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Sagacious

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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I believe in principles, just none of the ones raised in this thread. My argument is that the topic and general attitude of this thread has been one purely focused on bashing the rigging competition, because it gave away a familiar for Top Fine rather than Top Incred as is "the norm".

It seems as if most people posting here see this an a very open-shut "mistake" (a big one at that) that needs to be exposed as a major problem. I'm saying it's not - and it doesn't - and I'm not alone. It was quite obvious that this was a once-off competition - and now it's likely that we'll never experience this kind of fun spontaneity again, because people have to spoil things.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sagacious at May 9, 2009 3:46:10 AM]
[May 9, 2009 3:44:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Giving away a supposedly high end item for performing poorly is not 'fun spontaneity', it devalues the idea of winning a competition and the familiar itself. Have you any idea how dispiriting it is to see someone who is much (much) worse than yourself at a skilled task taking a prize worth more than you have ever seen, for performance in that task?

It's like giving prizes away for sinking, or getting instad in a SF tournament.
----------------------------------------
Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[May 9, 2009 7:55:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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now it's likely that we'll never experience this kind of fun spontaneity again, because people have to spoil things.


Perhaps there should be an option to NOT take part in any OM run or automated activities, regardless of the imagined value of the prize gifted, much the same as it is currently possible to NOT take part in any gambling activities.

Those who are whining should take a look in the mirror, then either:
a) apologize, or
b) petition to be banned from OM/automated activities.
In addition, those who feel that their familiars have been devalued are welcome to sell them to me for 1.5k each - that's 100 Incredibles for a single Fine, a bargain at half the price!
[May 9, 2009 9:17:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Garthor

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Giving away a supposedly high end item for performing poorly is not 'fun spontaneity', it devalues the idea of winning a competition and the familiar itself. Have you any idea how dispiriting it is to see someone who is much (much) worse than yourself at a skilled task taking a prize worth more than you have ever seen, for performance in that task?

It's like giving prizes away for sinking, or getting instad in a SF tournament.


If you were better at getting a Fine without going over than they were, then you would've won that familiar. You're not, therefore, you did not.
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Cleaver wrote: 
I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

[May 9, 2009 2:24:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SaviourS

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Giving away a supposedly high end item for performing poorly is not 'fun spontaneity', it devalues the idea of winning a competition and the familiar itself. Have you any idea how dispiriting it is to see someone who is much (much) worse than yourself at a skilled task taking a prize worth more than you have ever seen, for performance in that task?

It's like giving prizes away for sinking, or getting instad in a SF tournament.


If you were better at getting a Fine without going over than they were, then you would've won that familiar. You're not, therefore, you did not.


Why would anyone practice aiming for a fine in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?
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Saviour, Meridian
[May 9, 2009 2:32:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Why would anyone practice aiming for a fine in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?


Considering this was a brand-new puzzle, and the first familiar awarded for it:

Why: Some people may not even have played it before, and not have managed better yet.

What benefit: A familiar.

Why? Why not ... apart from the inevitable whining.
[May 9, 2009 2:36:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SaviourS

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Why would anyone practice aiming for a fine in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?


Considering this was a brand-new puzzle, and the first familiar awarded for it:

Why: Some people may not even have played it before, and not have managed better yet.

What benefit: A familiar.

Why? Why not ... apart from the inevitable whining.


Not just for this , I remember the other egg tournies awarding better items for fines before rigging
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Saviour, Meridian
[May 9, 2009 2:51:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
OdorOfFrodo

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Better is in the eye of the beholder.
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Obviously this calls for dressing up as Karl Marx.

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Quack_688



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Better is in the eye of the beholder.

Another reason why winners (top incredible in a competition, or first place in a tournament) should be able to choose which prize pack they want, then second place, and so on. The current methods of "choosing" lower-level prizes (limit yourself to scoring fines, even if you're good enough to do better, or forfeit a "final four" match, even if you're good enough to win) seem rather distasteful.

Wildturkey, Malachite
[May 9, 2009 8:35:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Another reason why winners (top incredible in a competition, or first place in a tournament) should be able to choose which prize pack they want, then second place, and so on. The current methods of "choosing" lower-level prizes (limit yourself to scoring fines, even if you're good enough to do better, or forfeit a "final four" match, even if you're good enough to win) seem rather distasteful.

It's not difficult to not get an Incredible. It requires skill to be accurately worse in a puzzle. If you're dead set on getting a particular prize on offer - then expect to have to work towards it. Whether that be yet-another top incredible or having to throttle back and try to score top fine - you're working towards what you want.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 9, 2009 9:26:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Garthor

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Why would anyone practice TREASURE DROP / DRINKING in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?

----------------------------------------
Cleaver wrote: 
I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

[May 10, 2009 4:44:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Why would anyone practice TREASURE DROP / DRINKING in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?


Are you really comparing trying to improve at puzzles, to trying to intentionally lower your performance to get lower scores at puzzles? Really?
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 10, 2009 5:04:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.

I'm not buying this view that giving a familiar away for Top Fine was a bad thing. Just because a seeming majority in parley say it was bad - does not mean it was. "Oooh look, he's ignoring the obvious" - no I'm not. I'm exercising my right to disagree with the majority.

We've heard people bleat on about "principles" - it's all tosh. It was a light hearted competition with added humour and you guys just have to find ways to spoil it. I heartily endorse more of the same for other puzzles - because while everyone who has gotten jumped up about this particular competition never want to see it happen again - I'd rather see it happening more often.
Do you explicitly oppose people taking the game seriously? I take my fun seriously. I oppose this *on principle*, because it subverted the scoring system, which I have every right to take seriously. I'm not trying to spoil anything. I'm not against lotteries, or anything else. I'm not mad that a familiar was given out. I don't care if I'm the only one who thought it was poor form, and the one thing I agree with you on is whether a majority of parley-goers agree or disagree is entirely immaterial. I'm mad that no apparent thought was given to the effect on
--ships in atlantis
--ships in blockades
--the lost opportunity to people who may only have limited time to work on their puzzling stats, and care about them.

You have no business denigrating people for taking their performance seriously. People had to choose between doing their duty to their ship *after they had already signed on their pillages, blockades, etc.* or maximizing their chances at a familiar. That's a crappy choice to make people make, on principle. This isn't say, the second Black Death swordfighting tourney (I think it was the second) that was contemporaneous with Hephaestus' Forge I. Those both were known ahead of time.

Is that clear enough? Because I'll shoot down everyone of your belittling, dismissive posts if that's what it takes.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 10, 2009 10:52:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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now it's likely that we'll never experience this kind of fun spontaneity again, because people have to spoil things.


Perhaps there should be an option to NOT take part in any OM run or automated activities, regardless of the imagined value of the prize gifted, much the same as it is currently possible to NOT take part in any gambling activities.

Those who are whining should take a look in the mirror, then either:
a) apologize, or
b) petition to be banned from OM/automated activities.
In addition, those who feel that their familiars have been devalued are welcome to sell them to me for 1.5k each - that's 100 Incredibles for a single Fine, a bargain at half the price!

I expect OOO to happily implement this option. Expect a bill for $49.95 per greenie, alt account or labor account that chooses it, $74.95 per subscriber and $99.95 per doublooner.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 10, 2009 11:47:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Is that clear enough? Because I'll shoot down everyone of your belittling, dismissive posts if that's what it takes.

Lol. This part was the most best.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Sagacious at May 11, 2009 1:12:38 AM]
[May 11, 2009 1:10:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.

I'm not buying this view that giving a familiar away for Top Fine was a bad thing.

I never said that it is a bad thing. In fact, I think it was a heck of a lot of fun, even though sadly I wasn't online to participate when it happened.

My disagreement is with people who think that familiars are so omg eleet trophies that they should, as a matter of 'principle', never be given away in lottery-like events.

As for the timing and notice... well, ok, it probably can be improved.
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Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by pomfret at May 11, 2009 2:34:41 AM]
[May 11, 2009 2:32:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.

I'm not buying this view that giving a familiar away for Top Fine was a bad thing.

I never said that it is a bad thing. In fact, I think it was a heck of a lot of fun, even though sadly I wasn't online to participate when it happened.

My disagreement is with people who think that familiars are so omg eleet trophies that they should, as a matter of 'principle', never be given away in lottery-like events.

As for the timing and notice... well, ok, it probably can be improved.


I think most of us have accepted that they're not "omg eleet trophies". Despite some of us hoping that there was something, like familiars in days gone by, that WAS an "omg eleet trophy".

I don't understand why it's such a bad concept to give that top 1% a reason to compete with each other for a status symbol. If only to break the monotony of competing with the same people for nothing more than PoE and the odd trinket on a regular basis.

The timing of the event was unfortunate, the prize was something rare and extremely valuable, which I personally think shouldn't be handed out for such a mediocre achievement. Though really, that's my (and apparently a lot of other people's) perception of the value or skill that should be a prerequisite to winning some of the more rare and shiny things in the game.

I don't mind particularly that I've paid 150k or more for a rare piece of furniture that some awesome carouser picked up in a tournament, I'd probably not attach the same value to something that essentially well over half of the active puzzlers on the ocean could win. The reason? Well, over half the active puzzlers on the ocean have a shot at getting it, over time they're clearly not going to be rare and shiny (think starfish/coral/trinkets) if the pattern of awarding them continues.

(Before we jump on me for "pattern of awards" consider that 100% of rigging familiars have currently been handed out for fines. Yay pointless percentages! :P)
----------------------------------------
rachaelj wrote: 

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spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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Terrify

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It's just a game, get over it!
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Terrify, Hunter Ocean.

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[May 11, 2009 4:03:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Grinfish

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I don't understand why it's such a bad concept to give that top 1% a reason to compete with each other for a status symbol. If only to break the monotony of competing with the same people for nothing more than PoE and the odd trinket on a regular basis.

Isn't that why they added #1 Trophies?
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Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey.
Retired, No regrets.
Unretired, still No regrets.
Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.

Briggs wrote: 
StuManchu puts the "sensual" back in "Nonconsensual"

[May 11, 2009 8:58:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Inschato

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I don't understand why it's such a bad concept to give that top 1% a reason to compete with each other for a status symbol. If only to break the monotony of competing with the same people for nothing more than PoE and the odd trinket on a regular basis.

Isn't that why they added #1 Trophies?


#1 trophies the gimmickiest gimmick among a pile of gimmick. They mean nothing, and just cause people in the top 20 to be extremely careful about where and how they play their puzzle. They are no indication of who is going to win a puzzle competition, and only a slight indicator of who /might/ have a chance of winning a tournament.
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-Undisputed Overlord of the Emerald Ocean
[May 11, 2009 9:07:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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I don't understand why it's such a bad concept to give that top 1% a reason to compete with each other for a status symbol. If only to break the monotony of competing with the same people for nothing more than PoE and the odd trinket on a regular basis.

Isn't that why they added #1 Trophies?

Trophies are pretty much trinkets. Although I expect the people who don't mind familiars being devalued view those as merely trinkets too. This is why I made me Rare Items thread in Game Design.
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Peglegpaul
Now on Obsidian!
[May 11, 2009 9:17:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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I really do agree with a lot of the things being said by the "omg get over it" side. The fact that a tan familiar was, to a first order approximation, lotteried, was fine with me. (see what I did there? ha ha!) Tan familiars, while not meaningless, are as likely to mean "hey I accumulated a million poe and bought a burd" as they are to mean anything else--I really think that complaining about that is tangential to the issue here.

Putting ship captains and their jobbers at cross-purposes, in sinking situations, with no advance warning, is bad policy. The rest of the issues are annoyances. They annoyed me, too--quite a bit, in some cases--but they are still only annoyances. The potential to sink someone's substantial investment by putting them in circumstances entirely different than what they set out to experience is not merely an annoyance. A war frigate on a doubloon ocean costs, all told, a substantial part of what I pay for an entire year's subscription--I think people would have reason to be irritated if they suddenly found themselves short on tokens in the middle of the blockade board, and that's an entirely plausible, and forseeable, consequence of this contest.

I think a bakeoff for best fine would be, well, fine. (did it again, didn't I?) It'd be kind of cute, even. Some things about it might annoy me, but hey--it's a multiplayer game. I'm not going to like everything that happens.

But putting peoples' assets (Yes, they're assets. They provide positive externalities and are exchangeable for other things of comparable value) at risk, without sufficient warning, is *bad*.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 11, 2009 10:16:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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The issue surrounding the scheduling of this competition is not the main reason this thread was created, and therefore I don't refer any of my argument to that issue.
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Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 11, 2009 11:59:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Eh, that'll teach me. I should know better than to assume that just because the horse is already (insert distasteful metaphor about use of dead horses here) that the argument wouldn't get brought up. Again.

I stand by my unjustified overreaction to your inappropriate dismissiveness though :)
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 11, 2009 12:23:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prometheus
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I interrupt your normal Parley programming to bring you this important announcement:

Duke Nukem: Forever Finally Gone Gold! In Stores June 16th!

-Pro
[May 11, 2009 6:50:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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I interrupt your normal Parley programming to bring you this important announcement:

Duke Nukem: Forever Finally Gone Gold! In Stores June 16th!

-Pro

Ha!

For those that don't know, Duke Nukem Forever becomes Duke Nukem Never as Garland-based game developer 3D Realms shuts down. I think they gave up when OOO released adventure islands. ;-)
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 11, 2009 6:55:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Garthor

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Why would anyone practice TREASURE DROP / DRINKING in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?


Are you really comparing trying to improve at puzzles, to trying to intentionally lower your performance to get lower scores at puzzles? Really?


I forget who it was, but I heard that a two people decided to play a game of Treasure Drop where the goal was to score the FEWEST points, essentially reversing the logic of the game.

Were they intentionally trying to play the game poorly? No, they were intentionally trying to play the game DIFFERENTLY, with a different metric for success and failure. It still required skill, and I'm sure the winner was better at playing reverse treasure-drop than the loser. Aside from the whole TD-is-terrible thing.
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Cleaver wrote: 
I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

[May 11, 2009 6:57:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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I interrupt your normal Parley programming to bring you this important announcement:

Duke Nukem: Forever Finally Gone Gold! In Stores June 16th!

-Pro
This is another fine* mess you've gotten us into.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 11, 2009 8:55:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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I interrupt your normal Parley programming to bring you this important announcement:

Duke Nukem: Forever Finally Gone Gold! In Stores June 16th!

-Pro


Much enormous luff for this one, guys. MUCH love.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[May 11, 2009 9:42:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Why would anyone practice TREASURE DROP / DRINKING in their whole ingame experience? What benefit? Why?


Are you really comparing trying to improve at puzzles, to trying to intentionally lower your performance to get lower scores at puzzles? Really?


I forget who it was, but I heard that a two people decided to play a game of Treasure Drop where the goal was to score the FEWEST points, essentially reversing the logic of the game.

Were they intentionally trying to play the game poorly? No, they were intentionally trying to play the game DIFFERENTLY, with a different metric for success and failure. It still required skill, and I'm sure the winner was better at playing reverse treasure-drop than the loser. Aside from the whole TD-is-terrible thing.

It's a whole lot easier to fail to make a pull happen on a rigging board than it is to "lose" at TD. The skills required to be good at one variation on TD carry over to the other variation you described. Moving a piece back and forth to keep your sails dead requires very little skill.

Your analogy fails miserably.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 12, 2009 5:42:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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