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Shuranthae

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Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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I think the puzzles should be much harder than they currently are (or at least score much stricter). Maybe the lower and middle areas of the curve are fine, but the upper end doesn't seem steep enough to me. There seems to be way too many players capable of Incredibles and Ultimates so much so that doing Incredibly or having an Ultimate really isn't viewed as much of an accomplishment nowadays. The highest achievement in both puzzle output (duty report) and standing should be staggeringly difficult to attain. The rank of "Ultimate" should be something only a very few can get and that's just not the case right now.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:25:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Maybe you've just gotten too good for the game?
(I'm serious.)
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[Jul 27, 2004 2:26:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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IIRC, the scales for both ratings (duty report and ranking) are automatically adjusted by the performance of the population. If that's the case, the same percentage of people should be Ultimate now as they ever were, and likewise for Incredibles.

Maybe you need to stop hanging out with the cream of the crop. :P

atteSmythe,
whose gunnery has mysteriously dropped from Incredible to Excellent over the last week
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

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Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Bah. Well there needs to be more ways to cooperatively compete and duty puzzling comes to mind first. The Top Ten Boards now are worthless as they tend to scale more toward people who have the time, so I'd like to see skill recognized again.

Maybe I should be asking for a new Rating and Duty Report Score? Would it be terribly bad of me to ask for something above Ultimate and Incredible that's practical near impossible to get so much so that only a handful can pull it off, and them only occasionally? It just really irritates me that the best you can do caps off so early.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:33:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Shuranthae wrote: 
Maybe I should be asking for a new Rating and Duty Report Score? Would it be terribly bad of me to ask for something above Ultimate and Incredible that's practical near impossible to get so much so that only a handful can pull it off, and them only occasionally? It just really irritates me that the best you can do caps off so early.

Duty reports are still ranked by score though, aye? So even if you're all Incredible!, the mate at the top of the list is the highest score.

At least, it's the only explanation I've had for how that list is ordered, and it makes sense...

atteSmythe,
still the quentissential naysayer
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homullus

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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atteSmythe wrote: 
IIRC, the scales for both ratings (duty report and ranking) are automatically adjusted by the performance of the population. If that's the case, the same percentage of people should be Ultimate now as they ever were, and likewise for Incredibles.


That may well be. If the percentage is the same, though, that means the number of Ultimates in the ocean is steadily climbing, reinforcing Shur's point.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:39:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
VPeric

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Well, since there are 8 ratings, Ultimate represents the top 1/8th of people in the whole Ocean. Since there's a _lot_ of greenies here now, and they aren't very good at the puzzles, they quickly 'populate' the lower ratings so even people who would have been barely Grand-Master or something in Azure, are easily Ultimates now. Thats the explanation. For a solution, ask someone else :D
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Wlada, Former King of Bloody Hell and former Captain of Sudden Death, Cobalt.
Vlada, Officer of the Rudder Royals, Azure.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:41:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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VPeric wrote: 
Well, since there are 8 ratings, Ultimate represents the top 1/8th of people in the whole Ocean. Since there's a _lot_ of greenies here now, and they aren't very good at the puzzles, they quickly 'populate' the lower ratings so even people who would have been barely Grand-Master or something in Azure, are easily Ultimates now. Thats the explanation. For a solution, ask someone else :D


I don't think the ratings break up into even eighths. The rest is true; also, see my post above.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:44:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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atteSmythe wrote: 
Duty reports are still ranked by score though, aye? So even if you're all Incredible!, the mate at the top of the list is the highest score.

At least, it's the only explanation I've had for how that list is ordered, and it makes sense...

atteSmythe,
still the quentissential naysayer

I can't really claim to know for a fact, but here's my theory:

A low sparkly icon is the exact same as a high sparkly icon with one exception. If you have a low sparkly, you're close to losing it. Otherwise, a low sparkly icon provides the same work and affects the ship the same way as a high sparkly icon. The reason the Duty Reports have people in higher and lower positions is because often times two people don't have sparkly icons for the same amount of time over played. You can get an Incredible by having a sparkly icon for 59 seconds and a gold for one second, and while there is pretty much zero difference in performance and rating to someone who has a sparkly for the full minute you'll be at a lower spot on the Duty Report. Such goes my theory.

Anyway, my point being that there should be something way way way up there. Let's take sailing for example. One can easily get an Incredible by either doing efficient triples or extravagent Vegas. Nothing about the Incredible or subIncred ratings should change, you can still Incred with triples, but there should be a standard that is much higher, near impossible... like in order to get it, you'd have to Double Vegas, and even then it only lasts for a minute. Something like that that people would have to really work for.

VPeric wrote: 
they quickly 'populate' the lower ratings so even people who would have been barely Grand-Master or something in Azure, are easily Ultimates now.

On the contrary, it works in the opposite direction. Old timers should remember when the Carpentry and Duty Navigation puzzles scored so incredibly easy.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Shuranthae at Jul 27, 2004 2:46:31 AM]
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jasandrea

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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I don't think it's a straight 1/8 split. I expect it's rather more of a curve. I'm reasonably certain that ultimates are not 1/8 of the ocean. 1/20th maybe, but not 1/8th.
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Ruby Arch: Where the brigands are Ultimate and the players used to be.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:46:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    jacquilynne [Link]  Go to top 
VPeric

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Shuranthae wrote: 
On the contrary, it works in the opposite direction. Old timers should remember when the Carpentry and Duty Navigation puzzles scored so incredibly easy.


OK, I'm not _that_ old. /me grins

homullus wrote: 
I don't think the ratings break up into even eighths. The rest is true; also, see my post above.


jasandrea wrote: 
I don't think it's a straight 1/8 split. I expect it's rather more of a curve. I'm reasonably certain that ultimates are not 1/8 of the ocean. 1/20th maybe, but not 1/8th.


Oh well, I guess I was wrong. I always believed it was like I said.
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Wlada, Former King of Bloody Hell and former Captain of Sudden Death, Cobalt.
Vlada, Officer of the Rudder Royals, Azure.
[Jul 27, 2004 2:54:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Shuranthae wrote: 
I can't really claim to know for a fact, but here's my theory:

A low sparkly icon is the exact same as a high sparkly icon with one exception. If you have a low sparkly, you're close to losing it. Otherwise, a low sparkly icon provides the same work and affects the ship the same way as a high sparkly icon. The reason the Duty Reports have people in higher and lower positions is because often times two people don't have sparkly icons for the same amount of time over played. You can get an Incredible by having a sparkly icon for 59 seconds and a gold for one second, and while there is pretty much zero difference in performance and rating to someone who has a sparkly for the full minute you'll be at a lower spot on the Duty Report. Such goes my theory.

Ah! My theory, which I also cannot verify as fact:

Everything that you post above is exactly true, regarding that the different duty report ratings affect the ship in the same way, regardless of whether you're 'high' incredible or 'low' incredible. But I've always believed that the duty report reflects whether it is, indeed, High or Low.

For example, my flagmates have little sailing contests all the time. They'll be at solid sparklies for leagues and leagues, but their order changes on the report.

Actually, that'd be a good test - set yourself up to be sparkly for a league without doing anything, then have a mate who's also sparkly, but is puzzling his booty off. Each league, switch off who is puzzling and who's relying on his Massive Score [size=9]TM to keep the sparkles up. If you're right, the order on the duty report should be static. If I'm right, the mate puzzling will be higher on the list than the mate idling. If you're right, the list should be static between leagues.

atteSmythe,
who could also just be completely off his gourd
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Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Hehe. Back before the last patch I used to Sail by getting a Vegas, setting up my next Vegas, then go afk for roughly two minutes (about how long it takes to microwave some snack) before setting it off. I always had Increds and almost always was on top, despite the fact that I was afk nearly half the time.

It always made me giggle whenever someone beat me at Sailing and they felt so smug about it.
[Jul 27, 2004 3:12:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
trick44



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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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You're right Atte, he just wants the person who's doing considerably better to help the ship more. He wants there to be a difference in the output of "high incredible" and "low incredible".

 
Vperic wrote: 

they quickly 'populate' the lower ratings so even people who would have been barely Grand-Master or something in Azure, are easily Ultimates now.


On the contrary, it works in the opposite direction. Old timers should remember when the Carpentry and Duty Navigation puzzles scored so incredibly easy.


Actually, Mr Shur, that's because people are getting better at the puzzles. VPeric's point still stands, the more people in the ocean (oodles of inexperienced greenies are a fine example) the more room in the upper echelon of standings. So he's right that if you were say top 50%ile (and thus say, G-M) with 1000 people, and you increase that to 3000 people you're top 16.6%ile now (closer to ultimate). This assumes you stay in the same %ile as you were before, which hasn't happened since all those "newbies" finally learned how to play as well. Surprise!


And Shur, if you want a better way to compete, isn't the obvious answer one of the puzzles in which you directly compete? You do one of them pretty well, what about the others? You're dealing with fundamentally single player puzzles. The only way to compete is to do as well as you can as consistently as you can. This happens, it just leads to the top10 being full of people who can sail navy for 2 hours.
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[Jul 27, 2004 3:18:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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I may be wrong, but what I think Shur is trying to say is he wants the Ruby standard applied to us all. If so, I agree - to some degree at least.

Those of us who are puzzlers like to see how well we puzzle.

Those of us who are competitive like to see how we compare with the rest.

Those of us who are interested in game design would like to know how things work.

And even those of us who simply want to do well at sea want some of these things.

The current system, while not a bad design, isn't perfect. It could be better. Various 'solutions' have been proposed. I certainly agree that more transparency - especially for the top players - would be nice. I can also understand the viewpoint that it would not be nice.

If I were making the divisions now, with the benefit of hindsight, but the same system, I'd have the top 5 ranks being the top 1/5/10/25/50 percent, and the bottom 3 be split 70/90/100 (same count). So to get off the bottom rank you need to get out of the bottom 10% (100-90) etc. It is very hard to tell if the actual system used is anything close to that, because the people we see around all the time are by definition those with more experience and thus also more practice and skill.

I personally found it trivial to become Ultimate in sailing (I've been in the ocean top 10 and was in the Ruby top 10 when I moved there a day), quite easy to Ultimate bilge (but admittedly, I was legendary without knowing how to), and relatively hard to get ultimate carpentry - until I was aware of the actual odds of pieces appearing. I'm leaving the other puzzles as future targets, but I do consider it possible for almost anybody to learn a specific puzzle to ultimate level, with help from tutorials etc. I agree it just isn't that hard - nor should it be any harder.

One thing it is interesting to note is that navigation is clearly not split in to eights. Unlike the other duty puzzles (I'm deliberately ignoring gunnery, which doesn't have shiny gun symbols etc), it is only practiced by a minority. Yet it is hard to do well at.

Anyway, I'm of the school that believes information is good. I understand the fear that the puzzles will be overanalyzed, in a way. But in duplicate bridge, knowing the rules we are playing to doesn't do any harm. We don't know how well others will do, with the same information, and we measure ourselves against them.

So, anybody for a hand of bridge?

Dylan
[Jul 27, 2004 3:20:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Telastyn



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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Doing incredibles and being ultimate is still an accomplishment to greenies, and I still hear the "woot!" when a mate gets an ultimate in something they were previously less good at.



*shrug* I think it's nice that people can attain the "best" and then not worry about it day and night.
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trick44



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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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That argument holds as much water as a pregnant lady. ;P

Seriously though, by that once you get ultimate, then 'not worrying' = 'not caring about puzzles'. There should be challenges available to every level.

Oh and: Your woes are not only your own, Sir Shur
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-TK
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by trick44 at Jul 27, 2004 3:27:09 AM]
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Telastyn



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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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trick44 wrote: 
That argument holds as much water as a pregnant lady. ;P



Seriously though, by that once you get ultimate, then 'not worrying' = 'not caring about puzzles'. There should be challenges available to every level.




Not an argument as much as stating a perception. I enjoy not caring about the puzzles and just playing them.



Personally, I hate challenge. :]
[Jul 27, 2004 3:30:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pokeytax

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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I too would be intrigued by a "U SAILIN': FEVER." Not that I would expect to be firing them off, but I'd love for there to be a rating that made me ooh and aah when someone aboard pulled it off. Maybe give it to the ocean's top sailor/carper/bilger during a given minute or something? That's probably a pain for programming reasons but a very high score cutoff would be fine too.

Secretly I would like this rating to knock a discrete chunk off damage or bilge or add two tokens at the duty report, so that someone aboard a ship in a blockade could feel they and not just the nav were contributing, but I understand you folks worry needlessly about things like "game balance."
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[Jul 27, 2004 3:30:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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It's not so much that I want a difference between a high incred and low incred as I want there to be another level of performance (okay, I guess you could say I do want a difference in high incred then). I want it to really be near impossible to get, so much so that for even the best puzzlers in the game to even see it once in an hour is an accomplishment. I mean, face it. People see Incredibles nowadays and they're like "Oh you're pretty good." That's it?! There should be a level of performance worthy of much jaw dropping, and right now there isn't.

trick44 wrote: 
Seriously though, by that once you get ultimate, then 'not worrying' = 'not caring about puzzles'. There should be challenges available to every level.

Oh and: Your woes are not only your own, Sir Shur


Yeah. Sorry, I would have added to that thread but this thread was originally about something different and I forgot about it when I decided to change what I wanted.

Also of note, I'm not just talking about the Ratings. In fact, I care less about the Ultimate Rating, it's the Incredible Level that I want something to surpass.

Pokey wrote: 
but I understand you folks worry needlessly about things like "game balance."

That's why I want it super hard neigh impossible to get. That way, for even people who can pull it off it's rare to do so and thus worthy of the bonus. And since it doesn't happen all that often or that many times, a bonus isn't such a huge deal.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Shuranthae at Jul 27, 2004 3:31:53 AM]
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Gotagota

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Pokeytax wrote: 
I too would be intrigued by a "U SAILIN': FEVER."

Wouldn't ye need to freestyle fer that?
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add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Jul 27, 2004 3:38:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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WARNING!

SHURANTHAE'S EGO IS NOT GETTING ENOUGH STROKING!

RINGERS, PLEASE FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY!

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[Jul 27, 2004 3:42:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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cmdrzoom wrote: 
WARNING!

SHURANTHAE'S EGO IS NOT GETTING ENOUGH STROKING!

RINGERS, PLEASE FIX THIS IMMEDIATELY!


This thread isn't big enough to handle that topic, please start a new one.
[Jul 27, 2004 3:43:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



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If you don't think ultimate is good enough, that's what the top 10 lists are for.
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[Jul 27, 2004 3:50:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Quizzical wrote: 
If you don't think ultimate is good enough, that's what the top 10 lists are for.


Good lord do you even bother reading my posts anymore?
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dracai



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Shuranthae wrote: 
It's not so much that I want a difference between a high incred and low incred as I want there to be another level of performance (okay, I guess you could say I do want a difference in high incred then). I want it to really be near impossible to get, so much so that for even the best puzzlers in the game to even see it once in an hour is an accomplishment. I mean, face it. People see Incredibles nowadays and they're like "Oh you're pretty good." That's it?! There should be a level of performance worthy of much jaw dropping, and right now there isn't.

trick44 wrote: 
Seriously though, by that once you get ultimate, then 'not worrying' = 'not caring about puzzles'. There should be challenges available to every level.

Oh and: Your woes are not only your own, Sir Shur


Yeah. Sorry, I would have added to that thread but this thread was originally about something different and I forgot about it when I decided to change what I wanted.

Also of note, I'm not just talking about the Ratings. In fact, I care less about the Ultimate Rating, it's the Incredible Level that I want something to surpass.

Pokey wrote: 
but I understand you folks worry needlessly about things like "game balance."

That's why I want it super hard neigh impossible to get. That way, for even people who can pull it off it's rare to do so and thus worthy of the bonus. And since it doesn't happen all that often or that many times, a bonus isn't such a huge deal.



Well the way I see this is, if you add something higher people will find a way to get it most of the time. With such a bonus the elite people will make the normal people feel even farther behind. Take distilling for example, the best you can do is 12 cc. Many people can do that now a days. But if you made 13 (or even 14) avalable and made it provide double labor or some such then people would get that good to do it normally. Heck from what I hear some people can do 13 normally, and even I have been able to do a 14. All things take is practice. Plus even with out the bonus people have done 13 cc to show off. I would rather things just stay as they are. Compete on the top 10 if you wish, yes simply doing the puzzle more puts you higher, but it should also make you better at the game so it makes sense.
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Dracai
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[Jul 27, 2004 3:52:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Distilling is quite different because of the lack of time restraint. But when I say impossibly difficult, I mean it. I used Sailing as an example, in order to get Incred you only need to do Triples (and you can continually do this and maintain it) but to get the next level, you don't just need Bingos or Donkeys but Vegas or maybe even Vegas+ and even then it doesn't last for very long. If you want a Distilling Equivalent, it's that you only need a CC^8 to get Incred and to go to the next level, you need a CC^16 or CC^18.

Yeah, I'd love to see how many people can pull off a CC^16.

On further consideration, a Sailing standard would require a lot more than a Vegas. Maybe a Vegas +3 that cleared all the Platforms would do it. Perhaps you people don't understand what I'm getting at when I say neigh impossibly hard?
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DrunknBfly

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Whenever I quad-Vegas, I announce it to the ship to show off. Everybody oohs and ahhs. Unless I'm sailing solo, in which case I poke at the unresponsive swabbies and cry in loneliness.

I s'pose I never thought of wanting a super special rating because announcing stuff, like how some say 'Booooooooom' when they make a great break in swordfighting seems to work well. And there'd be no way to give the rating to top swordfighters, would there?

So if it's nigh-on impossibly hard, are we talking the top 1/20%? I'm just wondering if there are enough super super insane puzzlers out there to warrant this feature?
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Pierut of Crimson Tide, formerly Looterati, not dead.
 
Shinrai tells you, "zomg u r an om i meen loot"

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by DrunknBfly at Jul 27, 2004 4:07:30 AM]
[Jul 27, 2004 4:07:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://magiccheese.pyen.com/    Ravenlarke [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Joined: Jul 25, 2003
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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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Okay, seriously this time:

Why should the Ringers spend precious time and resources on something that will benefit only a tiny "elite" segment of the playerbase?
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Jul 27, 2004 4:07:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: Ultimate not so Ultimate, Incredible not so Incredible Reply to this Post
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For fun and to actually reward exceptional skill when properly performed?

Everytime I see the "precious time and resource" argument I want to gag.
[Jul 27, 2004 4:09:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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