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Strider399

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Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Ahoy! I checked the flotilla suggestions thread, and did not find this in there.

I'll start off with a story :). One day, Striderrs decided to take a war frig into a Barnabas flotilla on Malachite. Upon entering , he found a Grand Frig spawn, which he groaned about, but continued with his escaped anyway. He ended up sinking 6 green ships, while dancing around and avoiding the Grand Frig, but when it came time to haul, he decided it would be a pretty good idea to sink Mr. GF. After about 15 turns of shooting the grand frig (well over 30 times), Mr. GF pulled out three tokens, and put poor Striderrs over 80% damage. Eventually Striderrs sank.


Nice story? :)


Anyway, enough of the rambling. It seems to me that ships inside flotilla's heal at rates that are literally, impossibly. After shooting a Grand Frig 30-40 times (30 is the maximum to sink one), it was still afloat, and doing 2-3 tokens a turn.

I was XOing on a War Brig flotilla at the start of Malachite, where we had been shooting a Merchant Brig for quite some time. After sending the ocean master on duty a tell, he proceeded to board the merchant brig, and report back that it was healing over 25% carp damage per turn.

My point/suggestion? Reduce the amount that a brigand ship can heal in a flotilla, and make it something more reasonable to a player vessel.


On another note - Has anyone experienced anything similar? I'm sure this isn't the first time this has happened.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Strider399 at Dec 16, 2008 10:56:33 PM]
[Dec 16, 2008 10:55:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mattmartin72

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Yes.
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Napalm
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[Dec 17, 2008 12:19:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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You find me a player vessel that can move around like a Barnabas grand frig and I might agree with you. He moves those things around like they are war brigs, I mean come on now. Really.

The only comparison you can use to Fighting Barnabas/Widow/Azarbad/Vargas frigs is to watch the matrix and remember what they said about agents and apply it to these things. You have to get extremely, extremely lucky and have an amazing crew to be able to put one down.

So... when you see a frigate, RUN!!!!!!
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BobJanova

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Is it possible? Yes. Get a MB or GF full of elites and I am sure you will see that sort of rate. However, no player would ever be able to staff a supply ship only with elites, nor a frigate. So it's not exactly 'fair'.

So what I suggest is a small penalty to the average skill of the bots for both green ships and large ships.

However, it can't be that bad as people actively seek out sinking flotillas and they get cleared very quickly. People can beat them when it's usually 5 or 6 ships against the one player ship, after all.
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[Dec 17, 2008 5:51:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mattmartin72

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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You have to get extremely, extremely lucky and have an amazing crew to be able to put one down.

So... when you see a frigate, RUN!!!!!!


Not really, yes they do take some killing, but they are far from impossible and usually something I aim for.
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[Dec 17, 2008 6:59:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Welcome to the World of Barny.
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[Dec 17, 2008 10:41:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Grinfish

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Anyway, enough of the rambling. It seems to me that ships inside flotilla's heal at rates that are literally, impossibly. After shooting a Grand Frig 30-40 times (30 is the maximum to sink one), it was still afloat, and doing 2-3 tokens a turn.

I'd say improbable as opposed to impossible. Oh, and Azarbhad's mercs would give your Barney frigs a run for their money, unless they've been tweaked in the last few months.
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randompanzy

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Is it possible? Yes. Get a MB or GF full of elites and I am sure you will see that sort of rate.


25% a turn i highly doubt any players can heal that much in one turn o_O
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Squashbuckle

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Maybe you're not supposed to kill all of the ships in the flotilla? Some obstacles are worth running from. Clearly you were having success destroying the flotilla if you sunk 6 green ships despite the presence of the GF. Sounds like it's working fine to me.
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Nooblar

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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I thought the repair rate on a player vessel was capped at 10%, with 100% incred carpers.

As for fair, versus unfair, the bots are stupid. Even Barny is dim, he just has more muscle to overcompensate. Compared to the ability to dodge them, if you really want to, the extra power they have is pretty in line with the risk/reward on flotillas.
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[Dec 17, 2008 1:17:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Discflicker



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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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I've had all-incredible carpers on my war brig and I don't even approach 25% a turn. 25% a turn is ridiculous.
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false_dmitri

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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I think the defense ship durability is fair if you view them as harassers rather than targets. They're meant to be very durable obstacles that get in the way of sinking greens. Mislead & avoid. Green ship repair rate is somewhat more frustrating, since anything short of a frigate will struggle to put enough damage on them before they break free and patch up. Bad for confronting low turnout nonsinking flotillas.

It's another story in blockades, where large numbers of those overpowered frigates can cause lots of trouble, especially if the player side has so-so turnout.
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selgnij



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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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For the sake of making the math easier, lets say you shot it 45 times over the course of 15 turns. Thats an average of 3 shots per turn. A GF can repair (I think) 3 large shots per turn. So its quite possible the ship was repairing as fast as you were damaging it. More believable, lets say Barney's crews can repair at about 2/3 efficiency. (average of high good) Or 2 large per turn. That would put them at about half damage after those 45 shots in 15 turns. I'm not sure on how bilge works, but a decent crew can keep a ship dry at 50% damage.

So basically with carp bots that are at 66% of max, and bilge manned by decent (Not poor but not terrific) bots, the GF could be kept dry after taking more shots than you estimate you put into it.

Based off the guide for XO's, how a ship really works.



 
I've had all-incredible carpers on my war brig and I don't even approach 25% a turn. 25% a turn is ridiculous.


Yep, 25% repair per turn is just crazy. In fact I think merc brigs are suppose to cap out somewhere around 20% per turn. (Non merchant ships cap at around 10% per turn.)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by selgnij at Dec 17, 2008 2:41:31 PM]
[Dec 17, 2008 2:38:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Well I know merchant ships have a deliberate advantage. I'm sure you can heal more than 10% on a sloop in a turn with full carp stations (you can completely heal your ship in much less than 10 turns on one carp station). 25% sounds high but certainly not impossible with all ultimate puzzlers.
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[Dec 17, 2008 6:04:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
HiimEric2001

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Bump.

Based on my experience today, I believe flotilla bots carp at an unreasonably high rate. I put many more shots into a MB than needed to sink it, over only a few turns. It's not reasonable to expect anybody but those able to fill frigs of highly skilled players to be successful. I don't even really care about sinking, just, we should have gotten that ship down before we sunk. And really, we likely wouldn't have sunk if I didn't do risky moves to try to get the last few shots into that ship. Even with some risky moves, I don't think I bnaved poorly.

I can't fathom how that boat stayed afloat. I've never experienced another situation in game where ships repair so quickly.
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pomfret

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Just as a matter of curiousity, does anybody recall when was the last time he/she actually made use of the cannonball manouvere and hit one of those thingeys with a fireball? Did it do anything useful to it? What about the bilge swamp manouvere?
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[May 18, 2009 1:01:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
daveyduderox

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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I had some fun once. Brought a sloop in, because my crews WB had already entered. I went to MB while everyone else was occupied with the WB and pumped 30 small cballs into it, hitting an average of 2 cballs a move. That was around 15 turns and not sank. Then a WB spawned and maxed me next move, htting me 6 times and the MB managed to move 2 spaces and avoid my moves. 1 space would not have suficed (wind preventing them from running in 1 move) If the MB stayed where it was they wouldn't of been able to hit me. They would be at 75% damage or so at least, judging by the guide at the provided link. Honestly I agree with this. They also seem to over produce manuvers. In the time it takes an average ship to produce a manuver they produce about 1.5-2. That is a bit a of pain too.
I agree carp is too easily recovered on their ships.
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[May 18, 2009 4:59:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
selgnij



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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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Do note that a long time ago, merchant ships (MB and MG) were made twice as easy to carp. (Something about players not being able to run them sensibly) So that means they either can repair up to 20% per turn, or they only need about half the incs to repair 10% a turn, and the rest are uneeded.

20 to sink, so either 4 or 2 max repair per turn. Either way, that means they needed only 50% carp efficiency to compleatly repair the damage you were causing. 25% efficiency puts them at 75% damage after 15 turns. Good bilgers will still be keeping bilge down. (Though at that point it should be creeping up.) I have no problem at all believing a ship got 2 move tokens after that. (Particularily if they were not burning through tokens for 5 turns prior to that.)

EDIT: Link to post about them being made easier to repair

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=271876#271876
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JJI of Malachite.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by selgnij at May 18, 2009 7:32:53 AM]
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Steveyohoho

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Re: Flotilla: Is the carp recovery rate of brigand ships fair? Reply to this Post
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3 points.
1. Realize that bilge leaks in slowly, its not instant that once you get them 75% damage, they will instantly have 50% bilge. Even on player ships, it doesn't work that way.
2. As a continuance of #1 realize that the ships in flotilla are fully staffed, versus most of the regular pillaging brigands you come across which are generally at least 10-20% understaffed, if not more. Thus, they have full bilge stations, thus, they should have good resistance against taking on bilge, thus, they will take on bilge even slower than you think.
3. Given points #2 and #1, you have to assume that the ships in flotilla will rarely go dead in the water. They will generate 1-2 moves per turn, PLUS if you are freshly attacking one, you don't know how many tokens they have saved up. The exception to this is sometimes you get lucky and they put no moves in for whatever weird AI reason...but there are usually consequences for you in that too....

My rule of thumb is basically that if you can't sink a green ship in 2-3 turns after majorly damaging it, its likely fairly repaired, so treat it like a ship with no damage. Especially if its still putting in 1-2 moves.

Also, I contest the ship full of "highly skilled" players thing. I job anyone with a distinguished or better on a duty stat and we do fine. Even job a few completely green to let them have a shot. Its more about long lasting jobbers than highly skilled really. The longer you stay at effective numbers (and knowing how to deploy your numbers effectively too ), the better your chances are.

And to the fireball question, I have seen it used recently. It was neat and helped bring down a WB I think, but it probably wasn't worth the effort. As for the bilge one, that's hard to use effectively unless you have a ship starting at your broadside. I generally don't end up with the gold tokens even in 3 hr flot runs. I end up using the silver ones in proper situations to catch the shippys unaware. Oh and the flot navvers code is that you must use all your built up tokens before you leave...if you aren't doing this, you will phail at all future ventures, and be laughed at by pointy head aliens.
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