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scumhunter



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Making a tutorial Reply to this Post
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I am working up a Sea Battle tutorial for my flag and someone raised a question that I need answer before I can proceed futher.

In Sea Battle do sail token generation, carpentry work and bilge rely on the combined value of all crew in each of those positions or do they rely on the average value of all crew in those positions.

example:

I have two excellents on sails. Would it be better or worse to have a good join with them?

A previous topic I searched seemed to indicate it would be better but a later post indicated it would be worse.
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[Apr 14, 2004 4:44:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chia.net/scumhunter/ [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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One Incredible carpenter cannot keep the damage down on a merchant galleon, but several can. Therefore, it cannot be average.

atteSmythe,
who's always assumed it was just a total
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
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[Apr 14, 2004 4:46:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
bokodasu



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atteSmythe wrote: 
One Incredible carpenter cannot keep the damage down on a merchant galleon, but several can. Therefore, it cannot be average.

atteSmythe,
who's always assumed it was just a total


It's not just a total, though.

In this post,

Nemo wrote: 
The more people you add to a puzzle the less of a positive effect the addition will have. A load of mediocre carpenters will only be slightly better than two mediocre carpenters.

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[size=9]Tomyris, Cult of the Red Mantis, Looterati
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[Apr 14, 2004 4:51:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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Consider it this way:

The amount of total effect you can have on the vessel is first determined by the number of players you have. You get less additional effect for each additional player.

Then the rating determines what percentage of that possible effect is contributed. I would imagine each player contributes an equal amount of the total effect, despite each additional player only adding a small bit to the amount of total effect available for the vessel.

I have a feeling this would be easier to explain with pictures...
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Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Apr 14, 2004 8:45:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
scumhunter



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So in my example would it be better or worse?
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Me Vs. Thor, or No **** there I was.
[Apr 14, 2004 10:31:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chia.net/scumhunter/ [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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ALWAYS better. But... if you're an incredibly and you want to join them, you'd do MUCH better, as you'd effectively be being assigned the 'pole position,' which is the largest share of the total effect on the vessel.

In other words: Your rating is of primary concern to the effect on the vessel, AS LONG AS you have enough people. So to put it more simply:

2 incredibles at carp is better for reducing your damage than six goods.
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Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Apr 14, 2004 10:37:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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atteSmythe wrote: 
One Incredible carpenter cannot keep the damage down on a merchant galleon, but several can. Therefore, it cannot be average.

I've been thinking about this post quite a bit - it's possible that it is, indeed, just an average. If an unattended duty station contributes 0 to the average every time it's sampled, it might bear out what we've seen.

Of course, the reasons given for revamping a couple ship types (war brigs come to mind) don't really make sense, then.

atteSmythe,
still voting for 'complicated'
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[May 26, 2004 2:20:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
ramirojr



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atte, that doesn't always hold true. Think about ships where a few Ultimate carpenters can keep down damage but there are still numerous stations open. The open stations probably aren't adding a value of 0 to the average in that case, because a few people alone with many open stations are still keeping down damage.
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[May 26, 2004 2:25:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Still possible, though. Imagine all the stations are full, there are two great carpenters, and the rest are greenie boochers. Damage still goes down...

Truthfully, I could see either an average or a total working. Just wanted to correct my too-hasty assertion that it couldn't be an average.

atteSmythe,
always opinionated, but definitely not set in his ways
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Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
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[May 26, 2004 2:30:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
Daren



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An idea:

Highest Carp -> Contributes 50% of his points
2nd highest carp -> Contributes 30% of his points
3rd Highest -> 10%
4th -> 5%
5th and below -> 1%

As long as you have someone on point doing well, it doesn't matter if that person changes, and it doesn't matter if you have empties 1% of 0 is still 0.

-Daren
[Jun 4, 2004 1:28:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Quizzical



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It probably varies by ship. A sloop literally can't have three people on carp, but the third best at carp on a grand frigate ought to make a considerable difference.
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Dylan

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They probably Keep It Simple, er, Salties. Sticking to the KISS principle, that is.

Unfortunately, the best analogy I can think of is taxes... Below a certain level, you don't lose any, after that, you lose 1/2 (they probably only have two bands) - across the board, for each puzzle. Then you pay the basic costs - drag, damage, seepage, and whatever is left goes to speed, clearing damage, emptying bilge.

For example, if I randomly pick some numbers: Booched gives a score of 0, Incredible 5, and in a sloop the 'resistance' is equal to the number of stations (so actually, the range is effectively -1 to 4, if all stations are occupied).

That would mean that a single sailor would need to get 'Goods' to even start moving, whereas at the bilge and carp stations, a single worker would need 'Fines'.

I'm not saying that is exactly right, remember that this is more to illustrate the higher end... Now if instead every single station is averaging goods, there would be no penalty. Each station is producing 3 points and costing 1, so the remaining 6/4/4 go to acceleration (or tokens) and repairs and bilge.

But go a step or two further, averaging excellents or incredibles, and the totals wouldn't be 9/6/6 or 12/8/8, but (assuming 50% 'tax') 7.5/5/5 and 9/6/6 respectively.

Now a single ultimate carpenter in the sloop produces 5 points, the two stations cost 2, but isn't 'taxed' (unless perhaps producing a top 10 threatening 6.1+ on the scale).

Similarly, in the original example of two excellents on sails already: they produce 4 points each, the sloop has drag of 3, for a total of 5 accelerations points. Since this is again less than the average of all stations manned by 'good' sailors, no tax. But adding a third good sailor - while never making things 'worse' simply isn't going to add that much - the drag has already been paid for, and their first point helps fully, but half of points two and three are taxed, so 'effectively' the sailor is only fine (had there been no tax).

I apologize if my EXAMPLES (which I do not pretend are exactly how it works anyway) make this more confusing rather than less, but that is how I would do it. Remember computers are good at adding numbers and making small decisions. In pseudo-code:

stations = size(workers[])
points = sum(workers[])
expected = cGood * stations // cGood == 3
if points > expected then // tax 'em
points -= (points - expected) / 2 // 50% of excess
points -= stations // and account for normal costs
if Artemis in workers[] then
points *= 2 // Witchcraft!?


Of course the constant costs per ship, and perhaps even the expected 'average' may vary more than simply the number of stations - e.g. merchant vessels have fewer sails than they 'should', and thus cannot go as fast.

Dylan
[Jun 4, 2004 8:23:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottish

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Dylan wrote: 
They probably Keep It Simple, er, Salties. Sticking to the KISS principle, that is.

<snip a bunch of mumbo jumbo from the LONGEST post of the thread>


What happened to KISS? ;)
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Scottish
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[Jun 5, 2004 8:33:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    ragingcoffee    Ishington    78378034 [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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The way I BELIEVE it works is something like this:


O
O O
O O O
O O O O
O O O O O
O O O O O O
1 2 3 4 5 6
s n r t t t
t d d h h h


If you have six carpenters, they'll be assigned something like this, with the person assigned the most responsibility for effecting your ship ALWAYS the person coming in first. Then, each "pip" or whatever becomes more effective based upon their overall weighting.


O
O O
O O o
O O o o
O O o o o
O O o o o .
1 2 3 4 5 6
s n r t t t
t d d h h h


Ending up with something like this, if you imagine the "area" as the "amount of effect on the ship."
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Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Jun 5, 2004 1:28:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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I showed how the code for the 'tax' was all of 2 lines long. But it wouldn't have made much sense without explaining and giving some examples.

The funniest thing is I specifically said to not worry too much about the examples, but I guess that went out the window in your mental 'snip' also known as 'not reading'.

To restate in a simpler form:

Everything less than 100% of 'standard' is unaffected; after that, a 50% tax is paid.

For example, 60% stays 60%, but 160% performance is reduced to 130%.

Just to make it clear: the 30 in the last statements 130 is half the 60 in the 160...

If that isn't simple, I dont know what is.

Dylan
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Spansh



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I can't imagine why it would even be as complex as that, if I was coding it I'd do something along the lines of assigning a value to each stage from booched through to incredible. Lets say from 1 to 10.

That (much like skilled etc labour) totalled for the ship is how much labour there is available.

Now since we're talking about Carpentry I'll start with that, lets say a sloop has a maximum damage of 100. every $time_period the current score of your workers is added up and subtracted from the damage total (unless it is zero then it's just an easy no labour used).

Same with sailing, each sail token costs x work units, a sailor can produce x work units depending on his current standing, every $time_period your current work units available are added up and when you have enough for as sail token one is produced.

Similar idea with bilge.

For each $reward (be that a lower carp, lower bilge or a sail token), there is an associated cost (I would imagine with bilge and carp there's just an overall total maximum amount (lets say 100 for a sloop, maybe 2000 or more for a grand frigate) and each $time_period the current scorre of your workers is subtracted. You can put a $tax in there if you want, which is how much damage is done to the ship if nothing's happening to it, and also there'll be an equation something like the form

(damage+1)*leak_constant = total_bilge_per_turn

That seems a LOAD simpler than current solutions regarding responsability etc. An easy way to test this would be to have a max damaged grand frigate and 10 or so ultimate carpenters, see how long it takes them to clear the damage. Then take same damage and a range of people from ultimate down to newbie, if dylan is right, they should finish the damage in roughly the same time (give or take a bit), whereas I think they'd just nail it.
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