• Play
  • About
  • News
  • Forums
  • Yppedia
  • Help
Welcome Guest   | Login
  Index  | Recent Threads  | Register  | Search  | Help  | RSS feeds  | View Unanswered Threads  
  Search  


Quick Go »
Thread Status: Normal
Total posts in this thread: 267
Posts: 267   Pages: 9   [ First Page | Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Last Page]
[Add To My Favorites] [Watch this Thread] [Post new Thread]
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 50976 times and has 266 replies Next Thread
Fiddler

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 4619
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

basso wrote: 
Do you have a suggestion as to how this could be possible, without drastically increasing their numbers?

That's actually the point of tan familiars: to drastically increase the numbers while still keeping some "specialness" for the colored ones. *


Shanglan: Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


* New Familiar Plan
----------------------------------------
Orsino, Viridian ocean
Forum-mute: your best friend
Whitewyvern wrote: 
The only high end goals are those you set for yourself. What happens to anyone else is irrelevant.

[May 16, 2009 1:59:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 4171
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Let me just re-emphasize: nobody has a right to win anything, and complaining about the prizes is sour grapes.

I've "complained about" (criticized) prize systems when I've won *first* in competitions. Heck, I've won first through third in one before, and will continue to claim that that should never happen. I'm not the only one who does well and still has issues with competitions; I know Montage has managed to win some competitions that have actually had familiars for prizes. (I seem to manage to come second in an awful lot of those...>_< Some, though, I'd never even sniff the top ten if they were bakeoffs instead of competitions.)

Sour grapes means that I have a problem with *who* wins the prizes - or who doesn't. While I've mentioned the who being a factor, it's about *what* the prizes are as well as *how* they are awarded that I have problems with. If YPP continues in the vein of not rewarding skill, it will lose players that do care about having competitive opportunities. Given the way that a lot of MMOs are designed, this may be a pretty substantial chunk of players - so there is more at stake here for OOO than simply opinions about game design.



Incidentally...there will never be a level playing field in YPP. (And let me re-emphasize: top fine is not a level playing field.) Some people can't/don't play on ice. Other people are simply more naturally adept at puzzles.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Roleni at May 16, 2009 2:16:38 PM]
[May 16, 2009 2:15:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 3156
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
basso wrote: 
Do you have a suggestion as to how this could be possible, without drastically increasing their numbers?

That's actually the point of tan familiars: to drastically increase the numbers while still keeping some "specialness" for the colored ones. *


Excellent point.
 

Shanglan: Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


I agree. Shanglan is right that I was being ridiculous of course. I have to say I am really thinking about things differently now. I certainly haven't changed my mind, but I am trying to think about it in a new way.

 
"All prizes should go to the highest combination o' skill, talent, and hard work. I define familiars as prizes, therefore they should all be awarded in this fashion."


This is close to how I feel, just throw out the hard work part. Its cool if the best people do work hard, but it certainly is not necessarily part of it. I wouldn't begrudge Michael Jordan for being gifted, and I wouldn't begrudge Silverdawg either. I grew up as a rather hard core athlete type, so it is just tough for me to envision winning not being the goal. I certainly think you can have fun either way (my 1-11 Senior year basketball team comes to mind), but I certainly don't see how prizes should not go to those who win.

That said, if we want to go to the full out lottery system, I'll live with it. I'll pine for the good ole days still, but I'll live. Even if we do that, its likely many people will still not have one. What then?
----------------------------------------
Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 16, 2009 2:24:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 10005
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Do you have a suggestion as to how this could be possible, without drastically increasing their numbers?


I proposed some kind of hall of fame over in GD, with one of the options being very rare rewards (e.g. black temporary familiars).

That would allow OOO to continue the trend of "devaluing" familiars whilst offering a viable replacement "elite" thing.
[May 16, 2009 2:46:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Parrrdner

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 7, 2007
Posts: 1371
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
"All prizes should go to the highest combination o' skill, talent, and hard work."

Change this to "Some prizes" and it's what I think. Familiars used to be that prize. Slowly they have become not-that-prize. I'm fine with some things being given out semi-randomly, as long as you reserve something for the highest combination o' skill, talent, and hard work. Anything. I don't care what it is.

I would rather that there were a lot of these things... but at the moment I think we have "OCL Familiars" and that is all, because people don't trade those as freely as other familiars.
----------------------------------------
Pardner; Riot Forever
[but not around :/ these days ]
[May 16, 2009 3:02:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 9, 2005
Posts: 141
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
I agree. Shanglan is right that I was being ridiculous of course. I have to say I am really thinking about things differently now. I certainly haven't changed my mind, but I am trying to think about it in a new way.


Mate, I can't think o' a nicer thing to say or hear on a thread like this, and I thank ye kindly. I promise ye I'm doin' the same, and if ye ever wander over to Cobalt, I'll stand ye a round o' drinks. :)

For the record, I am totally in favor o' prizes continuing to go to those who win through their skills; I would never grudge the folks who enjoy a good, hard competition the pleasure o' it, nor ever suggest that the best puzzlers don't deserve some recognition and tangible rewards. I'm just suggestin' a side-by-side sort o' situation where there's that, plus something else. I honestly respect yer point o' view and I think there's a lot o' merit in it.

And Fiddler, that's mighty kind o' ye. I ain't got a newsletter, but if ye sail Cobalt, feel free to drop by me writin' competition on the events thread if ye just can't get enough o' me. :)
[May 16, 2009 4:45:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tarajayne

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 1311
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Not to beat a dead horse even further but...

YPP should not support socialism. So when little socialist competitions come along and threaten our capitalist society, damn right we are going to make our voices heard.
----------------------------------------
Bridalgirl

I get around.
[May 16, 2009 8:48:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Inschato

Member's Avatar


Joined: May 31, 2006
Posts: 3537
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Not to beat a dead horse even further but...

YPP should not support socialism. So when little socialist competitions come along and threaten our capitalist society, damn right we are going to make our voices heard.

I would like to point out that socialism doesn't generally hand out mansions to the beggars on the street, does it now?

</Iliveinasomewhatsocialistbutmostlycapitalistcountry>

(Canada)
----------------------------------------
-Undisputed Overlord of the Emerald Ocean
[May 16, 2009 8:53:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gillie017

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 3, 2006
Posts: 1043
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
 
Not to beat a dead horse even further but...

YPP should not support socialism. So when little socialist competitions come along and threaten our capitalist society, damn right we are going to make our voices heard.

I would like to point out that socialism doesn't generally hand out mansions to the beggars on the street, does it now?

</Iliveinasomewhatsocialistbutmostlycapitalistcountry>

(Canada)


A socialist philosophy has fixed broken islands in game where capitalism failed hard. Same in real life, look at what all the governments are doing to bail out the failed financial world.
----------------------------------------
If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a Huntard .
[May 17, 2009 10:17:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
OdorOfFrodo

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jan 6, 2007
Posts: 4426
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Not to beat a dead horse even further but...

YPP should not support socialism. So when little socialist competitions come along and threaten our capitalist society, damn right we are going to make our voices heard.

Is this a serious statement?

</Ialsoliveinasomewhatsocialistbutmostlycapitalistcountry>
----------------------------------------
Ecavatar by Ecastasy!
Talisker wrote: 
Obviously this calls for dressing up as Karl Marx.

[May 17, 2009 11:20:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 6, 2006
Posts: 4798
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

This thread has gone from "please don't give familiars as mid-range competition prizes" to "lol socialism".

/failpalm
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 17, 2009 1:34:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 4171
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
A socialist philosophy has fixed broken islands in game where capitalism failed hard. Same in real life, look at what all the governments are doing to bail out the failed financial world.

/failpalm++ >_>
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 18, 2009 2:37:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
blaze1513

Member's Avatar


Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Posts: 576
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

post count +++
----------------------------------------
Mrblaze
Kiadude flag broadcasts, "Punish me baby"
Kiadude flag broadcasts, "Oh wow booch."
[May 18, 2009 7:21:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Meganum



Joined: Jun 3, 2009
Posts: 19
Status: Offline

Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I really hate to add fuel to the fire, but you have to admit it's kind of ironic. Usually people who do fine or around that point get ridiculed by everyone else, usually more skilled people, yet the same people getting ridiculed are getting prizes the more skilled people contest furiously to gain.

Anyway I guess giving less skilled people fams is kind of to help them, either for money or some kind of symbol of being in a contest and winning it or something.

I may be sounding like I'm trying to make it sound fair for the fact half the puzzles that are non-carousing I couldn't get better than a good on to save my life, but I'm not. Really though you all used to suck at puzzles at some point, you have to admit that, and wanted to have a fair chance at getting a prize, probably. Well, here's the chance you wanted back then yet now you get mad at people because they get it.
[Jun 20, 2009 9:29:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 16105
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Um, actually, my concerns were pretty much addressed with the introduction of monthly familiar competitions for the core puzzlers.

Thanks for the bump, though. ;-)
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jun 20, 2009 3:01:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 9, 2005
Posts: 141
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Really though you all used to suck at puzzles at some point, you have to admit that, and wanted to have a fair chance at getting a prize, probably.


Ye know, I been thinkin' over this question o' fairness as I've paged through the thread on bankin' in poker, as well. It seemed to me that between that thread and this, there was an interestin' variety of implied definitions o' fairness, and that that is at the heart o' some o' the difference o' opinion. Consider how differently ye might feel about various sorts o' rules and competitions dependin' on which o' these definitions o' fair ye happen to use:

"Fair means everyone follows the same rules." Under that definition o' fairness, a number o' people have defended bankin' in poker, as it ain't against the rules at the moment and as everyone has the same opportunity to bank. In that sense o' the word, it is fair, although it changes the nature o' the game considerably. Similarly, under this definition o' "fair," any competition awardin' its prizes to the top puzzler is fair, even if that means that a small number o' people win over and over, and heaps o' other people got no real chance.

Since not everyone likes that definition o' fair, we end up with others:

"Fair means everyone has a chance to win." Choosin' the top fair means that that is possible; for some people, that seems more "fair" in the sense o' "more evenly distributin' prized goods amongst the general population." Atlantis booty hauls seem to work at least in part this way. It's not a definition o' "fair" that necessarily sends the prized goods to the most skilled puzzler each time, but then, that ain't part o' the definition o' "fair" that parents use when urgin' their kids to share toys or that adults use when dividin' up housework, either. This definition is more about openin' up opportunity to a wider range o' folk.

"Fair means that everyone has an equal chance to win." This really only works in a straight, one-ticket-per-customer lottery. It takes the competition out o' the matter, which could be a good thing or a bad thing dependin' on how ye view the matter. This is the definition o' "fair" we apply to things like roulette wheels or poker deals bein' "fair." On the one hand, it don't reward any particular behavior; on the other hand, it's 'fair" in the sense that a lottery be fair, and gives every player an equal chance to hope o' winnin' it.

"Fair means that everyone gets a chance to enjoy the game." Interestin'ly, at least to me, that ain't a definition ye often see in high-stakes competitions in real life, but it is one that some o' the competition-keen folks have evoked in the argument over poker. If ye look at things this way, it ain't fair to bank in poker, even if the rules don't forbid it, because it means that ye're preventin' other people from enjoyin' the game as they would like to play it, as bankin' lets people turn poker into something more like slot machines. On the other hand, ye could also take this definition to mean that it ain't fair to restrict familiar awards to the top individual puzzler in each competition, as that means that all o' the less-skilled puzzlers without any chance o' winnin' never get to enjoy the game they want to play, which be a game in which they got some hope o' ever havin' a familiar.

Now, personally, I can see good arguments for all o' those approaches. All I'd like to point out is that it's a good idea for all o' us to remember that these different definitions exist, and to ask ourselves if we're usin' the same one each time in our own approaches to things. I'll humbly suggest that in comparin' the arguments on these two issues - poker bankin' and familiar awards from contests - I ain't seen the most amazing clarity and cosistency o' definition in players' arguments between 'em, and that we might want to consider whether our definitions o' what's fair might be slidin' about a bit to suit what benefits our own selves.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Shanglan at Jun 20, 2009 3:24:11 PM]
[Jun 20, 2009 3:18:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Darkmike2

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 21, 2008
Posts: 37
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I disagree with this protest.

Yes, i know you guys don't think that it was a very fair descision but i do! Because :
1. It gives those not so good at puzzles a chance to win perhaps.
2. It gives a change to the competition not just Incredibles and Excellents all the time.
3. Makes the competition more challenging for pirates to try get them to get Fine's and not good's etc.

Basically im just saying it gives those that practise and practise over and over again but still they don't seem to get much better at it as they were when they began, a chance to practise more and feel more confident about the puzzle.
I do have to say i am one of them. ^^

Im not bad at rigging myself although i weren't as good when this competition was on... Yes, rigging appears to now be my favourite station but it just builds the confidence of those not as good as others. And makes them feel as if maybe they can win something someday. Instead of having to work your shoes off to get an Excellent or Incred!
----------------------------------------
Angelbex
Viridian
SO in 'Anni's Crystal Charm'
Lady in the flag 'The Black Crystal'
[Oct 25, 2009 10:17:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ppplushies

Member's Avatar


Joined: Aug 24, 2005
Posts: 2335
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Despite the bump, I'll bite.

The fact is, familiars aren't meant for ever pirate to get. Familiars are one of the highest achievements you can get in this game, and should be given out accordingly. When someone is given a familiar for a Fine, it gives everyone else no incentive to get better, and for everyone who is already really good, it gives no incentive to continue to play.
----------------------------------------
Kadazzle
[Oct 25, 2009 5:19:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randompanzy

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 10, 2006
Posts: 1812
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Despite the bump, I'll bite.

The fact is, familiars aren't meant for ever pirate to get. Familiars are one of the highest achievements you can get in this game, and should be given out accordingly. When someone is given a familiar for a Fine, it gives everyone else no incentive to get better, and for everyone who is already really good, it gives no incentive to continue to play.


a familiar was given out for fine already.

do you still have incentive to play?

yes? i thought so. a few familiars given out for "fine" is okay it doesnt affect YPP or how the game works in the slightest as they are still valuable and nothing has changed from when they were given out
----------------------------------------
Randompanzy from Viridian now sailing on Obsidian
SO of Lion's Roar
Titled Member of Placeholder
The views on my post are of my own and not my flag.

 
Tranquilized says, u kno yer notorious for lagging? xD

[Oct 26, 2009 6:03:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.teamepsilon.net    phillip1904    GB Fayt    I'm a little kitty that goes MOO! :D [Link]  Go to top 
tamtitam

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 25, 2005
Posts: 9
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Top fine = Luck.


Top fine isn't "luck". Winning a familiar for it, on the other hand, is.
----------------------------------------
- Catie on Midnight
[Feb 23, 2010 2:56:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nooblar

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 17, 2005
Posts: 3829
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Top fine really is luck, honestly. Top anything other than incred, is at least 50% luck.

Also, its normally a good idea to check post dates. You revived a thread that is several months old, with a post that doesn't really add much to the discussion.
----------------------------------------
Nooblar and/or Nerdbeard on Sage/Emerald
Cartrunner wrote: 

<3
Dear forum alt: since you inquired, no, I do not endorse ban evasion.

Tilinkatar!
[Feb 23, 2010 5:12:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Deceptive

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jan 15, 2009
Posts: 2872
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Because if you're not elite, you're lucky!

No seriously, there are 6 different levels of player skill


Incredibles

Excellents

Goods

Fines

Poors

Booches

In each section, there are a bunch of pirates, Sure, the fines aren't better than the incredible people, but if they get top fine, they used their best skill to get the top fine.

Not luck, but a different level of skill.
----------------------------------------
I honestly don't care anymore.
[Feb 26, 2010 10:18:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Furarri

Member's Avatar


Joined: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 943
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I think the luck thing is how do you make yourself score 22nd out of 130. It's not possible to calculate how good (or bad) you have to do to get the top of a fine and still not go over into the bottom of good. Whereas if you are really great at the puzzle you have a better shot at aiming for the best score out of all competitors. Skill over luck there.
----------------------------------------
 
 
.... submarines are out!
Slimbottom won't like this at all.

Awesome avatar by Terrify! Thanks!
[Feb 26, 2010 10:36:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Searmin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 23, 2007
Posts: 1890
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Sure, the fines aren't better than the incredible people, but if they get top fine, they used their best skill to get the top fine.

My captain won top Fine in the sails/carp comp this morning. When I logged on tonight, she asked me how she did it. I told her I didn't know, I wasn't there.

Apparently she got an incredible in carpentry and didn't even bother with sails. And that averaged out to top fine.

Yeah, I'm saying it's pure luck.
----------------------------------------
Searmin

Conversations from the One Ring sloop:
 
Searmin says, "Okay, we're gonna sail this ship right into Mount Doom"
Dracina says," One does not simply sail into Mordor"

[Feb 26, 2010 4:22:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fossaman

Member's Avatar


Joined: Apr 26, 2005
Posts: 377
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I have to agree. Luck all the way. After all, Top Fine is essentially the same thing as Bottom Good. And Bottom Good doesn't get any prizes, now do they?
----------------------------------------
Fossaman on the Viridian Ocean, SO of Still of the Night.

Avatar by Claresta

Rhodin wrote: 
I'm sure they'd also argue that you couldn't properly cantilever a gun deck over the hood of a giant mutant nautilus, too.

[Feb 28, 2010 1:53:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Killrburrito



Joined: Oct 8, 2009
Posts: 299
Status: Offline

Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I still cant get how some of those increds get so high I have sat there for ages during bilge and rigs tourneys breaking some rather huge combos nonstop but yet it usually nails me in like maybe a top 30-40 spot on the incred lists everyone is always telling me there arent any exploits in this scoring system but after some of those increds I have gotten I am not convinced
----------------------------------------
Partially retired and completely stupid.
[Feb 28, 2010 2:07:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

Member's Avatar


Joined: Nov 21, 2007
Posts: 2837
Status: Offline
Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

As constructive input, and a response to Blar's post.

Anything but incred is complete luck, since you can't determine how high you want to get. Distilling is an exception since you can booch for the highest excellent, not a technique i'm gonna discuss on the forums.
Anything but incredible is 100% luck, since you can try to score for a top fine, but you can't accurately judge how much you'll need to score for it.
----------------------------------------
Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Feb 28, 2010 3:54:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Posts: 267   Pages: 9   [ First Page | Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 | Last Page]
[Show Printable Version of Thread] [Post new Thread]

Puzzle Pirates™ © 2001-2016 Grey Havens, LLC All Rights Reserved.   Terms · Privacy · Affiliates