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Quack_688



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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Duke Nukem: Forever Finally Gone Gold! In Stores June 16th!

I would have preferred a new first-person shooter pillager with pig-cops and strippers. But this is pretty cool. Thanks.

Wildturkey, Malachite
[May 12, 2009 10:50:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Moving a piece back and forth to keep your sails dead requires very little skill.

Your analogy fails miserably.

Arguably a derail, but need I remind you that the bird was for Top Fine, not Top Booched.
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Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[May 13, 2009 2:02:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Grinfish

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Moving a piece back and forth to keep your sails dead requires very little skill.

Your analogy fails miserably.

Arguably a derail, but need I remind you that the bird was for Top Fine, not Top Booched.

Surely that would result in bottom Booched?

Oops, where did the tracks go...
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Unretired, still No regrets.
Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.

Briggs wrote: 
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[May 13, 2009 8:51:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Moving a piece back and forth to keep your sails dead requires very little skill.

Your analogy fails miserably.

Arguably a derail, but need I remind you that the bird was for Top Fine, not Top Booched.

/chuckle

The point is, giving analogies in which the same kinds of skills are required, but a different approach don't apply to top fine.

If we're talking about forcing a way to make top fine a matter of skill, then arguably the optimal way to do that is to perform at the top possible score for X amount of time and alternate it with booched moves for Y amount. In that case the person that is the best is the most well-equipped to win anyway, making all arguments *for* top fine pretty silly; we might as well do a bakeoff if only to avoid the negative PR effects for OOO. ;)
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[May 13, 2009 11:03:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Just a word from one o' the Great Unwashed, that bein' those o' us who will never win a familiar with our puzzlin' skills, for reasons various and sundry ...

I think it's great that there are familiar tourneys that reward people who excel at the puzzles. Ye deserve 'em, and well done to ye. However, I'd think ye might rein in yer protests just a bit on this one instance - the only one I've ever heard of - in which the prize didn't go to the top scorer. True, it's a surprise, and people don't always like surprises, but what is it really? It's one case - one single case - in which ye ended up without a chance to win.

Some o' us have played for years knowin' we ain't got a chance to win. Ever. And we live with that and enjoy the game for what it is. I'm not complainin'; it's grand that people with the highest skills get rewarded for them. But might ye perhaps step back and consider that as little as ye like havin' *one* tourney in which ye had no chance, the vast majority of the players have that experience every single tourney.

I'm postin' here just to put in a word for those of us - the overwhelmin' majority o' the players - who are in that position. Because when ye're busy postin' angrily that you're considerin' unsubscribin', I think that it's worth pointin' out that most o' the people in my position - the ones who ain't got a prayer o' winnin' against the highest skilled players - don't tend to post angrily that we're quittin'. Some o' us, like me, just quietly enjoy the game and learn to accept that there are things in it we can't have. The rest tend to slip quietly away and let their subs drop without troublin' the rest o' ye on the forums.

Personally, I still like to play. Puzzle Pirates is still a great game. Perhaps those o' ye angrily lashin' out on this thread could find it in yer hearts and tempers to enjoy the game as well without takin' as a personal grievance your one taste o' the way the rest o' the ocean experiences pretty much every tourney.
[May 14, 2009 4:43:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Except that the odds are good, as was pointed out either above or in the other thread on the same subject, that the best puzzlers, if they are willing, are most likely to be able to achieve 'top fine', to whatever extent it isn't just a lottery. So you actually didn't have that good a chance to win--but you're fooled into thinking you do. It's just rewarding a different application of puzzling skill and knowledge. The odds were still in favor of the good players, limited only by their willingness to deliberately booch their score.

Further, your argument that you will never win a familiar with your skills is somewhat thin. I've seen many a player over my years in the game go from a consistent liability on duty stations to excellents and incredibles, given enough effort and a few pointers in the right direction.

So I don't find either of your premises terribly compelling.
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I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 14, 2009 5:06:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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How many times will people miss the point? Its cool if you don't agree with the point, but at least don't misrepresent it.

 


I think it's great that there are familiar tourneys that reward people who excel at the puzzles. Ye deserve 'em, and well done to ye. However, I'd think ye might rein in yer protests just a bit on this one instance - the only one I've ever heard of - in which the prize didn't go to the top scorer. True, it's a surprise, and people don't always like surprises, but what is it really? It's one case - one single case - in which ye ended up without a chance to win.


Everyone has a chance to win, whether it is top incredible or top fine. That is not the point at all. I just personally believe in the spirit of competition, and I like to see the best prize go to the best performer. I am not protesting this out of any self-interest at all. It has nothing to do with any of us as individuals. It is more an ideal, or a principle. I simply want things to go to those who earn them. I want people to be motivated to do their best, not sink to their worst.
 

Some o' us have played for years knowin' we ain't got a chance to win. Ever. And we live with that and enjoy the game for what it is. I'm not complainin'; it's grand that people with the highest skills get rewarded for them. But might ye perhaps step back and consider that as little as ye like havin' *one* tourney in which ye had no chance, the vast majority of the players have that experience every single tourney.


I have no chance of winning a TD tournament. I have no chance of winning a SF tournament. I have no chance of winning a gunning bakeoff. This doesn't bother me at all, because I don't want to win things unless I am the best. I also have not protested any of these just because "I don't have a chance to win them". If I am not the best anymore, I'll quite happily never win another familiar. I simply want the best prizes to go to the best performers.
 

I'm postin' here just to put in a word for those of us - the overwhelmin' majority o' the players - who are in that position. Because when ye're busy postin' angrily that you're considerin' unsubscribin', I think that it's worth pointin' out that most o' the people in my position - the ones who ain't got a prayer o' winnin' against the highest skilled players - don't tend to post angrily that we're quittin'. Some o' us, like me, just quietly enjoy the game and learn to accept that there are things in it we can't have. The rest tend to slip quietly away and let their subs drop without troublin' the rest o' ye on the forums.


I truly respect those who simply play the game. I am not so different from that myself. However, when I feel passionate about something, I speak up. I certainly wouldn't stop playing because I didn't win something. Honestly though, a little bit of the game died for me, because that spirit of competition that I love so much was tarnished. Now people don't have to agree with this, some do, others don't. Please don't act like we are throwing selfish tantrums though. I simply have an ideal that I thought the game should keep living up to. If it doesn't, oh well, but I'll speak my mind about it, as will others.
 

Personally, I still like to play. Puzzle Pirates is still a great game.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, it is such a great game, that I care about it and want it to continue being great. Personally, I think an attitude of entitlement is a problem in the player base, and having such competitions as "Mine that Bird" will only increase this. Many players likely asked, "why not me?" once it was over. I'd rather have a group of players that is motivated to reach high, instead of waiting for someone to hand them something for staying low.

 

Perhaps those o' ye angrily lashin' out on this thread could find it in yer hearts and tempers to enjoy the game as well without takin' as a personal grievance your one taste o' the way the rest o' the ocean experiences pretty much every tourney.


It seems to me that both sides of this discussion have gotten personal at times. I certainly have directed no animosity towards the winner of this competition on any ocean. I simply resent the philosophy behind it. Once again, its cool if people don't agree, but I do wish they could stop distorting what we say. Its quite possible to be happy that someone else won something nice. I simply want to cheer on someone for reaching the top, instead of tripping over an imaginary boundary near the bottom.

By the way, a hearty of mine won her first colored familiar today in distilling. She is a terrific puzzler, and an even nicer person. She has never had millions, or run shoppes or islands either. She just plays the game of distilling at a high level, and finally things lined up for her. I was honestly more excited for her, than for any of the familiars I have won. It is a great feeling to see someone else truly reach the top, and win something they have worked so hard to get.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 14, 2009 5:49:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Except that the odds are good, as was pointed out either above or in the other thread on the same subject, that the best puzzlers, if they are willing, are most likely to be able to achieve 'top fine', to whatever extent it isn't just a lottery. So you actually didn't have that good a chance to win--but you're fooled into thinking you do.


No, I ain't. My post never said I had the slightest chance o' winnin' that one either. I addressed solely and specifically the issue o' people gettin' angry that *they* didn't get a chance to win. That's a pretty common experience for me, so I'm familiar with it.

 
Further, your argument that you will never win a familiar with your skills is somewhat thin. I've seen many a player over my years in the game go from a consistent liability on duty stations to excellents and incredibles, given enough effort and a few pointers in the right direction.


I been playin' the game for three years and more now. But how about we agree that you don't know my personal abilities and liabilities, and I don't know yours?

 
How many times will people miss the point? Its cool if you don't agree with the point, but at least don't misrepresent it.


I ain't tryin' to misrepresent it. Just bear in mind that I'm replyin' to ten pages o' thread and not ye personally, aye?

 
Everyone has a chance to win, whether it is top incredible or top fine. That is not the point at all. I just personally believe in the spirit of competition, and I like to see the best prize go to the best performer. I am not protesting this out of any self-interest at all. It has nothing to do with any of us as individuals. It is more an ideal, or a principle. I simply want things to go to those who earn them. I want people to be motivated to do their best, not sink to their worst.


I hear what ye're sayin'. But given that pretty much ever single other bake-off and competition has run this way, I just can't see a reason for other people - not ye personally - goin' to the point o' insinuatin' that they're gonna unsub simply because this single event went more by luck.

 
I have no chance of winning a TD tournament. I have no chance of winning a SF tournament. I have no chance of winning a gunning bakeoff. This doesn't bother me at all, because I don't want to win things unless I am the best. I also have not protested any of these just because "I don't have a chance to win them". If I am not the best anymore, I'll quite happily never win another familiar. I simply want the best prizes to go to the best performers.


And that's a grand attitude. It's the one I apply to my comprehensive lack o' chance to win anything at any tourney. My brain just ain't clocked fast enough. All I'm sayin' it, that's one way to make people happy and have a little fun. Another way is occasionally to have a surprise and let chance play some o' the role. I don't think it's hurtin' anyone to have that happen once in a rare while.

 
Honestly though, a little bit of the game died for me, because that spirit of competition that I love so much was tarnished. Now people don't have to agree with this, some do, others don't. Please don't act like we are throwing selfish tantrums though. I simply have an ideal that I thought the game should keep living up to. If it doesn't, oh well, but I'll speak my mind about it, as will others.


I'm glad ye like the spirit o' competition. All I'm askin' is that ye remember that it's not the sole thing that everyone playin' the game enjoys - and now and then, it won't kill those o' ye who love a really ambitious, competitive way o' playin' to let one or two little prizes fall to those who enjoy the game for other reasons.

 
I couldn't agree more. In fact, it is such a great game, that I care about it and want it to continue being great. Personally, I think an attitude of entitlement is a problem in the player base, and having such competitions as "Mine that Bird" will only increase this. Many players likely asked, "why not me?" once it was over. I'd rather have a group of players that is motivated to reach high, instead of waiting for someone to hand them something for staying low.


But this is a game and not a career. So the point is actually to have fun and not just to climb to the top o' the flagpole. I ain't got a problem with motivatin' people to do that if that's what they like; I just don't think it's necessary that that be the *only* way things ever get judged, seein' as some of us ain't ever gonna be there, motivation or none.

 
By the way, a hearty of mine won her first colored familiar today in distilling. She is a terrific puzzler, and an even nicer person. She has never had millions, or run shoppes or islands either. She just plays the game of distilling at a high level, and finally things lined up for her. I was honestly more excited for her, than for any of the familiars I have won. It is a great feeling to see someone else truly reach the top, and win something they have worked so hard to get.


Absolutely. That's why I ain't ever suggested changin' the vast majority o' familiar puzzle competitions run - in fact, every single one but the one we're discussin' - goin' to the highest score. I'm just sayin' that it ain't an irretrievable grievance to throw in the occasional game o' chance.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Shanglan at May 14, 2009 6:40:50 PM]
[May 14, 2009 6:36:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Thanks for the reply mate, you make some really good points. I certainly don't think this competition was the end of the world, it just tarnished the idea of competitions for me. I also don't think everyone needs to or should reach for the top. The thing is, if you want a familiar, yes you should be reaching.

I suppose my main gripe is two-fold. First, the simple idea that the top prize ought to go to the top competitor. Second, the attitude of entitlement that I see in the world, and in this game (not you though, you seem to have a nice grasp of things). I mean if people are casual and just play for fun, why does it matter if they can't win a familiar? That is what makes this game so great actually! You can have very casual players playing alongside and with hardcore types. My issue is when the casual players want hardcore rewards for their casual effort/skill level. I am all for including people, motivating them, helping them, but not giving them things. People often ask me for poe, instead I offer to tutor them on any puzzle they choose. Most turn me down :)
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 14, 2009 6:54:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Thanks for the reply mate, you make some really good points. I certainly don't think this competition was the end of the world, it just tarnished the idea of competitions for me. I also don't think everyone needs to or should reach for the top. The thing is, if you want a familiar, yes you should be reaching.


Thank ye very much for respondin' in a pleasant and thoughtful fashion. Can't be a bad sign when we can at least hash this sort o' thing out over a few mugs o' suds. :)

Here's the difference in how ye and I look at familiars - and I ain't sayin' either o' us is right or wrong, but that the difference is important to how we view this contest and how it was run. Ye appear to me, from yer post above, to view familiars as bein' rightfully a prize reserved for the mightiest pirates with the highest skills. I see 'em as something that is a neat, rare item that would be nifty to have, and not necessarily as sayin' anything else about a pirate.

That's why we see this differently, I think. I see that it gives the item some cachet to ye for it to be a prize only given to the best players, but to me it's neat simply because it's neat - and therefore, I'd be happy to see some lowly cabin boy whose only distinguishing feature is in fact that he's got a little friend he's happy with. I kind of like the idea o' the little people occasionally strikin' lucky, and I think that that concept is as reasonably a part o' the piratey world as the mighty people takin' most o' the swag.

I agree with ye on the concept o' entitlement, and I ain't one to hand out cash to greenies either. However, I don't think that it's impossible to occasionally have windfalls for less skilled players without having a heap o' tarting about what's fair and who got what - or I should say, without more than there is. There's plenty already; I heard an earful of it today as I was distillin' away without a hope in the world, and the chats I was on were loaded with people complaining that no one else ever had a chance at the competitions and that the top four or five people always seemed to win.

I ain't sayin' that that attitude is delightful, but when ye're doin' your best time and again and never crackin' the top twenty, and other people have multiple familiars, it is hard for some people to keep their tempers about 'em and not feel a bit hurt. It means a lot to those o' us who ain't got a chance at top incredible to have some little scrap o' luck doled out now and then, because a lot o' us work right hard at our stations. It ain't lack o' effort; we just ain't in the top ten percent o' wits and reflexes we'd need to have any shot at a competition.
[May 14, 2009 9:15:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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I think it's important to remember that this competition was not a sign of things to come. It was a once off, and probably should have simply been overlooked by people who got upset by it.
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[May 14, 2009 10:10:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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I think it's important to remember that this competition was not a sign of things to come. It was a once off, and probably should have simply been overlooked by people who got upset by it.


Aye you are most likely right. This is confusing, but the actual competition itself was not the problem. I think people are quite justified in standing up for the spirit of true competition, and likewise others are justified in saying that more unique ways of awarding prizes are cool. It doesn't have to be a "zomg sore losers!" thing, and I am glad we have gotten past that.

As far as overlooking insignificant things, I disagree. If you care about the environment for instance, you don't overlook a candy bar wrapper on the street, you go pick it up. I mean one little wrapper won't do any harm right? Of course it won't, but it you believe in an idea, you have to follow through on it consistently. So yes, whether you agree of disagree, it always bothers me on a gut level when the prizes for 4th are better than 1st, or top fine is better than top incredible. I spoke up about the egg tournaments (when people were losing on purpose to get OM eggs), and I'll speak up about anything else similar. I realize some people will disagree (and possibly say nasty things) and I can deal with that too. I get disappointed when things turn nasty, but I am used to it. I just like when people engage in actual discussion, like my new favorite poster Shanglan.

Shanglan, you are quite correct about the way we each view familiars. I suppose the only thing is that I am perfectly fine with people buying them off of others. I simply want the best prize to go to the best performer. If they want to sell it to a poker tart or whatever, that is completely up to them. So in that way, any player on a dub ocean could get any familiar, even just from buying lots of dubs. To me, there is a huge difference between having and winning a familiar. Since having one is not the mark of extraordinary skill anymore, I'd like winning one to remain that way. If it doesn't, no big deal really. I'll still keep playing this game, because its fun. Just like I'll keep discussing things, because I enjoy it.

On the subject of more random windfalls to "average" players, I believe we have SMHs for that. I have seen several very average puzzlers get sea horses, crabs, or rare furniture from Atlantis trips. I don't like it in principle, but I have learned to just say "congrats" to the person when it happens. I sincerely do want to motivate and encourage other players, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Overall, I resent the whole attitude (not anyone here btw) of how the puzzles are so hard, and some people are born good. I'm not "lucky" and I wasn't born with the ultimate birthright. I actually enjoy puzzling, figuring things out, testing things, improving things, etc. I worked my booty off to understand bilge better. I know not everyone can be ultimate, but many people could perform much better if they learned the scoring system of each puzzle. You can't hope to succeed by showing up and randomly clicking around. It goes back to my point about hardcore rewards for casual play. /rant
----------------------------------------
Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 15, 2009 7:50:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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I think people are quite justified in standing up for the spirit of true competition, and likewise others are justified in saying that more unique ways of awarding prizes are cool. It doesn't have to be a "zomg sore losers!" thing, and I am glad we have gotten past that.


Aye, I think you're right there, and I'm much obliged for your kind words to me. It's always nice hearin' the best case to be made for an opposin' viewpoint and getting a chance to see how it works, rather than people just slingin' mud and guff at each other. We might not agree, but it's nice to be able to understand and respect another point o' view.

 
Shanglan, you are quite correct about the way we each view familiars. I suppose the only thing is that I am perfectly fine with people buying them off of others. I simply want the best prize to go to the best performer. If they want to sell it to a poker tart or whatever, that is completely up to them. So in that way, any player on a dub ocean could get any familiar, even just from buying lots of dubs.


Aye, it's a fair point, and one that from time to time makes me wonder if I ought to be playin' a dubloon ocean. Fortunately, me live-in fellow pirate is here to give me the Scowl o' Doom on the topic o' disbursin' household finances for the purchase o' cute little octopi. ;)

 
On the subject of more random windfalls to "average" players, I believe we have SMHs for that. I have seen several very average puzzlers get sea horses, crabs, or rare furniture from Atlantis trips. I don't like it in principle, but I have learned to just say "congrats" to the person when it happens. I sincerely do want to motivate and encourage other players, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.


Ye know, I'm glad ye mentioned this, because to me Atlantis and the Cursed Isles are an example of a great way to offer something for both yer point o' view and mine. What I like in Atlantis is that I have got a strong motivation to do me job well, and I get some chance o' reward for doin' me best. It's very rare for me to hit top o' a duty or an incred, but if I really sweat at it I can do it once or twice in a voyage and maybe get a chest for "Amazin'" or "Outstandin'," and I have a chance o' a "Consistent" or two as well. And, of course, in the big picture, if I work me hardest, the ship comes in safe with more chests, and I have some random chance o' somethin' nice out o' one of 'em once in a great while.

I realize that to ye, that's still not rewardin' the best, because ye're lookin' at "best" as defined by who's the best on the ship or in the competition. However, consider this: it's rewardin' my best. My personal best in most things ain't much; I got one o' the best scores o' me life in distillin' yesterday and it placed me 26 out of somethin' like 33. But if I'm to have an incentive to do me best, I need some hope o' it ever bein' rewarded. What I like about the Atlantis and Cursed Isle setups is that someone who is honestly workin' hard and doin' his very best does get a better chance o' reward than a slacker, and he has some hope o' somethin' nice even if he's standin' next to the top stationer on the ocean. I think it's a very nicely thought out system. The best puzzlers on the ship are still likely to get the most, but any individual workin' his level hardest has a chance at something, and anyone havin' one o' his best days is gonna have a better shot at prizes than if he'd lazed.

 
Overall, I resent the whole attitude (not anyone here btw) of how the puzzles are so hard, and some people are born good. I'm not "lucky" and I wasn't born with the ultimate birthright. I actually enjoy puzzling, figuring things out, testing things, improving things, etc. I worked my booty off to understand bilge better. I know not everyone can be ultimate, but many people could perform much better if they learned the scoring system of each puzzle. You can't hope to succeed by showing up and randomly clicking around. It goes back to my point about hardcore rewards for casual play. /rant


*laugh* Well, thanks for the /rant so I knew when to come out o' hidin'. :)

I agree with ye that pretty much everyone can improve; in the three plus years I been playin' here, I've gotten a lot better at most stations, and I have certainly seen my care and study o' the games repaid with higher scores. I think, too, that no one just walks into an Ult standin' o' any duration; like ye say, ye gotta work yer booty off. The thing is, though, even though I have worked me own personal booty off and gotten some o' me skills up to a level where I can pretty consistently score Excellents with a rare Incredible now and then, it ain't enough. It ain't remotely enough to win a competition, and it ain't ever likely to be.

I realize we're in delicate territory when we talk about why some people are better at puzzles than others, because the two biggest lies on the ocean are that it's all luck or birthright and that it's all skill and practice, and both o' em have a lot of people invested in them and angry that people adherin' to the other perspective won't agree with 'em. I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Or, actually, in this rare case I know that the truth is somewhere in the middle, because I live with another pirate and watch that pirate puzzle. There are any number o' puzzles in which I can understand the theory o' what me fellow pirate is doin', and if I had four or five times as long to work out me moves, I might be able to do the same. But I just can't process the information that fast. I can't even follow it fast enough to see how the individual moves me mate is makin' fit together most o' the time; I gotta sit down with a tutorial with still images. It ain't a case o' not knowin' the theory, rules, and strategy o' the game; it's just me mind not bein' able to grip the images and turn 'em into information fast enough. And even watchin' videos that other pirates have made, I see the same truth playin' out again: they're faster than I am. Me brain just don't work fast enough to beat 'em.

I ain't bitter about that. I'm glad they have the skills, and I ain't got a problem with havin' a "Slow Pirate at Play" sign stuck to me head. However, I think I'm a pretty good poster child for the pirate who studies the games, works his level hardest, practices and learns all he can, but simply ain't got a chance at a high-level competition. I can get better than I was, yes. But I ain't ever gonna match someone whose brain is clocked twice the speed o' mine, so I got a real appreciation for the occasional event that might give someone like me any sort o' chance.
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basso

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You are correct, the truth is most certainly in the middle. Personally I tend to lean towards the "skill and practice side", but that might be my own bias creeping in. I firmly believe everyone can improve, and it seems we agree on that. Actually I am not very fast myself, and I tend to excel at puzzles in which you can take your time (Alchemistry, Bilge, Blacksmith, Shipwright). I guess that shows good game design, that there are different types of puzzles that require different skills (speed, planning, pattern recognition, etc). For just about everything else, I agree. I'd just add that doing your best should be its own reward.
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OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Z1Q

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I guess that shows good game design, that there are different types of puzzles that require different skills (speed, planning, pattern recognition, etc). For just about everything else, I agree. I'd just add that doing your best should be its own reward.

You sum it up to well.
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[May 15, 2009 10:02:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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You are correct, the truth is most certainly in the middle. Personally I tend to lean towards the "skill and practice side", but that might be my own bias creeping in. I firmly believe everyone can improve, and it seems we agree on that. Actually I am not very fast myself, and I tend to excel at puzzles in which you can take your time (Alchemistry, Bilge, Blacksmith, Shipwright). I guess that shows good game design, that there are different types of puzzles that require different skills (speed, planning, pattern recognition, etc). For just about everything else, I agree. I'd just add that doing your best should be its own reward.


Definitely one o' the things that keeps me comin' back to Puzzle Pirates is what ye mentioned - that variation in the types o' games that lets people with different skills and ways o' puzzlin' find something that appeals to them. I really enjoyed the addition o' the riggin' puzzle for that reason - both as a way that people who ain't wired for sailin' can find a way to contribute, and as a nice switch-off when I've sailed 'til I'm goin' blind with little fallin' knots.

On that last note, though, I might just add a couple words o' me own. One is that it's a site easier to feel that doin' yer best is its own reward when it ain't the only reward you're ever goin' to see. The other is that that argument do cut both ways. That is, if doin' yer best is yer own reward, then it oughtn't to matter to ye, any more than to me, how rewards are structured. They'd be irrelevent.

Now that ain't me coppin' attitude with ye; it's just recognizin' that tied up in our two different approaches to what's most fun in the game is two different sorts o' reward systems. Still, I don't think we're all that far off. We'd both like to see hard work and skill rewarded; I'd just like to put in a word for dogged persistence as well, as that's mostly what some o' us got to offer. :)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Shanglan at May 15, 2009 3:26:33 PM]
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ssandv



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I'm still confused about how your speed of thought issues interfere with say, alchemistry or ironmongery. But no matter, that's really tangential.

Point for discussion:
Would this still have caused as much trouble if it had been grouped by "skill rating as of last night's reboot, minimum solid experience" (maybe more than solid, that was pulled out of my booty) instead of "best in each duty performance category"? Since it was a one-off, with no advance warning, it would be (somewhat) difficult to game, but allow people to compete with, nominally, their own skill group--but it would reward the people within those groups who had the best performance on that day, rather than the highly skilled people who managed the cleverest semi-booch.
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I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

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Dylan

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Point for discussion


Normal (RL) competitions are typically run between people of similar standards. Usain Bolt won't be competing in the under-14 sprint, let alone the fathers and sons three-legged-race.

I've agreed enough times that the timing (during a blockade) wasn't so great, but I think the points this mate are making are very cogent:

There has to be the potential for a bit of luck for those who aren't great puzzlers.

I personally don't feel I have a chance of winning one, and I've had 10 different ultimates at times. I refuse to play poker until I'm rich enough to afford one, and I've won (and lost or spent) millions at the poker tables.

Frankly, I'd like to see an ULTRA SUPER UNTRADEABLE doohicky, could be a new "upgradeable" familiar or something else very special, and make one way of getting them trading in personally won tan familiars.
[May 15, 2009 4:26:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Point for discussion:
Would this still have caused as much trouble if it had been grouped by "skill rating as of last night's reboot, minimum solid experience" (maybe more than solid, that was pulled out of my booty) instead of "best in each duty performance category"? Since it was a one-off, with no advance warning, it would be (somewhat) difficult to game, but allow people to compete with, nominally, their own skill group--but it would reward the people within those groups who had the best performance on that day, rather than the highly skilled people who managed the cleverest semi-booch.


Aye, I like that idea - or anything else that makes some space to reward people who are pressin' their own best work upwards.

In fact, bearin' in mind that I do agree with Basso that it's always a nice thing to reward some sort of positive behavior, I think it'd be neat to have special no-notice one-offs open to people with high experience but not so great ratings, by way o' recognizin' that even if they ain't skilled, there's a lot o' booty-haulin' been put in. Or maybe a no-notice that offers prizes to whoever improves his or her score the most within the measured period.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Shanglan at May 15, 2009 4:37:58 PM]
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basso

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Briefly, I like the last few posts here quite a bit. A few responses:

 
There has to be the potential for a bit of luck for those who aren't great puzzlers.


The current competition format already has this. Currently for competitions, the game looks at your single best duty report, and it only takes your highest. So someone who goes on one high "lucky" streak, can beat someone who has a much higher overall "puzzling session".

 
On that last note, though, I might just add a couple words o' me own. One is that it's a site easier to feel that doin' yer best is its own reward when it ain't the only reward you're ever goin' to see. The other is that that argument do cut both ways. That is, if doin' yer best is yer own reward, then it oughtn't to matter to ye, any more than to me, how rewards are structured. They'd be irrelevent.


Simply put, this is an excellent point. The response is that I don't care who wins, as long as they win for being the best. If I give something a try, I just do the best I can. If it happens to be enough to win, great! If it isn't, I am glad I competed and someone else beat me by being better. What I don't understand is those who want to win something when they don't beat the other people. That isn't a competition anymore. That isn't directed at anyone in particular, it is more a comment for the community. If we change the rules so lesser performers can win, they haven't truly "won" in the original sense they wanted to.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 15, 2009 6:00:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Currently for competitions, the game looks at your single best duty report, and it only takes your highest. So someone who goes on one high "lucky" streak, can beat someone who has a much higher overall "puzzling session".


True, but ye're still gonna need to hit a decent incredible in pretty much any competition to have a chance.

 

Simply put, this is an excellent point. The response is that I don't care who wins, as long as they win for being the best. If I give something a try, I just do the best I can. If it happens to be enough to win, great! If it isn't, I am glad I competed and someone else beat me by being better. What I don't understand is those who want to win something when they don't beat the other people. That isn't a competition anymore. That isn't directed at anyone in particular, it is more a comment for the community. If we change the rules so lesser performers can win, they haven't truly "won" in the original sense they wanted to.


I think here we're crossin' purposes again, at least in the assumption ye're makin' at the end. Ye feel that ye'd be happy so long as there is competition, because competition is important to ye. I can recognize that. However, it ain't the soul o' the game to me. I like it for the fun, the artwork, the comradery, and the roleplayin' aspects.

For ye, the logical way to look at someone wantin' a familiar is that they want it as a sign that they've won a contest and have great skills. I can see that; I've heard people say as much, even goin' as far (not ye o' course) as sayin' that they don't want their monkey or octopus or whatever anymore because now too many non-elite puzzlers have 'em.

I understand that that last attitude exists, but honestly, I can't fathom it. For me, the familiar and the competition ain't connected in me mind at all. I want a familiar because they're neat lookin' and because I'm an animal-oriented person who'd pick an exotic pet over gold regardless o' how I got it. It ain't that I want braggin' rights for a competition that I didn't win; it's just that I like that particular item quite a lot, and I'd like some chance to win it.

Now, I know that the argument can be made that perhaps there should be a special recognition for the mightiest puzzlers that only they can get. I think that's right and fair, but I also think it's already in the game. There are the rankin's, the incredible trophies, and the ultimate trophies, all o' which reflect directly on the pirate's skill in puzzlin', with the sole exception o' the Ultimate Poker Trophy belongin' to a Mr. Shanglan o' the Cobalt Ocean, which I am at an utter loss to explain. Honestly. I got no earthly idea, other than that it was when poker first came out.

But that fluke aside, the trophies and rankin's are there for the reasonable purpose o' rewardin' only the skill o' the puzzler. While I do agree that a familiar awarded in a way that don't send it to the best puzzler ain't an example o' pure competition, I guess what I'm sayin' is that I'd like to see 'em given out now and then to in ways that might appeal to pirates like me, who don't care about bein' top puzzler in the ocean, but who do care about familiars just for their own sakes. In the case o' a competition to hit top fine, it's basically a cross o' luck and skill. I agree, it ain't a setup that rewards pure competitive horn-lockin', but then, that ain't what everyone wants out o' the game or out o' a familiar. I just wanna feed beer to an octopus. :)
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Roleni

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There has to be the potential for a bit of luck for those who aren't great puzzlers.

No, there doesn't.

For one thing, there don't have to be familiars, period. There are already game mechanics in place that reward skill, and there are others to still allow access to less skilled players.

For another, there are plenty of non-puzzling ways to award familiars, coupled with plenty of exemplary puzzlers that lack familiars. Why water down their odds of winning one by way of what they are good at?

Besides, there are different ways to mix in elements of luck than simply awarding a familiar to top fine. It would be nice - and, I think, much better, given that the current formats could remain part of a range of options - if competitions could be made to vary the degree of luck involved in winning (and vary other aspects, too), comparable to carousing tournaments.


Also, are the less skilled players still having fun, or no? What about the skilled ones that don't have a familiar?

If so, then why get uptight about the have-nots and reward mediocrity?


In the absence of a leveling or training based system, YPP game design rewards actual skill. The principle here is not just one of reward for those currently skilled - but also motivation and then rewards for improvement.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Roleni at May 16, 2009 2:37:55 AM]
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Sagacious

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I've never felt that unless I'm extremely artistic, like writing a lot or can puzzle like I'm elite - I've no chance of winning a familiar. And since I'm not prepared to save up and blow a barnacletonne of cash - I've not much chance of buying one either. For what they are - they are too difficult to obtain. While I'm very good at Rigging - the fact I didn't have any chance of winning the Top Fine category to win a familiar didn't bother me, nor a good number of others.
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basso

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I understand that that last attitude exists, but honestly, I can't fathom it. For me, the familiar and the competition ain't connected in me mind at all. I want a familiar because they're neat lookin' and because I'm an animal-oriented person who'd pick an exotic pet over gold regardless o' how I got it. It ain't that I want braggin' rights for a competition that I didn't win; it's just that I like that particular item quite a lot, and I'd like some chance to win it.


Simply put, you can save up and buy one. Wanting a chance to win one is understandable but not at the expense of people who perform better. I mean I have no chance of ever winning a SF familiar tourney, but I am not proposing we randomly give a familiar to the 25th seed each time, or to 18th place or something. That would surely increase my own chances of winning one, so I should want this right? It goes far beyond individual people wanting things. It is about what makes sense in the game.

Familiars don't necessarily have to go hand in hand with competition, but the Devs at some point decided they would. Just about everyone wants one, but their supply is limited. What is the best way to distribute a rare and valued thing? They could just only auction them, or they could also award them for winning things, such as tournament, competitions, and artistic/writing stuff on the forums. I just don't see how a person "wanting" a familiar should trump the fact that everyone else wants one too. And really, they are bought and sold often enough that anyone has the option to save up and get one.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 16, 2009 7:23:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanglan

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Well, I think I'll agree to disagree on this one, Basso. I understand that competition is important to ye, but I think there's room for that on the ocean together with other ways o' doin' things. After all, I ain't sayin' I want an end to competition; I can enjoy things fine if it's there and even the dominant form o' familiars bein' supplied. I just can't see how one group o' players' goals (competition) should completely trump another group o' players' goals (roleplay / fun) always and in all things. I don't see it as an unfair balance to occasionally throw a bone to those what like the idea o' luck bein' a lady now and then.

I guess that's me main beef with some o' the more egregious tartin' goin' on (not from ye o' course). The game's almost completely dominated by one point o' view (competition); those o' us to whom that ain't actually very much fun have learned to live with it. It's just a bit frustratin' to see the one rare case in which our point of view gets half a look in firestormed. From our point o' view, ye lot that like competition and bein' top o' a list get yer own way 99% o' the time. It feels a bit rough to be told that the 1% o' the time someone thinks about things from our point o' view is somethin' ye just can't tolerate.

Or, from another perspective - history is full o' systems o' economics and government in which the answer to "When will we little people ever have a shot at that nice shiny thing that only ye elite folks ever get?" is "never." And historically, it's never somethin' that the little people learn to say "yay" about.
[May 16, 2009 8:53:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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I fully do understand where you are coming from, but what is the alternative? Just give everyone a familiar? I know you aren't suggesting that, but I don't see a reasonable way of giving them out besides awarding the best. If they all become lotteries, most people still won't win one. Only then, its not because they aren't good enough, its because they aren't "lucky" enough. Personally, I'd rather play in a world where I can earn things, rather then waiting to have them handed to me. Its not that I think you want one handed to you, but that is where this logic ends up when implemented.

I certainly don't want to lord over other players. Many others and myself continually go out of our way to help newer players in this game. In fact, I'll sit down and work with anyone who asks to improve at any puzzle. I'll help anyone set up their shop, even if it is next to mine. I have helped people in a puzzle only to watch them win a colored fam as I get second (true story). I'm sorry though, I just can't understand thinking you ought to get something just because you show up, or just because you like it. I understand why you want it of course, just not why someone might think they are entitled to it. I can't say this enough: Everyone wants one! No matter how they are given out, more people will be "have nots". Throwing top fines a "bone" ignores all the people that get goods, excellents, and lower incredibles.

I do love the dialogue here, and it is an interesting point about history. There is a huge difference here though. I started out as a little person! So did Daviro, or Silverdawg, or anyone else who wins familiars. There is not some enforced class system or birthright prejudice operating. Every single person has the chance to do anything in this game, if they have the skill. That is far superior of a system to being born into the right family, which typically has dominated in historical terms. Maybe it is just me, but there is nothing wrong with being elite (as in really really good). I still treat everyone with respect (provided they do the same), as most players around here do.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Dylan

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So did <starting out> ... anyone [else] who wins familiars


That's just not true. Back in the early days, when familiars were awarded mostly for SF tournaments, there were groups of people who brought their Super Puzzle Fighter skills. I wouldn't be surprised if people who played a shedload of Dynobite or similar won early Rumble tourneys. It is certainly how I got to Ultimate very quickly ;)

I made the point earlier that if anything, when a new puzzle is introduced the first familiar to be awarded it actually makes sense for the playing field to be as level as possible. In the context of the previous paragraph, why should people who have a head start from similar games, or simply from Ice, be the only ones with a chance of winning? Especially at a time when the scoring hasn't full balanced!

I'm going to be partying next weekend with 2 of the 10 top ultimates on Midnight and neither of them is complaining. Who knows, in a years time one might have won 6 familiars and another might be unable to get back to ultimate. Unlikely, since they are my friends, after all, and I'm gonna make 'em teach me the ropes next weekend harr! ;) But whoever "would" have won this had it been for top ult rather than top fine might well be the 39th best rigger in the ocean.

Let me just re-emphasize: nobody has a right to win anything, and complaining about the prizes is sour grapes.

And personally, I do think everybody should be able to have familiars realistically. Not easily, no problem with that. But it should be an attainable goal WITHOUT having to buy them from another player. As I mentioned earlier, I've had 10 different ultimates, but the highest I've ever ranked in top 10s is something like 7th in Emerald for sailing. I don't see a way to get a familiar, for me, without grinding (which I no longer do).
[May 16, 2009 12:14:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shanoyu

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people with art skills don't deserve a familiar just because they did art forever

oh wait sorry guys

i thought it was 2004

I have the vapors
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basso

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But see that is the point, I am not complaining about me personally not getting a familiar. I'm not even ultimate in rigging, and certainly not a top 10. I would have had no chance at top incredible rigging, and that is perfectly fine by me. It has nothing to do with me complaining that I couldn't win a familiar. Whether we like it or not, they are a very rare and high end prize. It makes sense for high end prizes to go to the best performers. Simple really.

 
And personally, I do think everybody should be able to have familiars realistically. Not easily, no problem with that. But it should be an attainable goal WITHOUT having to buy them from another player.

Do you have a suggestion as to how this could be possible, without drastically increasing their numbers?

 
As I mentioned earlier, I've had 10 different ultimates, but the highest I've ever ranked in top 10s is something like 7th in Emerald for sailing. I don't see a way to get a familiar, for me, without grinding (which I no longer do).


Exactly, you are precisely the type of player that I would love to see win one. You are very skilled, and have been a dedicated player for quite some time. So I would be excited for you if you crossed that barrier and snagged one with your skills. If you don't want to grind for one, and you can't quite get that high inc (which is crazy tough to do), what else is there? Is the solution to increase the amount of familiar lotteries and hope to get lucky? Would you really want to win one for being the 37th seed in a tourney, or getting a fine? I mean how does that even compare to winning a tournament or getting the top incredible? I said it before, if you cheapen the accomplishment in order to let more people experience it, it ceases to be what it originally was.

Its like Michael Jordan letting a 7 year old beat him 1 on 1 in basketball. Does anyone think that the 7 year old earned that win? No, its a nice cutesy thing that makes the kid's day (or year for that matter). Now this is just a game though, so maybe everyone should just get whatever familiar they like whenever they log on. Realistically now, what would be the harm? I could get used to that and move on (yes I would hate it and yes I would make a thread about it, but ultimately I'll just keep playing, this is a fun game).

If that is truly the game that the people want it, let's do it. We could take it further and make every item sell for 1 poe in the palace shop, so I could get that black/black exotic canopy bed that I had my eye on. I am not joking here, it really is just pixels. Of course it would destroy the competitive and economic parts of the game, but I can have fun in other ways too.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Shanglan

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Whether we like it or not, they are a very rare and high end prize. It makes sense for high end prizes to go to the best performers. Simple really.


Without gettin' too obscurely Socratic here, everything's simple if ye grant the initial premise for free.

But what is that initial premise? In yer case - and do point me right if I'm wrong, because I ain't tryin' to misread ye - yer point seems to be somethin' like, "All prizes should go to the highest combination o' skill, talent, and hard work. I define familiars as prizes, therefore they should all be awarded in this fashion."

Now there be two issues in here I think bear a bit o' examinin'. The first, which I think I've mentioned above, is whether the only rightful place for familiars is as a prize for a competition o' skill. I don't think it is. Now, ye may see that as a sense o' entitlement, but let me suggest this: I am entitled to somethin'. I'm on me third year's subscription to Puzzle Pirates, and I got some reason to think that I bought the right to have a bit o' fun. That don't mean that I get to remake the entire game to suit me, but then it don't mean that it's necessarily a kind thing to dangle things in front o' me and then say, "Ha ha, not for you!" I think it was decent o' the Ringers to schedule one or two chance-based familiar events so that people like me could at least dream a happy little dream that some day I might have a familiar.

I know ye're bein' exaggerated for the point o' makin' yer claims when ye talk about handin' familiars out as people login, so I won't rate ye too much about that, other than to say that presentin' a false dilemma (either it's competition solely on skill or everyone gets a familiar tomorrow) is a sort o' rhetorical flourish that don't generally stand up to close logical scrutiny. I think if ye're bein' fair, ye'll agree that there's a huge difference to a person's experience o' a game when he at least has some chance as opposed to when he knows perfectly well he's got no chance o' any kind; that's the sort o' thing that keeps casinos in business. It ain't impossible to keep a thing rare and interstin' without limitin' its availability to a single narrow pool o' people with a very specific set o' skills and abilities.

The other premise ye assume is that the best way o' distributin' rare items is in a competition-o-skill basis. Maybe it works that way most o' the time in the real world, but then there's a lot o' the real world that people pay to play games to get away from. So let me offer this last word, coz I really think it ought to be me last, this debate draggin' on a bit and all.

We're playing pirates. What's at the heart o' every little kid's dream o' runnin' off and being a pirate? Is it "Gosh, I'd like to run off to the Caribbean, hire on for a pittance as a cabin boy, and over the course o' five to six years slowly work me way up to a modest but steady wage as a deck hand while the older and more powerful blokes take all o' the treasure"? O' course not. At the very heart o' piracy is the desire to have somethin' ye didn't slog away nine to five for. Otherwise, we'd all be playin' Yo Ho Ho Chartered Accountants. I ain't got a problem with skill and ability bein' rewarded, but that ain't why Jim Hawkins sneaked out o' town with a one-legged stranger, or why Ann Bonny took up with Calico Jack. Luck and plunder have always been at the center o' the pirate dream, and if ye make no room for that, then in my mind, ye ain't playin' pirate.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Shanglan at May 16, 2009 1:48:35 PM]
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