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Cantbeard

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Alts Reply to this Post
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Quoted from another player.

"What sort of alts (if any) should be allowed for PvP? Trade runs (to avoid PvP)? War? What can be done by players to stop abuse?"
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Cantbeard on all oceans
[Apr 29, 2009 3:00:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Quoted from another player.

"What sort of alts (if any) should be allowed for PvP? Trade runs (to avoid PvP)? War?


None. Or failing that, Alts with stats equal to mains.
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Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

Av by Ecastasy
[Apr 29, 2009 4:33:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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Quoted from another player.

"What sort of alts (if any) should be allowed for PvP? Trade runs (to avoid PvP)? War?


None. Or failing that, Alts with stats equal to mains.

OCL works, too. :P
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Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[Apr 29, 2009 11:43:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cantbeard

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Quoted from another player.

"What sort of alts (if any) should be allowed for PvP? Trade runs (to avoid PvP)? War?


None. Or failing that, Alts with stats equal to mains.

OCL works, too. :P

What is OCL?
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Cantbeard on all oceans
[Apr 30, 2009 12:14:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dan1701

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Alts with stats equal to mains.


QFT. Equal/similar sats to the main pirate should be fine, its where they are drastically different that problems arise.
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Mrtickle/Mrtickles More commonly in plural form

Still Rioting if less than ever.
[Apr 30, 2009 12:45:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Momma_Wolf



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Problem is, if you create a new alt, it necessarily has - no - stats. While you CAN navy grind to get up to reasonable levels, going out on a few pillages with friends is certainly more fun, not to mention profitable.

I have alts, and yes, I did navy grind them up to reasonable stats in the main areas I play (sails, bilge, guns). I never use anything but my main for a trade/commod run, and rarely play any of the alts except on a pillage for the crew they belong to, or my blockade alt when she's needed for XO.

Personally speaking, I think anyone using an alt to change might rings for pvp - whether it's to start it or avoid it - is despicable, and should be reported for alt abuse.
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Mommawolf, lurking on most oceans
Captain, Blackwolf Marauders of Midnight, now Cerulean
Queen, Victory Raiders of Midnight, now Cerulean

cmdrzoom said:
 

Anyone may demand answers of the gods.
Getting them is another matter.

[Apr 30, 2009 3:51:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dan1701

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Problem is, if you create a new alt, it necessarily has - no - stats. While you CAN navy grind to get up to reasonable levels, going out on a few pillages with friends is certainly more fun, not to mention profitable.

I have alts, and yes, I did navy grind them up to reasonable stats in the main areas I play (sails, bilge, guns). I never use anything but my main for a trade/commod run, and rarely play any of the alts except on a pillage for the crew they belong to, or my blockade alt when she's needed for XO.

Personally speaking, I think anyone using an alt to change might rings for pvp - whether it's to start it or avoid it - is despicable, and should be reported for alt abuse.


Whats wrong with pillaging on an alt? I don't think there is anything wrong with it myself.

In the true sense of the word I use my alt for everything, as I rarely play what was my main character for 3 years.
MainPirate - http://midnight.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/pirate.wm?target=Mrtickle

Alt -http://midnight.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/pirate.wm?target=Mrtickles

As for might ring manipulation I wholeheartidly agree, but as we meer players don't know how might rings are calculated we can't say how close the stats of an alt need to be to avoid making a difference
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Mrtickle/Mrtickles More commonly in plural form

Still Rioting if less than ever.
[Apr 30, 2009 4:08:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Parrrdner

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If someone who is obviously an alt is doing a trade run, I see nothing wrong with bringing a fake greenie along on my attack of them, since I'll have to fire all the bots to attack.
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Pardner; Riot Forever
[but not around :/ these days ]
[Apr 30, 2009 11:43:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Furarri

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An innocent pillage with an alt should be fine. Using the low stats of the alt to avoid harder attacks on trade run or to pvp should be considered might ring manipulation.

What about the gray, fuzzy areas?

What about an alt solo on a sloop pvping - there is no might ring advantage other than the solo will appear very easy to anyone who would engage or re-engage. In that instance, the odds are stacked heavily against the solo anyway. The main must be absolutely awesome to overcome the disadvantage of 3 able bots. (of course he would have the advantage of the bots not lazing lol)

Fuzzy 2: What if the solo alt attacks another solo alt pvp?

And the last fuzzy I can think of: What if your main is ulti gunner. Can your alt have just the one ulti gunner stat too if that is all the alt does?

I'm not trying to start a tart-fest, but clarification would be appreciated.
----------------------------------------
 
 
.... submarines are out!
Slimbottom won't like this at all.

Awesome avatar by Terrify! Thanks!
[Apr 30, 2009 11:44:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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An innocent pillage with an alt should be fine. Using the low stats of the alt to avoid harder attacks on trade run or to pvp should be considered might ring manipulation.

What about the gray, fuzzy areas?

What about an alt solo on a sloop pvping - there is no might ring advantage other than the solo will appear very easy to anyone who would engage or re-engage. In that instance, the odds are stacked heavily against the solo anyway. The main must be absolutely awesome to overcome the disadvantage of 3 able bots. (of course he would have the advantage of the bots not lazing lol)


The main doesn't have to be "absolutely awesome", the target has to be "absolutely not awesome". Some people are remarkably accomplished solo pvp'ers, sailing to build tokens, hopping off sails to reload guns quickly and back onto sails. Against good opposition it's a disadvantage, but as someone that's not a great sailor OR gunner, but who's sunk a fair few ships whilst soloing, you don't need to be awesome, you just need your target to be worse than you. That aside, you're still potentially lowering your might, which limits the chances of you being attacked by a fairer fight... Though that drifts into the extremely grey area of alts being on any non-navy/blockade ship, because as soon as they set sail they're a potential target to someone, and your lack of real standings lowers someone elses ability to target you, intended or not. It gets really confusing if you start to consider all the rammifications of using a lower statted player for anything other than the navy/blockade ships.

 

Fuzzy 2: What if the solo alt attacks another solo alt pvp?

And the last fuzzy I can think of: What if your main is ulti gunner. Can your alt have just the one ulti gunner stat too if that is all the alt does?

I'm not trying to start a tart-fest, but clarification would be appreciated.


At the risk of contradicting some of what I've said above, solo on solo you have enough leeway with might rings that you can attack almost any realistic alt. I haven't checked, but I'd assume one on one against a green alt I'd probably see them as blue, but not to the point where I'd hit el pollo diablo. Just off the top of my head. I'm sure people will have evidence to prove or disprove my theory there though.

If your main is an ultimate gunner and a legendary bilger, sailor, bnavver etc, and your alt is only an ultimate gunner there will be a disparity, but it's not "as" bad.

I petitioned a while back, I think, off the top of my head mnemosyne was the unlucky one dealing with me, but as far as I can tell, intent is a big part of it. If you set sail with intentionally low standings to reduce your might to gain an advantage in PvP, you're in the wrong and will be dealt with if caught. If you're pillaging to build up standings on an alt, and some guy attacks you, well...

The general gist of the response was "you should make an effort to get the alts standings up to near the mains, but stuff happens at times, we know that." So a common sense approach.
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rachaelj wrote: 

"your standing in patronising has gone up and is now respected in your archipelago"
spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
Avatar by Funny.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by mads0001 at May 1, 2009 3:24:35 AM]
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nunny_45

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As long as your solo, no matter what your stats (well maby an all ult might but who the hell can go sailing with that), you shouldnt see anyone with less then light blue. Worse is you get a warning :P.
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Nunny
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by nunny_45 at May 1, 2009 3:43:58 AM]
[May 1, 2009 3:43:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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As long as your solo, no matter what your stats (well maby an all ult might but who the hell can go sailing with that), you shouldnt see anyone with less then light blue. Worse is you get a warning :P.

What if you're attacking someone significantly stronger than yourself anyway - but not so strong that you can blackship them? For example, say that an alt or set of alts with some reasonable work on stats but still a large enough difference to make a might ring difference is used, attacking what would normally be a yellow but what turns up instead as an orange? As long as the intentions are clean, I think it's hard to claim alt abuse when there's no actual manipulation of the game environment.

What makes a lot of this full of gray/fuzzy areas is the matter of intentions. If a player takes a novice/able greenie alt on a whim and then beats the living daylights out of an attacker because in fact that person has ult pirate, it's hardly fair to claim alt abuse, even if the might ring *was* deceptive. I'll try to mem interarch and other odd routes while dnavving for friends moving commodities, and doing so may end up dropping the might ring to the point that another ship would get blackshipped for attacking, but the whole point of the process has nothing to do with the might ring.



Outside of sea battle PVP there are still gray areas. If I want to play spades with friends sometimes I *can't* do it on my main because people will limit the higher ranks, so I'll alt. I'm not trying to fleece poe in increments of less than 1k, I just want to play spades. Should I tell my opponents ahead of time? Should I offer to pay my opponents back if they lose? Or can I just play some spades?
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Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 1, 2009 5:47:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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Carousing games are a whole different ballgame, stat-trollops (flirts? whatever... When did that happen anyway?!) will be just as miffed if they lose to a renowned player and drop their ultimate because the number two player on the ocean is stat-trolloping for that number one trophy. (Been there more than once, frustrating :P) Likewise, an able wagering on an able-respected table and pulling 10k a game despite "really" being more like a legendary/ultimate player would be asking for a blast from the banzooka.

Again it's a question of intent, I don't know at what point it goes from "just messing around on an alt" to "trying to rake in PoE by playing people that wouldn't normally sit down with your main for that kind of PoE". But obviously if you appear to set out to fleece people it's far worse than if you're just seeing how long it takes you to get ultimate or whatever in your favourite carousing puzzle...

Alt abuse is so subjective that you have to be really bloody greedy or bloody stupid to get caught out for it. Sad but true.
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rachaelj wrote: 

"your standing in patronising has gone up and is now respected in your archipelago"
spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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[May 1, 2009 5:55:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Simmins3

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As long as your solo, no matter what your stats (well maby an all ult might but who the hell can go sailing with that), you shouldnt see anyone with less then light blue. Worse is you get a warning :P.

What if you're attacking someone significantly stronger than yourself anyway - but not so strong that you can blackship them?


If a weaker ship attacks a stronger ship, there is no chance the blackship would appear, I thought? It's only when a stronger ship attacks a weaker ship.
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Simmins.
SO of The Blackwolf Marauders,
Some dude from the Victory Raiders
[May 1, 2009 6:10:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nunny_45

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Its generaly best to just avoid using alts altogether when in acts of Seaborn activities, unless of cource you realy have to such as a lack of badge.
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Nunny
[May 1, 2009 6:27:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
tlz_allen

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If someone who is obviously an alt is doing a trade run, I see nothing wrong with bringing a fake greenie along on my attack of them, since I'll have to fire all the bots to attack.

So someone else's breaking of the rules/law justifies your doing the same? Slippery slope here we come!
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TlzAllen
Captain, The Dawntreaders
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Roleni

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If a weaker ship attacks a stronger ship, there is no chance the blackship would appear, I thought? It's only when a stronger ship attacks a weaker ship.

I'm referring to the other ship attacking back. One form of might ring exploitation is to use alts so as to hit weaker ships instead of getting the blackship. Another is to use alts so that other ships (stronger or no) will possibly/probably get the blackship instead of you.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 1, 2009 8:12:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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I have previously (on my main) attacked a ship in PvP, won, and then had a member of the crew get mad at me because they'd have been blackshipped for attacking back.
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Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[May 1, 2009 9:27:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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I think a better question is, "How many times must this endless line of inquiry be revisited and word-vomited upon by people trying to sound important?"
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by StuManchu at May 1, 2009 10:48:26 AM]
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basso

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I think a better question is, "How many times must this endless line of inquiry be revisited and word-vomited upon by people trying to sound important?"


In all seriousness, this is an important issue that many new and not so new players are confused about. It would be nice to have a clear policy on what is and is not allowed. If such policy exists, please link me. Note that I said "clear". Simply saying "don't manipulate might rings" without any sort of clarification will not be very "clear" to most players. Currently Hunter Parley is full of constant whining about alts, to the point that an OM should come by and clarify what is and what is not complainable. Sometimes, a direct response from an authority figure is a good thing for the game. I mean I could tell them my interpretation of the rules, but who is going to listen to a random pirate? Those blue names carry weight with them.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Barney25

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In all seriousness, this is an important issue that many new and not so new players are confused about. It would be nice to have a clear policy on what is and is not allowed. If such policy exists, please link me. Note that I said "clear". Simply saying "don't manipulate might rings" without any sort of clarification will not be very "clear" to most players. Currently Hunter Parley is full of constant whining about alts, to the point that an OM should come by and clarify what is and what is not complainable. Sometimes, a direct response from an authority figure is a good thing for the game. I mean I could tell them my interpretation of the rules, but who is going to listen to a random pirate? Those blue names carry weight with them.

Entire post heartily endorsed, and some of it bolded for extra emphasis.
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Barney
SO of "Silver Dreams"
Hunter Ocean
<><
Cairna wrote: 
Barny alone is capable to sink us :(

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[May 1, 2009 10:48:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Barney [Link]  Go to top 
Roleni

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What's the over/under on a spirit of the game link, should an OM drop by? <_<

 
I have previously (on my main) attacked a ship in PvP, won, and then had a member of the crew get mad at me because they'd have been blackshipped for attacking back.

Were they alting or no? That's a GD concern where it seems like the ship *should* get to attack back, though. However, it'd just be plain funny if they were alting and still couldn't. :P
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Roleni at May 2, 2009 3:56:59 AM]
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Parrrdner

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If someone who is obviously an alt is doing a trade run, I see nothing wrong with bringing a fake greenie along on my attack of them, since I'll have to fire all the bots to attack.

So someone else's breaking of the rules/law justifies your doing the same? Slippery slope here we come!

Would you rather I /complain them for moving commods on an alt?

Or would you rather that it is possible to move commods on a green alt with impunity?

Or would you rather that I bring a greenie with me to attack?
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Pardner; Riot Forever
[but not around :/ these days ]
[May 2, 2009 12:54:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sprngweather

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If such policy exists, please link me.


http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/Alt_abuse

 
Note that I said "clear". Simply saying "don't manipulate might rings" without any sort of clarification will not be very "clear" to most players.


If the ship is aqua (black ship warning level) and you are on an alt that has stats substantially below your main, you are circumventing might rings by attacking. It's abuse if you couldn't have done the same task on your main.
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Sprngweather & Picory
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[May 4, 2009 11:52:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Parrrdner

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The discussion page on the Alt_abuse page correctly states:

 
These examples should really probably have links to either past disciplinary action or explicit disallowal of some action. Otherwise it's just opinion.

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Pardner; Riot Forever
[but not around :/ these days ]
[May 4, 2009 2:22:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
toospecial

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These examples should really probably have links to either past disciplinary action or explicit disallowal of some action. Otherwise it's just opinion.

That quote was writen by a pirate.
OM's do not discuss or make public disciplinary actions.
Therefore it itself is an opinion. One that I share.
[May 4, 2009 2:37:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
basso

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I believe the last few posts prove my point. Sprngweather, you are of course correct with your link. That link explains everything really easily, if the person reading it is mature and honest. The problem is that most everyone is not both of these things. Which is why a more clear and definitive policy would be nice.

For instance, if my main is Legendary SF, how high would my alt have to be for me to be ok in playing wagered matches? Or, in order to PvP on my alt, how close do my standings have to be to my main? These gray areas are ruthlessly exploited by many. Handling things on a case by case basis sounds fine, until you realize most players don't have a clue what the rules even are. Like I said, they surely aren't going to listen to me or "you".
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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StuManchu

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Do you really expect them to set a policy relating every ranking to every other ranking? You say yourself that gray areas exist: these are open to OM arbitration and should be investigated via the subjective petition/complaint forms much like other judgment call things are.

You can't make a hard'n'fast rule for everything, dude. This has been discussed SO many times and led to SO many tartfests as to be ridiculous. It's pretty accepted these days that if you have an issue, just petition. OMs will mediate, go with their judgment. Sorry they can't codify everything.
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Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
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Roleni

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Do you really expect them to set a policy relating every ranking to every other ranking? You say yourself that gray areas exist: these are open to OM arbitration and should be investigated via the subjective petition/complaint forms much like other judgment call things are.

You can't make a hard'n'fast rule for everything, dude. This has been discussed SO many times and led to SO many tartfests as to be ridiculous. It's pretty accepted these days that if you have an issue, just petition. OMs will mediate, go with their judgment. Sorry they can't codify everything.

That doesn't mean that the way it is now is the way that it should be, nor that therefore it should be left as is.
----------------------------------------
Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[May 5, 2009 12:35:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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But the way it is now is the way it has evolved to be over the endless yammering and head-bashing generated in threads like these over the last 5 years. well, evolved over the first 2 of those years, and then pointlessly bandied about for the last 3. Each thread says "It's not the way it should be and it shouldn't be left as is." How many times have they changed anything?
----------------------------------------
Was once Stuyvesant

Redistribute your wealth, or we'll redistribute your blood.
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