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sweetnessc

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Let me be completely clear: I have no issue with the occasional tan familiar handed out as an add-on to giving them to skilled players.

I do have an issue, and a big disappointment, at seeing top prizes going exclusively to crappy performances, which is what we have now, as well as seeing the very first familiar ever given for this puzzle for the same.

The stinginess of OOO to the core puzzlers of the game just astonishes me. Instead of sharing out the ones the 'rich kids' are winning, they've gone into the inner city ghetto and taken the one free ball they're giving out to give to some kid who's never even bothered trying out for soccer, instead of to one of the 30 kids who've been playing every day with homemade balls made out of duct tape.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
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Dylan

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The Kentucky Derby is actually one of the most well-known sporting events in the world.


No it isn't.
[May 3, 2009 10:20:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Simmins3

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The Kentucky Derby is actually one of the most well-known sporting events in the world.


No it isn't.


Seconded. I've never heard of it, being in Australia.
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basso

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The stinginess of OOO to the core puzzlers of the game just astonishes me. Instead of sharing out the ones the 'rich kids' are winning, they've gone into the inner city ghetto and taken the one free ball they're giving out to give to some kid who's never even bothered trying out for soccer, instead of to one of the 30 kids who've been playing every day with homemade balls made out of duct tape.


QFT, and furthermore, can we stop the myth that "the same people win them all the time"? Several hearties of mine won their first and only familiar in either the summer games or the January competitions. Not everyone is mega rich or sells their new toy. My top hearty has the ult of ults trophy, but has never gotten near winning even a tan familiar. The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of great puzzlers who can get incredibles, but not quite the highest incredible on that given day. I would much prefer a straight raffle of the tan parrot, as opposed to a competition that actively encourages people to do as bad as they possibly can. The principle is that encouraging people to strive for something better is a good thing. Rewarding mediocrity under the guise of a "competition" leads to growing feelings of entitlement. I don't want to win the parrot, I want the highest incred to win the parrot. I want to see hard work and excellence rewarded. I want people to try their best, and best satisfied with their own effort if they don't win.

Finally, I'd love to see people step outside their own immediate self-interest, and actually think about the principles behind the action. Of course one tan parrot is not a big deal. The big deal is the idea of what a familiar used to be awarded for and represent. The big deal is that this game used to be about "puzzling skill". The big deal is that every hard working yet not quite super hax puzzler just got slapped in the face last night.
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OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Gillie017

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Very well put.

I'd like to see OOO taking steps to eliminate the lazing culture that has become endemic in this game. Jobbers get paid the same for lazing as they do for puzzling hard on SMH and flotillas. Now familiars have been handed out to those who did not try to do well at a puzzle.

Where is the incentive for anyone to do well or to work hard to improve?
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If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a Huntard .
[May 3, 2009 10:57:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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And yet people haven't heard about the UK's Grand National race - which has been running since 1839...ish.
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marundel

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And yet people haven't heard about the UK's Grand National race - which has been running since 1839...ish.


I've heard of it
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Jolyma

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And yet people haven't heard about the UK's Grand National race - which has been running since 1839...ish.


I know what it is! National Velvet FTW!! People who don't know much about horses or fox hunting or steeplechases probably never heard of it though.

The Kentucky Derby does hold some prominence in horse racing all over the world. If you know what a Thoroughbred is, and know that it's a race horse, chances are, you've heard of the Triple Crown. The sheik who owns the Godolphin Stables in Saudi Arabia has tried for quite a few years now to prove he can buy a 2 year old US Thoroughbred, winter it in the desert and race it there, then win the Derby. He has gorgeous race horses, but so far he's never gotten closer to the Roses than 6th.

Total derail, sorry, I'm into horses.
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Jolyma

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[May 3, 2009 12:53:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quitex

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[nitpick] I'm Montage, not Montag. We have quite different posting styles [/nitpick]


Yeah, my keyboard ate the E, I know you're not Montag.


You're cuter than him.
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Someone asked why Quitex would do this as a rogue. All I can say is, well, he's QUITEX! No one knows what he will do next, ESPECIALLY Quitex.

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Kotetsu534



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This is a little tangential; forgive me. I've noticed people using the phrase, or the equivalent of "hard working" to describe the pirates who were hurt by yesterday's familiar raffle competition. It raises a question in my mind: is simply being hard working enough to be 'deserving' of a familiar? Does it even have anything to do with it?

I think of the people grinding away their levels in certain other MMORPGs that shall remain nameless when I think of 'hard working', and I also think of the immediate distinction between YPP and them (the one that I defend myself with whenever someone says "You play an MMO? I thought you hated grinding..."). Yet, clearly, the amount of practice it takes to score highest in a (old-style) bakeoff, or win a carousing tournament against top players can be reasonably defined as 'hard work'. But then, the amount of this 'work' that someone has to do to reach the level capable of winning a familiar is different... I've read that Silverdawg won a coloured familiar in Swordfighting less than two months after joining the game, and I know it took me at least four times that in daily rumble practice to win my lesser tan, and I know many people who have practiced ('worked', if you like) their puzzles longer than that without having the pixels on their shoulder. Where, then, does the distinction between work and skill lie? Is it more blurred than it is sometimes assumed?

I'm merely noticing a conflation of different ideas and musing about it.
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Nomura, SO of Innocent, Member of Crimson Tide, Midnight.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Kotetsu534 at May 3, 2009 1:35:02 PM]
[May 3, 2009 1:28:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/03/will-hutton-fairness-unjust-society
[May 3, 2009 1:30:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Markus1

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Top fine = Luck.


Top anything = Luck

If there was no luck involved, the same person would win -- everytime.

But that's not what happens, and in any given competition there are 10 or people with enough skill to win it, one person just happens to have the pieces fall "just right", etc.

In someways, the competition in question was a lot harder, because you had to finesse it. You had puzzle well enough to get a fine, but not so good that it tips over to "good". Kinda like needing a double 2 in darts for the win, instead of a triple 20.

It makes for an "interesting competition"

That being said, for the first one awarded -- kinda tacky.
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Zingman

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Perlandria

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This is a little tangential; forgive me. I've noticed people using the phrase, or the equivalent of "hard working" to describe the pirates who were hurt by yesterday's familiar raffle competition. It raises a question in my mind: is simply being hard working enough to be 'deserving' of a familiar? Does it even have anything to do with it?


Considering I've been harshed for having three sublimes, which means I am grindy, and that my familiar was lucked in Atlantis after over a year of consistent effort - I'd say the meritocracy is unhappy even with simple hard work and only accepts elite hard work.
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Furnishing Puzzle Project:
Discussion: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=97545
Prototype: http://albert.best.vwh.net/gilthead/GiltHead.html
Proposal: http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/GCPP:Proposal-Gilthead
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OdorOfFrodo

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I've never had a fine in Rigging.

Therefore, I would have been unable to win this.

Therefore, it's not a raffle. (Convoluted logic, but I like the way it shines.)
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Oceanus
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Let me be completely clear: I have no issue with the occasional tan familiar handed out as an add-on to giving them to skilled players.

I do have an issue, and a big disappointment, at seeing top prizes going exclusively to crappy performances...


This competition was meant to be in addition to (not replacing) other familiar puzzle competitions. It was extra. In that light, let me ask a question:

If familiars were awarded more regularly for duty/crafting puzzle competitions, would this event have felt like such a slap in the face? (I'm aware there are other factors. I'm just trying to get a feel for how big this aspect is.)
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wow, I always wanted to talk to an OM without being in trouble

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Boomaker

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If they are making SF fams sticks for 6 weeks might as well make the Duty fams fine or best booched for that matter.
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Eolithic CS 1.5 for life

Eolithic has won This is 10% luck, 20% skill!

Factorie says, "Eolithic has a 99 Percent chance of Winning, that other 1 Percent is also Winning."

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vnork



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If they are making SF fams sticks for 6 weeks might as well make the Duty fams fine or best booched for that matter.

It's not the same thing. Even in a stick SF tourney, you have to beat everyone else to win.

 
This competition was meant to be in addition to (not replacing) other familiar puzzle competitions. It was extra.


If you want to make a luck-based competition, have a 1 minute long competition. Or like a 5 minute long competition for every puzzle. It would be lame and luck-based, but at least you could tell yourself you did better than anyone else on the ocean.

-Vnork
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by vnork at May 3, 2009 5:20:03 PM]
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mads0001

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I'm waiting for a TD familiar to be awarded to "random guy that was knocked out in round 2" Rather than to, you know, the guy that wins the thing. Then I'd at least have a hope of winning a TD fam... I don't want to put the time and effort into, you know, getting good at the game, reward me anyway!


Alternatively, conjure up some new uber elite top end only shiny stuff to give people something to strive for.

Preferably something wearable and that cannot be traded. That'd placate some of us. (Well, me, and possibly a few others, but most importantly me :P)
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kenjennings

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You can have a hall monitor sash.
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[removed by SOPA]
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basso

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If familiars were awarded more regularly for duty/crafting puzzle competitions, would this event have felt like such a slap in the face? (I'm aware there are other factors. I'm just trying to get a feel for how big this aspect is.)


Think of the Olympics in real life. Gold medals only go to those who win events. Silver and bronze medals go to those who place 2nd and 3rd. If one day they decide to give any medal to the 35th qualifier, how does that not cheapen what a medal is supposed to be about?

Anyways, yes more competitions would be great, but no, it would not lessen the slap to serious players. It has nothing to do with me or anyone winning or not winning a familiar. This is not personal. I am not trying to prevent certain people from winning things. It is simply about "medals" going to those who earn them by performing the best. Like others have said, if you want to have a raffle, just make it a straight raffle.

This game was and is still billed as being based on "puzzling" skills. Can you really type that getting a fine in rigging demonstrates skill in that puzzle? How can you reconcile that a person on each ocean "won" something highly desirable for a performance that was decidedly below average? What can you possibly say to all the long term dedicated and skilled puzzlers who have never sniffed even a tan familiar? Personally, I have won 5 familiars, so this has nothing to do with me not winning. I have hearties who can pull constant incredibles on every station, but are never quite good enough to get the highest one. The slap was on their faces most of all.

I know you are a horse racing fan, and that horse that won the race performed in a decidedly above average way. You could even call its performance "incredible". Purposely setting up a competition to contrive a win for an underdog is not the same thing at all. The "underdog pirate" certainly didn't beat anyone at all. They performed the task at a low level, and fell on the correct side of an arbitrary cutoff point, that is invisible to everyone.

I often go out of my way to help and encourage newer players. I have spent hours helping them to improve their puzzling, set up stalls, or go over basics of how pillaging works. Most of them end up just asking me for poe. Many of them also tell me how "lucky" I am to own familiars and shops. They seem to think that because I have so much, they are entitled to some of it. The point is that everyone wants something for nothing these days. I started with nothing, and clawed my way up the food chain. If I look at what I have now, I feel satisfaction because I have earned every single pixel of it (minus 20 dubs bought, once to make my account permanent, once to get a stupid trophy). Now, giving away a tan familiar (worth roughly 1.5m-2m on dub oceans) for practically nothing only feeds this attitude of entitlement. I am sure many players asked, "why not me?" when it ended. Rather than encourage people to reach for the top, you had us all trip over ourselves to scrape the bottom. As humorous as that is from a certain point of view, it has tremendously negative affects on the culture of the game. Furthermore, sinking blockades were going on at this time. Suddenly having everyone flock to and scoring fines on sails is terrible for the overall performance of the ship. The entire thing simply did not seem very well thought out. I do appreciate the fact that you are a creative and fun Ocean Master. I also understand that you had positive intentions with this competition. Believe me when I say this though, that a little bit of the game died for me that night. Dramatic? Yes, it is, but I am sharing my thoughts. If nothing else, I know I am not alone on this one.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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ascorbate



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If familiars were awarded more regularly for duty/crafting puzzle competitions, would this event have felt like such a slap in the face?


Yes, just a lighter slap in the face. (This is speaking as a genuine 100% Grade A capital L Lucker in the familiar owning category. I find that there's something poetically right about my situation, though--the raffled familiar I own is a serpent, the least popular familiar in the game.)

 
(I'm aware there are other factors. I'm just trying to get a feel for how big this aspect is.)


Here's my three PoE:

* Classic familiars (monkey, octopus, parrot) should be Serious Prizes won on merit.
* Fine contests are actually a great idea! They just need other prizes.
* Fine contests should be put on hiatus until it's possible to run Fine puzzle contests that CANNOT be played on human run ships. While being a captain should not be easy, captains should never face the threat of having OOO bribing their crew into sabotaging the ship.
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Vnork flag officer chats, "I don't know about anyone else, but I have starfish related emergencies all the time"
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Sagacious

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This whole thread makes me sad. The OMs don't do things like this to be meanie heads. They do it because they like to be spontaneous and fun. Just because you can't face sucking at a puzzle - even for a familiar - is just tough. Blind luck is involved in numerous familiar tourneys - I don't see people tarting about that. The fact it was the first familiar tourney for rigging - is completely irrelevant.

And turtles are cool - give them some love!
Oceanus wrote: 
If familiars were awarded more regularly for duty/crafting puzzle competitions, would this event have felt like such a slap in the face? (I'm aware there are other factors. I'm just trying to get a feel for how big this aspect is.)
People don't like spontaneity - especially when familiars are involved - because the most elite players can't ensure they'll be all warmed up ready to pwn n00bs, in preparation for another flawless victory. I formally request more familiar tournaments and competitions with no warning and settings which aggravate those who don't understand the concept of defeat.

Sometimes, people deserve a slap in the face.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Sagacious at May 3, 2009 6:57:45 PM]
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ShoyuLite

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QFT a thousand times to everything Montage just said.

Will throwing more puzzle competitions lessen the slap in the face? Simply put, No.

And this just is not about the one tan familiar, people have been feeling this way about the recent Easter Egg competitions as well. I remember when Puzzle Competitions first were released and we were introduced to the Top Categories format. People disliked the idea from the start, but it was only justified with the "promise" that the prizes for Top Excellent, Top Good, and Top Fines would be prizes less than what a Top Incredible would be. I'd have to dig through Game Design for that thread, but I do remember OMs voicing their opinions agreeing that the prizes should be relatively "small" comparatively.
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[May 3, 2009 6:51:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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My tuppence:

Sure, it could have been timed better. However, making it a prize which could be won by ALL players in the newest puzzle, rather than just those with natural flair/loads of practice on Ice, is not bad at all.

Much as Ultimate trophies are not awarded until the puzzle rankings have reached their natural balance, I think that the choice to make an automated duty puzzle award a familiar at random for playing the game is better than the choice of it being random for the brand new puzzle elites. The alternative choice is not to have a familiar on offer at all, which is a valid alternative but not much fun if extended to the extreme.
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cmdrzoom

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I could tell you exactly who destroyed the mystique around familiars, and when, but none of you want to hear that again.
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[May 3, 2009 7:33:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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This whole thread makes me sad. The OMs don't do things like this to be meanie heads. They do it because they like to be spontaneous and fun. Just because you can't face sucking at a puzzle - even for a familiar - is just tough. Blind luck is involved in numerous familiar tourneys - I don't see people tarting about that. The fact it was the first familiar tourney for rigging - is completely irrelevant.


Please show me where anyone called an OM a meanie head. Do you understand the principle that I am arguing about?
 

People don't like spontaneity - especially when familiars are involved - because the most elite players can't ensure they'll be all warmed up ready to pwn n00bs, in preparation for another flawless victory.


Really? Do you really think ults need to warm up to "pwn n00bs"? It is beside the point, as I am not an elite rigger, and would have had no chance at winning. Once again, do you understand the principle involved? Stop taking it so personally, and look at it from a wider perspective.
 

I formally request more familiar tournaments and competitions with no warning and settings which aggravate those who don't understand the concept of defeat.

Sometimes, people deserve a slap in the face.


Actually, I wouldn't mind someone slapping you in the face for completely missing the point and misrepresenting what we are saying. I have lost soooo many times in competitions that I can barely count them all. Recently, I got 2nd in a multi-puzzle competition, for a colored octopus. The winner was a person that I had personally taught how to play alchemy. We kept passing each other back and forth in the final minutes, as I climbed the d-nav list, and he climbed the carp one. He won, I sent him a tell immediately congratulating him. I don't for one second regret teaching him to play alchemy better (yes it was one of the puzzles in the comp). If I am to win something, I want to be the best of the best. If I am not that day or ever again, I will congratulate those who are. Believe me, I am very comfortable with defeat. I could list several more examples from my own life (full of defeats that it is) but I think I have typed enough here.

For the love of cleaver, can people understand it is not about winning and losing. It is about the principle involved. It is about trying your best, and being happy for someone else who performed better. It is about gold medals going to those who win. It is about races being won by those who cross the finish line first. If you really want to read all this and decide that I am some how upset about losing, please enjoy being ignorant. Some of us are capable of caring about concepts that do not directly involve ourselves.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 3, 2009 7:36:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Please show me where anyone called an OM a meanie head. Do you understand the principle that I am arguing about?


In reverse order: Yes he does, and no, he is not going to post chat logs of what Sweetie said.
[May 3, 2009 7:43:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Please show me where anyone called an OM a meanie head. Do you understand the principle that I am arguing about?


In reverse order: Yes he does, and no, he is not going to post chat logs of what Sweetie said.


Based on his comments, I don't think he did. Where did he address the idea that gold medals should go to those who win? Where did he address the idea that giving a gold medal to the 35th best swimmer is a cruel joke?
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 3, 2009 7:45:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
da_ripper

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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I formally request more familiar tournaments and competitions with no warning and settings which aggravate those who don't understand the concept of defeat.

Sometimes, people deserve a slap in the face.

I really don't think it is going to be terribly hard for an elite rigger to hop on an alt and puzzle at a 'fine' level, imo. The issue isn't winning/not winning. The issue is awarding substandard effort with extraordinary prizes.
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Game over. Winner: Expel.
Antix says, "Expel just pikachu'd the charizard out of him"
Antix says, "Nice one"
Expel says, "Super effective"

Chimeravirus of Viridian.
[May 3, 2009 7:52:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Just because your posts constitute 90% of the word count, does not mean that when I say "whole thread" I'm referring 90% of my post to what you say.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
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