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muffy



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PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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Chatting with me crew while hunting skellies last night, we found we felt much the same way about many recent changes to the game. It feels like we keep finding fun things to do in the game, and they keep getting taken away from us, mostly in the name of "encouraging PvP" or "encouraging hiring of junior Pirates" (junior Pirates is me new name, post tournament, for new people).

We're bewildered by this, as what it feels like to us is that it's being made harder and harder to have fun in the game. The only thing that remains about as fun is skelly fighting, and even there, the lack of money whisking means that they're poorer than they used to be, since not as many people can run over to fight 'em. Luckily, we're not worried about the money, we just like the challenge and the occasional cool weapon. It was also fun to see one climb out of the chest last night, and fun to see another walk out of a building in town the other day. Yay for skellies.

Now, maybe it's just us (people can post to agree or disagree), since I've always been a non-PvPer, and I've probably collected a crew with similar views (for the most part - certain members are quite bloodthirsty...*smile*), but it really doesn't matter how much ye put in the game to encourage PvP, I just won't be all that interested in doing it. Meanwhile, there are definitely crews who want to do PvP (such as the Mariners, who I'm really starting to miss - I never thought I'd say that!), but it's simply not profitable for them, and in these days of expensive and rare rum, it's ridiculous to even try.

In the old days, as I was sailing along peaceably kicking brigand fundament, it actually did add to the fun of the game to see Spleen comin' along after me and have to evade him (or die horribly under the dogpile of npps on his larger ship), until the one time when the rum bug hit me. This latter was (mostly) corrected by the "grace period" (and the rum bug fix, which I devoutly hope is permanent!). Every so often I would sign up a new pirate, sail with them a while, and probably add them to me crew. It was fabulous. A lot of puzzling, a little bit of PvP, a reasonable flow of new crew members, and the occasional skelly fight on the side (as there were no ferries, hunts took a lot longer, so we engaged in them rarely). When trading came in, that was fun too, when there was a couple thousand in profit to be had for a medium-length voyage. No camping, no running a shop and desperately trying to supply it.

If PvP was like skelly fights, I'd do it much more often. Barroom brawls, let's say. I'm there. Let 'em pick me pocket while they're at it - maybe kick me out of the inn if I don't come in with a certain amount of booty in me pockets. Ye could use this to make inns profitable for the owners as well - they get a percentage of yer pocket as ye walk in (for yer rum), and a percentage of any winnings in the fight (to pay for the damage, of course!). Arranged sea battles, also fine, with a "purse" for the winner, similar, perhaps, to a bet on drinking or swordfighting. I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in this, my crew among them.

That's assuming the cost of shot and rum made it reasonable to put to sea, which right now it doesn't - I can't make a profit pillaging on fine rum at 70 per unit, particularly as we're suckin' down the rum even during the sea battle, and the profit from the battle is low enough that I'd have to take a HUGE percentage from the booty to cover the rum used just DURING the battle, much less the rum used to get there in the first place.

About all the new changes to make ye take money to sea. I do it every so often, bury it, and then spend me life 'porting money for people by takin' it at one place and givin' 'em some from me stash at another place. I also finance most of the skelly hunts. So I take significant money to sea quite rarely; maybe once in 20-30 times that I take a ship out. Sure, there's the booty, but these days that's so tiny that the 20% of it is not as much as ye'd likely get from hitting a bandit. So I really think this idea has failed to have any impact other than an annoyance factor for everyone, but particularly those with very little money (which is why I help them out when I can).

About encouraging hiring junior pirates. Well, I still like to sail mostly with me experienced crew - me crew is like a tight-knit group of friends now, and for the most part, it's very relaxing to sail with them, as everyone knows what to do and does it well. And that is FUN. Win or lose, brigands or no brigands, it's just fun to work with a group of people who work well together and have compatible personalities. The chat is great, and the stress is low. Yes, we'll take on junior pirates, but no change ye make is going to make us take them on at a faster rate. We have our own way of training, which involves a lot of one-to-one interaction, and it's simply not feasible on a huge ship full of junior pirates. One-to-one, with a bunch of experienced people on board, training adds some interest. One-to-many, the questions are overwhelming, the order-giving is exhausting, and the losses are discouraging. I'd do it every once in a while, but as a public service, not to have FUN.

What does this all lead up to? I'm not sure exactly. There are various ideas above, but I think me main point is, ye can't force me to have fun yer way. If all me opportunities for having fun my way are taken away or made hard, I'll go do something else. Maybe that's fine, maybe I just don't have fun with the game as it is intended to be, and that's life, but maybe in fact ye are working too hard to realize a particular vision while many people actually like what ye already have. And I personally don't think the changes are working for anyone. Implement bar fights (as above), and ye'll see a lot more PvP than ye will by disallowing whisking of money. Limit junior pirate influx to something related to the number of active crews and ye'll see a lot fewer junior pirates on the docks. Make trading fairly profitable, and shop owning not too onerous, and ye'll see more fat trading vessels at sea available for pillage. Right now, market production is so low that, again, maybe 1 in 50 player vessels even has anything worthwhile on board, and it's not worth the rum to seek 'em out and catch 'em.
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[Jul 28, 2003 2:10:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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clinging to the past Reply to this Post
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Oh yeah, some of me issues above might well be seen as "clinging to the past," and they probably are, but I ralso eally do think that I've tried to appreciate all the changes and the complexity they add to the game, and I did appreciate many of the early ones, but lately it seems to be harder to do. Perhaps, though, I'm just old and set in me ways...*smile*.
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[Jul 28, 2003 3:42:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Bluebeard
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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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Rifkind, you make a lot of good points here as you usually do. However, I am interested in how they tie together with your complaint that we keep moving the game away from what is "already fun." Could you be specific in terms of which changes we made that change it from fun to too hard? We definitely don't want to keep taking the fun things out of the game and away from players since that is basically the opposite of what we are aiming to do.
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[Jul 28, 2003 4:13:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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I think, overall, that one of the things that *could* seem less fun is that it's harder and more expensive to go out and pillage. And because it's harder and more expensive, and we have a huge influx of people, the vast majority can't go afford to go out and demand that we take them (along with all the demands for free stuff and free transportation).

I am more inclined to see this as temporary, but I also have exponentially increased my Y!PP patience by cutting back the length (but not frequency) of my sessions.

I am glad ye are addressing the commodity shortages, but it seems like a better time to put the employment max in would be when crafting is connected. Replacing one shortage for another still leaves you short.

And I mean this in the nicest way, but I think you're plain ol' burned out, Rifkind; the current state of the game (and your memory of the ultra-simple days of yore) surely contributed, but you're on A LOT. Like, a lot a lot. I actually got burned out maybe 6 months ago (?) and stopped for a couple weeks. Came back, didn't dive in as enthusiastically, and have been much happier ever since.

Maybe take a vacation, from us at least.
[Jul 28, 2003 4:27:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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having fun Reply to this Post
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Ye're right, Bluebeard, sorry about that. Another of me long rambling posts that I really don't know where it's going...*smile*. There are some specific things that I miss, like bein' able to fill me ship with npps, but I'm over a lot of it and I've learned to enjoy different things (plus I've grown me crew to a point where I can at least fill up me small sloop the majority of the time).

However, some specifics. Price of cannonballs makes 'em unusable. Price of rum makes even successful pillaging voyages marginally profitable at best. Shortage of herbs and some minerals, and significantly lowered production of same at markets makes trading marginally profitable at best. Lack of whisking of money frustrates mostly the cash-strapped players, and is only a minor inconvenience for me, but adds to me workload if I choose to help people out, as I usually do. Change to labour makes production of items take too long. Sure, if I ordered a ship in real life, I wouldn't expect it to be done that day, but in game, I'm standin' around on the docks tappin' me foot and fumin' at me lack of ship, after all me hard work to make and save the money for it. Even worse if the shipbuilder needs some scarce iron, which I can't provide due to me lack of ship/crew officership. Swabbie number limits make it impossible to take the brig trading alone (and it's painful even with a bunch of crew), making shipping of large-volume items like wood or hemp a matter of painful duty rather than fun. And the profits still aren't very good. Havin' to pick up yer wages at distant markets is unfeasible for many players (aye, ye can ferry there, but how do ye get home again, unless ye have a friendly crew to make the trip both ways), lowering employment there. Meanwhile, labour limits at home means most people can't get jobs.

Ramble ramble. Let's narrow it down a bit:

1. Pillaging just isn't sufficiently profitable anymore, with the cost of shot and rum, and the scarcity of both, as well as a scarcity of pillageable brigands. I've lost money on the shot and rum when I've gone out the last few times, even though I've brought in 500-1000 pieces of eight. I don't want to cut into the profits of me crew; why should they spend an hour of real time pillaging to make less than they can make jobbing with the navy, even with reduced navy wages? If I pay them well, why should I finance a voyage at a loss to me? Can't win here.

2. Running a shoppe is a serious pain, due to the resource and labour shortages, which appear to have gotten even worse in the most recent update. I'm now out of the direct game, but still feeling the pain in trying to help supply shoppes. Subtopic of this is how ridiculously unsatisfying and unprofitable trading is the majority of the time (ye can occasionally make a killing in iron, if ye're lucky, but otherwise it's barely profitable and very time-consuming). I don't like trading at all anymore, I just do it to help people out.

3. Most changes seem to be biasing the game to the benefit of large crews with many junior pirate members/jobbers. I'd LIKE to pull together as many crew as I can, add a jobber or two, load up me brig, and go galleon-hunting, as in the old days, but with the damage from our shot being almost nonexistant, the profits being smaller than the cost of the shot, having a small crew, and being limited on swabbies, it's just not going to happen. Plus, I hear a rumour that ye only get Kraken's Blood now from large ships; if this is true, and if it's true of other rare commodities/maps as well, it makes these interesting finds out of our league most of the time. We still can defeat the occasional brig, but since they shoot back and damage us more than we damage them, even if we win, we often have a tediously long period of carpenting and bilging before we're ready to catch something else. A great deal of work, little or no profit, and long periods with no battling. Where's the fun?

Summary:

Pillaging: little fun (still like the actual sea battle, though!)
Trading: no fun
Shoppekeeping: no fun
Skelly fighting: lots o' fun
Duty puzzling: pretty fun, but I've done it all so much...not as fun as it was
Hosting tournaments: kind of fun, could be better
Chatting with me crew: lots of fun, except when everyone is downcast due to the things mentioned above
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[Jul 28, 2003 4:58:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 

And I mean this in the nicest way, but I think you're plain ol' burned out, Rifkind; the current state of the game (and your memory of the ultra-simple days of yore) surely contributed, but you're on A LOT. Like, a lot a lot. I actually got burned out maybe 6 months ago (?) and stopped for a couple weeks. Came back, didn't dive in as enthusiastically, and have been much happier ever since.


Aye, and I'm working on this. Taking breaks has helped. However, I'm really not just talking about me; I've been talking to several other people who have the same issues. Could be we're all burnt out, of course...*smile*. Plus, not just burnt out but "been there, done that." I HAVE tried to take that into account, though.
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[Jul 28, 2003 5:01:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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I agree that one thing that would help make pillaging more profitable just now would be to stop drinking rum during the sea battle, if that's possible to implement...if you're out for a few long fights it can seriously get through it. Now that there are plenty of targets it's great, but today I got through 2 or 3 rum during one fight and then scooped 105 poe which didn't cover what was drunk during it. (Ok that's solo, so a higher division of the crew cut would cover it with players on board, but it would have to be a pretty high percentage just now.)

When the commodities settle down to a better level then prices will drop a bit, but it's still going to make it a fair whack of a crew cut if the rum continues to be drunk; more players tends to mean longer battles so a smaller ship doesn't have nearly the difficulties of trying to stock a brig full of players with enough rum to get from a to b!

(And apart from the sea battles, I don't know HOW much it would cost me in rum when I booched nav on a brig and had to try to get up speed again...)
[Jul 28, 2003 5:08:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aralyn



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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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The using rum during battle is another thing that has cut down trading a whole lot. Trying to get to Spring I got intercepted 4 times in the first 3 leagues (and usually get intercepted at least 4 or more during that long trip on all runs). Since the swabbies' skills in sailing and token production seem to have reduced greatly, I don't always get away so have to wait through the battle. It helps if I have some good crew mates to take along with me, but they are not always on. I try to take some new members with me instead, but since they are still learning, they don't add much to the swabbies token production either.

So all the rum used in all those fights, plus most likely having to pay someone to come with you (if you have no friends on at the time that just want to help), is another reason I feel that most people that like to trade before won't be doing it as much now. All the profits will be eaten from the high cost of rum at the moment, and sometimes they may come out behind instead of ahead.

Also it seems that finally getting up to full speed now does not stop the brigands from attacking. If going full speed still helped to out run them, then it might not be AS bad.

Ashlyn
[Jul 28, 2003 5:23:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pythos

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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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Since it was asked, I'd like to add another thing to what has cut down on the 'fun' factor so far. Keep in mind, I don't play this game to be a shop keeper, or to make a ton of money by trading and camping etc. I like this game because it allows me to play puzzle games - one of my favorite game genres - cooperativly with other people. So while changes to the economy or to shopkeeper or whatever don't really bother me, changes to the puzzles affect the way I play the game.

As far as puzzles go, I liked that there was a good mix. If you navigated or sailed, it mixed in a good percentage of speed and planning, since the pieces were constantly moving.

On the other side, if you wanted to bilge or carp, that really didn't rely on speed, and I could take some time planning huge combo moves. I didn't necessarily go fast on those, but once I found the combo, things would move great.

Now it seems, to get a good score, you gotta be fast at everything, and the puzzles are pretty much the same. Whereas before I could chose what kind of puzzling mood I was in - whether it be fast paced with sailing or nav, or slow planning paced with carp and bilge - now every puzzle is 'forget about big combos, just clear as much little stuff as you can or else you'll booch'.

Like I pointed out in another thread, halfway though a league, I decided to bilge to clear out what little bilge we had. I made one move, and made a combo that cleared something like 13 lines, and by the time it was done, we were at the league marker. I got a 'good' on that league where in the past, I would have gotten an 'incredible'. The puzzles all just seem too identical right now, there is not the variety there was, since scoring is a big part of the game.

I know it's beta and the puzzles were just changed and are going through some flux, and I really do love this game, but I just though I'd share my impressions. There is a chance things could even out, but as it stands now, the puzzling variety didn't take a good step with this latest patch.
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[Jul 28, 2003 6:15:58 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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muffy wrote: 
Pillaging: little fun (still like the actual sea battle, though!)

Re: Pillaging Profitability, I was out pillaging on Saturday night and the crew cleared a very handsome sum indeed, after rum. I agree that balls are ludicrously priced such that they are not worth using right now, and that rum could come down quite a bit, but I have issue with the unprofitability question. I also had a lot of fun doing it.
 
Trading: no fun

It's fun when you make a score, but not fun otherwise. As previously mentioned we are going to take steps to boost this side of the game. Top secret steps, for now.
 
Shoppekeeping: no fun

I take issue with this. Lots of folk have told me that running a shoppe is great fun. I agree that shortages make it a lot less fun.

On every front it sounds like shortages of commodities (and the lack of robustness in trading) is probably the primary culprit. We acknowledge the problem (referring back to the incredible growth rate) and are taking steps both temporary and longer time to solve it.

The other big 'not fun' issue seems to be money movement. I dunno. Let's get transfers in and then if it's still a fiasco, we'll have to reconsider. But as I keep saying, a Pirate game where you can whisk money and nobody ever, ever sails with any cash (that's not in their immediate booty), is not very piratey.

Re: being engaged a lot when trading, this is indeed a bit of a problem. Maybe we need to dither down the engagement 'speed radius' (although that will cause problems the other way, too!)
[Jul 28, 2003 7:03:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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I forsee great thing for trade ships being engaged if they're brigs or higher, after you've implemented broadsides. This is the superninja version of me proclaiming to help in any way possible to lower the price of ship necessities.
As a matter of fact, small sloop trading just strikes me oddly anyway. I want profitable trade runs to have to be the bigger crews on bigger ships.


Also, is it possible to sail/nav a ship so well it's literally uncatchable? If it were that'd create a demand in trade crews for excellent and better sailors. Not that I suggest this, I'm more thinking out loud.
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[Jul 28, 2003 7:17:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Soma



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I'm one of those crewmates mentioned, so I thought it best that I get a word or two in as well. It'll be my typical sprawling ramble, so please bare with me. Easily our biggest issues right now are rum and shot, rum being so in several ways. I've adjusted to using cannons less in battle because of the shortage in iron and subsequent dramatic price hike, but this then forces the sea battles to last much longer if you wish to lay any damage down on an enemy. Jack can attest to my skill in laying on the damage through rocks alone, and I'll claim to be one of the best at this method... Where I'm going with this (I just woke up, yes I know it's afternoon *smiles weakly*); If you wish to pillage with some junior pirates, you're going to have to get damage in no matter the relative strength of the enemy vessel. Green's aren't a given with new players, which is to be expected, but the time involved now to make them likely wins burns a giant hole in the pocket of whoever is providing rum. Rum consumption is simply too fast as it stands, with our without other factors making it a pain. In the past, it wasn't unusual that I'd cut my share and even throw in the hold on the last split, especially if things were slower or less succesful than I wished. I don't like sending new players out with meager earnings, even if I'm largely working on training them. With the price of rum and shot now, I simply cannot do that, at least not for long (or else I find my bank account running a negative soon enough).

On the trading end, I've tried taking this up now and then simply because the player demand for commodities is so high. If the influx of players were to taper off, this would settle down to the basic needs (wood,iron,cane,hemp) for the most part; However, I don't want that to happen for the sake of the dev team, every new player is a chance at making bank eventually. It seems as if the colonization rush has settled, yet now we deal with shortages in every other department while still having issues with wood,iron and hemp. I would like to see most (I cannot say all, there are some real ....'s running around now) of the new players able to earn their poe and spend it to outfit themselves with whatever they wished. Ignoring the issue of poe alltogether, they're still left unable to buy these things because of the lack of people willing to trade and commodities for those that do try and do so. Beyond that, the laborer issue rises up. Basically, on the economic side of things, we're being saddled with too many issues and changes all at once. I understand their parts in the grand scheme of things, but some are too early and some aren't being dealt with propperly (please take no offence, I know the hard work you're all putting into making things run smoothly, and it's greatly appreciated).

I'm not even going to try and cover suggestions for pvp in this area, I think we need to deal with what we have and formerly 'worked' before we try to tack on incentives to this or that style of play. All I can offer are likely quick fixes, but they would at least allow us to stabilize. One of the few things that the last testing game I played of this overall nature (having a vast economic landscape, though dependant on monster killing) did right was to increase the drop percentage in times of change, giving every player a better chance to break into the new dealings. Not directly applicable, but you'll see my suggestions border on the same idea.

Pillage: Increased winnings, pretty simple there. With the comodity prices now, it is now near improbable that a captain or fund provider will be able to come out remotely ahead on a smaller (player count) ship. Proportionally, if the winnings were to be hiked, it would then seem nescesary to cut down or re-adjust the bonus applied to extra hands. Why should I make 500poe with 4 players and then make 700 with 5 off of the same ship? (rough factoring, but there are some dramatic jumps here and there).

Rum: If we were to forego the league consumption, 3 minutes just doesn't cut it. I could see anywhere from 5-10 minutes being a viable 'bottoms up!' time.
Shot: This is directly a commodity issue, nothing more. Adressed below.

Commodities and Trading: Overall, I'm hoping that these are adjustable through database work and not something harder to code in, my vantage point on all things code related are a little weak. There is a variety of ways to 'help' this scene, so I'll lay them out in a little more debth than the previous thoughts.

Increased output/carrying ability: With the accepted risk and expense of obtaining commodities, it is so entirely hit and miss that you actually obtain enough to profit from (of whatever you're after) that I am absolutely certain the majority of players have been turned off from doing anything to help the situation. The easiest fix I can see on this front would be to double (or triple, or.. on and on, I can't predict) the market outputs and increase the hold capacity of all vessels. This would leave an element of luck in trading, but it would seem to be the easiest to quickly instate and test.

Market 'net': While we play a nautical game, I don't think it to be unreasonable to believe that the markets are 'in touch' with eachother. It would be lovely if you were able to visit one and see the available stock at all present markets, making trip planning efficient and likely to result in something. We've taken a few trips too often to far away islands with very meager results. This would reintroduce the idea of sea races to stock up on precious cargoes; at the moment, whether you hurry or not, it's all luck. You could argue it's timing, but having no system in place to check things, it sure feels like luck.

Market contracts or orders: This is a bit farther from the current state, and somewhat tied to the previous thought. If you were allowed to buy a contract (order, whatever) from a far away market to guarantee this or that, it would then make the pickup a given and something more easily fit into a trade AND pillage trip. We could entertain our crews the entire way there, putting a bonus on the profits, and then make haste to return home without any trouble, for the sake of losing a hefty bit of our stock.

That's all I've got at this point, though I do have a few last (and recent) thoughts to tack on to the majority. Markets are now quite obviously the most important piece of our economical system. While I appreciate the thought of instituting a majority of player control, we need systems in place as far as markets go. While this would slow down colonization, we simply cannot have one important commodity either being entirely gobbled up or ignored (production wise) by the population of the island which happens to live there. While it would stand to make sense that certain islands have this or that, while others had something else, it's just not economically feasible (or possible, for new players) to go jaunting all about just to track something down you wish to have. When we were limmited to this only being an issue from alpha to turtle, it's now spiralled close to out of control, being an issue for all no matter where you happen to be. We're not running things to a simple hub or offshoot island anymore, we're traversing the entire distance of the ocean to try and bring things home (not to mention elsewhere).
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Soma
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[Jul 28, 2003 7:22:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Cleaver, ye make excellent points. There are definitely TIMES when pillaging is fun, trading is fun, and shoppekeeping is fun. I HAVE had great pillage trips, I HAVE made the (very occasional lately) score in trading, or at least a reasonable profit, I HAVE enjoyed the shoppe management, including chatting with customers.

Unless things change, I'm not likely to want to run a shoppe again, since even in the beginning, it took more of my time than I really wanted to spend on it, and that's obviously something which will vary from person to person, and shoppe to shoppe. I would have (and did, I think...*smile*) said at the beginning that it was fun, if for no other reason than that it was a new thing to try, and very cool to try to figure out the economy. Trading was also fun for a long time, but lately has not been. I know ye're addressing this.

As far as pillage profits, I'll do some analysis and get back to ye with figures. No point arguing based on me feelings...*smile*.

One thing that WAS bizarre in me unprofitable pillage trip yesterday was being chased by this one brigand. The first time they got us, there were seven of them and five of us (two swabbies, me and an officer, and a junior Pirate). They hit the rocks, plus I got a shot into them, so they had four or five rows of damage. They completely thrashed us. A little while later they attacked us again, had no damage at all, and we completely thrashed them. Very odd, and it made victory seem like more of a random event than something under me control.
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[Jul 28, 2003 7:32:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
saynata

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muffy wrote: 
One thing that WAS bizarre in me unprofitable pillage trip yesterday was being chased by this one brigand. The first time they got us, there were seven of them and five of us (two swabbies, me and an officer, and a junior Pirate). They hit the rocks, plus I got a shot into them, so they had four or five rows of damage. They completely thrashed us. A little while later they attacked us again, had no damage at all, and we completely thrashed them. Very odd, and it made victory seem like more of a random event than something under me control.


Pieces do fall completely at random, Cap'n, so that suggestion's entirely possible.

I have to say that I agree with whoever said that the changes need to be done and integrated slowly, because things get really thrown out of whack.

Are there any ways that you can fathom that would make any of those things (sans shopkeeping, which is and will be a tad tiresome until I can hold an inventory *roll*) a bit more fun?
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[size=9] Saynata, Captain and Supreme So-and-So of The Sirens; Former Mistress of the ol' Sew 'n' Sew.
[Jul 28, 2003 7:51:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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i wont get into all this at too much detail, but im not entirely sure what yer pillaging problems are.

quick calculation: a small sloop with 5 people at average speed need what, 5 rum tops from alpha to turtle. thats about 250 poe. 2 battles on that trip are surely easy to get (unless the brigands hide again). if ye win them both, ye will have a booty of about 1500 poe, not counting eventual rare commodities (ye still can get krakens blood while sailing a sloop.. with about 8-9 pirates aboard, most of the brigs seem green). that leaves 1250/5 or 250 poe per nose net profit. where is the problem here?
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
[Jul 28, 2003 8:07:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
saynata

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garf wrote: 
i wont get into all this at too much detail, but im not entirely sure what yer pillaging problems are.

quick calculation: a small sloop with 5 people at average speed need what, 5 rum tops from alpha to turtle. thats about 250 poe. 2 battles on that trip are surely easy to get (unless the brigands hide again). if ye win them both, ye will have a booty of about 1500 poe, not counting eventual rare commodities (ye still can get krakens blood while sailing a sloop.. with about 8-9 pirates aboard, most of the brigs seem green). that leaves 1250/5 or 250 poe per nose net profit. where is the problem here?



I highly doubt that you're going to make 1500 with 5 pirates in two hits, unless you're going to hit brigs with your five. I'm also not so sure about your rum-swilling numbers, esp. because if you hit enough ships to make 1500, you're going to be going up and down in speed. (Night before last, I hit three ships with myself and my swabbies-150, 100, and -150) for a very slim margin of +100, which didn't cover my 3 rum.
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[size=9] Saynata, Captain and Supreme So-and-So of The Sirens; Former Mistress of the ol' Sew 'n' Sew.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by saynata at Jul 28, 2003 8:16:12 AM]
[Jul 28, 2003 8:16:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Snide comments from people who assert that those of us who do not play this game for the PvP are a) evil moneygrubbing elitists b) whiners c) just plain lame and wrong: not fun.
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[Jul 28, 2003 8:26:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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muffy wrote: 
Snide comments from people who assert that those of us who do not play this game for the PvP are a) evil moneygrubbing elitists b) whiners c) just plain lame and wrong: not fun.


People who do play this game for PVP are a) evil moneygrubbing elitists.

I can't speak for the other two, but I bet ye all think I fit b) too.
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Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
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[Jul 28, 2003 8:32:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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A pirate game whar non-piratey folks rule the day: not fun.
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[Jul 28, 2003 8:32:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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I tend to agree with Penn on this issue - allthough Cleavers more refined and thoughtful take on PvP is more up my alley.
In a game by this name the number one priority must be having a lot of grand puzzling games in place - the second must be piracy.
In both case I'd rather play against real people than the computer.

Regarding Rifkinds list:
pillaging
Fun enough, but I went into the shopkeeping business because i was becoming bored with attacking brigands. I still join my crew occasionally on a trip though.
I agree that prices on rum and shots should go down, but believe the simultaneous colonization efforts added to the great influx of players is what causes this. It's temporary.
When pillaging solo (that is, trying to trade, but being intercepted) I win more than I loose, so I'm ahead (with expensive rum and shots subtracted)

Running a shop
Great fun.
It could be more complex and more fun. I'd like some of the additions suggested in other threads (and I'm looking forward to when the shipyard is finished with customization). But bottomline is - the most fun I've had in YPP so far.
Right now my shoppe is working on a merchant galleon (600wood, 225iron, 325brown cloth) for Mad Mutineers newbie training. I've built two war brigs and a lot of sloops, since I started. So I can only say: Shortage? Schmortage!
nah, I know the grandfathering Cleaver is doing has a lot to do with this, but since he's adding commodities to the markets and not shoppes, this should help others than me. My prices are good and a lot of traders are making money from my shop. And so am I.
I make more money because I'm active in getting commodities for my own shop (cytting out the middle man) - but I'd still be making money if i did nothing but monitoring prices... but much slower.
I'm sure once we find a natural level of new players entering, hit the proper commodity production level for islands and don't try to quadruple the number of colonized islands overnight, running a shop will be fun and challenging again (or in my case - even more).

trading
It's ok. Needs some changes, but fun.
Too much camping involved. Auto-camping will level the playingfield and remove the advantage players with no life have. It still favours rich crews too much, though. Maybe the addition of several more archiplagos will give more small crews the chance of hitting the jackpot.
But a lot of tweaking is needed still.
I am however making so much just running between three islands at quite regular times, that I'm worried penn finds out - having to hire bodyguards would make my ships a bit more expensive.


Conclusion:
YPP is getting more fun after every release.
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Penndalla

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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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What's that Hanzii, eh? I will provide ye body guards! Har. Which three islands?
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[Jul 28, 2003 9:16:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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Penndalla wrote: 
A pirate game whar non-piratey folks rule the day: not fun.


The FAQ wrote: 
Q. What are your high-level design goals?

A few of our design goals in creating Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates are:

  • ]Fun over realism.
  • ]Usability over technology.
  • ]Bring the player into strong social and political groups quickly and elegantly.
  • ]Provide a rich set of rules for interacting with the environment and other players.
  • ]Support high-level player politics to generate gameplay and competition at all levels.
  • ]Encourage different play styles, don?t require a substantial time commitment.
  • ]Simplify, abstract, simplify. Simmer. Add secret spices.[/list:u:a0033f7449]We're applying these in the context of our Puzzling endeavours and the general patterns of massively multi-player design.


Thus, I figure merchants and privateers have just as much 'say' as pirates do. Thanks for the thought, though.
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'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 28, 2003 9:23:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Aye, Hanzii, as a shipwright, every commodity ye need is available in yer local archipelago, in the necessary quantities, at least when stimulated a bit. Ye might try trading to fully supply a tailor/weaver/apothecary to find out where these reputed shortages are.

I'd love to see a reference from somewhere that states that pirates were primarily (or only) PvPers. Everything I've ever read about them suggests that they attacked nice fat merchant ships (or gold galleons) the vast majority of the time, not each other.

Merriam-Webster says:

Pirate: one who practices piracy
Piracy: an act of robbery on the high seas

This is my understanding of what a pirate is. Since all sea battle involves robbery of the defeated ship, I don't see that attacking any particular type of ship is more acting like a pirate than attacking any other type.

Me Sea Battle experience hit Illustrious the other day, so I submit that I've done a great deal more piracy than most of the people in this game. On land, I tend to like to help people out. This does not appear to me to be excluded by any definition of piracy I've seen.
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[Jul 28, 2003 9:26:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Har. And would a disclaimer suggesting robots and Smurfs change what ye expect from the name Puzzle Pirates? There really is no PvP to count fer much. Thanks fer the quote, Ely.

We shall see. This beat around the bush and don't make folks cry routine won't fly fer a popular MMOG, me thinks. But I can be wrong, and I can find other games to play.

I jest fear that all the whinin' shall leave flag wars an opt-out event that has no real consequences if ye opt-in. Don't say it can't happen. It already did in ship to ship.
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[Jul 28, 2003 9:26:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
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Re: PvP, game design, and what's fun Reply to this Post
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Okay, this is getting silly. Regardless of what pirates did, we would like PVP to be viable. We would also like trading to be viable.
Separate from the beating the economy has taken from sudden, simultaneous expansions of all kinds, both had good and bad points.
Making both of their good points outweigh their bad has proven to be our most challenging task by far, as most of the contributors to this thread certainly know.
Rather than argue whether or not one should be involved in the game (it will), let's try to see what can do to make both of them more fun.

In fact, there's a thread on just that right over here...

-Nemo
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[Jul 28, 2003 9:38:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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I agree with Soma, let's not get into the whole PvP debate *here* as well, let alone bicker about it. Certainly we need to get the game's fun factor sorted out aside from PvP, merchants and Pirates otherwise. I do think that's it's Piratey to accept the challenge of well-matched sea battle, but I don't really see any shortage of that.

So, back to topic please and no flaming.

Trading we are indeed going to fix, more details on this soon. Pillaging and rum consumption numbers are easily changed but I would like to see the commodity supply stabilise before too many conclusions are drawn. We are taking steps to drastically increase the supply of commodities in the next release, for now I continue to put in enough to bring it to consumption levels by hand.
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Hanzii



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Ok, I'm not in support of PvP over PvE (Or should that be PvNPP?) in this game.
And I certainly think merchant and trading have a place in this game - considering the majority of my posts have been about that, it would be weird if i didn't.
I just hear the cries of 'nerf PvP' before we even get to try any...

'Encourage different playstyles' should include PvP as well.

While the entire politics flag/crew part of the game offers me no recourse against the annoying yellowbellied brigands lying in wait everytime I try to bring some iron back to the 'ole shipyard, it could help me against players trying the same.

I don't want to see a pure PvP game, i don't want an environment where ganking is frequent - but right now i'm being repeatedly ganked by the computer. I'd rather test my skill against humans.

---------
And Rifkind, you're right that my commodities are easier to get hold of - on the other hand I need much larger amounts, so I face other challenges.
And nobody said a tailor should be fully supplied at all times - I'm yet to build up enough to even offer to build a Grand Frigate.
If ye run out of black captains jackets all the time, you might consider raising the price - some stuff is supposed to be rare.

But foraging and pillaging rare stuff need a bit of tweaking as does the rest of the economy. But I think there's a long way from that to 'it's not fun'.
I'm having so much fun, I considered plonking down the 80k for yer shop - but my wife wouldn't approve of me running yet another virtuel piratey business ;-)
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Hanzii



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arrr!

Both Nemo and Cleaver stealth-posted while I was typing.
So I might look stupid, both I'm just a slow two-fingered typer...
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 28, 2003 9:48:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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huh? Reply to this Post
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Hanzii wrote: 
I just hear the cries of 'nerf PvP' before we even get to try any...


From where, exactly? The fact that I personally am not strongly interested in PvP has never meant that I think it should be discouraged in any way. In fact, I've had a great deal of fun with it at times meself, I just don't seek it out because it's not me personal preference. Nor have I ever advocated discouraging or removing it, nor have I seen anyone else advocating this. My only concern is that options for non-PvPers are being made much more difficult; I feel that non-PvP play is being discouraged (and also derided).
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garf



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on topic:

these numbers dont come out of nowhere. i honestly make profit (if i count the crew cut part that goes to the crew funds, a very significiant profit) 90+% of the times i take a small sloop out, thats with rum costs included. i dont bother to buy cannon shots because of their price. everyone on the trip makes a profit, and its usually around 100-150 poe per trip - surely more ye could gain at the navy.

and thats including a fair mix of newbies with not-so newbies. check what lubbers are on at afternoon american time, thats the people on the boats. i never use swabbies to pillage, though. now ye, rifkind, obviously have a lot more experience on sea battles, and same goes fer most of yer crew. so i dont really understand where yer problem is there.

feel free to give me a tell to join a trip on occasion, or invite me to one of yours.

my stance on the pvp thing, kept short: im a die-hard pvp fan. that said, no game with full pvp ever worked so far. then again, all of those allowed mass ganking, had 1on1 pvp and most importantly levels and equipment. im really looking forward to full-scale flag wars in this game. it would scare me off if it became care-bear, but imo the devs stated often and clearly enough that thats not going to happen on the seas. ganking is already prevented by the black ship, so me expectations are very high fer the future.
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- Randal

[size=9]also Garf, Silvain and a few others
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