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Shuranthae

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Foilistc wrote: 
Sounds like you have no reason to comment on this issue, which has to do with more than the casual puzzle pirater cares about, if you're not a regular game player here.
Yeah, you go tell people who has a right to say what.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:02:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Barrister

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

I'm surprised no one has addressed the fact that Robertdonald used an Able-ranked alt for sinking PvP. I mentioned this in my post on page 5.
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Barrister
- YPPedia Administrator
- Looterati
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Barrister at Jun 6, 2005 8:02:53 AM]
[Jun 6, 2005 8:02:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
theosophyx



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

katiemac wrote: 
Foilistc wrote: 

RD didn't drive masses out of the game. Without his play we'll be bored as can be in the coming weeks.



Please don't presume to speak for Midnight on this subject. I doubt if even 1% of the players will notice RD has left the game for a bit.

If your game play hinged so much on one player's participation, then you will certainly need to reevaluate your desire to continue to play.

~~Katya
First Mate of No Quarter


That's pretty amusing, considering how so many pirates seem to feel that RD single handedly destroyed the game for them.
----------------------------------------
Jaarvus - Midnight
Ex-Governor of Ostreum
Officer of Dioses y Demonios
Kapow - Hunter
[Jun 6, 2005 8:03:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hoofhearted

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Cleaver wrote: 
I don't think that attrition has much of a place in a fun, social online game. Now, that's not to say that the game design doesn't make than obvious tactic, and for that I acknowledge fault.

Attrition is pretty much by definition griefing, as it relies on wearing down (primarily, esp. in the case of established Midnight flags who can field essentially bottomless resources) the enemy's will to fight. I've warned about using this kind of tactic, now is the time to send a clear message that it's not acceptable.


You seriously said that? I realize I'm speaking of a totally different ocean but are we really supposed to forget the first blockade weekend on Cobalt? 3 flags fielded fleets large enough to take the three islands OOO put up for blockade. Somewhere along the lines, OOO decided they had made a mistake putting these islands up. And the answer to "How do we (OOO) get ourselves out of this mess?" Simple, throw out brig after brig after brig until you had worn "down the enemy's will (and in this case, resources) to fight"! By your own actions, using attrition as a game tool is evidently within the rules and NOT against the "spirit of the game".

Putting this issue aside, I must disagree with banning or whatever it is you choose to call what you've done to Robertdonald. Like him or hate him, you have to respect him. To ban someone for not showing up seems petty. He remained within the "written" rules of the game but evidently either dislike for him personally or bowing to pressure from others weighed heavily in what constitutes "the spirit of the game".

Isn't the spirit of the game interpreted by the individual playing the game? To me, it may be running my little stall, talking to good friends, and pilaging brigands. For others, it may be owning an island, PvPing the entire ocean, causing havoc at every turn. To exile or ban someone for not living up to YOUR intent for the spirit of the game, when that intent isn't even written for all to see, is just plain wrong.
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Jakaubrey
[Jun 6, 2005 8:03:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Neph

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

I had a thought: If a whole flag did what RD "did" would the whole flag get banned becuase you cant show one punishment for one crime and one for another.

And in theory all of SS has to be banned? if not why should RD be banned?
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Neph On all Oceans :)
[Jun 6, 2005 8:03:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scottish

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Barrister wrote: 
I'm surprised no one has addressed the fact that Robertdonald used Able-ranked alts for sinking PvP. I mentioned this in my post on page 5.


Oh, you didn't realize? The ONLY reason they banned him was the no show two weekends ago.
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Scottish
Lord of Silver Dawn
Senior Officer of The Cartographers
Captain of Swillver Dawn, OCL Drinking Season 5 Champions
[Jun 6, 2005 8:03:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    ragingcoffee    Ishington    78378034 [Link]  Go to top 
rroberts



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

It's their game, they can do what they like.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:04:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chestertongrant.co.uk [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Foilistc wrote: 
The problem here is that the ToS aren't clear so who knows if he broke them. They aren't chisled in stone, and the Devs can make up whatever they want as an offense to ban someone. Perhaps that's the real design flaw, lack of ToS documentation and accountability.

It's been stated a few times in this thread (at least once by me) that it's not possible to chisel in stone all the reasons why you might want to refuse service to a player. Catch-alls are there for a reason. Hopefully they are exercised wisely.
 
If a war of attrition is a bannable offense, I would petition that Cleaver and his group take control of all islands immediately.

I have no time for this hyberbole. Read the post I made; attrition means wearing the other side down until they have lost the will to fight. The intent of the game is that it is a fun competition between the parties. More blockades that are fun, fair and challenging is fine and good. Repeated 'endless war' blockades and no-shows to grind down defenders is not acceptable.
 
I'm still waiting on some answer from Cleaver and Co. about what IS the spirit of the game. Where do you see the game going? What would it be like in a perfect world?

Fun. A better answer is outside the scope of this topic.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:04:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Foilistc

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

theosophyx wrote: 
katiemac wrote: 
Foilistc wrote: 

RD didn't drive masses out of the game. Without his play we'll be bored as can be in the coming weeks.



Please don't presume to speak for Midnight on this subject. I doubt if even 1% of the players will notice RD has left the game for a bit.

If your game play hinged so much on one player's participation, then you will certainly need to reevaluate your desire to continue to play.

~~Katya
First Mate of No Quarter


That's pretty amusing, considering how so many pirates seem to feel that RD single handedly destroyed the game for them.


List them here.
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I'm old. I don't look it but I'm beginning to feel it in my heart...
[Jun 6, 2005 8:04:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.carlknoch.com [Link]  Go to top 
Thusnelda

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

You're right. I don't really care about the game more than a trifle, given that I'm the longest continually-playing non-Ringer player to play the game. So yeah, you could say I'm pretty casual about it.
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Madam, proud Looterata
Why are old people playing on this game i dont know its probly something to do with control but its kind of werd. Get a life or a girl friend or mabe even a wife but if your an adult that plays this game your a loser
[Jun 6, 2005 8:05:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sir_turtle



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

i agree with the people that are pissed off at the exile of robertdonald.
it is a sad day for the puzzle pirate game and world.
i never thought id feel like quiting puzzle pirates but today i do feel that way. i always tell people i meet about pp and how great it is. i play pp so much that my playstation 2 and TV get no use.

one more thing- if there is gonna be such a thing as griefing ye better make specific rules on specific griefing so we all know what the rules are.
otherwise your just exiling or banning people at your own discretion and thats griefing in a way of its own

sirturtle :(
[Jun 6, 2005 8:05:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
theosophyx



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Barrister wrote: 
I'm surprised no one has addressed the fact that Robertdonald used Able-ranked alts for sinking PvP. I mentioned this in my post on page 5.


An excellent point, Barrister.

Although it's not exactly a great excuse, how many other pirates out there employ the same loathsome tactic? To date, I haven't heard of any pirates being banned for that specific behavior, although I would be happy to hear that the Ringers have no*W* made that a bannable offense.

EDIT: Thank you Lemur for pointing that out. It's odd how a single typo can make an actual impact on the post, rather than just being annoying.
----------------------------------------
Jaarvus - Midnight
Ex-Governor of Ostreum
Officer of Dioses y Demonios
Kapow - Hunter
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by theosophyx at Jun 6, 2005 8:07:30 AM]
[Jun 6, 2005 8:07:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rroberts



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Foilistc wrote: 
theosophyx wrote: 
katiemac wrote: 
Foilistc wrote: 

RD didn't drive masses out of the game. Without his play we'll be bored as can be in the coming weeks.



Please don't presume to speak for Midnight on this subject. I doubt if even 1% of the players will notice RD has left the game for a bit.

If your game play hinged so much on one player's participation, then you will certainly need to reevaluate your desire to continue to play.

~~Katya
First Mate of No Quarter


That's pretty amusing, considering how so many pirates seem to feel that RD single handedly destroyed the game for them.


List them here.

Stop posting silliness and make some structure to your argument. People will take you more seriously then.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:07:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chestertongrant.co.uk [Link]  Go to top 
Neph

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

thats what i also remember when i was a young pirate in the game i was always threatened by other pirates:

PVP me and ill get Shur to PVP you for weeks on end to make your life hell

and i always heard people say Shur will pvp you to prove a point isnt that griefing to beyond a point that screws the game up for people?
----------------------------------------
Neph On all Oceans :)
[Jun 6, 2005 8:08:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Karsh

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

sir_turtle wrote: 
one more thing- if there is gonna be such a thing as griefing ye better make specific rules on specific griefing so we all know what the rules are.
otherwise your just exiling or banning people at your own discretion and thats griefing in a way of its own

He's been warned a bunch of times before this happened, and from how it sounded, had actual conversations with Cleaver about them. I may not know the actual conversations, but I know enough to know that he was warned, several times. Other players are treated the same way. I don't see why they should change the rules just to make it more clear, when the OMs will clearly warn them in the first place.
----------------------------------------
Karsh -Hunter-
Captain of the crew The Salty Mouthfuls
King of the flag Pirates of the Blackmast
[Jun 6, 2005 8:09:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Karsh+on+Toast [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Could the Ringers please just save everyone the trouble and just right now ban anyone who claims to be leaving the game over this?
[Jun 6, 2005 8:09:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
SALemur



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

theosophyx wrote: 
To date, I haven't heard of any pirates being banned for that specific behavior, although I would be happy to hear that the Ringers have no made that a bannable offense.


Quick request for clarification, Jaarvus, my man. Should that "no made that" up there be "now made that" or "not made that"? I can't quite tell--and I want to be sure your point gets across.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:10:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Thusnelda

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Regardless of rules, people will always be clever enough to come up wth new and exciting methods of annoying other people. It's thrilling to watch!
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Madam, proud Looterata
Why are old people playing on this game i dont know its probly something to do with control but its kind of werd. Get a life or a girl friend or mabe even a wife but if your an adult that plays this game your a loser
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Thusnelda at Jun 6, 2005 8:10:49 AM]
[Jun 6, 2005 8:10:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
terimao



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

sir_turtle wrote: 
one more thing- if there is gonna be such a thing as griefing ye better make specific rules on specific griefing so we all know what the rules are.
otherwise your just exiling or banning people at your own discretion and thats griefing in a way of its own


I don't think that coming up with a list of all possible types of griefing scenario would really be a worthwhile way to spend the time involved. Rather, what would be preferable, would be a system in which there were blanket provisions and for the most part people used their common sense.
When common sense failed, they could be warned, and if they continued, that's when they would be banned.

Which, it seems to me, is exactly what happened here, based on what Cleaver has said.

Edit: spellling
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by terimao at Jun 6, 2005 8:11:04 AM]
[Jun 6, 2005 8:11:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
melissab

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Hmm..

A Blockade takes place when a Flag, or more commonly a coalition of Flags, tries to seize an island. A Blockade is essentially an extended, multi-party sea battle in which teams battle for domination of the map. Successfully blockading, and then ruling, an island represents the highest achievement of a Flag.

So.. after this achievement, you must defend if attacked, if you want to keep or try to keep your island.

 
Blockades may be declared from Fri 12:00 PM to Sat 12:00 PM


Would it be griefing is my flag decided to drop a chest when it was convienant for US to be there to fight? Are attackers suppose to care about the defenders and whats convienant for them? So what.. RD dropped at a time convienant for him.. I dont see ANYTHING in the rules saying you have to declare blockade between noon and when its convienant for the defenders. Maybe SS just really wants to be in Ruby.. and they really wanted Jorvik. Who cares.
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Onelove
Please support Boarding for Breast Cancer.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:11:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Neph wrote: 
thats what i also remember when i was a young pirate in the game i was always threatened by other pirates:

PVP me and ill get Shur to PVP you for weeks on end to make your life hell

and i always heard people say Shur will pvp you to prove a point isnt that griefing to beyond a point that screws the game up for people?
That was one of my points earlier actually. Not that anyone reads half the things other people say here anyway.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:12:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
2cucry

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Cleaver wrote: 
Celenborn111 wrote: 
It would seem that the Spirit of the game has been severely hurt by RobertDonald's removal in fact. Just as many (or more) upset pirates have posted here than the ones upset by RD's blockades, and just as many, if not more, have considered quitting the game as a result of this decision, the thing that the Ringers are trying to avoid.

At this point I may or may not become one of those pirates leaving in protest.

I fail to see that you have any statistical information that would be a basis for this statement.

In any case, leaving in protest at this decision is essentially saying 'I am going to leave in protest at the Ringer's ability to refuse service to players they think are griefing other players.' You would be better off trying to convince me that RD was not griefing other players (which is why this discussion thread is here) or conceivably to convince me we shouldn't refuse service to perceived griefers (but you are not going to convince me of this).


Well couldn't have put it better.. No one person can convince you otherwise.. And by a few ppl not renewing their Subscription (me for one) will not effect your decision.. Heck most likely 200 ppl canceling their subscription probably wouldn't change the outcome. However ideas have been thrown around in Game design forever. OOO encouraged more blockading, OOO to be fair made blockading only on Weekends, OOO took away "camping" so that ppl would sail more, and by adding the Treasure Drop you prolonged some of us staying but the game lacks adventure, and now lacks the competitivness of one of its better role players. The game also becomes less fun when it is perceived as a group of pirates have more control over OOO then the rest of the ocean. You can call banning/exile what ever, but what this did was weakened your game. Most won't leave because of this and give it a week and this thread would probably be thrown in the Locker. But correct me if i'm wrong, This is a role playing game? People can choose what type of character they want to be perceived as (with limitations of course)? How does it make sense to ban/exile someone then post it in the forums to "get feedback"? Does this make you feel better about doing it? The majority of people greifing are from RR.. To the rest, RD like him or hate him, he brought more excitement to this game which is now going to be a dull and boring game. So now they'll be no blockading until it's fixed? Or will the OOO allow Loots (dieing flag to begin with) blockade it back?

Enjoy !
----------------------------------------
Anderson

Captain of the crew The Bluenoser's
Admiral of the Navy

Matrix says
 
"if you really wanna be loved try beat andy in ANYTHING, please were running out of ideas"

[Jun 6, 2005 8:12:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dreams305



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Cleaver wrote: 

In any case, leaving in protest at this decision is essentially saying 'I am going to leave in protest at the Ringer's ability to refuse service to players they think are griefing other players.' You would be better off trying to convince me that RD was not griefing other players (which is why this discussion thread is here) or conceivably to convince me we shouldn't refuse service to perceived griefers (but you are not going to convince me of this).


I am leaving in protest, but you are being too narrow in saying 'I am going to leave in protest at the Ringer's ability to refuse service to players they think are griefing other players.' I know you've had problems with Robert before, and I know he has done as you asked. But for the half of the people who supported Robert's blockading tactics, you are not looking at that side without bias. This game has war in it. War is not pretty, people get hurt, albeit not physically so much in Y!PP. One side always loses.

Good job throwing out "King Griefmuffin." All Hail Cleaver, the man who griefed against Robert. (Looks like you won. gg)
[Jun 6, 2005 8:14:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
rroberts



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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

2cucry wrote: 
Cleaver wrote: 
Celenborn111 wrote: 
It would seem that the Spirit of the game has been severely hurt by RobertDonald's removal in fact. Just as many (or more) upset pirates have posted here than the ones upset by RD's blockades, and just as many, if not more, have considered quitting the game as a result of this decision, the thing that the Ringers are trying to avoid.

At this point I may or may not become one of those pirates leaving in protest.

I fail to see that you have any statistical information that would be a basis for this statement.

In any case, leaving in protest at this decision is essentially saying 'I am going to leave in protest at the Ringer's ability to refuse service to players they think are griefing other players.' You would be better off trying to convince me that RD was not griefing other players (which is why this discussion thread is here) or conceivably to convince me we shouldn't refuse service to perceived griefers (but you are not going to convince me of this).


Well couldn't have put it better.. No one person can convince you otherwise.. And by a few ppl not renewing their Subscription (me for one) will not effect your decision.. Heck most likely 200 ppl canceling their subscription probably wouldn't change the outcome. However ideas have been thrown around in Game design forever. OOO encouraged more blockading, OOO to be fair made blockading only on Weekends, OOO took away "camping" so that ppl would sail more, and by adding the Treasure Drop you prolonged some of us staying but the game lacks adventure, and now lacks the competitivness of one of its better role players. The game also becomes less fun when it is perceived as a group of pirates have more control over OOO then the rest of the ocean. You can call banning/exile what ever, but what this did was weakened your game. Most won't leave because of this and give it a week and this thread would probably be thrown in the Locker. But correct me if i'm wrong, This is a role playing game? People can choose what type of character they want to be perceived as (with limitations of course)? How does it make sense to ban/exile someone then post it in the forums to "get feedback"? Does this make you feel better about doing it? The majority of people greifing are from RR.. To the rest, RD like him or hate him, he brought more excitement to this game which is now going to be a dull and boring game. So now they'll be no blockading until it's fixed? Or will the OOO allow Loots (dieing flag to begin with) blockade it back?

Enjoy !

You're in the wrong game, and you miss the point entirely.
[Jun 6, 2005 8:14:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chestertongrant.co.uk [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Seriously, if the Ringers are going to be swayyed by subscription payment, why would they ban anyone at all, since that just ends up giving them less money? Do people maybe think that the Ringers envision something more from this game?
[Jun 6, 2005 8:14:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Neph

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Shuranthae wrote: 
Neph wrote: 
thats what i also remember when i was a young pirate in the game i was always threatened by other pirates:

PVP me and ill get Shur to PVP you for weeks on end to make your life hell

and i always heard people say Shur will pvp you to prove a point isnt that griefing to beyond a point that screws the game up for people?
That was one of my points earlier actually. Not that anyone reads half the things other people say here anyway.


Ok can you give me a page number and where cos i may have missed it i have read nearly everything but dont you think that you one of the Best navers in the ocean and PVP ers is just as griefing as blockading every weekedn (althought in my oppinion its not) if not worse? Have everytime you pillaged helled becuase the best naver in the game attacks you and messes your game up thats just fantastic
----------------------------------------
Neph On all Oceans :)
[Jun 6, 2005 8:15:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MKSparrow

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Shuranthae wrote: 
Could the Ringers please just save everyone the trouble and just right now ban anyone who claims to be leaving the game over this?


Hear hear.
----------------------------------------
Is it rainning?
[Jun 6, 2005 8:15:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Karsh

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

2cucry wrote: 
But correct me if i'm wrong, This is a role playing game? People can choose what type of character they want to be perceived as (with limitations of course)?

The manual of the box set of Y!PP puts this greatly (of course, it's not here with me, so have a summary of it):

You're not roleplaying a scandalous, blood-thirsty historical pirate, but rather a cartoony and fun-loving pirate, and using roleplaying as an excuse to grief isn't a valid excuse.

Or for a Dungeons and Dragons analogy, just because you're Chaotic Evil doesn't mean you can run around killing everyone, stealing every scrap of money you see.
----------------------------------------
Karsh -Hunter-
Captain of the crew The Salty Mouthfuls
King of the flag Pirates of the Blackmast
[Jun 6, 2005 8:16:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Karsh+on+Toast [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

melissab wrote: 
stuff that makes it sound like she hasn't been around for the last year or so

Have you not been here for any of this? The question isn't of when the chest was dropped. The problem is that the chest was deliberately dropped at an inconvenient time, and then the attack never even happened...for, what, the fifth time or so?

I'm trying not to get caught up in this whiny tartfest, but you're either completely ignorant of the issue or deliberately obtuse. In either case, I'd recommend reading any of a dozen threads on griefing blockades in the Game Design forum.

Notorious atteSmythe,
continually making bad decisions
----------------------------------------
 
Attesmythe receives loot: [Gauntlets of Social Responsibility]
Attesmythe receives loot: [Ring of Mandatory Selflessness]

[Jun 6, 2005 8:16:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
melissab

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Re: The Exile of Robertdonald

Neph wrote: 
thats what i also remember when i was a young pirate in the game i was always threatened by other pirates:

PVP me and ill get Shur to PVP you for weeks on end to make your life hell

and i always heard people say Shur will pvp you to prove a point isnt that griefing to beyond a point that screws the game up for people?


I was affected by Shur's tactics once before, last summer. Did it screw the game up for me? Nope! I was new to the game and had a seasoned player at my throat.. it taught me alot. Do I have more respect for Shur now? Maybe. I dont know him from Adam, just know how he treated my flag for things they were doing.. and I quickly changed them. So for that, I thank Shur. I wouldnt be the pirate I am now if it werent for the combined efforts of Shur attacking me and loading me full of holes, Nostradamus hunting us down and the forum tarts starting flame wars. Griefing can be taken in a positive way, if you see the picture that is.
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Onelove
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