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Faulkston

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[Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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Inspired by Jacksparrow's resource tree for all the shoppes (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=5650), I devised a chart of the Puzzle Pirates economy:



and the slightly higher bandwidth consuming GIF version: http://photobucket.com/albums/v376/Faulkston/economy-small.gif

Unfortunately photobucket.com (www.photobucket.com) scales images that are larger than 256KB, thus I have to host larger images on my (presumably but they haven't cut my access yet) bandwidth limited Angelfire account, which also does not allow either inline or direct linking to images. Hence I can't put even a hyperlink to the image below, you'll have to copy it to a web browser address bar:

http://angelfire.com/fang/faulkston/images/economy-large.gif
http://angelfire.com/fang/faulkston/images/economy-large.jpg


Special thanks to atteSmythe's Governor in a Box project (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=10166) which made it easier to extract images of the various buildings from their backgrounds. Also thanks to Jacksparrow's resource tree for the inspiration.

EDIT: diagram updated and GIF versions created (thanks atteSmythe!). File sizes were halved compared to PNG and I could hardly see any difference in color rendering. This is because the palettes for the building images are all identical, thus the final image uses a limited number of colors (around 256).

EDIT: The color differences between GIF and PNG versions are there but aren't particularly pronounced. It's most apparent in yellows and shading on some of the commodities. Buildings are for the most part unaffected.

EDIT: Confirmation about navy wages comes from Artemis.
[quote:bf4be4849b="Artemis, in another thread,"]Navy wages are taken directly out of the hole in the sky (yes, that's a technical term...) and are not, as stated in the documents, taken from the palace coffers. My guess is that they intend for them to eventually be taken from the palace.[/quote]
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[Edit 7 times, last edit by Faulkston at Aug 20, 2004 5:38:22 AM]
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Tedv



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A few corrections. First, Old Man's Beard is now used by weavers. Second, Navy wages aren't paid from palace funds.
[Aug 20, 2004 5:41:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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tedv wrote: 
A few corrections. First, Old Man's Beard is now used by weavers. Second, Navy wages aren't paid from palace funds.

Thanks for the weaver tip, I'd forgotten about the brown cloth update!

Not being a governor I obtained the navy wages information from a screenshot that a governor took of the interface (http://madmutineers.com/viewtopic.php?t=775). I understand now that the navy operating expenses are deducted from the tax revenues before they enter the palace coffers. Of course this interface screenshot could be out of date.

I'll edit the chart when I have time.
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atteSmythe

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Re: Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates economy chart Reply to this Post
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Faulkston wrote: 
I have PNG format files available without the (admittedly few) JPEG artifacts. However the file sizes are larger, so I'd definitely need a better image host.

Try reducing your colors to 256 (no dithering) before saving. Not sure if it'll save you size with a .PNG, it'll let you try .GIF, which, while not an Open format, can be considerably smaller.

Edit:
It'd also be a pretty major tweak, but I'd like to see PoE Fountains separated from PoE Recyclers - shop wages are a recycler, for example, whereas skellies, brigands, gem markets, and navy wages are fountains.

Edit2:
It's otherwise fantastic! I'm looking forward to taking a moment to explore it more thoroughly.

atteSmythe,
who loves the .PNGs, but admits they get out of hand in a hurry
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silverkitty



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Re: [Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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meh. I just have 386k SDSL, but no monthly limit. so don't crash me or keep me from playing the game :) and here it be:

http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/economy-large.jpg

http://www.silverchat.com/~silver/economy-large.gif

Faulkston - contact me when you have an update.

(edit: got the updated images for end of August 20th)
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[size=9]Avatar by Peter Pan
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by silverkitty at Aug 20, 2004 6:04:38 AM]
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jarkaruus

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http://www.lemonyfresh.com/ypp/economy-large.jpg This is off a colo box I have free access too, ah the perks from working at a small start up years ago. Have at it.
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Faulkston

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What is the color bit depth of the graphics displayed by the Puzzles Pirates client? I'm wondering if there will be any significant loss of quality in going to 256 colors. I did notice that the PNG format was getting rather large (over 1 MB - out of hand alright!), I only chose it to preserve detail.

I'm hazy on PoE fountains, even brigands.

Do brigands only create PoE and never give back PoE pillaged from players?

There was a post about who buys gems (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=10757). Someone replied that because the markets are dev/OM owned, they have a magic money supply. If this is true, then markets are both PoE fountains and sinks.

Skellies take money from wagers but also come with 100 PoE to divide amongst the winners, as far as I can tell from the all about skeletons post (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=2796). I'm not sure how on my chart to separate the wagers pirates make from the skelly PoE fountain. As I'm not an artist (perhaps a poor exuse of a technical layout artist!), if anyone wants to make a skelly graphic, I'd love to include one in my chart. Currently the skelly portion of the chart is a little plain!

The whole PoE fountain (source) / sink concept was another factor behind me wanting to make this large chart. Maybe I could use a fountain icon to indicate PoE sources and a sink to show PoE sinks?

If anyone wants the component graphics to make some sort of other chart, just contact me.

EDIT: Are navy ships PoE fountains or are their wages sustained by taxes?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Aug 20, 2004 6:26:36 AM]
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Faulkston

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Re: [Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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Thanks for the image hosting, I'll have to update my chart and get it out there.
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altmerman55



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Re: [Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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Nevermind, just noticed it on the chart.

Looks good mate. Keep up the good work. :)
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[size=10]Sheo says, "We're duking it out after this"
Peax says, "With great pleasure."
Feegle says, "You guys DO know that it's the arguing, and not the poe or blood, that convinces me to come along on your pillages, right?"

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by altmerman55 at Aug 20, 2004 6:35:20 AM]
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DrunknBfly

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Re: [Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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That would just be a lovely poster. (=
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jarkaruus

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altmerman55 wrote: 
Just wondering, is the money from withdrawl and transfer fees in the bank a POE sink?

Looks good mate. Keep up the good work. :)


Withdrawl amount is set by the govener(or bank owner) and i believe goes to the palace coffers. transfer fee is a POE sink though.
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atteSmythe

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Re: [Large image] YPP! non-doubloon economy diagram Reply to this Post
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What is the color bit depth of the graphics displayed by the Puzzles Pirates client? I'm wondering if there will be any significant loss of quality in going to 256 colors. I did notice that the PNG format was getting rather large (over 1 MB - out of hand alright!), I only chose it to preserve detail.

It's higher than 256, but I've found the tradeoff to be reasonable when bandwidth is a concern.

atteSmythe,
who just tested again, and again loves layer modes...
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Faulkston

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jarkaruus wrote: 
altmerman55 wrote: 
Just wondering, is the money from withdrawl and transfer fees in the bank a POE sink?

Looks good mate. Keep up the good work. :)


Withdrawl amount is set by the govener(or bank owner) and i believe goes to the palace coffers. transfer fee is a POE sink though.

From the governor interfaces someone posted a screenshot of, the withdrawal fees go to the bank coffers, which is why I have a loop for that "transaction" on the chart. Whether the bank owner, who might be different to the governor, or only the governor can access the bank coffers, I really don't know.

As for skellies being a PoE fountain, I could put an arrow coming in labelled magic skellie prize PoE fund :-)

I'm dreading the amount of updating I'll have to do when paint and potions are implemented in the game. I'm still looking forward to these features though, they've been a long time in the developing. They should be an excellent addition to the Puzzle Pirates Ocean.

EDIT: Are there any volunteers to make a webpage containing an image map linking the economy chart to the individual parts of Jacksparrow's resource tree?
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xagoloth

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Very nicely done mate! I am humbled that my silly work inspired you to do this wonderful work.

I will host it on my site with full credits to you. You don't have to worry about bandwidth. =)

PM if you have other great ideas that are limiting you by bandwidth or web space, I can help you out.
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Faulkston

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xagoloth wrote: 
Very nicely done mate! I am humbled that my silly work inspired you to do this wonderful work.

I will host it on my site with full credits to you. You don't have to worry about bandwidth. =)

PM if you have other great ideas that are limiting you by bandwidth or web space, I can help you out.

Ooh thanks and I was thinking my work was silly. I was just waiting for someone to say that the chart was a waste of time and didn't say anything they didn't already know.

My chart has already cleared up some misconceptions I've held (thanks to everyone who pointed out the problems). I still can't quite work out exactly how the navy pays players. The PoE sources in the game are after all hidden variables, if they were easy to work out, they wouldn't be hidden.
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Tedv



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Faulkston wrote: 
My chart has already cleared up some misconceptions I've held (thanks to everyone who pointed out the problems). I still can't quite work out exactly how the navy pays players. The PoE sources in the game are after all hidden variables, if they were easy to work out, they wouldn't be hidden.


I think the navy pay is just magicked up like brigand booty is. Where else can it come from? You can remove all the cash from the palace coffers (after paying rent) and still get paid.
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Faulkston

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tedv wrote: 
Faulkston wrote: 
My chart has already cleared up some misconceptions I've held (thanks to everyone who pointed out the problems). I still can't quite work out exactly how the navy pays players. The PoE sources in the game are after all hidden variables, if they were easy to work out, they wouldn't be hidden.


I think the navy pay is just magicked up like brigand booty is. Where else can it come from? You can remove all the cash from the palace coffers (after paying rent) and still get paid.

From what I understand, the palace only receives tax less shoppe maintenance and navy upkeep (including wages?). I see your point though, the navy keeps running even if the palace coffers are empty. The money could indeed be magicked up, I haven't yet seen an island with all the shoppes closed down and the navy not paying pirates to verify my guess. There is a message in the client files that says that your pirate can't be paid since the navy's run out of funds but it might not be used if pay indeed comes out of thin air.
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[Aug 20, 2004 9:38:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Charts updated. Let's assume navy ships magic up PoE to pay players until evidence to the contrary surfaces.
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Rubby



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Faulkston wrote: 

From what I understand, the palace only receives tax less shoppe maintenance and navy upkeep (including wages?).


It's magicked up. Also, only the bank owner can access the bank coffers.
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54x

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Market bidding and gem selling (but not gem buying) are both poe sinks.
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Faulkston

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54x wrote: 
Market bidding and gem selling (but not gem buying) are both poe sinks.

Correct because OMs/devs run the markets and can magic up PoE (it's automagic really) to buy gems. Therefore there's no need to store PoE from commodity and gem sales.

This also applies to navy wages as there's no way to know a priori how much money to have available to pay pirates for their puzzling (unless of course the navy does actually run out of money). This would make the navy operation fee a true PoE sink and not go into a pool to pay the navy wages.

EDIT: Chart updated.
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Faulkston

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I corrected a slight oversight in the diagram concerning Fort and Palace differences. See Cleaver's post:

http://www.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=97084#97084

The gist is that a Fort is a combined Commodity Market and Palace without navy (sorry outpost islands!). It used to cost more to run than both combined (10k weekly upkeep but now only 5k, so I don't know if statement is true anymore).

Things which will probably never be on my chart:
  • ]Bazaars: They act the same way as shoppes do, throwing them in would be eye candy, nice to look at but no added value. This goes for upgraded structures as well.

  • ]Familiars: Um, not going there.[/list:u:6ff81a696f]
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    [Edit 9 times, last edit by Faulkston at Aug 31, 2004 7:35:33 AM]
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atteSmythe

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Faulkston wrote: 
It doesn't operate as well as either (is this less commodity production than a Market?) and costs more to run.

No. The difference in production is between foraging and fort, not between fort and market.

atteSmythe,
who can say that much, at least, makes outposts nifty
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Faulkston

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atteSmythe wrote: 
No. The difference in production is between foraging and fort, not between fort and market.

atteSmythe,
who can say that much, at least, makes outposts nifty

Oh good, otherwise outpost islands would get short changed (that's a joke... :-) ) on both the lack of a navy and lower production. As far as I can tell they may only build a Fort and one shoppe (though a bazaar instead has been proposed).
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54x

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Yeah. The whole point of the market is to reduce the tax you pay on the fort, allowing you to reduce the overall tax rate, if you want.
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Faulkston

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Decaying items have been added, along with the sales tax PoE sink.
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Rones_



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I'm very impressed...
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Faulkston

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Hemp oil, whisking potion, paint brush, paint, enamel and more gem pictures added. Oh my.

Sales tax isn't a complete sink, about 10% goes to the fort / palace in addition to portion of the weekly tax (rent) that's in excess of the maintenance cost. If the island tax rate is 0%, no additional weekly tax over baseline is incurred. The palace weekly maintenance could only be met out of sales tax proceeds.

It used to be possible to subsidize rent but this is no longer the case.

About 10% of the blockade war chest goes to the defender upon a successful defense of a colonized island.
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You still have the navy as a PoE fountain. As far as I know, it comes out of the palace coffers. (correct me if I'm wrong).
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Faulkston

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lizthegrey wrote: 
You still have the navy as a PoE fountain. As far as I know, it comes out of the palace coffers. (correct me if I'm wrong).

I already got into an argument (reasoned debate) about that earlier in this thread. The navy keeps paying out money even if the palace coffers are empty. The sunk portions of sales tax and weekly tax supposedly cover both shoppe maintenance and navy operation but in actual fact the money just magically appears to pay navy wages. Any excess tax beyond shoppe maintenance goes into the palace coffers and the palace upkeep must be paid from this.

Estate agents, inns, bazaars (as opposed to bazaar stalls) and banks pay no weekly tax as far as I can tell. Estate agents don't have very regular income, banks have little income (withdrawal fees but not transfer fees), and inns and bazaars have no income. Therefore tax on these buildings doesn't make sense. Markets may or may not pay tax, though since they're owned by the Ringers, we don't know and it doesn't matter even if they do pay tax.

I had some thoughts about the PoE that brigands pillage from players. Since the payout when you pillage brigands is based on some complicated formula involving might (maybe) and how many players (and swabbies) are on your ship, this is in effect the same as brigands sinking pillaged PoE and generating new PoE when they get pillaged.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Oct 31, 2004 7:04:57 AM]
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