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Faulkston

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jmucchiello wrote: 
Faulkston wrote: 
jmucchiello wrote: 
Browser based Java applets cannot write data to your hard drive.

Surely they can write data (separate to the browser cache) if they have the correct security permissions?

By default, browsers do not grant those permissions. And the interface to grant such permission is different in every browser (assuming it's even an option). Sounds like a support nightmare to me.

Yeah, I noticed that having to accept security certificates was covered in the Runescape Technical FAQs.

jmucchiello wrote: 
 
There are more flaming hoops to jump through.

fixed.

Yes, heartily agree.

cmdrzoom wrote: 
"But I don't have enough for a WHOLE Ferrari! Tell you what: how about you give me the engine now, and I'll buy the other parts - wheels, transmission, seats, steering wheel, that stuff - as I need them? Trust me, you'd sell a LOT more Ferraris that way."

That's great!

Faulkston,
laughing
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[Jun 27, 2005 7:04:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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hmm, seems like the derailers keep hopping in, on a more serious note for a true web-based browser, some of the more cosemetic touches could be dropped ie. for starters use a uni-sex outfit with specific colors representing the better end clothing.
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"They'd already have the plank spank mark on their butts." Emerson, June 16th 2005
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[Jun 27, 2005 9:34:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DaneT

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Uni-sex?

Isn't everyone uni-sex?

Danet
Mind boggles
----------------------------------------
It has been said, my friends, that I like war. My friends, I like War. No...I LOVE WAR!

Danet - An old salt of Y!PP, but not the oldest by a long shot.
[Jun 27, 2005 9:36:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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what I meant was a suit of clothing identical for both sexes then with slight color differences to help illustrate the diversity of clothing in the downloaded client,
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[Jun 27, 2005 9:38:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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I think he means use a generic outfit (and a generic pirate too) while the streaming clothing downloads are taking place.

Faulkston,
streaming browser Y!PP game client - certainly possible to implement but likely not to happen for a while
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[Jun 27, 2005 9:39:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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not to likely but its fun to work out the general idea of what it would entail, you could consider along the lines of a more trial version so people(14 yearolds) don't run out of patience while waiting for the game to download. Incidentally it would benefit the mates among us who are constantly moving comps, I figure you probally could get rid of a lot of the coding size by elimanating or downsizing a lot of the extra graphics
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"They'd already have the plank spank mark on their butts." Emerson, June 16th 2005
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[Jun 27, 2005 9:41:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shagie



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Mogor - Try thinking about this the other way around...

First off, why do you want a browser based interface?

Secondly, what is the complete feature list you want the browser based interface to have? Should pirates walk around? Should you even see the avatars? How do you join chat circles? etc...

Do realize that the size of my puzzle pirates folder is 130 megs. Most of this appears to be artwork and information about islands.

A web browser cannot write stuff to disk without signficant opening of perssion by you. This either means no chaching of data (and much network traffic).

The amount of work to move the application into a browser enviroment would be a nightmare - and I'm speaking as a java coder here.

If you are asking for it to load faster, that won't happen - you still have to load everything and without saving the application to disk you'll be downloading several megabytes of class files just to start with and then tens of megabytes of images.

If you feel that this is a critical part of the game - to be able to play in a browser - I would encourage you to take the time to learn how to write a java applet and applications and donate several weeks of 40 hours a week to the ringers to help them implment this. If new artwork needs to be done... thats more time that needs to be spent.

If I read the page correctly, Three Rings consists of 9 people - thats including people like CEO, company controller, CTO and such.

Your request is for something that is very non-trival and very labor intensive that likely calls into question some key design assumptions made at the start.
[Jun 27, 2005 9:49:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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aye, I realize its on the bottom of the list I have mentioned that several times already, I'm just trying to figure out what the minimal game futures that could be included in a web based browser are, the whole reason for this section of the forums is to throw the ideas up and see what can be thrashed out, I doubt three rings will every go to the approach of giving in game credit for donated programing hours as I've seen some online games do. But ye can't blame me for thrashing out an idea that I feel has a fair amount of potential as a marketing tool for Y!PP
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[Jun 27, 2005 9:55:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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So in an effort to summarize whats been covered already in the thread:
1st We have mates who would like a browser option for stall management
2nd We have mates who would like a pared-down version with full play options
3rd We have mates who believe that this will take too much time away from other more productive programing functions

I think I summarized the discussion fairly accuarately, I apolgize if I missed something

As for me, option one would be a nice step in the right direction. Option two would be ideal in me mind, but I do understand that it will take a lot of work to get that done, but I can also see the potential it has in expanding the market of 3rings. In regards to the much programing that this would require, I've seen in similar situations where online games have given some of their players special high-prestiage items for assisting them with the testing
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"They'd already have the plank spank mark on their butts." Emerson, June 16th 2005
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[Jun 27, 2005 10:04:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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This is actually something that we have talked about.

- A full version is not at all practical for all the reasons outlined above, not least that it wouldn't be any faster to download and wouldn't work nicely on many machines.

- A very 'stripped down' version of PP in-browser in Java would be a big, big job.

- Java in the browser is a very sketchy platform these days. In most cases you cannot rely on the user having greater than Java 1.1, nearly decade-old technology. Modern users may have the 1.4 plugin, or may not. Giving it to them is hardly better than making them download the installer.

- We have thought about possible 'Window on the game' browser versions to give people a 'Play now!' taste of Puzzle Pirates -- for example, a new Puzzle ('swabbing') and chat on a ship, with server-side rendered portraits or scenes. Usually these discussions end up coming back to the point that any such window will be misconstrued as 'the real game' and therefore is likely to hurt conversion as much as help it.

- I like the idea of stall-management clients and, more so, a YPP buddy / chat application, but they don't really figure in our medium-term planning. There are just too many other fun things to work on.

- If we were to decide browser-based gaming was critical we would probably try to do something totally new and different in Flash. Arrrgh! The pain! But at least 90%+ people would just be able to play it, right there and then.
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Lord_Mogor



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thanks cleaver for the post, I had made a bet with a fellow officer in me crew that ye mates had already discussed this topic in private off-line and ye've just won me a nice new cutter
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[Jun 27, 2005 11:24:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Lord_Mogor wrote: 
I had made a bet with a fellow officer in me crew that ye mates had already discussed this topic in private off-line and ye've just won me a nice new cutter

Ensure that yer fellow officers don't read The List and keep making bets on the items within.

Faulkston,
you'll be laughing all the way to the bank, although in game this building doesn't currently have a function outside of Doubloon Oceans
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[Jun 27, 2005 11:30:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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aye, who did ye know that faulkston, I'm the officer in charge of looking through these forums and going through all the pop-tarts fairly frequently oh well their laziness pays off(especially since I'm giving up pillaging time to do this)

/edit Though even reading the list wouldn't have helped this mate out as this concept isn't on the list :( yet. Oh well I'll have to be reconciled to me ew cutter
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"They'd already have the plank spank mark on their butts." Emerson, June 16th 2005
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[Jun 27, 2005 11:36:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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Alright here's the final summary post of this topic. I'm doing it so its an easily viewable summary of whats been covered.

1. A web-based browser would open a whole new market to Three Rings
IMHO a web based browser would make advertising Puzzle Pirates at sites like MiniClips.com and Neopets.com much easier as the download part of the client is a large turnoff which can be demonstrated by the forums at either location
2. A limited version has higher demend right now
I've seen many threads wanting a way of "Checking in on their crews and stalls without having to actually log on the game itself, I personnally feel that this would be a nice step in the right direction but only a step,

3. Its not doable due to programing demends
Some option to deal with the programing needs of three rings are for these extra projects which aren't really top priority are: Give parts of the game code out for volunteer programerers to help translate into a flash format, the volunteers could be repaid throught special items that are high-prestiage but otherwise don't seriously affect game play

4. Not needed as 90% would use the download and install clientI feel that the actually numbers of mates who would if they had the option of a web browser would be significantly higher then 10%, I would also go as far as to say that a sizable number of new mates would be attracted to the oceans, due to the increased ease in accessing the game

Alright that wraps up me summary of this topic feel free to ice this topic if ye want, Mister OM
----------------------------------------
"They'd already have the plank spank mark on their butts." Emerson, June 16th 2005
Come join us forum tarts at M-tos.da.ru/yppforum/
[Jun 28, 2005 2:56:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shagie



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Disclaimer: I am not an OM. I am a professional programmer.

Lord_Mogor wrote: 
Alright here's the final summary post of this topic. I'm doing it so its an easily viewable summary of whats been covered.

1. A web-based browser would open a whole new market to Three Rings
IMHO a web based browser would make advertising Puzzle Pirates at sites like MiniClips.com and Neopets.com much easier as the download part of the client is a large turnoff which can be demonstrated by the forums at either location


The download of the application client would take essentialy the same amount of time as a download of a browser. Given the additional programing problem that client java versions are 1.1 and not 1.4 this means a signficant recoding to match the older APIs.

 
2. A limited version has higher demend right now
I've seen many threads wanting a way of "Checking in on their crews and stalls without having to actually log on the game itself, I personnally feel that this would be a nice step in the right direction but only a step,


There are several poe sinks that trigger on login (namely decay of goods). Being able to manage shops from a browser would be something that far less than 10% of the ocean would do - and would also make it so that one does not have to wisk to diffrent archs on Midnight. If ferry fees come back in, the associated poe sink there is reduced.

 
3. Its not doable due to programing demends
Some option to deal with the programing needs of three rings are for these extra projects which aren't really top priority are: Give parts of the game code out for volunteer programerers to help translate into a flash format, the volunteers could be repaid throught special items that are high-prestiage but otherwise don't seriously affect game play


Visit http://www.threerings.net/jobs/ - in paticular
Jobs wrote: 
Software Engineers: We have filled the full-time vacancy recently posted, but we remain interested in any part-time, remote contract developers with considerable Java expertise and a strong interest in contributing fun to Puzzle Pirates. Again, at least trying out the game is something of a requirement.


They are looking for people to hire, though not necessarly on this project. I am certain that if qualified people apply, they will be hired. And for real money too.

 
4. Not needed as 90% would use the download and install client
I feel that the actually numbers of mates who would if they had the option of a web browser would be significantly higher then 10%, I would also go as far as to say that a sizable number of new mates would be attracted to the oceans, due to the increased ease in accessing the game


Accessability is not necessarly increased if one has to download the client (even a striped down one) each time one logs in. Add in the problem that applets in clients do not get the same CPU resources as a proper application and performance becomes a major issue.

 
Alright that wraps up me summary of this topic feel free to ice this topic if ye want, Mister OM


Cleaver isn't so much an OM, but rather the CEO of the company that created Puzzle Pirates.
[Jun 28, 2005 3:35:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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only one thing in that post I'm going to comment on an thats the last little bit about cleaver, yes I know he's the CEO of three rings, I didn't think he personnally went around lockin threads, so I wasn't referencing him
/edit anyhow I was trying to wrap this thread up once an for all Mr.Nosey
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[Jun 28, 2005 3:39:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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If your summary is not accurate, others can and should correct your faulty conclusions. (That's what we've been doing for most of this thread.)
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Jun 28, 2005 3:44:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lord_Mogor



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In a way that doesn't attack the poster, only attacking the idea.
Almost quoting from some rules of conduct on the forum
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[Jun 28, 2005 3:46:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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The conclusions you have stated, and the assumptions you appear to be working from, are faulty.
Better?
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
[Jun 28, 2005 4:09:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jmucchiello



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shagie wrote: 
There are several poe sinks that trigger on login (namely decay of goods). Being able to manage shops from a browser would be something that far less than 10% of the ocean would do - and would also make it so that one does not have to wisk to diffrent archs on Midnight. If ferry fees come back in, the associated poe sink there is reduced.

While he's a little off on what he thinks a web-based applet could do, you are off here. Managing your shop off-line would only involve actions you can take in your shop. You would be able to place orders, set prices, deal with labor, read your register. If you need to walk out of the shop for something, you need to log in properly to accomplish it.

I wouldn't want the market bidding stuff to be available via web as this would eliminate the whisking around part of running a shop.
----------------------------------------
Colorbeard on all the Oceans
SO of Six Leagues Under (Midnight)
FO of SPAM (Cobalt)
[Jun 28, 2005 7:29:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
drc500free

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jmucchiello wrote: 
shagie wrote: 
There are several poe sinks that trigger on login (namely decay of goods). Being able to manage shops from a browser would be something that far less than 10% of the ocean would do - and would also make it so that one does not have to wisk to diffrent archs on Midnight. If ferry fees come back in, the associated poe sink there is reduced.

While he's a little off on what he thinks a web-based applet could do, you are off here. Managing your shop off-line would only involve actions you can take in your shop. You would be able to place orders, set prices, deal with labor, read your register. If you need to walk out of the shop for something, you need to log in properly to accomplish it.

I wouldn't want the market bidding stuff to be available via web as this would eliminate the whisking around part of running a shop.
True enough. And so long as logging in to the stripped-down client kept your pirate active, things would be fine. That would stop clothes from being preserved ? you wouldn?t really need to get the dusting message until you logged in to a client where you could wear them.
----------------------------------------
-Darvid
sundancer wrote: 
will you please explain to me one more time why it would not be acceptable to blockade us?
Squid wrote: 
Because I shouldn't have to go through all that effort.

[Jun 28, 2005 7:34:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shagie



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jmucchiello wrote: 
While he's a little off on what he thinks a web-based applet could do, you are off here. Managing your shop off-line would only involve actions you can take in your shop. You would be able to place orders, set prices, deal with labor, read your register. If you need to walk out of the shop for something, you need to log in properly to accomplish it.

I wouldn't want the market bidding stuff to be available via web as this would eliminate the whisking around part of running a shop.


Checking your price vs dockside prices across the entire ocean via browser?
Checking your prices vs comparison pices on that island?
Check the notice board for the wages other shops are offering?
Deliver items from queue to shop inventory?

On midnight, I helped manage shops in 3 arches - this took wisking potions to accomplish. With a browser manager I wouldn't need to wisk at all.

I would encourage you to go through and count how many distinct shop owners and managers there are and look to see how many people this would possibly benefit.

Consider also the 'fun' of two managers who are unable to talk to each other trying to accomplish seperate things. When each is trying to do something else massive headaches can result. When both are online you can at least talk to the other person (assuming the managers haven't muted each other).

An offline shop admin would
* give signficantly more information than the ringers want to give without a poe sink.
* benifit a very small population only for the work done
* create additional misunderstandings between manager policies.
[Jun 28, 2005 7:46:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jmucchiello



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shagie wrote: 
Checking your price vs dockside prices across the entire ocean via browser?
Checking your prices vs comparison pices on that island?
Check the notice board for the wages other shops are offering?
Deliver items from queue to shop inventory?

Did you read what I said? Only the second and fourth would be available. Only things you can do in your shop can be done via the discussed interface. I don't want to see market prices available on the web for the same reason you are saying.

And managing shops in multiple arches can already be done without whisking if you have crewmates who can step onto a boat anywhere in the arch and you just hop to the boat for free. I've checked market bids in multiple arches within a few minutes of each other with having to use any whisks before. The poe sink in not foolproof.
----------------------------------------
Colorbeard on all the Oceans
SO of Six Leagues Under (Midnight)
FO of SPAM (Cobalt)
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Astrolabe1

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- I like the idea of stall-management clients and, more so, a YPP buddy / chat application, but they don't really figure in our medium-term planning. There are just too many other fun things to work on.



Even more scaled-down, for the stall-management client, would it be possible to make some stall-info web-accessible, just the way tax info now is? (e.g. I got to http://sage.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/econ/taxrates.wm and see what current taxes on Sage are.)

Could there be a way (though it would need a log-in & password to get permission to view) to view a similar list of my stalls' current stock, coffers, and order queue? Sort of a similar "window on the database" to the taxrates.wm links?


To change any values or place orders I'd still have to log in -- but when I just want to check to make sure stalls are still stocked and running then I wouldn't have to do a full-fledged log-in (and thus demand server processing time I don't really need).
----------------------------------------
ASTROLABE

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My HWFO post
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fanta

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Note the bump.
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Pleun,
First Mate of Monkey Militia, TO in Carpe Noctem, Midnight ocean,
owner of the Dainty Dolphin and the Mystical Dragon.

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[Nov 12, 2005 9:32:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ye110boi

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I know absolutely nothing about how computers run on networks.

At school, I can use the internet as I can change the proxy settings in my browser so that It will work and then I change them back to dectect automatically when I get home.

If you ran YPP in the browser would it be able to connect?



Viera

Who tried in vain to follow the instructions in the post in tech issues for defeating the proxy.
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Viera, or V! - Lethal and Syncronised.
Thinking; out of the box.
Miss Antite wrote: 

I perceive a weak grasp of the entire situation to which response is not worthwhile.

[Nov 13, 2005 10:42:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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In the absence of a firewall/proxy, provided the applet had the correct security permissions, it could connect to the YPP! game servers.

Faulkston,
who doesn't like dealing with applet security permissions
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[Nov 13, 2005 10:55:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
ihope127



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Bump.

How hard would it be to package the puzzles themselves into Game Gardens thingies?
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No soy un número. ¡Soy un hombre gratis!
[Mar 28, 2006 7:19:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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Bump.

How hard would it be to package the puzzles themselves into Game Gardens thingies?


Hmm...

I'll take some guesses here:

First, the current game puzzles are two sided -- the server plays along with you, and scores your moves, to prevent protocol cheating. I suspect that archetecture isn't in the narya package in GG, but in the Yohoho package that's not part of GG.

Beyond that, the framework that the puzzles are written around assumes the yohoho client is in use.

That said, I'd wager that three days would be sufficient to make a GG port of the frameworks, and permit playing the games there.

Now, to make a GG port that could be publicly source released, without giving away the game/framework code? Probably two weeks.

Perhaps a better question: Why would they? They have limited free days to try to get people to pay to play. Why give the puzzles away for free all the time?
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"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
Why buy sham poo when real poo is so readily available

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ihope127



Joined: Mar 23, 2005
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I was thinking duty puzzles. If not Game Gardens, then some online version of them would be nice.
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No soy un número. ¡Soy un hombre gratis!
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