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Rengor



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Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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We the Mad Mutineers are now the proud owners of 4 ships, two small sloops, a large sloop and now a gorgeous brig (who bought that one?).

However when pillaging, I often find that a small sloop is sufficient with it's room for 7 pirates to take on even Brigs that has 8 onboard. That's a shame since you would then rarely take out the larger ships. Only if you have enough crewmembers online that you wont all fit on a small will you move over to the larger ones. But that's only happened a couple of times for me.

I think the difference of pirates between the 3 ships should be larger to make it worth moving to larger ships.

And also it would be nice if you could order an NPP to follow you from one ship to another.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jan 12, 2003 3:58:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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I'm hoping/assuming that ship size will play a larger part once commerce has been introduced. I would hope that a brig would, in return for being much slower to get going, have an edge in firepower and max cargo. I would like to see cannon hits from brigs do more damage in sea battles (or do they already? I haven't fired a shot from ours yet). Brigs should have more of everything, including inertia.

Some difference in crew max could perhaps be implemented, but since the whole deal with piracy is getting ahold of goods aboard the other ship, that usually entails not sinking it (at least initially), which in turn means boarding, which in turn means that a vicious crew of Scoundrels on a small Mutineer ship COULD take on a brig full of lily-livered louts.

Hey, when it's all-out war, will we be able to scuttle opponent's ships if we defeat them on the high seas? Not sure how I feel about that. I wouldn't want any casual crews' ships, or any NPP traders for that matter, sunk -- that takes away people's fun. Only flags at war. I'm not 100% sure. But the possibility of losing them might make wars a bigger deal. It's only money anyway . . .
[Jan 13, 2003 10:35:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 
I'm hoping/assuming that ship size will play a larger part once commerce has been introduced. I would hope that a brig would, in return for being much slower to get going, have an edge in firepower and max cargo. I would like to see cannon hits from brigs do more damage in sea battles (or do they already? I haven't fired a shot from ours yet). Brigs should have more of everything, including inertia.


Correctamundo. In particular cargo size will become quite important -- Small Sloops will carry very little of anything. Larger ships will also fit out with more and larger cannons, which could become quite handy.

 

... which in turn means that a vicious crew of Scoundrels on a small Mutineer ship COULD take on a brig full of lily-livered louts.


Aye, we'd like to retain this dynamic, too -- up to a point, anyway.

 

Hey, when it's all-out war, will we be able to scuttle opponent's ships if we defeat them on the high seas?


Yes, but that will preclude you from taking any of their booty; it'll be an either/or choice of (when Flags are at war) taking cargo, cash, cash/items from Pirates (quite restricted), and sinking the vessel. I also think that you'll have to actually cannon it down to 100% damage without a boarding event, which is going to be hard (the other side might ram you once they worked out what was going on). I expect that in most cases the attackers will take the easier and more lucrative option.

 

Not sure how I feel about that. I wouldn't want any casual crews' ships, or any NPP traders for that matter, sunk -- that takes away people's fun. Only flags at war. I'm not 100% sure. But the possibility of losing them might make wars a bigger deal. It's only money anyway . . .


Definitely only at War. It remains to be seen how common War is and how often casual crews get dragged in. Remember that the pirates on board simply get washed up at home island, perhaps missing a leg, or an eye. These prized injuries from the odd sunken warship will indeed serve to fan the flames of conflict.

- Cleaver
[Jan 14, 2003 2:48:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
ratdog23



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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I agree that it should be possible, though extremely difficult, to sink a vessel. It will be difficult simply by virtue that the defending vessel, once it has sustained some damage, can realize their plight and perform evasive maneuvers. I haven't seen any PvP sea battles as of yet, but I imagine that a ship that doesn't want to be caught will have a better chance of dodging and disengaging, whereas two ships that are in it for the money will be more likely to run together and fight.
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"I'm as good a braggart as I am a swordsman, if not a wee bit more." - Ratdog
[Jan 14, 2003 6:27:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I guess I'm not convinced it should be all THAT hard to sink a ship. I'd rather the difficulty came in the decision, not in the doing. I would think ethics and the opportunity to take the treasure instead would be near enough. A small sloop will be maybe .01 the value of a flag? Less, if it's fairly developed and powerful? Ships aren't THAT expensive. Flags will have a number of crews, all paying taxes or something . . .

I admit I haven't been thinking about this game for edging on a year, as the Ringers have, but I think it can be pretty simple -- if you defeat (via boarding) a ship of a flag with which your flag is AT WAR, you get the cargo, the crew's cash (both done as has been described), or you can scuttle the ship and forfeit the other choices. You don't need to hit a ship with a cannon to sink it. I think I like this for several reasons . . . number one, losing a ship is more personal than losing money. War is war. Number two, it can differentiate crews . . . some will be eager to destroy, others content to pillage; the crew ratings could even reflect (in the "scoundrels" section) whether they tend to sink ships. Number three, it creates a place in the global scheme for small flags: even without an island, they can go to war and cause trouble. Number four, I *especially* like the idea of ship sinkings being the sorts of things that NPP's report, especially if they correctly report which crew committed the deed. It's a great way for other players to get a warning about the way certain crews operate. If they are extremely difficult to accomplish, it will never get reported. And while I'm dumping out ideas, rather than having to sit for a while waiting for news to come up, I think certain NPP's should gossip about certain topics. For example, to hear what ships have been sunk recently, one would hang around the shipwright. To hear what crews are shafting their NPP's, hang around the dock-job-giver . . . etc.

The other way to sink a ship would be to get it to 100% damage on the Sea Battle screen. The latter would be quite hard, and will probably only be possible for brigs, which can fire more and/or do more damage. Losing a ship would only be likely for outclassed, careless crews in small sloops who can't sail out of their way.
[Jan 14, 2003 8:15:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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I disagree, I think that ships should be hard to sink... Small sloops may not be too expensive, but when you have a small crew with only one ship, and when you get into the larger ships which are more expensive, it can be devestating to the moral of a small crew/flag to have to start over jobbing to get enough $ for a new ship. And you don't want to encourage a monopoly where one crew/flag rises stronger then all the rest and systematically sinks everyone not associated with them. (I mean just look at microsoft)
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[Jan 15, 2003 1:20:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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Also ships are only cheap now where the game is one happy lovefest - you can always job for another crew and earn money faster that way.

If a small crew looses their one ship and find that the have to take jobs from NPPs to buy a new one, they just might reconsider playing.
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jan 15, 2003 2:27:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
Ramirez



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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Well, small crews probably won't be declaring war willy-nilly either. A declaration of war is a pretty serious thing, and if a crew does it, they're accepting certain risks. If they're declaring war against a large, powerful crew when their fleet consists of one small sloop... well, that's the equivilant of sending the Canadian army marching south to try to take D.C. - I think they deserve what they'll get.
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It's seven leagues to Turtle Island. We've got a full cask of rum, half a keg of gunpowder, it's dark, and we're wearing eyepatches. Hit it.
[Jan 15, 2003 3:59:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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I have to agree with Ramirez. I was going on the assumption that war was mutual. If the tiny crew/flag declares war on the big crew, they get the whole deal. I DO agree that if war were somehow one-sided, it would ruin WAY too many people's fun. Ship prices may well change, I'll give ye that, but the amount of money a crew can get will go up with commerce also. To reiterate, if a small crew with one small sloop declares war on Microsoft, their results will correlate with how carefully they pick their battles (and successes by that crew would be a heck of a story!).

I am more concerned about Ursela's monopoly point. My *suspicion* is that folks are just independent enough that not EVERYBODY will join the One Big Dominant Flag, if such a thing ever happens . . . there's always somebody willing to vote for Nader or join the Dastardly Dragons. People love underdogs! And even if most people do get absorbed, it would still require an act of war by the little flags for the Big Flag to be able to destroy all their ships. If a Big Flag got too Big, all those dissatisfied could gather up resources and form their own flag. They STILL couldn't lose their ships, unless they declared war. To sum up, I think war should be 100% mutual, but then if it happens, ship-sinking can happen.
[Jan 15, 2003 4:25:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Flag-opoly Reply to this Post
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Ursela is her own, walking, talking, swashbuckling example of the monopoly flag argument. I see the flag distribution happening along almost the same lines as the current crew situation.

Example:

A new player logs on. We'll call him Steve. Steve is quickly greeted by a member of the largest, most aggressively expansionist flag/crew. We'll call her Ursela. Ursela seems nice, her politics look good, and she is certainly persistent, so Steve joins the Dastards. Steve, as a new player, quickly sees the advantages of having such powerful crewmates. Many ships to job on, knowledge to be shared, a snappy in-house trade system.
Steve puzzles away happily with the Dastards.
Steve gets pretty good and wants more power and renown. Steve soon realizes that the sort of fame and riches he can get through the Dastards is only in keeping with the Dastard heirarchy. Much as he likes the Dastards, Steve thinks he can make it on his own, with his own ship, and this time... as Captain!

Fin.

Ta-daa.

Or, Steve stays with the Dastards and they live happily ever after. Or there's a terrible row and Steve's new crew and the Dastards become lifelong foes and their rivalry and animosity are legendary. Or Steve never joined because he's a distrustful paranoid and starts his own Crew of fellow misanthropes and they never amount to much because they're always afraid of everybody stealing their maps.

People in this game are governed by their personalities just like in the real world. In the real world there are many different groups to be part of. And no one group gets everybody. And don't forget, there are ooo-run flags too. So, we'll have some in-game influence of what's going on too. If the need for some sort of anti-trust activity arises, we'll confront it, but until then, I think the system is working out pretty well.

-Nemo
(Who will likely have his own renegade flag of anti-imperialists, operating out of a volcano near the Canary Islands. Then all we'll need is a giant submersible war machine.... mmmm)
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[Jan 15, 2003 6:05:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Mutual War & Sinking Reply to this Post
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Heh, I love discussing this part of the game because I'm very excited about it.

So, yes, War will always be mutual and the foolish little flag that goes to war against the Dast^H^H^H^Hbig giant flag will deserve their druthers, just like the foolish MMP developer who goes up against EA, Micro$oft and $ony. Oh wait...

On the other hand my original plan was to allow players, as Homullus suggests, to choose to sink a vessel when they've won out at boarding, instead of taking her booty. I was actually testing the water a bit with the cannons-only idea, and I'm pleased that folks would like to sink more often than that would seem to engender. I expect that when we've got it all in we'll try sinking post-boarding, and see how much madness ensues.

d
[Jan 15, 2003 11:01:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Meghaford



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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So ships can sink... I also imagine they can sink with quite a bit of treasure on them...

now I wonder... if it were close to an island.. would'nt some treasure wash ashore...?

or...

aren't there skellington scavengers who sail the sea, diving to retrieve sunken treasures from the depths of the ocean?

or do the mermaids find the treasure and carry it off to their own hidden island?
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--Ursela, Captain of the Dastards
... and a few others ...
[Jan 15, 2003 1:00:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.rjmlb.com [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Curiosity... Reply to this Post
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Well, my dear, if you're interested in such things, it'd be wise to keep your voice low. There's many about who'd also like to get their hands on that gold. And more's the better to have a loud-mouthed guttersnipe lead them straight to it!
Now, far be it from me to presume... but if you think you have a crew 'at's loyal... I might know of a piece of the map that old Slaughterboard McFinn was usin' the night he was wrecked! But I'd be careful, I was you, Slaughterboard never was keen on sharin' treasure, and I doubt bein' dead's made 'im any friendlier! An' that beast what wrecked 'im still plyes those waters!
So, if you still want it, I might be willin' te part with my map... my map to the Adventure Island.
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[Jan 16, 2003 2:29:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cryptic



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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Ramirez wrote: 
Well, small crews probably won't be declaring war willy-nilly either. A declaration of war is a pretty serious thing, and if a crew does it, they're accepting certain risks. If they're declaring war against a large, powerful crew when their fleet consists of one small sloop... well, that's the equivilant of sending the Canadian army marching south to try to take D.C. - I think they deserve what they'll get.


You forget that British and Canadian forces burnt down the White House in 1814 (War of 1812). ;)
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Cryptic

When the fell moon rises and kingdoms fall
There's a time of darkness before cock's call
When the Tide washes in from windward to lee
And she leaves behind her a blood-red sea
[Jan 16, 2003 3:31:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AvaPoet



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Steve Reply to this Post
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Steve? Why didn't you just call him Ava and be done with it.
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[Jan 16, 2003 3:54:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.avangel.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Rengor



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Re: Ship sizes and Pillaging Reply to this Post
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Just had a great crew of 9 (7 of which were players) out to do some pillaging on a large sloop. I was pretty excited to sail such a large fine crew. But I have to admit that if you look at the loot alone it wasn't really worth it.

Even with the reduced capacity of 5 on a small sloop, 4 players and a good NPP swordfighter can take a brig most times. And the share will be much bigger per person that way. With 9 on board the loot was about half of the small sloop crew.

So basically for hunting merchant ships the large sloop and especially the brig are obsolete.

How about raising the amount of pirates on a merchant brig to 8 (I believe it's currently 7) and up the loot some more. That way even a full small sloop taking on a brig will be risky.

And perhaps also adding a larger merchant ship (A Galleon or which ever is larger) with around 10 NPPs to make it worthwhile taking out a large crew.

And I just thought, how about adding some Ghost Ships of all sizes with skeletons just like on land that you can attack? That would add a really neat element at sea.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jan 17, 2003 3:22:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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Ghost Ships and larger booties Reply to this Post
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You have a good point about a full crew not being worth taking out if you can do better with a small crew. Such is the nature of things, but it would be nice if there were some bigger, tougher hauls to go after with a bigger, tougher crew.

Ghost ships... on the List...
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[Jan 19, 2003 3:08:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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