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Belthazar451

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Flag Defunctness Reply to this Post
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For the last eight months, I've been keeping the outdated flag articles updated. Come February, I'll be starting on my third round through the list, meaning I've updated almost every flag article on the YPPedia twice.

Essentially, I'm wanting to cut down the workload a bit by redefining just what makes a flag defunct. Up until now, I've called a flag defunct if it either has no non-dormant members, or if the yoweb page no longer exists. I'm wanting to tighten up the defunctness criteria so I can call more flags defunct and so remove the articles from the update cycle. Basically, here's a bunch of criteria listed below. I've listed them in order of what I see as increasing non-defunctness (for want of a better word) and I'd like to see which of them people agree with as criteria for calling a flag article defunct.

0. No active members (current definition)
1. Up to some number of active members, but with all members ranked FO or below in their crews.
2. Up to some number of active members, but with monarch and royals all dormant.
3. Up to some number of active members, but with no changes to the flag information since the last update (i.e. four months previously), including monarch, member crews and alliances/wars.

These criteria are basically making the distinction that though the flag has active members, it's inactive as a flag.That said, if I get too strict with the definition, I risk picking up flags that have been created simply for the sake of grouping a bunch of crews. If there are better defunctness criteria, feel free to suggest them.

The other option to reduce workload is to simply increase the requirement for declaring a flag article outdated from the current three months to (say) six months. Only the way it currently works, I have to update every flag article once every four months, meaning I need to update something in the range of two hundred flag articles a month.
[Jan 18, 2009 5:55:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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0 and 1 seem reasonable definitions of defunct, since there's nobody with the power to do stuff even if they wanted to.

2 seems a bit of an odd one, but if the number of active members is low enough, it could work. Though it seems like making even more work than you have now to check if they're defunct, and so possibly counter-productive.

And 3, well, that just sounds like situation normal for a flag to me.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 18, 2009 9:29:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Alfwyn

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I wouldn't have a problem with marking flag pages as outdated after six month.

For dormant flags it would be nice, if the yoweb link would still show, currently I have to go back in the edit history to check upon dormant flags. But this is more a question of the template I think, cramming the flagid into the defunct reason somehow is probably no good idea.
[Jan 19, 2009 3:09:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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So, here's the sort of example I was thinking of for my level-two flag above:

http://midnight.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/flag/info.wm?flagid=10006968

Assuming it doesn't change between my posting this and it being read, the flag has a single active captain, meaning it doesn't fall under the "all active members below FO" criteria, but said captain isn't even titled in the flag, which puts it under the "monarch and royals dormant or gone" criteria. The flag is essentially defunct.

It'd be nice to have a specific concensus on "this makes a flag defunct" rather than just a "use your own judgement on a case-by-case basis", especially if said judgement unknowingly goes against the consensus.


As for showing the yoweb page for defunct flags, about half the flags are called defunct simply because their yoweb page no longer exists. You could make the yoweb link optional, but that just means you need to add yet another extra parameter when making flag articles defunct.
[Jan 20, 2009 10:41:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Yeah Killer Watermelons are defunct. Dunno if that will always be true, some pirates establish flags like that to be alone. :-)
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 20, 2009 10:47:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Alfwyn

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As for showing the yoweb page for defunct flags, about half the flags are called defunct simply because their yoweb page no longer exists. You could make the yoweb link optional, but that just means you need to add yet another extra parameter when making flag articles defunct.


I was thinking about something along the line of showing the yoweb link if the defunct reason is set to "Dormant", which seems to be pretty standard for dormant flags. I played around with a such modified template in my sandbox , the yoweb link shows, if a flagid is given and the reason is set to either "dormant" or "Dormant".
[Jan 21, 2009 5:24:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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I think the much simpler method is to just include the flagid or don't include it. If it's there, the template can display the link just like it does with the regular flag template. Yes, it means that there will be flag articles that have broken yoweb links, but that's a better situation to be in than to not have some linked just because the template was filled out oddly.
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[Jan 21, 2009 5:31:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
amoyer

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Another issue is when the flag ends up in the defunct template it is no longer monitored for being out of date. So now when a flag goes from dormant to defunct it doesn't fall into an out of date category that is monitored (somewhat) regularly. How many flags that are marked dormant have actually been reinstated as active flags or become fully defunct or disbanded? What are we currently doing about those? Should a flag that is marked as dormant actually get it's own category so we can keep track of that too? Although the out of date category is not followed that closely that it will mean yet another out of date category, like the cleanup category, where things just pile up in.
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Cedarwings
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[Jan 21, 2009 5:45:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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Another issue is when the flag ends up in the defunct template it is no longer monitored for being out of date.

That's the idea behind this thread, really. I want to be able to declare more articles defunct so I can remove them from the endless (and slightly pointless) update cycle. Feel free to create a new out-of-date category for them if you like, but I ain't touching it.

Granted, it's far easier to check if a flag is still defunct than it is to update an active flag, but it still promises to be tedious. And updating a thousand flag articles every four months is tedious enough.

It seems to me that if they cared enough, they'd do their own updating... though I guess I shouldn't be one to talk, since I only think to update my own flag's page when someone prompts me, or it comes up in the regular cycle.

 
Although the out of date category is not followed that closely that it will mean yet another out of date category, like the cleanup category, where things just pile up in.

This sentence appears to be missing a word that completely changes its meaning. Like an "if" after the "although". I have been keeping something of an eye on the Articles Needing Work category, which is why I've spent the last eight months updating flag articles, but there's a lot there that's beyond my time or sanity (like the outdated crew pages) or ability (like stubs and fact-check requested) to do anything with.
[Jan 21, 2009 6:29:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
addison



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Crew Defunctness Reply to this Post
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I've just started updating outdated crew information, and I think that crew pages should be marked as defunct if there is no active captain or senior officers that in the crew. Is there anyone that can make a proposal so that we can vote on these "defunctness" issues? -Addison

 
Another issue is when the flag ends up in the defunct template it is no longer monitored for being out of date.


Somehow we can mark dormant flags to be monitored and disbanded/merged flags to be unmonitored? -Addison
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by addison at Jan 25, 2009 4:33:33 PM]
[Jan 25, 2009 4:21:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Addihockey [Link]  Go to top 
amoyer

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Addison wrote: 
Somehow we can mark dormant flags to be monitored and disbanded/merged flags to be unmonitored?

Do you really want to go and edit the approximately 2000 pages (60% flag, 40% crew) to mark them as either dormant, disbanded or merged?

I'm not saying that's a reason to not do it, just that it would be a lot of work. Not to mention having to figure out the changes to the templates.

I think one of the problems with the whole dormant idea is that unlike the out of date anything that has been moved to the defunct template is ignored. But what really makes a crew/flag dormant? But based on the original post's question, does a crew that only has a captain in it (i.e. 1 active member) but constantly running pillages (everyday for at least an hour), or always taking ships to Cursed Isles, constitute a dormant crew? I don't think so. Based on that, and I know there are some crews out there like that, a dormant crew is one that has no active members. I know this doesn't help ease the process though.
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Cedarwings
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[Jan 25, 2009 9:06:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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But what really makes a crew/flag dormant? But based on the original post's question, does a crew that only has a captain in it (i.e. 1 active member) but constantly running pillages (everyday for at least an hour), or always taking ships to Cursed Isles, constitute a dormant crew? I don't think so.

Yes, but the thing is, what happens to the answer to that question if you replace "crew" with "flag" wherever it appears? Especially if said captain was neither a royal nor the monarch? Is a flag with an extremely active but non-ranked member defunct or not?

To give a possibly slightly laboured real-world analogy, if Three Rings was run by (say) Galene all by herself, no matter how active she is in keeping the game going, Three Rings simply won't function as a company.
[Jan 25, 2009 9:26:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
amoyer

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I would say that if a flag did not have a monarch, any royalties, or any titled members active, yes, the flag is dormant.

As for a crew, if the captain, and senior officers are all dormant, then I would say the crew is as well.

So, I would say the following is my criteria for an active crew and flag...
Crew: At least one active of captain and senior officers.
Flag: At least one active of monarch, royalty and titled members.
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Cedarwings
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Cobalt Ocean
Oceanus wrote: 
"I hear Atlantis is all fun and giggles"

[Jan 26, 2009 12:08:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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Whew, that's the second round of updates complete. I wonder if I knew what I was getting myself into when I started updating flag articles back in June.

Anyway, unless there are any objections, I'm gonna start declaring flags defunct using Amoyer's suggestion starting next month. As to your previous comment, Sweetnessc (if you're still reading this thread) I don't think it's too hard to tell if all position-holding pirates in a flag are dormant. It's actually generally reasonably easy to tell... and that really needs to be re-worded without three consecutive adverbs...
[Jan 27, 2009 4:00:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jezzebel

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Can someone possibly tell me why my flag, Raiders of the Lost Arch is tagged with "Outdated Flag Information"? We've never gone defunct (by any of the definitions in this thread) since we were formed in 2005, and I think we've kept up on the updates fairly well.
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Redjenny, Now merged with Health Nutz
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[Feb 9, 2009 7:14:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Fiddler

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Because the last two times anyone updated the article they didn't bother updating the "updated" date in the infobox. If the date there is older than three months the whole article is semi-automatically classed as outdated.
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Orsino, Viridian ocean
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[Feb 9, 2009 7:20:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Avatar by Stimmhorn [Link]  Go to top 
Belthazar451

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Note that outdated is not the same as defunct. If it's still listed as outdated by the time I get around to it, I'll give the flag the same treatment as I do any other outdated flag - that is, check it over and update it.
[Feb 9, 2009 9:47:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Luther8

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The example you gave of "The Killer Watermelons" was a tricky one- I have info though. The titled member indicated is actually banned from playing and has been for a long time now. Hope this helps in your flag defunctness musings.
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Luckylad of Midnight
[Feb 10, 2009 1:13:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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