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LonesomeCrow



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homullus wrote: 
The "messenger" thing is interesting, though it is essentially a faster version of sending things by ships, which we're supposed to be doing. Ships are interceptable by puzzles and everything.
.


The idea here was to provide a means of moving poe around for those who don't have a ship, or can't find anyone to cart them around collecting poe etc.

With all the threads lately about 'junior pirates' (thanks rif) not being able to bring poe with them to do whatever (fight skellies, challenge others fer poe, etc...), I thought this might be a solution. (as well as provide an area for MORE puzzles).

And as far as it being faster than ships, only because they don't have to get up to speed like a ship does. Other than that it flies along the ship routes just as a ship does, but doesn't require a ship, or officer status to operate. This could just as easily be a one man dinghy that a person could sail around.
Edit: although I don't know that I want to see a sea full of small dinghys.

How could a junior pirate living on Emperor, go to a more populated island like Guava to challenge others fer poe if all his money is on Emperor? Simple send a courier pigeon to Guava, take a ferry to Guava, wait fer bird to show - and hope nobody intercepts it. (since ferries are immediate, but the courier would have to traverse the distance in real time)
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Sergio Aragones wrote: 


[Jul 29, 2003 4:30:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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We are going to allow inter-archipelago transfers in the next release, for a fixed 10% fee -- a guaranteed pillage, if you will. We'll see how it goes. Certainly the money thing is a pain and I'm growing tired of the complaints... there is some gameplay there; whenever I go pillaging people want to stop by islands and pick stuff up etc. We'll se how it goes.
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LonesomeCrow



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how does this help people get poe to uninhabited islands, or islands without banks?
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Sergio Aragones wrote: 


[Jul 29, 2003 6:57:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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how does this help people get poe to uninhabited islands, or islands without banks?

It doesn't. See above about gameplay... (g)

I like the pigeon idea, but it's not viable for a good while (extra puzzle, extra system, etc.) If the non-whisking is completely unviable then we'll need to 'fix' it sooner than that... right now, I'd say the jury is still out.

The skellies are perhaps the most esoteric case, but even there someone could sail and front the money (and if they didn't, how would they search all the islands for them?). Wagers bother me more, but it seems to me that most wagering will take place on an island with a bank. I regularly have people trotting off to a bank... perhaps when you wager (or buy at a shoppe, something else we discussed) it should just auto-withdraw the funds. Yeah...
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muffy



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poor, overburdened pigeons Reply to this Post
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Cleaver wrote: 
I like the pigeon idea, but it's not viable for a good while (extra puzzle, extra system, etc.) If the non-whisking is completely unviable then we'll need to 'fix' it sooner than that... right now, I'd say the jury is still out.


Well, aye, in theory, but think of the poor pigeon, laden down with 100 heavy-ish chunks of gold!
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Penndalla

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Auto withdrawels on islands with banks be a fine idea. I don't take the time to run to the bank fer 30 poe to sword fight someone on the docks, but I would be glad to wager if it did no' subtract from me already busy game-time.
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[Jul 29, 2003 12:39:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
garf



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a slightly related idea came to me recently.. mabye this would better be placed in the pvp incentives thread, though.

it goes like this... if a pirate burries his money, he would likely need a map to it. with all that rum, forgetting where it was would be highly likely, aye?

the maps would have to be no-trade, but they *could* be pillaged. make it a (maybe 10%? per map per pirate?) chance that on defeat in sea battle, ye lose a treasure map (and therefore yer money on that island) to the victors.

anyone who acquired the treasure map (only possible with pillaging; it could be thinkable that some rich brigands who have won a lot might carry around some, though) would auto-dig-out the money jest like they did now.



this system would have two major points behind it:

- make it necessary to actually get yer burried money away if ye want it save. it would basically make the "i give ye money here, you give me money there" exchange a risky thing. this would surely make people really go on runs to pick up their burried money. and its very likely that the rich like rifkind, who offer the kind exchange service, would most probably step back from that. that is, of course, assuming this is intended.

- give banks a whole new meaning beyond the transfer thing. yer money would be safe there. and it would basically be the only place where its safe.


obviously, this also has some problems:

- it would increase the cries of the ship-/crewless to get their money even more, obviously. but since the whole no-money-whisking thing is intended to get money on the seas, that shouldnt be a real problem, aye?

- a seemingly minor one, but i personally wouldnt like it: it makes skelly hunting more difficult fer those that are not exactly poor (so they can have some 500 poe burried on all diamond islands) and not exactly rich either (so they actually care fer those 500 burried poe per island). i happen to be one of them.. arr, i must be kinda drunk to suggest such a thing. ;)

any additions, comments, "what an awfull idea, because..." are welcome, of course.
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LonesomeCrow



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Lets see if I understand this right....

If I have money buried on Oyster, and thus carry a treasure map to it, and you somehow manage to pillage it from me.

Some assumptions:
The map is only good for 10% of my buried treasure.
I don't need a map to find my remaining 90% (which seems a bit contradictory)
If I you don't pick up the booty, the map can now be pillaged from you.

Sound like a good idea to me. But I think your right, better suited for PvP thread as I don't see how it addresses any of the concerns with the money transfer problems.
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Sergio Aragones wrote: 


[Jul 29, 2003 11:21:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I would put it at 30%, or whatever rate it gets pillaged at, so that you run the same risk on land as at sea.

It should also NOT be clear how much is there from the map. "OOH, treasure map! Let's go dig it up!", netting the pirate 37 gold. Or maybe 3700.

Another option is pillaging a copy of the map, so that subsequent pillagers can ALSO pillage a copy, and the original player keeps one at all times.

This makes banks a high priority for colonization.
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muffy



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Frankly, with 200K in the bank and another 160K owed to me, the loss of a couple thousand on an island is almost irrelevant to me. I can make it back in a couple hours of good pillaging, but I really don't need it - I have the outfit I want, 8 ships or so (gave a few up for the navy), and I won a nice short sword from the skellies. I've sailed me ship with 100K in me pocket before and not really worried about it. Why are ye so worried about me? (And by the way, I could easily get around yer treasure map pillagin' by having an unknown alt bury the same amount everywhere, then never sail anywhere...*grin*.)

The people I worry about are the poor people who have only 300 or so to their name, and can't get it from place to place because they aren't officers in a crew, and the officers aren't going where they need to go. This system doesn't work for them. Pennsuedo has apparently (he told me so) picked me as a target to make trouble for, so perhaps ye're all just goin' along, but my understanding of the motivation for the banks and burying and whatnot is so that LARGE sums of money will be moved by ship, making interesting pillage targets. The hundred or two that I port for someone is not a LARGE sum of money. If the Ringers want me to stop doing so, they can just tell me to and I will. Meanwhile, I HAVE moved LARGE sums of money by ship, many times. It hardly seems reasonable that the money has to be put at risk more than once (many many times, if it's every time I put to sea), unless ye also implement bank robberies and muggings, so that everyone's money is constantly at risk.
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LonesomeCrow



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muffy wrote: 
Well, aye, in theory, but think of the poor pigeon, laden down with 100 heavy-ish chunks of gold!


Well It could be carried by an African Pigeon, (certainly not a European pigeon). Or do I have my pigeons and swallows mixed up again?
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Sergio Aragones wrote: 


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garf



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im not at all after ye, rifkind.. on the contrary, i think yer service fer the poor newbies is a very good thing. ye jest have been chosen as example because of that. and because, to me knowledge, ye are one of the richest pirates around. (*)


back to the idea - originally, i meant that ye get a 10% chance per map that it gets pillaged, but the full amount of money from there *if* ye get the map. quite possibly that may seem harsh, but then, this system only makes sense at all if a) banks need more meaning and b) people are not supposed to have their money spread over all islands forever. if the latter assumption is false, then indeed the system would be worthless.

if, however, it was true, it would give everyone, officers included, more incentives to collect their money. which, after all, was the point unless i got something wrong.

surely the devs could ask ye to stop doing that, but thats rather pointless. the game isnt designed around a single person, and others do what you do, and more importantly more will be able to do that later on in the full game.



(*) by the way, again, no offense - and i mean it!, but maybe yer wealth is a part of yer different judgement and partial frustration? considering ye feel that "jest" 150 poe from pillaging isnt much, "a few hundred" arent worth mentioning and so on.. ask yer average newbie at the docks how they feel about that. in fact, ive been "instachallenged" to a swordight with wagers around 17 poe more than once already.
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[Jul 30, 2003 2:22:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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garf wrote: 
back to the idea - originally, i meant that ye get a 10% chance per map that it gets pillaged, but the full amount of money from there *if* ye get the map. quite possibly that may seem harsh, but then, this system only makes sense at all if a) banks need more meaning and b) people are not supposed to have their money spread over all islands forever. if the latter assumption is false, then indeed the system would be worthless.


More to the point, it singles out people who have money spread around (including, by the way, the poor pirates with only a few hundred POE who work at markets on uncolonized islands) to have their money constantly at risk, instead of just at the one time when they ship it. And ye'll be hurtin' them more than me. I can't say as I know what was in the Ringers' minds with the whole burying thing, but they have always stated that what they had in mind was to have large amounts of cash at sea at risk, which at this point, it is.

garf wrote: 
if, however, it was true, it would give everyone, officers included, more incentives to collect their money. which, after all, was the point unless i got something wrong.


Not really, it would just mean that we'd have "someone else" bury it, who never went to sea.

garf wrote: 
maybe yer wealth is a part of yer different judgement and partial frustration? considering ye feel that "jest" 150 poe from pillaging isnt much, "a few hundred" arent worth mentioning and so on.. ask yer average newbie at the docks how they feel about that.


Aye, of course. That's understood, but also consider that it's not like I'm somehow special (well, of course, I like to think that I am...*grin*). Me riches are simply the result of a great deal of work pillagin' (and some shrewd investments), and anyone can get there. Faster if they pillage with me or Soma...*grin*. I started out a poor barefoot pirate on the docks, just like anyone else, and not really all that long ago, either. That's just what I'm gettin' at, though - the current state of banking, or even these suggestions to penalize those who have money buried everywhere, are only going to hurt the poor pirates. Given what I've heard about officers in other crews exploiting the pirates under them, especially - pillaging of buried money would only benefit officers and captains in other crews, not the people with very little money, who are out of luck either way. Ye're basically suggesting discouraging me (and others) from helping them consolidate their cash and also forcing them to have their wages constantly at risk (or discouraging them from taking positions at the markets, which might well be the only employment available).
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[Jul 30, 2003 2:44:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Penndalla

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Arr, I have a quick fix fer it all then. This should be fair enough fer all. Do away with buried moneys and let the poe lay unseen and hidden on the ship (once the owner is off it) until that ship hits an island with a bank. It will be subject to the same looting that all poe is on a ship. Then also, ye will always have to ship money to deal on islands without banks. Bank transfers can be addressed seperately.
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[Jul 30, 2003 11:49:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
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Penndalla wrote: 
Arr, I have a quick fix fer it all then. This should be fair enough fer all. Do away with buried moneys and let the poe lay unseen and hidden on the ship (once the owner is off it) until that ship hits an island with a bank. It will be subject to the same looting that all poe is on a ship. Then also, ye will always have to ship money to deal on islands without banks. Bank transfers can be addressed seperately.

But, what about wages? I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship. I think that this is most of the leftover money. I hope so, anyway, as cash you leave from pillaging should stay on board til you hit a bank.

Re: Rifkind's incredible money warping service, that's fine. As she says, the intention is to have large sums shipped by sea, and to create a bit of gameplay.

In the future there will be a dig for buried treasure puzzle, but it'll only work on amounts buried longer than a few days. And it's a waaays down the List.
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muffy



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Cleaver wrote: 
But, what about wages? I've never been logged on, let alone on a ship. I think that this is most of the leftover money. I hope so, anyway, as cash you leave from pillaging should stay on board til you hit a bank.


Aye, it does, which kind of freaks people out who haven't read the docs too closely. The more I look at this thread, the more I think the real problem is that, in an effort to get money on ships, ye've made money somewhat confusing and counter-intuitive. I'm not sure what the answer is; obviously, interarchipelago transfers are important, but that doesn't handle the market job situation, even for local archipelago markets. Perhaps, like the navy, they could pay ye at yer home bank? Even more so from what ye say, it doesn't seem like individual wages are what's at issue here, and that would help all the "little people" (hee hee) a lot.
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Hanzii



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I like the interarchiplago transfer system Cleaver lined out.

But as Rifkind pointed out, the trouble - and the reason behind the 100s of 'my money's stuck at Byrne' posts - is in the small amounts earned on far of islands by people, who first of all don't quite grasp the complex money system yet and don't have enough money to not care about a couple of hundred poe stuck on foreign shores.
In other words new players.

The rest of us can go without our money for a while or have extensive lists of friends and crewmembers willing to help out - but for the new player wanting to spend money, having to get 100 poe 15 leagues away is a hassle.

The simple solution:
Poor pirates can whisk poe, the rest cannot.

Set a limit - say 1500 poe. Anybody with 1500 poe or less in total (all banks, all accounts... all holes in the ground) can whisk money about like in the old days - those with more cannot.

This could be exploited to move large sums without risk, but would entail having a seperate muling account or trusting other players with large sums.
Keep track on the money on a pirate, so if a pirate makes trades totalling more than 1500 poe in a day, the ability to whisk is gone for at least 24 hours. This tracking could even be accountwide.
Exploiting would still be possible - but extremely timeconsuming or mean a lot of seperate accounts working together.

---
the even simpler solution would be to let the whisking ability last as long as the newbie flag (the one used to determine whether a player counts against swabbies or not on a ship) - which I assume is accountwide.
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Penndalla

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Good idea, thar, Hazii.

Ye could let a newbie whisk until they trade over 1500 poe total from the time the pirate is created. Once the first pirate is deleted on the account, the ability is lost to all pirates on that account.

Once pay accounts are in, this limits the exploit to 4500 per paid account, and that be no' much an exploit at that point.
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[Jul 30, 2003 7:32:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/Pennsuedo/?start=all [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



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Nice idea, Hanzii.

A tricky one related to this: would it be possible to choose WHERE your job offer is posted? At the moment the only way for Thanas to job people is to post a notice and hang around Alpha or Turtle, as the notice disappears when he gets on his ship; because Sadako is based in Emerald a "normal" hiring jobbers notice appears there. It means a lot of time-consuming trading around money to pay jobbers in their own archipelago so that they can keep their money after a pillage trip...maybe the jobbing notice could go to the nearest inhabited island instead of the crew home? Then people exploring other archipelagos for a map pillage would be able to job easier.
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garf



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i very much like the idea of the "newbie-flagged" being able to whisk money around. the total amount would still have to be limited, or we'll soon have fresh accounts doing the money transport service for a free. so what if anyone flagged as newbie could whisk around a maximum of, say, 5000 poe? that would mean he could whisk around his 250 poe 20 times.

penn, ye might not have noticed, but newbie is an account-wide flag, not per pirate.

cleaver - i dont really understand your post. whats with wages?
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[Jul 30, 2003 10:56:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    garf+on+aim [Link]  Go to top 
Gotagota

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I don't much care for full ocean-wide bank transfers. I don't know why; they just don't sit right with me.

As an alternative, what if only the gateways islands could transfer interarchipelago? This would make Guava, Cnossos, Emporer, Byrne, Papaya, Uxmal, and The Horseshoe Crabs able to transfer between each respective matching gateway island (that is, Cnossos to Guava and Emporer) and their respective archipelagos.

Money would have to make hops to travel across the whole ocean, each bank taking their cut. This would also mean that the further the money has to travel, the bigger the tax. Something like this could encourage even more a long-distance shipping company...think of how expensive it would be to move your 50,000 poe from Tinga to whatever islands we see next on the other side of the Sapphire Archipelago. Then remember for just the cost of rum you can get the whole load to your destination worry-free.

The only downside I'll listen to (ha!) about this idea is that it will make Guava richer.
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LonesomeCrow



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Hanzii wrote: 
the even simpler solution would be to let the whisking ability last as long as the newbie flag (the one used to determine whether a player counts against swabbies or not on a ship) - which I assume is accountwide.


Nice idea, only I think this might just change the "My money's stuck on Byrne" to "My money no longer comes with me", or a lot of bogus bug reports. Either way there will be some 'required' reading before newbies will understand the money system.
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Sergio Aragones wrote: 


[Jul 31, 2003 12:32:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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You're right of course.

But when people only have two poe to rub together, I feel sorry because the rigid rules prevent them from getting those 200 stuck on Byrne.
When they've spent 1500 (or whatever the limit may be) I'd feel more comfortable in saying 'stop whining and learn the rules of the game.'.
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muffy



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Gotagota wrote: 
As an alternative, what if only the gateways islands could transfer interarchipelago? [...]
Money would have to make hops to travel across the whole ocean, each bank taking their cut. This would also mean that the further the money has to travel, the bigger the tax.


Well, the only problem I have with this is the decision as to which islands constitute "gateway" islands. I'm not sure that Guava, for example, was meant to be the central/gateway island of Emerald.

I love the idea of it costing more the further yer money travels. The way this might be worked out is by usin' the current charting system, and including all banks on all intervening islands, as defined by what the "official" routes between those islands are. As an example, let's say that ye lose 1% per league yer money travels. The shortest route from Guava to Alpha is (I think) 13 leagues, through Cnossos, so any transfer between those islands charges a 13% fee. There is no bank on Cnossos, so it is not relevant to the transfer. Once someone builds a bank on Cnossos, the Guava-Cnossos fee is 6% and the Cnossos-Alpha fee is 7%. Which banks get these fees? Since each bank is participating in the transfer, it seems like each should get half, rather than worrying about the direction of the transfer. If there are an approximately equal number of transfers in each direction, this would work out the same as fees based on direction of money movement.
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Cleaver
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Peghead, Jack and the rest of us argued bank transfers til we were blue in the face. The current system is a placeholder for a more complex system that will one day allow bankers to reconcile accounts with each other and make money from the transfer fees. Peghead was very keen on pricing by the league, too, and I think it makes sense. Consider the complex system 'on the list' and the simple one (which I'm afraid to say pockets the 10%) as a temporary convenience to ease newbie pains.
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i dont know if this was said or not but ... if the banking system was to be changed to do more then sell and buy dubs , or transfer money ... but what about loans , and you had to pay so much to the bank each money depending on house much you took out , and if you dont pay it , you get fee's and if you dont pay a second time the bank takes clothing , ships , houses , what ever you got , or better yet puts a frezze on their money so if they go on a pilly and say they get 1k from small pilly , the money goes right to the bank intill the fee's are paid. tho i could see people tring to get big loans , then sending it to another alt , or buying things and sending to alt ...
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by request of howtie,
redsails on every ocean but two-
glaucus- Parley isn't a mud-slinging pit.
[Dec 27, 2007 7:41:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
damagon

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Please note the 4 1/2 years bump.
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Damagon
[Dec 27, 2007 7:42:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Kotetsu534



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XD
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Nomura, SO of Innocent, Member of Crimson Tide, Midnight.
[Dec 27, 2007 7:45:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Loans are Anti-listed.

Faulkston,
Anti-listy linky
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[Dec 27, 2007 7:49:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
StuManchu

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This rebaler guy rolled through GD and 4 year bumped a bunch of threads, if he wasn't so god drat incoherent he'd be my new hero.
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Was once Stuyvesant

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[Dec 28, 2007 8:16:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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