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amberash



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Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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I was trying to set up free days for the flag to forage to raise money.... Paying foragers about average pay and any profit going to the flag. Thinking since it was a free day it would be a good day for even people that did not have a badge to contribute to a flag fundraiser.

But wait you cant.... Only labor badge holders may receive commodities from foraging but ye may play the puzzle.

I dont think this is fair to have 1 labor puzzle that takes away labor hours not contribute to labor but all the other puzzles you can contribute and get paid and produce labor.

Maybe we are lucky they have not turned off the labor for the free days for all the other puzzles.
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Amberash Meridian Ocean
Amberash on Obsidian
Senara on Emerald
[Sep 2, 2008 8:55:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ynahteb

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I made this point elsewhere, but...I think it has to do with foraging being a pure poe fountain, while other shoppe jobs are not. If I could fill a GF full of fruit for free every Tuesday with my myriad of alts, why would I bother buying a badge for myself, or pillaging for poe?

I maybe slightly agree that the disconnect is in that they both use the same labor hours. But I definitely do not think the proper solution is to make foraging really free on free forage day.
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Squee!
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mads0001

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On the other hand, since foraging uses labor fairly fast (one puzzle using 6 hours for example) If you had free labor it'd be pretty easy to just delete and create alts, play for a couple of hours and fill a Merchant Brig. I'm pretty glad they didn't leave any silly loopholes in there.

The difference between shoppe labor and foraging is simple. The income a shoppe generates is not from a poe fountain.

Kudos 000.
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[Sep 2, 2008 9:07:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
amberash



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Well if there is not really a free Foraging day like the other puzzles why is it listed like all the other labor puzzles with a free day? I understand it can be a POE fountain but if it is not free it should not be listed with a free day.
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Amberash Meridian Ocean
Amberash on Obsidian
Senara on Emerald
[Sep 2, 2008 9:15:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ynahteb

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Maybe the problem lies in the assumption that free puzzle days are for the purpose of making poe without a labor badge, rather than the purpose of playing the puzzles without a labor badge. It is still a free puzzle day in that you can play the puzzle without having to buy the associated badge, it is simply not a free labor day.
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Squee!
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Varthlokkur



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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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Lelantos wrote: 
 
I really hope Lelantos forgot that today is the free day for foraging, as that would make foraging work different from the rest of the crafting puzzles.

It does. You have always been required to have either a subscription or a labor badge to forage, and this has not changed. And for the record, my statement to the greeters on Cobalt was referring to foraging labor. I apologize for not making this clearer.


From the game design thread on this.
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Vistr of Innocent, of Crimson Tide
- Midnight, the grudge-holding ocean
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barrelmonkey

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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The difference between shoppe labor and foraging is simple. The income a shoppe generates is not from a poe fountain.

That's not the relevant difference. If the other crafting puzzles allowed you to pump through 6 labor hours with each session, the free puzzle days would be problematic there too. The important difference between shoppe labor and foraging is how much poe you can make with your time.
[Sep 2, 2008 10:27:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Rolld20

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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Well if there is not really a free Foraging day like the other puzzles why is it listed like all the other labor puzzles with a free day? I understand it can be a POE fountain but if it is not free it should not be listed with a free day.

Basically, the day gives access to the practice mode of the puzzle, which is otherwise not available to non-laborers. The only real difference between practice mode and real mode is the graphics, and the production of fruit.
Foraging is not like the other labor puzzles, because it uses up all the available hours in a few sessions; a skilled forager can easily get a day's catch in under 5 minutes. The designers have therefore disabled free-day production to prevent abuse by alt-army foragers.
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[Sep 2, 2008 10:36:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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The difference between shoppe labor and foraging is simple. The income a shoppe generates is not from a poe fountain.

That's not the relevant difference. If the other crafting puzzles allowed you to pump through 6 labor hours with each session, the free puzzle days would be problematic there too. The important difference between shoppe labor and foraging is how much poe you can make with your time.


Actually I don't care how quickly you get through the labor hours, because unless there's enough ordered at the shoppe you're not going to get paid. That problem doesn't exist with foraging, there's limitless fruit to grab, so you could alt/puzzle until doomsday and profit every time. Even if you provided labor for half the ocean, you'd not earn anything unless they all have orders waiting for you.
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rachaelj wrote: 

"your standing in patronising has gone up and is now respected in your archipelago"
spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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tlz_allen

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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Actually I don't care how quickly you get through the labor hours, because unless there's enough ordered at the shoppe you're not going to get paid. That problem doesn't exist with foraging, there's limitless fruit to grab, so you could alt/puzzle until doomsday and profit every time. Even if you provided labor for half the ocean, you'd not earn anything unless they all have orders waiting for you.


Mads may have hit on the possible solution right there. What if the amount of fruit on a given island were capped? Only so much of each kind and then it quits. This would give foraging the same restraints as a stall/shoppe, as labor in those places does not payt if there are no orders to be done. If there is no fruit to be foraged, then there is no benefit.

And it could spawn in shifts, much like gems, in that it would show up in chunks throughout the day and not all in one shot. Just a thought...
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TlzAllen
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mads0001

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I thought about that, but then isn't that heading back around to the exact reason fruit was brought in? (commod camping)

If that makes sense?
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spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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[Sep 2, 2008 11:33:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
barrelmonkey

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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Actually I don't care how quickly you get through the labor hours, because unless there's enough ordered at the shoppe you're not going to get paid. That problem doesn't exist with foraging, there's limitless fruit to grab, so you could alt/puzzle until doomsday and profit every time. Even if you provided labor for half the ocean, you'd not earn anything unless they all have orders waiting for you.

Well, you should care. Allowing people to create as much labor as they want with zero cost and minimal time is a serious problem, and even moreso when it isn't fountain. It would ruin regular labor for every pirate if we could use alts to magic up infinite labor for free. The problem is that labor can be created at zero cost, and the only reason that isn't a problem with the other crafting puzzles is because so little labor is produced by playing the puzzle.

Simply limiting the amount of fruit available wouldn't solve the problem, because legitimate subscribed/badged foragers would get screwed over. There's no point requiring a subscription/badge to get labor hours for foraging if you're going to give the labor hours away for free.
[Sep 2, 2008 11:37:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Then move foraging to the shipboard puzzle list where it belongs rather than pretending it's a crafting puzzle. After all, you have to be on a ship to do it, the deedholder or a crewmate needs to be there while you're doing it... it's just like treasure haul only you're in port instead of Atlantis.
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Mcgee5



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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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If you had free labor it'd be pretty easy to just delete and create alts, play for a couple of hours and fill a Merchant Brig.

You can't delete pirate until all puzzled labor hours have been earned. Or, if you puzzle you then have to wait until enough ours has passed before you can delete that pirate.

It'd be abusable by players with several accounts, though.

However, notice board news are misleading:
"Today's free game!
Foraging
Clear the crates to collect the bounty!"
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Current forum account: Unmcgee
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spy234

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If you can't forage for commods on a free day, what's the point in having one free day? Why not just make every day a free foraging day, but like the current system so that if you don't have a badge you can't forage for commods?
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randompanzy

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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If you had free labor it'd be pretty easy to just delete and create alts, play for a couple of hours and fill a Merchant Brig.

You can't delete pirate until all puzzled labor hours have been earned. Or, if you puzzle you then have to wait until enough ours has passed before you can delete that pirate.

It'd be abusable by players with several accounts, though.

However, notice board news are misleading:
"Today's free game!
Foraging
Clear the crates to collect the bounty!"


this is how it is on sub oceans and it would work well on dubs oceans too. just the multiple account things makes it abusable but it makes it better for the average pirates.

if this is a no go say that a computer can only forage 24 hours on a free day without a badge something like

your face looks like it has used all the free labor today

as people dont have lots of IP address/computers this would work
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blissbabe

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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if this is a no go say that a computer can only forage 24 hours on a free day without a badge something like

What happens if you're one of those people who have a whole family that play the game? Only one person gets to use the free hours?
That's not going to work..
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barrelmonkey

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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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if this is a no go say that a computer can only forage 24 hours on a free day without a badge something like

Rewarding people with access to a computer lab is unwise.
[Sep 3, 2008 8:34:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Varthlokkur



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Re: Free Foraging Days..... Or is it? Reply to this Post
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if this is a no go say that a computer can only forage 24 hours on a free day without a badge something like

Rewarding people with access to a computer lab is unwise.


Yeah, that's the hole there.

Maybe just use fruit spoilage to have more frequent sailing? The key solo concern seems to be someone sitting in a GF foraging it full. With a limited time frame before you need to sail, that's less of a problem (even with fast play, absent gold I'm not sure the return on time of solo-filling a sloop then sailing it 15+ leagues is so much better that it'd constitute a problem, but I'd need a number of timed forage sessions to generate an expected average time to get enough fruit to fill a ship's hold.

If you want to fill a bigger ship, you need to hire people.... and offer a competitive wage to try and hire enough people, to boot.
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- Midnight, the grudge-holding ocean
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basso

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If you can't forage for commods on a free day, what's the point in having one free day? Why not just make every day a free foraging day, but like the current system so that if you don't have a badge you can't forage for commods?


The point of the free forage day is to let people who do not have labor badges try the puzzle.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
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BobJanova

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I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately. (It would be a good way to encourage people to visit the islands further from civilisation if Lonelywood on Viridian and its equivalents elsewhere were 'foraged out'.) However, limited fruit buying, combined with fruit rotting in the hold (after say a day) might. PoE is only fountained when fruit is sold, and if you restrict that, you automatically restrict the amount of foraging that can be done.
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
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tlz_allen

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I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately.

And why not? We currently have limited spawns of ALL other commodities and it works just fine. A limited spawn would probably drive the price up on fruit as it would be come a little more 'rare'. It also wouldn't hurt if the fruit was incorporated into the design of some furniture or something. But a limited or periodic spawn, coupled with spoilage in the hold would go a long way to helping with the issues of foraging, and its abuses, in general.
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TlzAllen
Captain, The Dawntreaders
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Wyrenyth

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I can't remember whether or not Treasure Haul has a free day, but if it did, it would be the same. Sure, you could Treasure Haul, but you can't get to Atlantis without the badge. It would be too easy to abuse the system if they actually tried to make it free, and I'm pretty happy with the way the system sits right now.

I would like to see the incorporation of fruit as more then a saleable good - maybe into different kinds of rum?
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Dylan

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I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately.

And why not? We currently have limited spawns of ALL other commodities and it works just fine. A limited spawn would probably drive the price up on fruit as it would be come a little more 'rare'.


The whole point of introducing fruit in the first place is to provide a baseline for what is "normal" pay.
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marundel

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I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately.

And why not? We currently have limited spawns of ALL other commodities and it works just fine. A limited spawn would probably drive the price up on fruit as it would be come a little more 'rare'.


The whole point of introducing fruit in the first place is to provide a baseline for what is "normal" pay.


Documentation please?
----------------------------------------
Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince, Super Awesomeness
SO, Boochin' Drunks

Pizzahutpete everywhere, thanks to the merge
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TarnumTheRed

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I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately.

And why not? We currently have limited spawns of ALL other commodities and it works just fine. A limited spawn would probably drive the price up on fruit as it would be come a little more 'rare'. It also wouldn't hurt if the fruit was incorporated into the design of some furniture or something. But a limited or periodic spawn, coupled with spoilage in the hold would go a long way to helping with the issues of foraging, and its abuses, in general.

It wouldn't work because everyone has the ability to bid on the other limited commods. Fruit would be a first come, first serve basis, which is why foraging commods was turned off in the first place, and now Gems are nerfed. You would simply be creating the same problem they have already had to address twice.

 
 
 
 
I don't think limited fruit spawn would work, unfortunately.

And why not? We currently have limited spawns of ALL other commodities and it works just fine. A limited spawn would probably drive the price up on fruit as it would be come a little more 'rare'.


The whole point of introducing fruit in the first place is to provide a baseline for what is "normal" pay.


Documentation please?

This exact point was discussed in another thread as well. Someone provided the link that this was one of the original purposes, however, it is not used in practice in any manner. No stall owner looks at foraging as the base for setting their rates.
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Tarnum

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Muroni wrote: 
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by TarnumTheRed at Sep 4, 2008 12:37:24 PM]
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sweetnessc

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The effect is more on the other side - what the labourer is willing to accept for their labour. Keep in mind that all labour at the time was subscription labour and was in much more limited supply than is the case on doubloon oceans.
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wrs1864b

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The whole point of introducing fruit in the first place is to provide a baseline for what is "normal" pay.

Documentation please?

This exact point was discussed in another thread as well. Someone provided the link that this was one of the original purposes, however, it is not used in practice in any manner. No stall owner looks at foraging as the base for setting their rates.

While few, if any shopkeepers on dub oceans worry about whether it pays more to forage than take shop jobs, that is only because labor on dub oceans is badly broken. The subject does pop up on sub oceans and there the rise in wages on Cobalt appears to have directly lead to a rise in the price of gold due to reduced foraging.

Foraging not providing a floor on wages on dub oceans is a problem that needs to be fixed.
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Squashbuckle

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Foraging not providing a floor on wages on dub oceans is a problem that needs to be fixed.


Doubs are sunk when goods are delivered. Goods are delivered when they are ordered and completed. No one wants to wait four days for a swashie they're spending $2 to deliver.

Overabundance of labor on doubloon oceans is good business (and makes the game more fun) and should not be "fixed."
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Polly
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Squashbuckle at Sep 5, 2008 3:03:46 PM]
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wrs1864b

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Foraging not providing a floor on wages on dub oceans is a problem that needs to be fixed.

Overabundance of labor on doubloon oceans is good business (and makes the game more fun) and should not be "fixed."

Having enough labor so that things don't take forever does not require the ability to have lots of labor alts, nor does it require low wages. Yes, labor is broken on sub oceans in a completely different way.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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