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Matthias

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PvP Reloaded Reply to this Post
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While this has come up many times before, there's a problem people are missing.

(Be warned, this entire paragraph is probably an impression of Captain Obvious. I use 'black sails' as a term for PvP pillages, because it looks more piratey.)

PvP, as it's meant to be played, is meanyhead. Two crews loading up and having at one another is fun, sure, but we can have special tables for that, special routes. The entire ocean is PvPable, and the devs have put in great pains to ensure that people put goods out and be moving targets for PvP. Which means the devs want traders to feel at risk.

Every time you attack a trader, you potentially reduce that trader's reward for the activity, making the act of sailing goods or poe from one place to another longer and less rewarding. Even if you have the best of information, loading up a ship and attacking someone with plenty to lose is bad news, usually. They lose more than they wanted to, and if you had laid of, they wouldn't have, so it's your fault. Some players won't blame you, knowing that this is the intention of the devs, and others will, because it didn't need to happen.

Thus, the only way to make PvP 'fun' is to change things in such a way that traders are constantly threatened by PvP. It changes the activity of voyaging from one where you may be attacked to one where you almost certainly will be attacked, and quite possibly will be beaten to a bloody pulp if traders don't try to avoid fighting as much as possible.

Thus, there has to be changes to the entire system of PvP such that attacking a trader is not only easier, but is also the role the player needs to play (The cries of "but we're pirates!" is the cry of a player playing the role of a stealy-money-type pirate) but the trader has a chance against vertiable swarms of player vessels. We're recreating a stealth-em-up, or possibly chase game in the ilk of All Over Red Rover. There's no malice involved, that's just the role everyone's playing.

*When a trader makes a large trade, eg takes a lot of money or goods on board, the market people will know about it, and the navy will notice if they're passing by. This spreads to the old salts in the various inns in some sort of organic pattern - perhaps the navy passes on the information when it docks. So the entire archipelago, and even the ocean, given time, knows about high rollers, not just when they're coming into port.
* Because old salts are constantly hearing information, they're far more privy to tell their new best mate when they hear it, not when their mate asks them. Make old salts time-based, so they'll just announce something like: "What's that? Ol' Mako from the navy? You're really tellin' me he saw a ship called the Cunning Angler filled to the rigging with riches just down Alpha way?" when they've got friends in the room and they're feelin' talkative.
* If you've bought an old salt a drink, and then set sail as the last navigator, you will auto-engage any ships that they've mentioned. They will appear on your maps in the league that they're in, no matter how far off they are. You know which way they sailed off from every league point. If they're coming up, you will be told and will be able to prepare. And every pirate in every inn in the ocean will know as well. (If it's an ally, obviously you won't be tracking them, because you probably shouldn't pillage your allies.)
* Players who will auto-engage have a different shaped light ring, and traders will be able to see on their radar which players are out to get them if they're close enough.
* Of course, suddenly being on the radar of every pirate in the ocean is no fun either. If a ship that knows who you are charts the same route as you have, the trader knows about it: "Avast! Yer rich bounty has been noticed, an' a ship full o' murderous pirates, the Steely Bass, is on their way to pillage yer riches!" This gives them ample opportunity to plan their escape.
* Instead of one lane that every pirate sails in, you have two, one each way. You can swap lanes, but it takes up speed. If you run into a ship coming the other way and can't get around it in time, you take damage. And if you're trying to engage a player, you need to be in the right lane to do it (though you can swap lanes). This gives traders a teensy chance to squeak by, if they're good.
* Leagues points should be sacred. Even if someone's trying to engage you, they're forced to break off on a league point.
* The amount of time it takes to turn around and recover should be based on your speed. It you turn around, you actually turn around - your ship does a u-turn, and its turning circle is based on how fast it moves vs. how fast it can turn. Full speed turnarounds and engage should be impossible, not merely improbable. While you're at it, might as well change lanes.
* 50% of old salt money should be put into a fund to be handed out upon porting by people who have been chased. Call it danger money or a seller's fee or something creative. Perhaps governors can throw some money in as well if they're feeling generous or need to increase their expendature to ensure they get the same budget next year. What percentage they take (50% 100% However many rumours there's been?) is up in the air. You only get danger money once unless you sell off your goods.

The technical details:

* Having an organic rumour network will require the most work - may be just easier until the Ringers have time is extend the range of the old salts to the entire ocean. Of course, this means that interarch trading becomes impossible, because the long interarch routes would become guaranteed ambush points. An organic rumour network would require both the old salts and possibly navy vessels to carry a 'list' of well-stocked traders and trade them upon every porting.
* Black sails pirates would be passed only the league of any target they're chasing. Pirates would be able to hold a limited number of targets in memory at a time, based on server load. The client would query the server to publish positions every time the radar is reloaded.
* Doubling the amount of sea lanes wouldn't be too much harder than one sea lane - there would only need to be two new switches, one for being in the "first" sea lane, and one for changing sea lanes.
* Sacred league points is either trivial or very difficult, depending on how engaging is implemented. My money's on "very difficult" - engaging probably works as a switch, and then when the two ships are in the same spot, whalaa, engaged. The defending ship would have to be able to tell the attacking ship that it's currently "safe".

Social consequences:
* Far less gem and big money trading, in all probability. It would no longer be as profitable to move everything in one hit. It would also require jobbers, which reduces player's profitability some.
* Trading that doesn't set off the game's rumour mill would be unaffected. This should be a good portion of trading, say under 10k or so of goods.
* Trading would be more difficult, which may make it more rewarding for mates. I understand a lot of mates don't like trading because it's boring for a far smaller profit for mates. The old salt money is intended to relieve this somewhat, but it'll still probably happen.
* Navies become an interesting choice if they spread rumours - PvP type islands have large navies, in order to spread information and bring it back to their island. Trader islands have small navies, to try and ensure information doesn't spread too much but people can still whisk around.
* It makes protection voyages more feasible. Traders are told when they're going to be jumped, and what ship name.
* It makes PvP easier. You can see the target coming and you don't have to click engage to catch them. While players can still PvP normally, it's advantageous for them to plonk down their ten poe to get tracking and autoengage against prewarning for traders.

Does it solve the stated problems?
* Here's why the autoengage is important - black sails pirates have to engage. When they bought an old salt their drink, they asked for PvP against whoever came up. If it's someone they've got a non-aggression pact with, they have to avoid that route. It's no longer personal - you were the one that the game matched you up with. Traders aren't "jumped" - they're told when a player is approaching that means to pillage them.
* There is no way traders can just tell people to leave them alone - the rumour's spread too far, and there's more than one player they have to deal with. The only reason they're there in the first place is to catch the trader, it's clear, everyone knows it. Traders can't blame the black sails because the black sails were given a trader at random, and the reason they're out there is because the traders flashed high-risk goods. It becomes the responsibility of the trader to protect their goods by making it to home port before rumour spreads.
* If there's a reward for high-risk trading, it makes trading voyages more profitable for jobbing, which means more mates out on the seas. It also increases the trader's reward for high-risk trading, making it a worthwhile activity (instead of ferrying 100 poe beckwards and forwads.)

It's probably too radical a change (giving new functions to almost everything in the game, but that's the only fair way I can see it working), but I kinda like the idea of an organic rumour network.

Matt
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[Sep 26, 2004 1:22:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
puzjunky



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it is a nice idea, but is there any way to stop placing your value judgements over mine? The continuing tone of PvP is baaaaad, is an old one, and not representitive of the Ocean at large.

If i go out to PvP I really don't need someone setting rules as to who and where it will happen. my freedom of attacking players is not something i want taken away. Not in a sense of "We're Pirates" but in a sense of "We can make a decision and live with the consequences"

we've had polls that ask how many people are bothered by PvP and they came up in a small minority( i think DB can look that one up). Yet such a vocal minority continue to discuss it that i can't help but wonder if they really expect concrete changes in the PvP system. I don't see it happening with the state of The List as it is, except for minor points that already appear on The List. but then again, I am not a dev so my opinion counts about as much as yours.

anywho if there's a poll, i'd prefer to be able to attack who i like when i like(free will is more fun than train wrecks), but if not, i would guess your system would be less harsh than some of the suggestions that had been offered before.
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[Sep 26, 2004 1:54:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    talonsypp [Link]  Go to top 
jimhunt

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Re: PvP Reloaded Reply to this Post
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A quick solution to your PVP troubles,

Get better at the puzzles or get a better crew!
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[Sep 26, 2004 2:02:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    485312609 [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Re: PvP Reloaded Reply to this Post
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jimhunt wrote: 
A quick solution to your PVP troubles,

Get better at the puzzles or get a better crew!

That doesn't solve the inequality of risk, or the overwhelming likelihood of no plunder for either side.

Neither does this, but those are the two problems with current PvP. And there have been some very good suggestions. The new puzzle and all that comes with it are coming first, but with a new programmer, the timetable just accelerated.
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[Sep 26, 2004 2:11:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Smolder

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Re: PvP Reloaded Reply to this Post
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Nemo wrote: 
a new programmer


This brings joy to my heart, knowing that Adventure Islands will be here sooner =)
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[Sep 26, 2004 5:32:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



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Don't forget that if you make trading hard, anything that requires shipping goods will cost a fortune. Such as rum.

Lose 30k PoE for a pvp battle loss, but get 50 PoE in old salt money if you avoid it. Yeah, that sounds like it makes trading more profitable.

Suppose I want to ship some goods from Spring to Gaea. I chart a route that goes through five archipelagos and ends at Verdant Atoll, and then just stop and cancel the route at Gaea. How do your old salts deal with that?
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[Sep 26, 2004 6:26:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Whitefire

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Every island you chart through will report you as a rumor. So instead of just three islands reporting you, you have the entire ocean talking about you.
[Sep 26, 2004 6:42:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SeattleBrian

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Sounds overly complicated, just go out and PvP if that is what you want to do.
[Sep 26, 2004 6:56:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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we've had polls that ask how many people are bothered by PvP and they came up in a small minority( i think DB can look that one up).


Of the forum. There's no way to tell who is in the majority, and it really doesn't matter. The majority often turns out to be wrong anyway, so it's really a moot point. Stick to the game design merits, not what people accept to be "right" or "wrong".

Another thing- I'm not your archivist :) If you want to look it up yourself, feel free. Looking up stuff actually annoys me, I just do it because sometimes the results are really pleasing.

What annoys me about PvP is not when traders are attacked. I feel you risk that as a trader. What annoys me is when pillagers are attacked, and people without anything valuable at all on their ship. It feels like having a waste of time inflicted upon you. Your suggestion might filter that sort of thing out.
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[Sep 26, 2004 9:51:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
Christoban

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I like most of it, but think the '2 lane ocean' idea is silly and unnecessary.

I *REALLY* like the idea that both traders and pvpers know what the deal is up-front. And because of the auto-engage, the trader's best interests might be to hit the attacker with a few balls before disengaging, to slow him down on the chase.

If you really want to make things interesting, allow the trader to hire an old salt to "put a hit" out on the boat that targeted him. The trader can post a bounty, which will get spread throughout the 'old salt' network to other salts, who will pay pirates to engage/attack the pvper who is trying to engage/attack the trader. Then you make mercenary bounty-hunting a two way street. The PvPers would *love* it, and it gives some retribution ability to the traders.

I can just imagine having old-salt info to whack an incomming trader, and getting an alert that says: "A bounty has been placed on your vessel for interfereing with the shipping lanes! The Modest Bass has departed to intercept you!" Adrenaline = good.

What self respecting PvPer is going to complain when he finds out that another PvP crew is coming to get him? :) This puts the PvP game where it needs to be - between PvPers and traders, and between PvPers and other PvPers.

/me claps. Good ideas mate.
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game design wrote: 
..let's see, we have thing A and thing B, with thing B currently not implemented yet. Thing A leads to people stabbing themselves in the eye, as does thing B... but since A already exists..

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Christoban at Sep 27, 2004 1:13:47 AM]
[Sep 27, 2004 1:13:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Seamusmclir

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[quote="Christoban"
I can just imagine having old-salt info to whack an incomming trader, and getting an alert that says: "A bounty has been placed on your vessel for interfereing with the shipping lanes! The Modest Bass has departed to intercept you!" Adrenaline = good.


/me claps. Good ideas mate.[/quote]

I think the Traders should be able to put PoE into the bounty on the PvP ships through the Old Salt network. That would really drive it. :)
And the first player ship to whack aforementioned ship gets the bounty.

Oh, and just so there'll be no claims of griefing, the old salts have to recognize them as a threat through the aforementioned process before the traders can contribute PoE.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:18:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.maghtuireadh.org/forum/    seamusmclir [Link]  Go to top 
Seamusmclir

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Nemo wrote: 

That doesn't solve the inequality of risk, or the overwhelming likelihood of no plunder for either side.


Am I the only one that sees this as part of the dangers of PvP pillaging that should be accepted with grace?

How are you supposed to know whats on yer opponents ship! You hit them, not knowing what they're carrying.

If a rumor network gets started, I think there should be a network involving who's carrying what to where as well. (There's a well stocked trader headin' this direction, name of '*ship name*' under '*crew*' and '*Flag*'..) All or none of which could be wrong.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:22:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.maghtuireadh.org/forum/    seamusmclir [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Seamusmclir wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 

That doesn't solve the inequality of risk, or the overwhelming likelihood of no plunder for either side.


Am I the only one that sees this as part of the dangers of PvP pillaging that should be accepted with grace?


Mostly. The equality of risk issue is the primary problem. In some ways, fixing that would lessen the impact of the question of goods, since it would require the attacker to carry something to lose.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:30:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Seamusmclir

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Nemo wrote: 
Seamusmclir wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 

That doesn't solve the inequality of risk, or the overwhelming likelihood of no plunder for either side.


Am I the only one that sees this as part of the dangers of PvP pillaging that should be accepted with grace?


Mostly. The equality of risk issue is the primary problem. In some ways, fixing that would lessen the impact of the question of goods, since it would require the attacker to carry something to lose.


*shrugs* Okay then... I can accept this as another disparity between what i think of as fun and others idea.

It certainly won't LESSEN my fun to have every PvP make me win something, but I kind o' like the idea that there's a chance I'm attackin' an empty ship.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:33:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.maghtuireadh.org/forum/    seamusmclir [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Seamusmclir wrote: 
It certainly won't LESSEN my fun to have every PvP make me win something, but I kind o' like the idea that there's a chance I'm attackin' an empty ship.

Your idea of fun aside, it's not a "a chance" of attacking an empty ship. At present it's an enormous likelihood. You're all pirates. You're all out looking for ships to attack, with minimal risk to yourselves. But you're attacking each other. So nobody has anything.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:53:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Seamusmclir

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Nemo wrote: 
Seamusmclir wrote: 
It certainly won't LESSEN my fun to have every PvP make me win something, but I kind o' like the idea that there's a chance I'm attackin' an empty ship.

Your idea of fun aside, it's not a "a chance" of attacking an empty ship. At present it's an enormous likelihood. You're all pirates. You're all out looking for ships to attack, with minimal risk to yourselves. But you're attacking each other. So nobody has anything.


Sound argument there...
Ok then, here's one more vote for 'have to have something on your ship to attack' then..

perhaps amount to be determined by size of ship?
Different requirements for sloops, cutters, etc...?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Seamusmclir at Sep 27, 2004 1:59:00 AM]
[Sep 27, 2004 1:59:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.maghtuireadh.org/forum/    seamusmclir [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Except merchants.

And we we beat you, you still don't have anything.
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[Sep 27, 2004 1:59:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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Just a wonderance: Would the problems of a "poe-value" based system to help equalise PvP risks be somewhat less now we have accepted and pretty (very, imo) accurate "tax values?" Why not use these values to assess the goods on a ship, and form a sort of PvP rating comprised of both your might rating and the goods/poe aboard? That way, one person sailing a sloop loaded up with lorandite or yarrow or kracken's blood would be a target because they're carrying something valuable, wheras those going pillaging with low sea battle ratings would still be protected by their might rating due to not carrying very much?

To attack, perhaps, you would have to have a certain relative level of wealth? And if you attacked when you were under that level, instead of being blackshipped, you could have your location, vessel name, and owner crew broadcast to the ocean, so people automatically knew who was hunting without a "wager" so to speak.

Of course, if such a system were used, there would have to be a limited amnesty for the amount of supplies required to sail. (ie. rum and shot)
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[Sep 27, 2004 6:12:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
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The problem (in my mind):

I think a large part of the problem would be solved simply by making huge incentive to become a transporter of goods/poe.

In the real pirate world there were many, many merchant vessels for each pirate on the sea. The danger to pirates came mostly in the form of Navy, bounty hunters, even from fighting ships disguised as mechants specifically to trap pirates. Merchant vessels were easy compared to the other threats.

Of course making a bunch of computer generated & heavily ladden merchant vessels running around (instead of brigands) would greatly upset the economy (with all the easy poe) and make fighting brigands mostly pointless.

The YPP world is practically all pirates.

---

So if there was incentive to carry large amounts of goods around, then the YPP world could become more balanced between pirates/brigands & legimate trading/transporting vessels.

A potential solution, my suggestion:

Allow players to accept transporting missions. A player pays 5000 poe to get a bank note and transport it to a distant island. If they get the 5000 poe to the remote island, they get say 5750 (intra-arch) or 6550 (inter-arch). The payment premium would have to be worked out (but may be able to be based on actual bank transfer costs). The risk they take would that they can lose poe along the way, to the point of wiping out their earnings or even getting less then their orignal payment at the remote bank.

The Bank notes for transfer could be:

1) Random generated, spawning
2) Generated based on actual in game transfers
3) Always available?

The amounts would of course have to be limited, and longer voyages should pay more (than shorter ones). The amount paid would have to cover basic expenses + at least several times what a navy voyage would be.

Larger ships could get larger notes.

Players who pillage such a ship obviously get poe, not the note. The note however reduces in value appropriately.

---

Same idea could be extended to commodity runs. Items instead of poe. Island A wants to transfer say 10k of goods to Island B. They will pay you 1500 poe to do it, but you have to pay them for the goods on island A, and you'll get 11500 for the goods on island B. If you get pillaged a long the way, then your payment decreases (cost of lost goods + decreased shipment premium).

Larger ships could be allowed larger shipments.

---

These 'missions' would have to be lucrative enough to be worthwhile, but not so lucrative to turn everyone into transporters.

The more skilled players you place on your ship, the less rick you take obviously, but also the less pay per player (due to more players onboard).

With all these valuable cargos running around, PvP would be much more lucrative.

It would also restore some reality to the merchant/pirate balance.

---

Potential problems (from the top of my head) and caveats:

Island camping might be a problem (pirates constantly waiting just off the island), so a random engagement immunity might be required for official goods shippers (think of it as a military escort) till they are some % of the league point away from the island.

*EDIT On second thought, you don't know if you are attacking a merchant runner or another full-blown pirate at any given moment, so maybe nothing needed protection wise... hmmm*

Items for purchase would be at slightly inflated rates (and random as to what they are). This would be to prevent exploits (like taking a trading note in order to get that item). Items that are part of the note take hold space, but are not tradable as commodities from your ship.

They only become commodities when taken onto a ship that successfully raids you. A certain loss factor could be introduced to ensure that this does not become a reasonable way to 'buy' commodities (ie. by having 1 ship buy a note and another successfully attack it).
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[Sep 27, 2004 7:31:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.order-fm.com [Link]  Go to top 
Daplunderer

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I like the idea except for the auto-engage. You should still have to engage them yerselves. I also think that if somebody buys a salt a drink, any "rich vessels" on routes the pirate was on recently (time period would need to be fooled around with, I think) would have a chance of being added to the salts knowledge. (Because the pirates would be talking to each other) I also think that a swabbie should sometimes just send tells to friends (only ones in the inn) if the majority of the people are not "friends" of the salt. The more often you buy him drinks, the more he likes you. His friendship would slowly decay if you don't buy him drinks. (He starts forgetting you a bit, after all, with all those friends, it's hard to keep track!) He would never dislike you, just drop more and more. Also, maybe certain swabbies would be more likely to report certain things. For instance, one may be better for commod reports, while another for PoE. It wouldn't be told which ones told what more often, that'd be for you to find.
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[Sep 27, 2004 10:02:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/nickchurch [Link]  Go to top 
Markoman

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Nemo wrote: 
a new programmer


*Smiles*
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[Sep 27, 2004 10:07:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Matthias

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In truth, I was expecting Hom to come in, call me an idiot, and have the topic die. Anything more is a bonus.

puzjunky wrote: 
The continuing tone of PvP is baaaaad, is an old one, and not representitive of the Ocean at large.


You miss the point. I personally don't mind PvP. As I outlined, though, it's very easy to see it as a vindictive activity when people have something to lose. If we want to get more PvP in the game, some of this venom has to be taken out of the activity.

 
my freedom of attacking players is not something i want taken away.


This is on top of regular PvP, not a replacement. This is for the specific case of traders vs. pillagers. Heaven forbid we take away knocking off enemies you haven't formally gone to war against.

Nemo wrote: 
That doesn't solve the inequality of risk, or the overwhelming likelihood of no plunder for either side. Neither does this...


The idea, as I mentioned, is to change trader vs pillager PvP to something else. Traders have a different job to pillagers, and that is to not get intercepted. They do it already - use dev-vision, and watch the movements of any trading vessel when they are targeted by brigands. Their pay is based on making it to the other side with as many goods as possible, not how many pirates they take out along the way.

So the issue of no plunder is a moot point, because if all goes according to plan, traders shouldn't be earning plunder.

Quizzical wrote: 
Don't forget that if you make trading hard, anything that requires shipping goods will cost a fortune. Such as rum.


Hmm, didn't think of that. I figured oldsalt money would flow a bit more freely, but it probably wouldn't make up for the loss adequetly.

Perhaps the ability to add to the high-risk trading kitty for all shopkeepers would be worthwhile. You can see what the kitty is if you go to the market, so having a high kitty can be used as an incentive to bring traders along.

Or just shunt some sales tax into the kitty?

It is the biggest weakness in the entire plan, but then traders probably shouldn't be ploughing through pillage after pillage anyways.

Christoban wrote: 
I like most of it, but think the '2 lane ocean' idea is silly and unnecessary.


I guess it's not necessary if league points are made sacred. The idea was to make it possible to sneak past PvP ships sailing at less than speed and just waiting for you to catch up with them.

Nemo wrote: 
You're all pirates. You're all out looking for ships to attack, with minimal risk to yourselves. But you're attacking each other. So nobody has anything.


So instead of traders getting upset when they get pillaged, everyone gets upset when they get pillaged?

SnowCrasher wrote: 
Allow players to accept transporting missions.


It's already been suggested, and I do like the idea.

Daplunderer wrote: 
I like the idea except for the auto-engage. You should still have to engage them yerselves.


I suggested this because I figure that if it's automatic, it gives PvPers one less option to pull out, and thus it makes it clearer to traders what will happen if they get too close to this ship.

 
I also think that if somebody buys a salt a drink, any "rich vessels" on routes the pirate was on recently (time period would need to be fooled around with, I think) would have a chance of being added to the salts knowledge. (Because the pirates would be talking to each other)


Ooh, I like.

 
I also think that a swabbie should sometimes just send tells to friends (only ones in the inn) if the majority of the people are not "friends" of the salt. The more often you buy him drinks, the more he likes you. His friendship would slowly decay if you don't buy him drinks. (He starts forgetting you a bit, after all, with all those friends, it's hard to keep track!) He would never dislike you, just drop more and more.


Pretty similar to what I was thinking, but you express it better. If I ever actually managed to say it.

Matt, who forgot the golden rule that no-one ever reads anything
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[Sep 27, 2004 11:21:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LongJohnGrey

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The trading missions sound very much like gem running.

I like the idea of a wide rumor network that talks about many ships. I like the idea that these ships will show up differently on your screen, and automatically appear in the auto-targetter. (Maybe even add a sound wistle when they show up). But I still think you should have to hit the attack button yourself -- maybe you're at full damage and bilge when you do run across them.

Although, I'd be happy for more obvious "players" vs "brigands" when sailing, and an easier time with the targetter.

 
Thus, the only way to make PvP 'fun' is to change things in such a way that traders are constantly threatened by PvP. It changes the activity of voyaging from one where you may be attacked to one where you almost certainly will be attacked, and quite possibly will be beaten to a bloody pulp if traders don't try to avoid fighting as much as possible.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. As long as PvP against merchants is seen as some sort of "violation of the unwritten social contract", it will have a vocal "PvP is bad" group on the forums. At the same time, if PvP against merchants becomes too frequent, we'll see fewer merchants, less shipping/trading, a less fluid economy, and possibly fewer subscribers.

Markoman wrote: 
Nemo wrote: 
a new programmer


*Smiles*

*cries* It wasn't me :-)
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Re: Market on Scurvy Reef:
Hypnos wrote: 
I didn't realize it was such a hot forage spot until I dropped it and three pirates showed up on the island in quick succession.
And it wasn't even 9 spaces from the arrow :-).
[Sep 27, 2004 1:23:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Christoban

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I agree with Snowcrasher here:

 
I think a large part of the problem would be solved simply by making huge incentive to become a transporter of goods/poe.


But I think Crasher is looking past the easy fix:

1) Greatly increase gem spawn rates. (this increases both the number of boats moving gems and the number of gems on each boat)

2) Implement the "Old Salt" parts of the original post above, but tie them to gem purchases only.


There. Done. No more adjustments necessary.

Your typical PvP crew hangs out in the bar at Tinga, brawling to sharpen up their swordfighting skills, while their captain buys drinks for the local old salt every 5 minutes, to get information about which boats are gem haulers. The salt drops the rumor that a boat full of gems is incomming, the captain yells for his crew to board, and off they go into the interarch route to try and catch the gem hauler. Simultaneously, the gem hauler gets a warning of which PvP crew is comming to get him, so he sends his first mate to the crow's nest and tells his mates to sail faster.

Sounds like fun to me.



 
At the same time, if PvP against merchants becomes too frequent, we'll see fewer merchants, less shipping/trading, a less fluid economy, and possibly fewer subscribers.


So just taylor that aspect of the game to the gem trade. Problem solved. If you're a badass trader and want to prove it, then go haul gems. If you're a badass PvPer and want to prove that you can whack the badass traders, then go harass the gem trade. 'Gem Hauling' is a concentual agreement to play the PvP game, so nobody can tart.

And the important thing about the idea is that it doesn't take much coding. Adjust 1 variable (gem spawn rate) and clean up the Old Salt subroutines, which are screwed up right now anyways..
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game design wrote: 
..let's see, we have thing A and thing B, with thing B currently not implemented yet. Thing A leads to people stabbing themselves in the eye, as does thing B... but since A already exists..

[Sep 27, 2004 9:31:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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*wonders if he's the only one that doesn't find any of these problems with PvP* It's fun (to many anyway) and that's how it should be. Why should it be written in The Code that there has to be an equal (or even remotely near equal) risks? Why should people have to put unnecessary cargo on board? It's fair from a Gameplay "You can only attack ships of the same general level or higher" point, why does it need to be fair otherwise?

I think PvP should be hit and miss, I think if you happen to find a ship with a handsome hold it should be by luck. It just seems off to me that people get guaranteed money if they beat other players, that just runs counter to what a pirate game would seem like to me. Sometimes you might hit a ship that carries nothing, sometimes you hit the mother load... dunno, but it seems like the way it should be to me.

If you really want to balance PvP, scale the brigands that Soloers spawn so they get exponentially nastier with the more cargo a ship has. It should not be easier and safer to move a ship full of valuables by yourself than with others, though currently it is. Not only is it easier against brigands, it pretty much enables you to float below the Radar of Non-Soloing PvPers.

Anyway, if people really want to force everyone to start carrying crap so that anytime a PvP happens the victors will get something, I guess that's fine too (if not a little off). Of course that means anytime you move an empty ship, for a wood run or for a Blockade, it won't be empty but full of goods that can be PvPed.
[Sep 28, 2004 3:17:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Seamusmclir

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Shuranthae wrote: 
*wonders if he's the only one that doesn't find any of these problems with PvP*


No, you weren't Shuranthae.. The only problem that we're seeing currently (and I'll note that I started out on your side of the fence, and am now sitting on the fence), is that with players sacking other players, theres an incredibly high chance of PvP'ers getting *NOTHING* for sacking other players ships. (I can counter that argument by saying I've been on ships carrying 20k+ in PoE after a long trip of pillaging).

While I don't have an inherint problem with this, I do understand where the folks on the 'minimum hold level' are coming from.

I think things should stay the way they are, but I understand those who would want it to change.
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[Sep 28, 2004 3:21:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.maghtuireadh.org/forum/    seamusmclir [Link]  Go to top 
morriscat



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Shuranthae wrote: 

If you really want to balance PvP, scale the brigands that Soloers spawn so they get exponentially nastier with the more cargo a ship has. It should not be easier and safer to move a ship full of valuables by yourself than with others, though currently it is. Not only is it easier against brigands, it pretty much enables you to float below the Radar of Non-Soloing PvPers.


This is great. I agree completely. I've always felt that soloing brigs to move commods was somehow not in keeping with the spirit of the game. Moving commodities in any sort of bulk SHOULD by rights be a communal effort of some kind.
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[Sep 28, 2004 3:24:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    m0rris13    morris013 [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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It always amazes me how the "balancing" suggestions make it better for the attackers and not the defenders.

You can exploit and not carry junk when you attack traders, they can exploit and fly solo to avoid your sorryness.

I'm seeing a tradeoff there.
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[Sep 28, 2004 3:58:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Cedric wrote: 
It always amazes me how the "balancing" suggestions make it better for the attackers and not the defenders.

You can exploit and not carry junk when you attack traders, they can exploit and fly solo to avoid your sorryness.

I'm seeing a tradeoff there.


Because I can solo well enough to solo PvP others regardless so if I wanted I could. I could also run an Able alt, then no one could possibly fly under the radar.
[Sep 28, 2004 4:07:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cedric

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Well, and each iteration becomes more complex, and harder to manage.

BTW, I'm not disagreeing that the solo exploit needs to be fixed, its just not near the core of the real problems with PVP.
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[Sep 28, 2004 4:13:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Maverick1701 [Link]  Go to top 
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