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nunny_45

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Cant make a reference to horse racing without mentioning the melbourne cup!
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[May 4, 2009 5:59:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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I think it warranted exuberance on the part of horse racing fans.


As an aside...
I was driving home from Pittsburgh on Saturday evening and had to make a pit stop. As I was using the restroom a guy in the stall next to mine was taking a very loud dump and talking on his cellphone, breathlessly describing the race. I don't think exuberance can really describe that state of mind.
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The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

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TuucciZ

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The whole competition was about which horse could finish the race closest to time X while still not going under it. Any horse can easily get a time under X, but X is not known, only speculated. The winner wins a painting / other rare item worth millions.

If that makes it to horse races, then I'll accept that familiars are given to top fines.
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StuManchu

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I think it warranted exuberance on the part of horse racing fans.


As an aside...
I was driving home from Pittsburgh on Saturday evening and had to make a pit stop. As I was using the restroom a guy in the stall next to mine was taking a very loud dump and talking on his cellphone, breathlessly describing the race. I don't think exuberance can really describe that state of mind.


I bet it felt really good to be letting it ALL out.
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[May 4, 2009 7:29:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AtariRaccoon

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If anything, the comp is comparable to The Price is Right. Make the performance closest to the hidden mark without going over.


This is how I see it:


  • Random Greenie gets a familiar for getting best fine.
  • Sells it for a good price, (or stupidly for 50k).
  • Finds that with the million(s) they have, they get everything and no longer have any reason to play the game.
  • Never bothers to subscribe (or buy Doubloons) after the first month of play off of his easy million(s), as they're suddenly bored of the game, after already achieving what they believe is max reward.
  • OOO looses.

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Murasaki, the most interesting man on Midnight

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by AtariRaccoon at May 4, 2009 8:42:09 AM]
[May 4, 2009 8:41:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bobie

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It's not 'oh I slapped my mouse with muh balls for 15 minutes...


Alas, Stu lets everyone in our our secrets to success. Sometimes you can switch it up and hit your keyboard with some delicious Himmy.

 
This instance kind of crystallizes how the game has continuously pandered more and more to the Young and Dumb. Nowadays competitions are kind of what's left of end-game stuff, and this has essentially deleted one of the few Really High End Goals that's still out there and being chased (extremely lazily, in some cases) by people who have been to the pinnacle of achievement in the majority of the other arenas the game encompasses. Let's just put familiars in the palace shoppe, turn Houses into Islands, remove sinking from the game, and not even bother with PvP.


Yay.

 
Now, the snippiness at and around my home-dog what put the tournament in play shall not be tolerated.


For serious. I agree that it's a sign of the way this is, and has been, going (hence the reason for the retiring - yes, I still consider myself technically retired), but I don't see why this happening now is the catalyst for everything. I guess it has to happen at some point, but when a lot of the same stuff has been going on for more than 3 years now, I just don't get why there's the blowup at this instance.

Now that being said, starting this competition in the middle of my first sail with Batmobile in 3 years, that's just unforgivable.
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[May 4, 2009 9:00:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    BobieLaptop [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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A sense of humor and occasion only works when the event reasonably mirrors the real life occurrence. When the winning horse at my local racetrack is randomly awarded the Triple Crown, I will gladly accept that a familiar should be awarded to the top fine in homage.
The two circumstances do not compare.
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[May 4, 2009 9:07:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sprngweather

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Grinfish, you are just as sentimental as everyone else in this thread. Just picture something you felt passionate about so you can relate.

----

I disagree with this tournament, but, it agrees with the general direction the game has taken and I've reluctantly accepted it a long time ago. A crap player can get lucky and win enough to buy that parrot on the poker tables, so, even without OOO giving them away to unskilled players, it would wind up in their hands anyway. I see why Midnighters seem more upset by this than other ocean players, since, on subscriber oceans, you can't buy success with real $ as easily and poker on Midnight is much tighter than others (often no high limit tables are even running), so, wearing a familiar is still a sign of some accomplishment. However, please remember that tons of colored octopuses were given out to random subscribers not that long ago.

What bothers me some about this is that not that long ago there was a post in Game Design implying this wouldn't happen with other prizes:

Apollo wrote: 
For the normal non-egg prizes for competitions, I think it's good to have an appropriate distinction between the prizes given out for inc/exc/good/fine, but with the eggs, I want the eggy love shared. (On a side note, I agree with the above and I'd also like to be able to have top four ratings AND top category prizes in the same competition - I know it's been suggested before, but I have no idea how viable it would be to do it!).

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[May 4, 2009 9:44:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jolyma

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I highly doubt this is going to be the norm in competitions. If it were to be, I would be as upset as others in this thread are. A one time thing to be silly though doesn't feel like something to get worked up about IMHO.
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[May 4, 2009 10:50:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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Everything else that effected this sort of "Redirect To The Noobs" atmosphere has become the norm, why would it be any different in this case?
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Was once Stuyvesant

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[May 4, 2009 11:15:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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If only it had been a pedantry tournament, you might have won.

The occasion was an unlikely winner. Having not seen the race itself, I can't presume as to whether it actually outraced the field, or whether other horses pulled up due to injury/fallers. If you drop the technicalities of the race (remember, a lot of pirates don't actually give a flying frig about the Kentucky Derby), the representation through the said rigging event was fair enough - an "unlikely winner". The same happened in the UK Grand National, with a 100/1 outsider winning from a field of 40 horses. Was it the best horse on the day, or was it part luck due to other horses slipping on loose turf, getting cut across by riderless mounts, jockeys having eaten too much the night before, etc.

It's a completely false comparison between the unlikely winner of a competition and the unlikely winner of a lottery. An unlikely winner of a competition is one of my hearties on Sage, who was broad/able and won a colored familiar in a competition with his first incredible in that puzzle ever. Holding a standard competition allows the chance for breathtaking results like that to occur. If you want more variance, make the competition shorter.

Why was Mine That Bird's victory so remarkable? Not just because he wasn't favored to win, but because he won one of the most prestigious races in the world. Winning a familiar puzzle competition still carries prestige, until it becomes necessary to ask if they won it for top incred or top fine. The Kentucky Derby results were a triumph of the spirit of competition, in a sport that requires millions be invested to be considered competitive. The rigging comp's mockery of the spirit of competition doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath.

 
I just can't see why so many people are up on blocks over a bit of fun

It wasn't "a bit of fun" for those running pillages, blockades, flotillas, atlantis, or cursed isle runs, and suddenly found jobbers incentivized to perform at a subpar level. At the very least put it on a bakeoff ship where the effects are isolated.

 
unless of course, they only find enjoyment in getting what they want all the time, in which case feel free to continue the dummy-spitting and depramification of toys.

This is an incredibly ignorant perspective. I'll be the first to admit that some posts from both sides have been tasteless. But, many who agree with me are arguing against their own self-interests, in the interest of preserving some form of integrity in the game. Nice sideways introduction of the "it's only a game" argument too (I'll assume you meant deprecation instead of "depramification").

-Vnork
[May 4, 2009 11:15:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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For those looking for past quotes or arguments here's the Ice thread introducing competitions (start on the 24th), a nice section of the Game Design thread I think worth re-reading, and this gem of a quote from Whitewyvern:
Whitewyvern wrote: 
I see no reason to deny someone who has actually shown signs of progression in a puzzle the opportunity to win something. It's not like they're going to be given a parrot, is it?

***************

Simple question. Are you angry because:
A) The player who scored top incredible was rewarded less than the player who scored top fine.
B) The player who scored top fine was given something you thought they don't deserve.
C) You think the competition setup encouraged sub-par performance that was detrimental to everyone else aboard the ship.

These aren't exclusive, but please rank them if you select more than one.
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Orsino, Viridian ocean
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Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Fiddler at May 4, 2009 11:22:21 AM]
[May 4, 2009 11:19:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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this gem of a quote from Whitewyvern:
Whitewyvern wrote: 
I see no reason to deny someone who has actually shown signs of progression in a puzzle the opportunity to win something. It's not like they're going to be given a parrot, is it?


That was in response to me in that thread. Looks like I predicted this sort o' thing. Another good response from someone further down that thread, leading with the ol' "if you don't like it, go away" style:
Orsino wrote: 
your vision of who deserves rewards and recognition is vastly different than the Ringer's vision. If it bothers you that much why are you still playing?

...and yet we have this thread. I suppose everyone here should stop playing too.

Oh, and A, B, C since I don't want to be inconsistent and change me mind from thread to thread.
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Peglegpaul
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by bronzebeard at May 4, 2009 11:45:23 AM]
[May 4, 2009 11:43:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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I suppose everyone here should stop playing too.

If it'll make them feel better, sure. I've said the same thing for years now; in this game, other games, in real life. If you're unhappy here they why do you stay? Take a break, get your blood pressure down, come back in a few days/weeks/months and re-evaluate if what got you so upset is worth giving up the things you do enjoy.
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Orsino, Viridian ocean
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Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

[May 4, 2009 11:51:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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I suppose everyone here should stop playing too.

If it'll make them feel better, sure. I've said the same thing for years now; in this game, other games, in real life. If you're unhappy here they why do you stay? Take a break, get your blood pressure down, come back in a few days/weeks/months and re-evaluate if what got you so upset is worth giving up the things you do enjoy.

Judging from my hearty list, the average # of players online, and the current average flag size, people have certainly been listening to you.

-Vnork
[May 4, 2009 11:54:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Colvic

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Hey, the OM's can make tournies where people can win by getting fine?! That's so unfair! I want to be able to make a 200k tournament where the pot distribution goes in reverse! So all the losers can get the poe!

PLEASE if you can find it in your hearts, spare a little thought for the losers.

And maybe if I whine and b*tch a bit more you'll listen to me? Please listen to me!
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Different Tournament Formats please!

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sprngweather

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For those that don't read GD:

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=1865910#1865910

Artemis wrote: 
It was never intended for familiars to be given out for the excellent, good or fine prize categories in competitions and we'll see that it doesn't happen again.

In other news... We do have another round of familiar competitions planned for May with an emphasis on more rigging competitions to try and catch up a bit to the other puzzles. There should be a thread posted about those in the near future once they are set up!

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Grinfish

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(I'll assume you meant deprecation instead of "depramification").

Nope, I just made up a word because it sounded funny at the time.
 
this gem of a quote from Whitewyvern:

Got me there. I'll go by the "occasional exceptions don't make a policy" defence, yer honour.

Yes, skill should be rewarded - and in most cases, it is, either through Familiars, Islands, rare trinkets, solid gold rocket cars, so on and so forth.
However, there's nothing wrong with throwing the occasional bone into the Gods to remind those who aren't at the top of the game that "Anything is Possible", in the hope that if 1 mediocre player (very) occasionally wins something beyond their usual means, another 200 will stick around in the hope that maybe some day it'll be their time, and maybe while they do said sticking around, they'll find plenty more stuff to enjoy.
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Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey.
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Unretired, still No regrets.
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[May 4, 2009 1:26:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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However, there's nothing wrong with throwing the occasional bone into the Gods to remind those who aren't at the top of the game that "Anything is Possible", in the hope that if 1 mediocre player (very) occasionally wins something beyond their usual means, another 200 will stick around in the hope that maybe some day it'll be their time, and maybe while they do said sticking around, they'll find plenty more stuff to enjoy.


This is actually a good point. I think semi-rare things like OM eggs and sleeping pets fit the bill much better than a tan parrot though. I am still against the principle behind this quote, but I am realistic enough to see why it can be a good thing if used very sparingly.
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OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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ssandv



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Gonna have to agree with the sheeps here. (Usually a good policy)

This is entirely consistent with the direction of the game since, well, 5 hour blockades and the global purse.

It didn't make me happy, mind you, but it was more of a "meh whatever" than anything else. I still like rigging.

You want to find an untradeable representation of how uber you are, look in your trophy box. Be nice if more of those things could be displayed/worn in pictures, though.
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Darksand (back again!)
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Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

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sweetnessc

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Oceanus wrote: 
Sweetiepiepi wrote: 
Let me be completely clear: I have no issue with the occasional tan familiar handed out as an add-on to giving them to skilled players.

I do have an issue, and a big disappointment, at seeing top prizes going exclusively to crappy performances...


This competition was meant to be in addition to (not replacing) other familiar puzzle competitions. It was extra. In that light, let me ask a question:

If familiars were awarded more regularly for duty/crafting puzzle competitions, would this event have felt like such a slap in the face? (I'm aware there are other factors. I'm just trying to get a feel for how big this aspect is.)


I get that, I understand it. Sometimes it's fun to be silly. Having a few silly add-ons can be fun. But to what exactly are you perceiving them as being an add-on to?

What I now understand is that OOO doesn't understand just how bloody few familiars have been handed for any puzzle other than sf, rumble, tdrop or drinking, ever.

Take a peek at this spreadsheet. It's all the familiars anyone on Midnight could try for in the past year. Puzzles in red have never had a coloured familiar. Puzzles in yellow got a single chance each at winning coloured and a tan in the past year. Puzzles in green got two chances to win in the last year.

For many of these puzzles, the familiars in this table are the only familiars ever awarded for these puzzles on the Midnight Ocean. Ever. That's two people who have won a familiar for that puzzle, whether coloured or tan, ever. In five years. To see repeated commentary that it's time to 'share the prizes around', I just don't get it. They were never shared with the people who were good at the puzzle, but the decision is to hop straight to giving them out as a raffle prize? That, I really don't get. This game has precious few high end goals in it for the first place. There's blockading, and there's familiars. There's not a whole heck of a lot else. There's five years of unrecognized achievements that I thought, and perhaps I thought it mistakenly, that the automated competitions were created to help address. But they've been out for nine months now, and they're posted so rarely that I've barely ever seen one. There definitely have not been hundreds of competitions run in the last nine months, sorry Zing.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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OdorOfFrodo

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When are the poker familiars coming out?

Whoever bluffs Ace high wins a parrot.
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Talisker wrote: 
Obviously this calls for dressing up as Karl Marx.

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Sagacious

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Crossover post:
Sagacious wrote: 
Artemis wrote: 
It was never intended for familiars to be given out for the excellent, good or fine prize categories in competitions and we'll see that it doesn't happen again.
I call bullcannon. You're bowing to pressure from the whiners who are scared their familiars won't be worth millions of PoE anymore. Don't remove the right of an Oceanmaster to be spontaneous and fun.

I've never felt so bad about something in ages. Being on that ship was embarrassing. This is why we can't have nice things.

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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
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Markus1

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I highly doubt this is going to be the norm in competitions. If it were to be, I would be as upset as others in this thread are. A one time thing to be silly though doesn't feel like something to get worked up about IMHO.


Exactly. It's not something to get overwrought about.


Now how I understand standings/scoring is that there is a numerical score behind the "titles" we see -- which are relative to the other people playing the game (99% percentile = ult etc). The game recalculates what score constitutes an ult, leg, GM, etc., once a day. So if a player had a score of say 1658 (arbitrary number), and say the game had determined that day that 1656 was "ult", the player would be shown as "ult". Your standing is an average over n number of duty reports as to how well you did -- so if your average score crosses a "threshold number" while your actively puzzling, your standing changes (It also explains in part why you standing can drop/go up after you logoff -- because the "threshold number" is recalculated each day, and if your right on the edge, you might go up/down depending upon the recalculation).

The duty report score is an "instantaneous" representation of your score -- but like puzzle standing -- is relative to the other players. This leads me to believe that there are "threshold numbers" for duty reports as well that are recalculated each day. To compare peoples scores live would take a lot of computing power (/me shudders at the thought of the lag it would cause).

Thus on any given day, there is a very specific score for "Top Fine", "Top Exc", etc. Except for of course -- increds -- which have no cap (in theory -- some puzzles (most notably b-nav) seem to have a hard cap).

Getting the top fine is a lot like hitting the bulleye, because there is only one way to win. I'm not saying it's easy, far from it (and I definitely couldn't do it), but somebody with complete mastery of the puzzle could.

Now admittedly, since top "fine" was used, there was a chance that some random greenie might “hit the lottery” and win, but still for a "very rare" competition, which challenges the elite puzzlers to "think outside the box" and work outside of their "comfort zone", is that such a bad thing?
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Zingman

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Bobie

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Also crossover.

 
Crossover post:
Sagacious wrote: 
Artemis wrote: 
It was never intended for familiars to be given out for the excellent, good or fine prize categories in competitions and we'll see that it doesn't happen again.
I call bullcannon. You're bowing to pressure from the whiners who are scared their familiars won't be worth millions of PoE anymore. Don't remove the right of an Oceanmaster to be spontaneous and fun.

I've never felt so bad about something in ages. Being on that ship was embarrassing. This is why we can't have nice things.


 
 
I've never felt so bad about something in ages. Being on that ship was embarrassing.


I AM OFFENDED.

Listen. It just ain't that deep people. Move on, not to belittle those that have em but familiars have been goin' out like candy for a while now.

----------------------------------------
Bendeall (Bo, if you know me)

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sweetnessc

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The Ult lists are calculated once a day. Everything else isn't.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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basso

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The Ult lists are calculated once a day. Everything else isn't.


If scoring curves are constantly moving (which I doubt, but lets assume they are) when is the curve "locked in" to determine the "best fine"?
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OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 4, 2009 5:43:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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The Ult lists are calculated once a day. Everything else isn't.

If scoring curves are constantly moving (which I doubt, but lets assume they are) when is the curve "locked in" to determine the "best fine"?

Evidence from bake-offs is that sparklies and duty reports are recalculated real time. If you get a bunch of people puzzling at high-leg/ult level for even 5 or 10 minutes, that is enough to change what would normally be an "incredible" into an "excellent", etc. The first time I saw a bake-off DR, I was amazed that there were only two incredibles on it, but that happens quite a bit.

Also, ringers have said (I think in some of the release notes, but also on forum posts) that the "good" vs "excellent" categories of competitions are relative to those that enter. So, if 10 people enter a competition and no one gets an incredible, things will be re-scaled so that the best excellent will be rated as an incredible.

So, in order to target the "best fine", you have to ignore what you will get on the duty report because the scoring curve will be fairly quickly booched by everyone trying to get "fine", but also you have to ignore the duty report because just because it says "fine" doesn't mean it won't be scaled up to "good". Yes, in theory, a really good player could target the right puzzling output to win the "top fine", but I really doubt anyone can do it in practice. No one really knows the scoring system, no one knows the scoring of everyone else who is puzzling, no one knows even how many people are puzzling.

Scoring the "top fine" when everyone is trying to do their best will be a little bit easier since there are a lot fewer players that can dramatically raiser their puzzling ability than dramatically lower it so the scoring curve won't change quite as much.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 4, 2009 6:41:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tanonev

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Also, ringers have said (I think in some of the release notes, but also on forum posts) that the "good" vs "excellent" categories of competitions are relative to those that enter. So, if 10 people enter a competition and no one gets an incredible, things will be re-scaled so that the best excellent will be rated as an incredible.

So, in order to target the "best fine", you have to ignore what you will get on the duty report because the scoring curve will be fairly quickly booched by everyone trying to get "fine", but also you have to ignore the duty report because just because it says "fine" doesn't mean it won't be scaled up to "good". Yes, in theory, a really good player could target the right puzzling output to win the "top fine", but I really doubt anyone can do it in practice. No one really knows the scoring system, no one knows the scoring of everyone else who is puzzling, no one knows even how many people are puzzling.


How is that consistent with the way the leaderboard works? Is there any anecdotal evidence of a player getting one DR at the end of a crafting session and showing up on a different leaderboard as a result?

If results get rescaled as the competition progresses (and the leaderboard along with it), then wouldn't it be possible to shift your not-so-top Fine score into the top Fine score by doing poorly on a bazillion alts, kicking everyone above you off into the Good division?
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[May 4, 2009 6:54:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Also, ringers have said (I think in some of the release notes, but also on forum posts) that the "good" vs "excellent" categories of competitions are relative to those that enter. So, if 10 people enter a competition and no one gets an incredible, things will be re-scaled so that the best excellent will be rated as an incredible.

How is that consistent with the way the leaderboard works? Is there any anecdotal evidence of a player getting one DR at the end of a crafting session and showing up on a different leaderboard as a result?


From the 2008-07-28 Ice release notes:
* Calculate incredible, excellent and so on in multi-puzzle competitions relative to the competition scores so the 'best' category isn't needed.
* Fix bug in puzzle competitions preventing prizes from being given out to lower performance levels if no one qualifies for a prize in a higher level.

I seem to recall some posts in the ice form thread about some apoth competition that had about 10 entries, none of them got an incredible, but someone still won. I haven't looked for that posting though.

So, yeah, there is some evidence, but since you can't see all the info on the leader board, it would be hard to tell for sure. You can only people around your own scores, and you can only see one of your scores (e.g., score an excellent, and you won't see your fine or good scores anymore), and you can only see the leader board when you aren't puzzling.

 
If results get rescaled as the competition progresses (and the leaderboard along with it), then wouldn't it be possible to shift your not-so-top Fine score into the top Fine score by doing poorly on a bazillion alts, kicking everyone above you off into the Good division?

With the number of people puzzling on production oceans, I doubt you could move your scores around that much. It would probably be easier to move scores around by booching to push stuff up than scoring lots of incredibles to push stuff down, but I think it throws out duty reports that are too short so even booching takes a while.
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[May 4, 2009 7:21:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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