by firing off twice as much shot as is nessecary, or running out mid-round, IS a bad thing. You need to nav appropriately to your supplies and/or supply appropriately to your nav.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Nov 13, 2004 12:37:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
RobertDonald

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/me notes an unknown lecturing the navver of half the top ten sea battle list about brigand nav, and says nothing.
----------------------------------------
Quizzical wrote: 
If winners and losers are arbitrarily chosen by ringers or OM's, then it is no longer even a game. It's just clicking random buttons hoping to be arbitrarily chosen, which becomes stupid really fast.

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Lizthegrey
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I suppose it depends which level of play you're engaging in. When it's 1k per person payout in a ship full of Ult SB's, I'd feel comfortable shooting every turn, because I KNOW the crew cut will cover it. When I'm training new officers who are Master and below, and payout is about 200 per person, I teach conservation of shot since otherwise the voyage runs at a major loss, even if we win every single battle. I also frequently take greenies on training sails; again, shooting only when I'm certain of a hit, because otherwise it really hurts my pocketbook.

RD is giving battle instruction tips for high-level play.

Also, strategy for navving a brig and above in blockade is very different from running a cutter. Whenever I nav a cutter in a blockade, my goals are (in order of importance) 1.) stay out of the line of fire, 2.) camp as many flag points as possible, and 3.) shoot an enemy (not that small shot does anything to a brig except in large numbers)
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Lizthegrey
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Right, that reminds me, I have some free time today. I think I'll go add collisions to Skirmish! and see if we (RD and I) can get a decent sim of battle nav going. That reminds me, would anyone like to join me at Gaea and test 3-ship collision rules during the bumper sloop round?
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MaxDemian



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54x wrote: 
Blockade or PvP, sure. When you're up against brigands, you're trying to be cost-effective. If you end up sinking too much cannon and not getting any result from it while you're learning, that's quite obviously a bad thing.


Against brigands its not so much a worry. With how utterly predictable they are, very few shots are going to miss. PvPwise, i'm never PvPing for the goods, im doing it for the win & I will use as many balls as I have to. Then for blockades, the cost of balls is nothing to the cost of ships you can lose by not shooting, and if that agressiveness helps you win that island, I would say the cost is more than worth it.
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Shuranthae

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I agree with DB, if you're going to give advice to the general audience you shouldn't assume they have elite gunners or crew. True for brigands, pvp, and blockades. If you have poor Gunners/Puzzlers (and don't have the cash or connections to buy good ones), then you have to conserve shot and tokens somewhat.

And brigands can get out of those rock traps, it depends on a few things (though I definitely agree they are easy to steer them into under the right situations). The trick to Naving against brigands is to simply accept that they can read all your moves and Nav like you would against someone who can do exactly that (though isn't too bright).

All in all, good suggestions but it's more upper level stuff than anything you can write in a beginner's tutorial. A lot of people will read all that and still not have much of a clue because they still haven't gotten beyond recognizing (in a timely fashoin) what good moves actually are, and which ones are available to them in any given situation. Best way to learn is to practice and learn how to watch Battles while puzzling.
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54x

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RobertDonald wrote: 
/me notes an unknown lecturing the navver of half the top ten sea battle list about brigand nav, and says nothing.


Oh please. You have no idea how good or bad my battle nav skill is, but it's perfectly possible that even if I were the worst battle navver in the ocean that I'd still point out something you'd missed. Egotism belongs in Parley, not here. Besides, your sea battle rating doesn't really reflect very much very accurately.

And I think you're just assuming a different audience than me. Posting this sort of guide for people already at the top end is kinda worthless. They either know these tricks or have been using them via instinct already. Other people will need a much more careful explaination. You can think of me as being on the Top Ten tutorial makers list, if it helps you to heed constructive comments.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
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crowsdiamond

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MaxDemian wrote: 


Against brigands its not so much a worry. With how utterly predictable they are, very few shots are going to miss. PvPwise, i'm never PvPing for the goods, im doing it for the win & I will use as many balls as I have to. Then for blockades, the cost of balls is nothing to the cost of ships you can lose by not shooting, and if that agressiveness helps you win that island, I would say the cost is more than worth it.


I guess I just need to nav more? There are times when I can nail them to the wall, and times when they nail me to the wall. There are rarely any times when I can max them without taking damage, and sometimes they read me so well its freakin scary, even when I change my moves up several times, debating which course to take.

You godnavvers make so damn many assumptions about what's easy and what's not... arrogant knaves.

/me stalks off grumbling..
----------------------------------------
~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
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CrazyMorg



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yeah, great logic

the person who fires the most senseless shots is the best

i must say RD is a true genius

but to be honest...some good stuff in there for people who are still learning some tricks
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MaxDemian



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CrazyMorg wrote: 
yeah, great logic

the person who fires the most senseless shots is the best

i must say RD is a true genius

but to be honest...some good stuff in there for people who are still learning some tricks


First off, don't make a post if you start reading the thread with plans to be negative no matter what and make personal attacks ("i must say RD is a true genius") because of your personal dislike for who made the thread. As for "the person who fires the most senseless shots is the best" (which is obviously worded the worst way possible). How about "The person who hits every time its possible" or "The person who never misses a chance to hit", it's the same thing. It is much better than "The person who keeps missing his chance to hit because he didnt think the person would move there". As long as you make sure your well stocked before hand it is always better to shoot and miss, then miss a chance you could have hit. (Once again I am talking about PvP & blockades as brigands are predictable once you get the AI and there isn't much guess work in naving against them.)
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"Maxdemian is quite right" -Demeter
Diamond: because Quizzical's signature is too good NOT to steal!
Max's House of Black!!!!!22
[Nov 14, 2004 2:36:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.flvresources.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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MaxDemian wrote: 
First off, don't make a post if you start reading the thread with plans to be negative no matter what and make personal attacks ("i must say RD is a true genius") because of your personal dislike for who made the thread.

Not to be incredibly picky, but aren't you still banned? Does that mean we're still not free of this sort of self-righteous tripe? At some point, when the game says they don't want you anymore, does it ever seem like a waste to hang around and be a pest?

HINT: [color=#EFEFEF:4202072de3]I am completely trolling Max, yes. That boy needs to learn when to quit.
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Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Nov 14, 2004 2:53:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MaxDemian



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Gotagota wrote: 
Something that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Also having no idea about anything between Max & Cleaver & the status of his ban. Also ignoring that Cleaver has already said "I don't think that discussion of a specific player's banning is appropriate material for the forums."


Lets keep the thread on track.
----------------------------------------
"Maxdemian is quite right" -Demeter
Diamond: because Quizzical's signature is too good NOT to steal!
Max's House of Black!!!!!22
[Nov 14, 2004 3:00:38 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.flvresources.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
beerbaron



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complicated Reply to this Post
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Guess: Suppose he stands still. What would my best moveset be?

Second-guess: Suppose he thinks I'm standing still. What would his best moveset be? How do I counter that?

Triple-guess: Suppose I do as suggested by "guess." What would his best move be? How do I counter that moveset?


this is kind of funny because, that is what actually goes on in my head while battle naving. unfortunately, my scattered mind then adds in :

Quadruple-guess: Suppose he supposes i suppose he stands still, and suppose he supposes that i think of what his best counter move would be. How do i counter his Counter move to my counter move of his initial counter to my assumption that he is standing still?

and then my mind explodes.
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xox Beerbaron

Silverdawg claps
Silverdawg says, "bb is the best"


Piebald wrote: 
Have some Ice Cream and relax in the shade.

[Nov 14, 2004 3:20:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
beerbaron



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in all honesty, sometimes you just need to use instinct and not make "stupid moves". opportunities often just present themselves, but you have to make sure you don't present that kind of opportunity.

a kind of weird strategy i like to use in PvP is best illustrated in the bugs bunny cartoon where sylvester, the little mouse, and the kangaroo.

sylvester is "the other guy". you are the mouse. sylvester tries to kill you, you keep evading him until you get caught inside an empty crate. sylvester thinks "ha! i've got you now mousthe!" then you become a kangaroo with mouse ears and kick him repeatedly in the face.
----------------------------------------
xox Beerbaron

Silverdawg claps
Silverdawg says, "bb is the best"


Piebald wrote: 
Have some Ice Cream and relax in the shade.

[Nov 14, 2004 3:26:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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Maxdemian wrote: 
Amusement and defensiveness about a personal and private issue about which he wrote a website and spammed anyone who'd listen.
I think you were a little harsh.

Actual thought to RD: Blockades are still about flags. That's just blockades though. You talk as though this is all about whacking brigands and PVP but in the last line of the first post you mention blockades. And, uh, the best blockade navvers actually win...I mean, they win when they're not unopposed. Of course.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Nov 14, 2004 3:32:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MaxDemian



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Gotagota wrote: 
A pointless responce out of lack of anything good to say.

Actual thought to RD: Blockades are still about flags. That's just blockades though. You talk as though this is all about whacking brigands and PVP but in the last line of the first post you mention blockades. And, uh, the best blockade navvers actually win...I mean, they win when they're not unopposed. Of course.


It also depends how the blockade is going. Many of RDs blockades have had only 2 well manned brigs out to stop him at first, and with less manpower (1 well manned brig or 2 undermanned brigs) RDs side often got the upper hand due to the naving (since 2-1 sitting on flags wont win it) before losing to extreme manpower differences when the defense brought all they had. If the manpower had stayed the way it was RD may have gotten the win. As it is with any close to equal manpower blockade, scoring a sink so all of an areas flag points will be going to you could be key. Luthien is the perfect example, all 3 flags blockading had amazing manpower and Carpe Noctem had the better navers and sunk the other sides fleets, so their sinking WAS key.
----------------------------------------
"Maxdemian is quite right" -Demeter
Diamond: because Quizzical's signature is too good NOT to steal!
Max's House of Black!!!!!22
[Nov 14, 2004 3:53:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.flvresources.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Please don't use the term "godnav" or "godnavvers" We're bad enough, don't encourage or feed the Navers.
[Nov 14, 2004 3:59:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
beerbaron



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shuranthae wrote: 
Please don't use the term "godnav" or "godnavvers" We're bad enough, don't encourage or feed the Navers.



agreed. the truth is, the only reason they don't suck is because they're friends with good gunners. oh and most of the top 10's are h4x0rs.
----------------------------------------
xox Beerbaron

Silverdawg claps
Silverdawg says, "bb is the best"


Piebald wrote: 
Have some Ice Cream and relax in the shade.

[Aug 9, 2005 4:00:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bonjella

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[quote][quote]

Quadruple-guess: Suppose he supposes i suppose he stands still, and suppose he supposes that i think of what his best counter move would be. How do i counter his Counter move to my counter move of his initial counter to my assumption that he is standing still?

[/quote]

Moses supposes his toeses are Roses,
But Moses supposes Erroneously,
Moses he knowses his toeses aren't roses,
As Moses supposes his toeses to be!

What? well if I have to put up with this in my head every time i b-nav, then so does everyone else!

Amykate - who's a better b-naver when there's a rhythm
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Ex-SO of Moonlitwake, member of the flag Moonlighting on Midnight
Ex-Captain of Dragon's Horde and Ex-Queen of the RiddleMakers on Viridian
Minister of Technology for RiddleMakers
Gov of Labby
www.RiddleMakers.org
[Nov 14, 2004 7:11:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.cunningcode.com/moonlighting [Link]  Go to top 
Christoban

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If you have poor Gunners/Puzzlers (and don't have the cash or connections to buy good ones), then you have to conserve shot and tokens somewhat.


IMO, Battlenav is about running your opponent out of move tokens, just like swordfighting is about running your opponent out of breakers. First guy dead in the water loses.

If you're running a pillage with subpar jobbers or bots or greenies or some combination thereof, you can still be successful if you throw as many resources as possible at the sails. In sloop and cutter pillages that are undermanned, I have 1 bot on carp, 1 bot split time between bilge and sails, and do my own gunning. Throw all available players on sails. It's tricky at first to juggle botpower, load guns, and go through the move token trial/error all at the same time, (and it doesn't do any favors to your gunning standing) but it's the most effective way to run shorthanded. As long as you can "Conga Line" load, you get enough shot to max the brigand without sacrificing on tokens.

I have not learned to simultaneously sail and Bnav, unless I'm running away. Makes my brain hurt.
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game design wrote: 
..let's see, we have thing A and thing B, with thing B currently not implemented yet. Thing A leads to people stabbing themselves in the eye, as does thing B... but since A already exists..

[Nov 14, 2004 10:21:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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MaxDemian wrote: 
It also depends how the blockade is going. Many of RDs blockades have had only 2 well manned brigs out to stop him at first, and with less manpower (1 well manned brig or 2 undermanned brigs) RDs side often got the upper hand due to the naving (since 2-1 sitting on flags wont win it) before losing to extreme manpower differences when the defense brought all they had. If the manpower had stayed the way it was RD may have gotten the win. As it is with any close to equal manpower blockade, scoring a sink so all of an areas flag points will be going to you could be key. Luthien is the perfect example, all 3 flags blockading had amazing manpower and Carpe Noctem had the better navers and sunk the other sides fleets, so their sinking WAS key.

Fair enough. Every blockade I'd been in had gone the other way, where ships were basically unlimited. I wasn't at Luthien, though.
----------------------------------------
Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Nov 15, 2004 1:55:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Gotagota wrote: 
Fair enough. Every blockade I'd been in had gone the other way, where ships were basically unlimited. I wasn't at Luthien, though.

Since they seem to be wanting to use the "elitest of the elite" examples, you could argue that all sides have an infinite number of ships. If you take more normal scenarios though, ones where not every Gunner is Ultimate and the like, then people won't have infinite ships. Really the resources depends on how well prepared the defense is. The Gaea Defense of the recent Blockade, for example, only started with two brigs and one frig to hold us the first three Rounds.
[Nov 15, 2004 2:14:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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