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tanonev

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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To me the "best entrant that day" is the person who scores the highest.


I see nothing wrong with redefining the scoring function for the purposes of an event.
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Tanonev on all oceans; currently exploring Meridian.
Puppetar by Tilinka
[May 6, 2009 2:09:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.alpha-slash.com [Link]  Go to top 
HiimEric2001

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Occasionally, there are going to be people who don't "get it". Whatever you say or do or teach, they simply won't be able to succeed at the normal goals required to obtain "Item X". However, said same people are fiercely loyal to the game, and enjoy it wholeheartedly, and play it with full effort.

I think you're talking specifically about people who "don't get" puzzles. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'll give you that there are probably some individuals who, no matter how hard they try, or who teaches them, just won't be able to do any of the puzzle types we have in this game well.

However, there are ways to win familiars that aren't for puzzling. There are tons of forum events every year (plus non-puzzling in-game events). Many of these events award familiars, which I'm totally cool with. For someone to be unable to obtain a familiar by the normal goals they need to not get: every puzzle in the game, races, writing (both short and long works), drawing, sculpting, singing, parodying, saving poe, botany, baking, general expression, knitting, card making, obituary writing, etc etc etc.

I don't believe these people exist.
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Cire
Purple Squid Brigade, Inglorious Fandango

 
Nemo says, "Cire has figured me out..."

[May 6, 2009 3:44:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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To rephrase your question: Is there any point in having any competitions other than the Olympics and world cups? And while we are at it, why not cut those down to the list of athletes/teams who have a credible chance of winning!


Yes of course there are, but this is like awarding Little Billy's high school football squad the World Cup.
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
[May 6, 2009 3:46:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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To rephrase your question: Is there any point in having any competitions other than the Olympics and world cups? And while we are at it, why not cut those down to the list of athletes/teams who have a credible chance of winning!


Yes of course there are, but this is like awarding Little Billy's high school football squad the World Cup.


Leave it to Suty to say my point better than I, and using less words. I'd say this sums up my side of things. Unrealistic rewards for trivial accomplishments sets a terrible precedent.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 6, 2009 4:02:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Inschato

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Although, sometimes there are contests where you can say, "win a party with the Stanley Cup & Mark Messier" or whatever, but you don't exactly get your name on it. There's no system in place for you to "win a day with a familiar" either, so nope. Although that might be a really cool idea.. probably not. >_>
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-Undisputed Overlord of the Emerald Ocean
[May 6, 2009 4:05:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Although, sometimes there are contests where you can say, "win a party with the Stanley Cup & Mark Messier" or whatever, but you don't exactly get your name on it. There's no system in place for you to "win a day with a familiar" either, so nope. Although that might be a really cool idea.. probably not. >_>


I'd be perfectly willing to hold contests, with the prize being a day with any of my familiars. Hell I'd be willing to do that for free to reward someone for just being a decent jobber or whatever. Obviously I could never do this unless it was somehow technically coded into the game as a "loan" or something. It is too bad that people cannot be trusted.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 6, 2009 5:04:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Unrealistic rewards for trivial accomplishments sets a terrible precedent.

orly?
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 6, 2009 10:56:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Unrealistic rewards for trivial accomplishments sets a terrible precedent.

orly?


Yep :) I suppose if you don't immediately see why, we'll never agree.
----------------------------------------
Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 7, 2009 12:01:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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Re: Riddle me this. Reply to this Post
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Unrealistic rewards for trivial accomplishments sets a terrible precedent.

orly?


Thanks this adds a lot to the argument, although your more loquacious posts in the thread have about as much content / relevance anyway, so you're still shootin' par for the course.
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
[May 7, 2009 7:35:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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This was not the right medium for a familiar lottery. There's nothing necessarily wrong with (tan) familiar lotteries, but it was inappropriate to subvert puzzle scoring for the purpose.

It is, however, also wrong to compare a tan familiar with the World Cup. A colored familiar wasn't at stake here, and there's pretty clearly a difference.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 7, 2009 8:34:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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This was not the right medium for a familiar lottery. There's nothing necessarily wrong with (tan) familiar lotteries, but it was inappropriate to subvert puzzle scoring for the purpose.

It is, however, also wrong to compare a tan familiar with the World Cup. A colored familiar wasn't at stake here, and there's pretty clearly a difference.


So let's call it the UEFA Champion's League cup then.

The difference isn't big enough to acquit the disproportionate reward.
----------------------------------------
Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
[May 7, 2009 8:42:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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I'll withdraw my "orly?" and replace it with a "y so srs?"
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 7, 2009 8:44:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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So, you end up with Lotteries, which are by-the-by, or trying to set up a competitive match with a "Handicap" to the more-skilled which puts everyone on a reasonable par.

Then do a lottery, not a competition. At least it's what it claims it is - a lottery - rather than pretending to be something else.
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Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 7, 2009 11:57:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.
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Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[May 8, 2009 1:51:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jutecloth

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Except you've no hope if you play the puzzle well, Pomfret. If it had to be a lottery, I'd prefer something like having anyone with a Good or higher get a ticket and/or more tickets the better you score.
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Bakunin wrote: 
When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick".
Darksand wrote: 
[S]chadenfreude is a positive externality for some of us.

[May 8, 2009 2:04:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.
Of course it's a lottery. The complaint is that it's the wrong way to do one, not that it isn't a lottery.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 8, 2009 10:03:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Garthor

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.
Of course it's a lottery. The complaint is that it's the wrong way to do one, not that it isn't a lottery.


People found it fun. How, exactly, does that make it the "wrong way"?
----------------------------------------
Cleaver wrote: 
I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

[May 8, 2009 12:45:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
HiimEric2001

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Not everybody finds it fun. If you look at the big picture it's obvious.

Some games are meant to be easy, not challenging, and heavily dependent on luck. There is a market for that.

Other games are meant to be hard, challenging, skill-based. This makes achievement very rewarding. There is a market for games like this.

There are lots of people who want to pay money for the latter type, but don't want to pay money for the former type. If you create a culture of only achievement being rewarded then you are going to get people who gravitate towards the latter to play your game. When you add more things based on luck you lessen that culture, even if only a little bit at a time. Every time you do that you are going to slightly lessen the loyalty of the latter market.
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Cire
Purple Squid Brigade, Inglorious Fandango

 
Nemo says, "Cire has figured me out..."

[May 8, 2009 1:23:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Grinfish

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Not everybody finds it fun. If you look at the big picture it's obvious.

Some games are meant to be easy, not challenging, and heavily dependent on luck. There is a market for that.

Other games are meant to be hard, challenging, skill-based. This makes achievement very rewarding. There is a market for games like this.

There are lots of people who want to pay money for the latter type, but don't want to pay money for the former type. If you create a culture of only achievement being rewarded then you are going to get people who gravitate towards the latter to play your game. When you add more things based on luck you lessen that culture, even if only a little bit at a time. Every time you do that you are going to slightly lessen the loyalty of the latter market.

I agree that not everybody would find it fun. You can't please everyone all of the time, but you have to endeavour to please all of the people, some of the time - not as the same time is a given.

What I would find of interest is the take-up of this particular contest, and whether a significant amount of people actually refused to take part in it due to it's structure, or entered via whatever means and only took up issue afterwards. I won't get this information of course, but I would find it interesting. For all we know, it may have been the most popular contest ever run.

As far as the "who pays for what game type" thing, we already know the skill-based "purity" of the game has gone, and very much so.

However, it's something that can be internalised. If you pride yourself on being the best, if that's what you want to be, you go out and you try to place as high as you can, regardless of what is offered as prizes. We don' need no steenkin badges.

For all other enquiries, see Fiddler's signature (unless he's changed it recently).
----------------------------------------
Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey.
Retired, No regrets.
Unretired, still No regrets.
Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.

Briggs wrote: 
StuManchu puts the "sensual" back in "Nonconsensual"

[May 8, 2009 1:59:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gillie017

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I was online and refused to take part in it.
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If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a Huntard .
[May 8, 2009 2:04:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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I was online and refused to take part in it.


I wasn't online and didn't refuse to take part in it.
[May 8, 2009 2:11:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.
Of course it's a lottery. The complaint is that it's the wrong way to do one, not that it isn't a lottery.


People found it fun. How, exactly, does that make it the "wrong way"?
A lot of people found it unfun.

As I said before, it subverts the duty puzzle system. I think that was unwise, because the duty puzzle system has a purpose already.

Bumper sticker form:
Simultaneous oceanwide poor play should not be encouraged. It's too frustrating to too many people.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 8, 2009 2:24:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Garthor

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.
Of course it's a lottery. The complaint is that it's the wrong way to do one, not that it isn't a lottery.


People found it fun. How, exactly, does that make it the "wrong way"?
A lot of people found it unfun.

As I said before, it subverts the duty puzzle system. I think that was unwise, because the duty puzzle system has a purpose already.

Bumper sticker form:
Simultaneous oceanwide poor play should not be encouraged. It's too frustrating to too many people.


A lot of people find carpentry unfun, too.

And any sort of happening that players might be inclined to do more than what they're currently doing subverts whatever they're currently doing. I mean, this basically is just a rehash of "people are playing poker instead of pillaging with me!"
----------------------------------------
Cleaver wrote: 
I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship.

[May 8, 2009 4:48:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Then I'm not making myself clear enough, or you're being disingenuous. Or you don't know what subvert means in this context.

Poker is an alternative puzzle. That doesn't subvert anything.

The un-funness of carpentry does not reward people for booching their ship.

zomg! It's a straw *army*!
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 8, 2009 5:19:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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What a f'ing joke
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[May 8, 2009 6:37:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.

I don't have to pretend, because it's not.

Some people are bad enough that they can't pull a high fine. Therefore, those people are out. Already, it's not a lottery.

I don't have to bother with any other arguments or statistical elements to demonstrate how top anything isn't a pure lottery, let alone a lottery within a subset of players.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
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vnork



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Garthor wrote: 
And any sort of happening that players might be inclined to do more than what they're currently doing subverts whatever they're currently doing. I mean, this basically is just a rehash of "people are playing poker instead of pillaging with me!"

The obvious difference is that poker is an additional carousing game available at all times, while puzzle competitions are sporadic events. Both blockades and competitions are occasional events, and need not overlap with each other.

If OOO removed poker, then ran an unannounced limited-time only pokerfest during a blockade, I would be angry as well.

-Vnork
[May 8, 2009 7:34:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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For crying out loud, stop pretending that Top Fine is not effectively a lottery.

I'm not buying this view that giving a familiar away for Top Fine was a bad thing. Just because a seeming majority in parley say it was bad - does not mean it was. "Oooh look, he's ignoring the obvious" - no I'm not. I'm exercising my right to disagree with the majority.

We've heard people bleat on about "principles" - it's all tosh. It was a light hearted competition with added humour and you guys just have to find ways to spoil it. I heartily endorse more of the same for other puzzles - because while everyone who has gotten jumped up about this particular competition never want to see it happen again - I'd rather see it happening more often.
----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[May 8, 2009 8:25:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yoccm

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Lottery Competition: Black octopus for Top ???, everyone would puzzle for the top place in something they don't know, excellent, incred, booched, fine, poor, or good. That way everyone has a chance, and no has to botch their scores to get.

More competitions in general though would be nice, and unless OOO decides to never have a rigging competition again, then I'll join the 'this is the evil OOO does and will be the new common' camp.
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Every once in a blue moon, the moon turns blue.
[May 8, 2009 9:14:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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We've heard people bleat on about "principles" - it's all tosh.


Looking for clarification here. Do you not believe in principles at all, or do you not believe in this one in particular? Could you sum up the argument from your point of view so I can understand your disagreement?
----------------------------------------
Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[May 8, 2009 9:46:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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