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Rengor



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Shop keeping troubles Reply to this Post
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Time to sum up some of the shop keeping experiences lately.

Supply
The supply of raw materials have been subject to discussion since day 1 of the economy. It's hideous as it is right now. Camping is utterly boring and a sign of weakness in the design. Foraging just plain isn't worth it.
Markets don't have enough labors I hear, and they don't provide what we need. The 5 colonized islands in Emerald will suck the archipelago dry of everything the more shops we get, and it's bad as it is.
It seems like the most of the rum there is is magically created by the devs(which after all is good so we can go be pirates).
And markets are boosted by devs on and off too.
It's not working.

Demand
With the start of Beta we've had an enormous influx of new pirates, and wow they keep me busy. I sell as much in one day as I used to sell in one week before the beta, but pretty much all of it is brown/white due to lack of dyes. And since I cannot possibly keep up with supply since I rely on a weaver who relies on a apothecary that all rely on a supply situation that is not working, Im getting huge amounts of people complaining about lack of cloth or about having to wait for their orders to finish. And they dont care about a non working supply system, they just want their clothes and NOW. Im constantly getting more and more rude and aggressive tells and speaks on when and why not. And I know thats the case for other shop keepers too.
It's not fun.

Labor
The latest change with having a max amount of workers has halted alot of businesses. It seems like the reason is to encourage more shops to pop up so a few shops can't supply everyone and the task of shop keeping is shared by more. There's not enough raw materials to stock the current shops, more shops will only make the situation worse for more shop keepers. A more gentle shift towards such a situation would've been nice so we on Guava for instance could've planned ahead and built some more shops, but with 45 employees max in the realtor it will take an average building with the perfect 45 employees a month to get built.
I had way over the 15 max employees I can have, and every day I loose a handfull or more employees and the list of orders around peak hours get longer and the customers louder.
Once we get craft puzzle ratings, it will get even harder to know your employees.

Changes?
The restrictions on the amount of workers in shops will have to be removed or raised considerably soon or prices will start to inflate heavily and there will be fewer ships sailing.

The supply of raw materials need some serious change such as the harvesting based on consumption there's talk of elsewhere.

I would like a labor system where we only have 1 job per account, this would make people actually care where they work, and shopkeepers know that their 15 employees are actually working for them. Also it would enable customers to get correct estimations on when their order is complete so they can shop around for that too. With craft puzzle ratings it would even make shop keepers shop for workers.

Some way to encourage trading would be nice, it's completely unpredictable right now where you can sail from Guava to Uxmal and find 4 nettle a trip that will cost you a fortune and take hours. And the building of shops in Emerald is causing items to disappear from the markets all the time. Take markets away from players and make them auto harvest and sell.
But otherwise having a contract system where a shopkeeper can issue a contract for commodities to be guaranteed available/reserved in one shop and delivered by a trader would give traders a simple way to evaluate whether it's worth their time or even profitable. I could even see all trading done this way, it would take out camping and tedious trips to empty markets.
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jul 28, 2003 5:30:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Stoneman



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Re: Shop keeping troubles Reply to this Post
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I cannot see i have had too much experience with the shop-problem but i am noticing the lack of resources. we went on a trading-tour where we visited 8 island in a hunt fer iron.. We found 28 iron... That is not worth it to take trips like that when this is all you find.. it just costs you money...... Listen to what silverbeard has to say.. It seems pretty good to me...
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-=Stoneman, Officer of Black Death=-
-=Feared now and then=-
[Jul 28, 2003 6:02:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://tt.bulie.com    ehaanaes    Ehaanaes [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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I have lots of supplies - because I only need three and they can be had at neighbouring islands. Even if the markets are empty, the trips aren't that long as to cost a lot.
... and I camp for iron all day long, and I suspect my other suppliers do it while I'm not online.
And now that a lot of traders know, that Cleaver and co. dumps vast amounts of goods in nearby markets, more people bring me stuff (and not the compettitors, because my prices are best).
So my shop is working great.

But the minutes people can pick the colours of their ship (which I suppose will demand dyes), I'll only be making brown ships for sure.

But the shoppe is only working because of
a) luck (closeness of supplies)
b) simplicity (only three types of supplies and only relying on one other shop... which can also be supplied from a neighbouring island)
c) camping,
d) dev intervention and finally
e) my caretaking/pricing.

In a working economy. This list should be different. a) and e) should switch places. c) and d) shouldn't be on the list at all.

[/agreeing with Silverbeard]

No one shoppe to rule them all
I agree with the devs, that no one shop should be able to fill all players needs alone, but I think the worker limits is the wrong way to accomplish this. At least the limits should be raised.
Scarcity of commodities and natuaral competition will do more towards this goal, than a worker limit. I don't mean commodities should be as scarce as now - but at the same time all shops shouldn't be able to have all commodities in stock at all time. Shopping around for that one shoppe with enough fine black cloth for a very expensive captains jacket should be part of the game (sailing yer money to a far off place to by it would make it mean more - after all expensive gear is the only visible sign of status in this game).
Some commodities should be so scarce as to encourage inter-archiplago competition for the needed commodities.

Worker limits
If you want to keep the limit, then raise it. And make it one character-one job (not accountwise as Silver suggests)
But I think you should chuck it for now. When supply-demand seem in some sort of balance without constant dev. intervention, you can begin finding out what the limit should be and putting it in again.

Supplies
But the more common supplies should be more readily avaliable. Make it a long and dangerous travel to find 100 units of Yarrow or 250 iron - not a short, boring and oft repeated trip to find 5.
Make the chances of foraging the really valuable stuff a a factor based on distance travelled and dangers faced (how many red routes etc.).
Make the chances of pillaging rare stuff increase with the odds of winning a fight - if ye beat a red target you're almost sure to get Kraken's Blood or something like it.

Foraging
And foraging is booched. The old way was exploited, but the fix made foraging a useless feature.

 
And the building of shops in Emerald is causing items to disappear from the markets all the time. Take markets away from players and make them auto harvest and sell.


Disappearing? Why? Explain what's causing this.

But I do think markets should be under governor control.
It would be stupid to race to colonize an island like Guava with the commodities to make building quick (wood and stone) only to see it being sold to your compettitors, because the market was beyond your control.
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 28, 2003 6:53:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
saynata

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[quote]
[quote]But I do think markets should be under governor control.
It would be stupid to race to colonize an island like Guava with the commodities to make building quick (wood and stone) only to see it being sold to your compettitors, because the market was beyond your control.[/quote]


Actually, I think that that's one of the things that's happening to Silverbeard's cloth supply. I have to go down to Guava to get cloth because there's no way that Alpha and Turtle can keep up with the rate that my cloth is being sold at (especially because Thusnelda fired her employees, which is going to slow me down further. :( and Vixen's shop has always been a bit slow). I have not yet been able to hold a decent surplus of any color cloth, and I've learned quickly that I can't, as hard as I try, supply myself. It's not fair to my crew to have to utilize our vessels solely for trade, especially with this rum scarcity.

I'd like to add that I really, really appreciate the elegance of having a supply and demand chain (Apoth-Weaver-Tailor) BUT with current changes, it's been made extremely hard to get anything done.
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[size=9] Saynata, Captain and Supreme So-and-So of The Sirens; Former Mistress of the ol' Sew 'n' Sew.
[Jul 28, 2003 10:51:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vgnight



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This is a suggestion ive relized all the shops are having big trouble but if i owend a shop i would stop taking orders (if this is posssible) or just stop supplying (keep all the supplies on one of your larger boats) it for like a week and let it finnish all the orders to stop the back log or for like the distelery build up a large supplie of rum. THis would take all the back log out wich would help a lot. Sorry if this is confusing.
[Jul 28, 2003 11:15:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    vgnight    vgnight [Link]  Go to top 
Squidbeard

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Am I missing something? Reply to this Post
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Let me make sure I'm hearing everything right:
    Supplies are too scarce, and hardly worth collecting.
    Demand is so high that shoppekeepers can't keep up.[/list:u:0dfe514765]
    Now, I've only taken a couple semesters of Economics, but what little I've learned leads me to think that perhaps shoppekeepers would be well-advised to raise the prices they're willing to pay for materials, and raise the prices of the goods they sell.

    Kraken's blood is extraordinarily expensive, because it's extraordinarily rare. If wood, stone, hemp, brown cloth, etc. are relatively rare (which they seem to be right now), then they should be relatively expensive.

    Of course, this risks an inflationary spiral, where sugar costs so much that the price of rum goes up so much that it's not profitable to trade in sugar...

    Where's Alan Greenspanbeard when you need him?

    --Sq

    P.S. I'm savin' up fer a sloop, so could ye hold off on raisin' prices 'til after I've bought it? Thank ye!
    ----------------------------------------
    Squid
    High Priest, Cult of the Red Mantis
[Jul 29, 2003 12:00:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://looterati.goldfish.org [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Orders are done in the order received, so stopping production won't get them done one iota faster.

I think we will be raising prices on Turtle (weavery) soon to allow for loss, as an experiment, though I haven't talked to Thusnelda about it yet. This should, ever so slightly, increase the profitabilty of trade and the number of traders.
[Jul 29, 2003 2:06:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Nemo
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It's been mentioned on other posts (and it certainly should be in this one) that we have a new addition planned for keeping the economy dynamic and making trade profitable. It is coming. Cleaver will surely mention something at some point, but for now know that it is on the top of The List.

-Nemo
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[Jul 29, 2003 2:08:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
muffy



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Squidbeard wrote: 
Let me make sure I'm hearing everything right:
    Supplies are too scarce, and hardly worth collecting.
    Demand is so high that shoppekeepers can't keep up.[/list:u:5e9852683f]
    Now, I've only taken a couple semesters of Economics, but what little I've learned leads me to think that perhaps shoppekeepers would be well-advised to raise the prices they're willing to pay for materials, and raise the prices of the goods they sell.


I did that, before letting go of the Alpha tailor. I raised profits on selling cloth to me 500%, me own profit margins 300%, and doubled the amount of stock-on-hand (where I could). Didn't help at all. I just made a lot more money, and still sold out of cloth in between one time I logged in and the next. Meanwhile any colors got scarcer and scarcer.
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[Jul 29, 2003 2:30:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Re: Am I missing something? Reply to this Post
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Squidbeard wrote: 

Now, I've only taken a couple semesters of Economics, but what little I've learned leads me to think that perhaps shoppekeepers would be well-advised to raise the prices they're willing to pay for materials, and raise the prices of the goods they sell.


This is somewhat true. The prices for some of the rarer stuff has long been too low (nice players too wary of competing?).
But for the more common goods, that are rare because everyone needs them (nobody need a new sword or a red/black dress) like iron or sugar, this is what would happen:

 

Of course, this risks an inflationary spiral, where sugar costs so much that the price of rum goes up so much that it's not profitable to trade in sugar...


but a fix is on the way, lets see what it does.

 

P.S. I'm savin' up fer a sloop, so could ye hold off on raisin' prices 'til after I've bought it? Thank ye!


Better hurry, then!
----------------------------------------
Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 29, 2003 3:00:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
saynata

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Re: Am I missing something? Reply to this Post
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muffy wrote: 
Squidbeard wrote: 
Let me make sure I'm hearing everything right:
    Supplies are too scarce, and hardly worth collecting.
    Demand is so high that shoppekeepers can't keep up.[/list:u:8db3c11ddf]
    Now, I've only taken a couple semesters of Economics, but what little I've learned leads me to think that perhaps shoppekeepers would be well-advised to raise the prices they're willing to pay for materials, and raise the prices of the goods they sell.


I did that, before letting go of the Alpha tailor. I raised profits on selling cloth to me 500%, me own profit margins 300%, and doubled the amount of stock-on-hand (where I could). Didn't help at all. I just made a lot more money, and still sold out of cloth in between one time I logged in and the next. Meanwhile any colors got scarcer and scarcer.


^Ditto. I'm going to nudge up prices slightly, but I hate gouging people too much and I haven't met ANYONE who will actually go out and buy cloth to trade to me. I'm letting people know now that I'll pay a decent profit margin for cloth, as soon as I determine a 'standard'.

I believe that raising prices didn't/doesn't have any effect because there are so few things to spend money on for newer players (boats/rum/shot, clothes, swords) that people don't really mind paying that money for clothing, because it's really not all that expensive unless you kick the prices way up (300 for a bandana would be fun to try**).

In my opinion, there's very little diminishing marginal utility (think that's the fancy ec. term, I took a bumper course once) for clothes either, because not very many people can be satisfied with just one color or shirt. You could have several sets of clothing*. Little to no reason to stop buying.

**(...but I'd be undercut by my Alpha competition anyway).
*(I practically recycled any money that I'd win with Rifkind in her stores)
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[size=9] Saynata, Captain and Supreme So-and-So of The Sirens; Former Mistress of the ol' Sew 'n' Sew.
[Jul 29, 2003 3:04:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thusnelda

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I can make CLOTH just fine, but it's the dye that I don't have. I have gone all over the place to try and get some, bypassing the dye makers in my own archipelago, only to have perhaps the worst night I have ever had in PP last night trying to get red dye from Tinga to Turtle. I just want to bang my head against the wall. This should not be happening. The problem lies at the bottom of the food chain.

Maybe there's something that says that commodities are available in the archipelago. Maybe the markets (which I really don't see much use for) are used by some sort of peddler type, who brings all sorts of fun things like swords and potions and whatnot from other archipelagoes or something. I don't know. But last night had too many problems (being repeatedly insulted by noobs, being pillaged repeatedly and not being able to get tokens or hire swabbies, people logging on our ship without asking and raising our attack profile) and I NEVER want to have to get all the way from Tinga to Turtle with two PPs and a swabbie again. That's ridiculous.

I dunno... this isn't directly related to everything we're discussing here, but how about a "Close ship" option for a ranking officer so that even with a non-full complement of staffers the ship won't accept any other players? With the influx of newbies, I'd say it's pretty much necessary. Also, maybe an indicator displaying that you are a trading ship. Could very well wave a flag that says, "HEY! Pillage me!" but then again we all pretty much expect it. I suppose it could be very easily abused, but ye never know.
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Madam, proud Looterata
Why are old people playing on this game i dont know its probly something to do with control but its kind of werd. Get a life or a girl friend or mabe even a wife but if your an adult that plays this game your a loser
[Jul 29, 2003 4:07:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Fixes Reply to this Post
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Trading: as Nemo says, fix on the way.

Commodity Supplies: fix on the way. The big problem here is that it looks like we're going to be supporting double our anticipated population in an archipelago. Meantime, I am fixing it by hand.

Foraging: next release you'll be able to forage your full 24 hours of labour at an island. Hopefully this will make it useful again.

I really do appreciate the pain and difficulties of the current economy. As might have been apparent, I was less than delighted by the employee restriction being introduced now, but I think it'll be revised, and I can see the logic in introducing greater competition.

On this note we will be auctioning more shoppes when we fix the supply problem.
[Jul 29, 2003 6:57:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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saynata wrote: 
I'm going to nudge up prices slightly, but I hate gouging people too much and I haven't met ANYONE who will actually go out and buy cloth to trade to me.


Well, I do it for Silverbeard, and I would do it for you, but you're in Diamond, and I gave up on the Diamond economy three weeks ago.

But it's the thought that counts, right?
----------------------------------------
Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Jul 29, 2003 7:21:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
saynata

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No cookies for you, knave! *grin*
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[size=9] Saynata, Captain and Supreme So-and-So of The Sirens; Former Mistress of the ol' Sew 'n' Sew.
[Jul 29, 2003 8:08:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Urganite



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I'm not a shop owner, I'm just a simple trader. I'm no expert, but the problem as I see it is that alot of the trade is shop internalized, and what I mean by that is, there don't seem to be many (if any) exporters of any product that isn't raw materials, which concentrates traders around one or two items of trade and usually just one or two trade routes. Myself, I hang around diamond 90% of the time just because I don't have the maps to get much of anywhere else, and I try to find as many possible trade routes as I can to minimize time I spend camping a resource, which is unrelentingly boring. Right now, there's really only two major routes that I take, wood from papaya to alpha, and hemp from oyster to turtle. I do some variations on that based on what the demand situation is for hemp and wood but that's basically it because trying to buy iron is like trying to scrape enough butter for your bread off an empty butter dish, and there aren't many other commodities to trade that don't either have an incredibly low supply (iron, dye ingredients, certain minerals) or an incredibly low demand (sincosite comes to mind, only very small quantities can be traded of that), and in fact, I feel that there just aren't enough commodities to trade. Cloth is practically non-tradeable for traders like myself, there's no place to buy it, and even provided you could buy it (like brown cloth), there aren't many places to sell it and the places that do buy it will usually only pay you 1 piece of eight per lot. I'm really just rambling, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that trading needs to have a few more steps inserted in it if possible, because traders are overly concentrated in just a few commodity markets and it's causing a bottleneck for some buyers and sellers, especially those in remote locations or those who demand only small quantities of a certain resource that make tradeing it impractical. Also, I won't be specific, but there is the rum price problem. Currently, I'm just sailing without it, I can't afford otherwise. Right now, the laws of economics dictate that prices should be skyrocketing for finished goods, but that would take alot of the fun out of the game for newbies, since anyone who isn't a trader or a shop owner would invariably just be saving up money for some unattainable piece of clothing, maybe buy one article a month or so and it'd just get boring real fast.

On a wholely seperate note, the game economy itself will eventually suffer from a bottle neck of zero demand at the point where new player levels drop off and as the monetary value of their pirates' possessions increase, since there won't be anything that they will want to buy. I don't know if this is intended to be addressed or not but I thought I'd say something now before it sneaks up on everyone like the y2k bug.

I also want to say that I think that trade contracts are somewhat of a good idea, but I'm guessing that there will be alot of "contract grabbing" if the competition is stiff enough (as I suspect it will be if ships remain cheaper than clothes and swords. ) and maybe there should be some kind of an auction system where traders can bid on a term or quantity contract.

I also think that ships need to be alot more expensive than they are now, and possibly make it so ships can only be commissioned by flag royalty or by sanctioned crew captains and officers in a flag, so that the number of crews with only one person running their own ship by themselves to trade and keep all the profits to themselves won't be too high.
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Rengor



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I agree with ye on the trading experiences.

Urganite wrote: 
On a wholely seperate note, the game economy itself will eventually suffer from a bottle neck of zero demand at the point where new player levels drop off and as the monetary value of their pirates' possessions increase, since there won't be anything that they will want to buy.
That's not true. Rum and cannon balls will increase in demand as new players move from the larger training ships to player crews and forming their own crews and taking out ships on their own. Clothes will always be something people keep renewing even if you'd think they have what they need ;) Swords to a lesser degree are also renewed on and off.

Urganite wrote: 
I also think that ships need to be alot more expensive than they are now, and possibly make it so ships can only be commissioned by flag royalty or by sanctioned crew captains and officers in a flag, so that the number of crews with only one person running their own ship by themselves to trade and keep all the profits to themselves won't be too high.
I think ships have a fair price. The latest Galleon I bought is more expensive than some of the shops we built on Guava. If anything there's not really any reason to take a large ship out other than for the sheer fun of it and thats a shame.
There will always be solo traders whether they are in a large crew or in their own little crew, they will get the profit of their work either way. I bet you solo trading too at least sometimes?
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-= SilverBeard of The Mad Mutineers =-
--=== www.madmutineers.com ===--
[Jul 29, 2003 6:31:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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You're not 'just' a simple trader. Your experience is right on.

Urganite wrote: 

On a wholely seperate note, the game economy itself will eventually suffer from a bottle neck of zero demand at the point where new player levels drop off and as the monetary value of their pirates' possessions increase, since there won't be anything that they will want to buy. I don't know if this is intended to be addressed or not but I thought I'd say something now before it sneaks up on everyone like the y2k bug.


I think you're right.
If new players stop coming at a steady rate, the economy will become stale and only rum and cannonballs will be in demand.
But even a slow trickle of new players will result in demand for the high priced items, since some will probably want to try their hands at running their own crew, colonizing a far of island or running a shop.

But since the plan is to allow some sort of free trail, I think there will always be a bunch of newbies bying a foil here and a hat there.
Your prediction will only come true if/when no new players come to these shore at all - and even if that began to happen, I'm sure like in every other mmog, the Ringers would add new content, to give us oldies something to spend our poe on.

 

I also think that ships need to be alot more expensive than they are now, and possibly make it so ships can only be commissioned by flag royalty or by sanctioned crew captains and officers in a flag, so that the number of crews with only one person running their own ship by themselves to trade and keep all the profits to themselves won't be too high.


(Silverbeard is lying. His new Galleon was VERY CHEAP... but yeah, to all other players the price would be in the range of a cheap shop. Not cheap at all.)

But the Ringers have said, that the solo experience should also be fun - I'd hate pricing to make solo-trading impossible.
I believe solo-trading should be viable - but harder than doing it with players. Right now it's the other way around. You only need other players while you're saving up for that first ship... and if you're in a large crew not even that.

I'm more looking forward to see the economy and everything be tweaked so taking out the huge ships would be feasible.
If it wasn't for the Ringers handing out free rum for training purposes, I'm quite sure my shipyard would never sell anything bigger than sloops.
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 29, 2003 8:00:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
Urganite



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I solo trade all the time :p but that's beside the point, I would hire jobbers but my crew doesn't allow it, and really, doing that puts me at a disadvantage since most other traders don't do it. I personally think that npp's should be removed from the game, swabbies first, then start phasing out the npp ships (except the navy ships and the skeleton ship of course :p mostly just the small sloop npp ships, maybe phase out more of the larger ships if the game population really does get that big). The game population is more than large enough to crew a ship with 3 jobbers and an officer in like a minutes or less.

As for larger ships, I think that they have fair prices, I'm talking about the smaller ships, like I've only been playing the game for like 6 days or so, and I already have about enough for a large sloop, and I only play a couple hours a day. That could be because I joined a trading crew and keep alot of the money for myself, but really, people join this game with the idea that they will get their own ship and be the captain, alot of these people join a crew and like where they are so they stop, but if I can afford my own ship in like 5 or 6 days, what kind of sense of loyalty do I feel for my crew? I personally will not quit my crew but I'm thinking that alot of people would, that's just my take on it. And if everyone is a captain, why bother even having crews? in my opinion, ships, like they are and were in real life, need to be the most expensive item any sea rover could get, and it should take weeks or maybe even a month or two from the time you commission it to the time it's finished just to keep people from having the "I'm gonna be a captain!" mentality.

edit: the reason I'm against solo trading or solo sailing period is because it really detracts from the multiplayer element, if I went solo all the time, I may as well be playing uncharted waters on my snes, the economic system for that game is vastly superior to the one in this game, and I've already sort of gotten bored of doing the puzzles, they're all pretty easy, I'm in it for the economy and politics.
[Jul 29, 2003 8:05:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Urganite wrote: 
edit: the reason I'm against solo trading or solo sailing period is because it really detracts from the multiplayer element, if I went solo all the time, I may as well be playing uncharted waters on my snes, the economic system for that game is vastly superior to the one in this game, and I've already sort of gotten bored of doing the puzzles, they're all pretty easy, I'm in it for the economy and politics.


Yes. But that doesn't mean everybody has to be.
A lot of players don't aspire to anything more than being officer in a good crew (and some not even that). Having access to ships and all puzzles and hanging out with their new ingame friends.

Others want to start their one-sloop crew after a week - why shouldn't they?
It's not like Blindpews two-sloop two-member crew is competing with the Mad Mutineers - who have numerous sloops and everything else up to a Merchant galleon - for new members.

Playing solo should be an option - but playing with real people should be more profitable in the long run.

I'm in a huge crew for the socializing aspects of the game (just like you, politics and economy keeps me here, not the puzzles). I also run my own trading crew, because trading in a huge crew is too much hassle. If the game gives me some of the tools suggested elsewhere (the ability to lock ships , etc.) I might just be in the one crew.
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Hanzii - shipbuilder (retired), Turtle
[Jul 29, 2003 8:40:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
Urganite



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well, I'll agree with your last point, I like the social aspects but I wish there were more crew administration features, and I also wish there was a commadore rank so that large crews can have multiple captains and captains can retain control of their vessels instead of just "oh, I'll use this one and you use that one"

as for small crews, I'm not necessarily against small crews, independents keep things interesting, but I'm worried when pieces of cloth are more expensive than an entire ship and a perpetual supply of free crew members for it. I think competition is pretty stiff as it is, I don't really think that the game needs about 1 in 5 players to go out and buy a ship and never hire any jobbers for it, it makes the game stale. I had a rough enough time joining any crew just for a one or two trip pillaging run, there needs to be more work for jobbers cause navy ships are boring, boring places if you ask me.
[Jul 29, 2003 9:14:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I think clothing would be the only thing at risk for the zero deamnd bottleneck, and once they introduce wear (which they have mentioned already) there will be steady demand with even a static population.

I'll have to go with Hanzii on this one . . . solo trade should certainly be possible, but less profitable than crew trading, if for no other reason than boat size and the crew needed to run it.

In terms of loyalty to crews . . . ye have to leave when the crew isn't right for you. We've hooked in a fair number of people who are in it for themselves, and then find they enjoy sailing with us enough to make forming their own crew with that character unattractive. They don't bleed Mutineer green, but neither are they as set on all-or-nothing individuality. Many of us have alternative characters that we use for secondary interests, as Hanzii does.

Hanzii, we raised the buy for hemp, has that helped at all?

For the rest, let's just see what they have in store with the next update.
[Jul 30, 2003 12:31:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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homullus wrote: 


Hanzii, we raised the buy for hemp, has that helped at all?



Can't say - depends on when ye did it.
People have been selling me brown cloth lately, which is new... and i haven't feel the need to go get you hemp myself in a while, because you've been full. So somebody is trading hemp... if yer not doing it yerselves.

But remember - I'm the one happy shopowner with a simple supply chain and hardly any shortage at all!

... well except that the darned 15 worker limit is creating a huge backlog in your shop. A batch of brown cloth takes days to get now, and if it wasn't for my own 170 employees, i wouldn't even dare to guess at the time people would have to wait for a ship.
(the shipyard limit is 45, so if i had 45 dedicated workers I think I could keep up speed... but prices would go up)

If those limits are here to stay, shopkeepers need a way to raise wages for those allready working for us. Without the need to fire/rehire.
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[Jul 30, 2003 1:14:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
Jethro



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I was looking to see about bringing some white cloth from Guava to Alpha. Buying white cloth in Guava costs 321 per lot of 10. The tailor on Turtle is buying for 30 per unit, which means I'd lose 21 poe even if I had a magic transporter that didn't use rum. Part of the reason I was looking on Guava was because I had been unable to find any white cloth in the diamond archipelago. At any rate, I found some white cloth at a reasonable price, but my point still stands for blue cloth, which goes for 1400+ per lot, but the tailor wanted it for 800.

Until the economy problems get sorted out, the producers of finished goods need to make their prices realistic. I understand you don't want to gouge people, but you need to make it worth people's while to be a part of your supply chain. Otherwise you won't have to worry about price gouging because there won't be anything for people to buy.

EDIT: I know what shoppe I'm buying at, really.
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Jethro - Officer of the Salty Mouthfuls
Jethykins - Cook of the Salty Mouthfuls and certainly not Jethro in drag. Oh no. Not at all. Nope.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jethro at Jul 30, 2003 4:43:31 AM]
[Jul 30, 2003 4:43:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    JGulner [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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I think you have things a little backwards. Shoppeowners have their main sources within the archipelago, and that sets the supply price. A shoppekeeper could set a price high enough to make inter-archipelago trading a profitable one, but that would be so much higher than the prices needed IN the archipelago (since you'd have to account for much greater rum usage) that people would just start trading like crazy within the archipelago because of the high profit, radically reducing the demand for those long inter-archipelago trips.

I'm also not sure you mean the weaver. Tailor?
[Jul 30, 2003 4:57:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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You're still not getting it Jethro.

There's a perfectly fine weavery on Turtle and another one on Alpha, why should it make sense to transport cloth from Guava, when tailors can walk across the street and pick it up?

White cloth is made from tellurium and hemp - both are avaliable in the diamond Archiplago, so no matter how the devs go about fixing the economy, it will NEVER make sense to transport white cloth from Guava to Alpha.
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[Jul 30, 2003 6:04:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Hanzii wrote: 
There's a perfectly fine weavery on Turtle...


Hate to go off on a tangent here, but what's going on exactly with the Turtle Weavery? I ordered Cloth from there almost two days ago and it still hasn't started yet.
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'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
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[Jul 30, 2003 7:02:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Hanzii



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Ok, 'perfectly fine' is a stretch.

(and this is going off on a tangent, as an example of Jethro's misunderstanding of the economy, it's s perfectly fine)

Would it have something to do with the managers not reading the release notes and firing all their extra employees?
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[Jul 30, 2003 8:14:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.lauring.net [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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She didn't fire all of them. I think the release notes did say something about eventually having to fire people in order to hire again, and Thusnelda took that to mean she was going to have to do it eventually, maybe even soon. So she did. That's what's going on.
[Jul 30, 2003 9:59:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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homullus wrote: 
She didn't fire all of them. I think the release notes did say something about eventually having to fire people in order to hire again, and Thusnelda took that to mean she was going to have to do it eventually, maybe even soon. So she did. That's what's going on.


Ah, OK... So the Turtle Weavery is running with only 15 employees? You brave souls.
----------------------------------------
Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
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