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majestrate

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GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Dearest friends at GH, I'm posting to request that you consider a change to how you approach blockade closure requests when there is one flag spread across multiple islands (regardless of whether that flag is the attacker or defender).

While I appreciate, and agree with, the stance that if an attacker isn't active in a round, then the blockade should be ended, I do not beleve that it should be the only guidance being applied. In instances where a flag is dealing with multiple islands, I believe that for each round they win, they should be allowed to let one round go uncontested.

My reasoning is that in instances of multi-island drops, the strategy is normally approached from a holistic view, not a per-round, per-island view.

In my opinion, if the attacker has the round advantage (meaning they've won more than they've lost), the blockade should be kept open until such time that the attacker no longer has the lead (meaning a tie or the defender is ahead in rounds won). Once the attacker loses the lead in rounds won, they should be given 1 round to show that they are still contesting before the blockade is shutdown.

Example:

Attacker wins rd1 at Island A
Attacker focuses on Island B and loses rd2 at Island A
Attacker should be allowed all of rd3 to contest before the OM acts on any petition to end the blockade due to it being uncontested
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Oct 20, 2018 11:50:04 PM]
[Oct 20, 2018 7:14:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Nachodip_

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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I think in most instances they're too quick to close any blockade.

How about if a flag shows they're seriously contesting, as in continually jobbing and not just entering 1:2 to drain the other side ect, no islands should be closed unless they havent entered for 2 whole rounds.

The way they're currently closing them and even though I mostly like your idea I feel like it forces you into strategical moves that may not positively affect you.
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[Oct 21, 2018 2:46:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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I think in most instances they're too quick to close any blockade.

How about if a flag shows they're seriously contesting, as in continually jobbing and not just entering 1:2 to drain the other side ect, no islands should be closed unless they havent entered for 2 whole rounds.

The way they're currently closing them and even though I mostly like your idea I feel like it forces you into strategical moves that may not positively affect you.

How do you define "seriously contesting"? I don't believe flags should get an automatic grant of 2 rounds to no show.

It's not just a matter of draining materials/funds, it's also a matter of keeping blockades competitive and not having people get annoyed at feeling like their time was wasted because an opponent wanted to wait until the 3rd round to make an appearance.

This definitely isn't something that's easy to solve, there's a really fine line between premature endings (no innuendo) and encouraging grief-like behavior, maybe neither of our suggestions do well to better navigate that line?
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[Oct 21, 2018 6:10:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Nachodip_

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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As I said, you can define contesting by actively jobbing. So in the scenario you just said where a flag doesn't show up til R3, the blockades would already have been closed after R1 because I said you only get the 2 round pass if you actively job the entire time.
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[Oct 21, 2018 1:20:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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As I said, you can define contesting by actively jobbing. So in the scenario you just said where a flag doesn't show up til R3, the blockades would already have been closed after R1 because I said you only get the 2 round pass if you actively job the entire time.

But what if Notorious Fandango drops in round 2?
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[Oct 21, 2018 1:43:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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This definitely isn't something that's easy to solve, there's a really fine line between premature endings (no innuendo) and encouraging grief-like behavior, maybe neither of our suggestions do well to better navigate that line?


I think and easy fix to grief like behavior is to increase War Chest Requirements to come more in line with Kade Pay...

 
For outpost islands, the war chest is at least 25,000 PoE.
For medium islands, the war chest is at least 75,000 PoE.
For large islands, the war chest is at least 125,000 PoE.


even at a pitiful 1k per jobber and only a single WB with 20 jobber cost 20,000 per segment, and 100k for the round. I can't think of the last time 1k was the pay on active oceans. Most people who kade know its going to cost a minimum of 1M in jobber pay for just about anything other then a flag sit.

I would think a Minimum increase in War Chest of double could help however think 4x would be a larger fair deterrent. That is fair compensation to the flag for attacking and no showing, it will cover their ship moving cost ect. allso allows them to host some trash talking tournies with the MIA flags poe.

Add penalties, Grief Drop or no show: Resets every 2-3
1 Warning
2 Lose ability to drop chest for 1 month
3 Lose ability to drop chest for 3 months

EDIT increase it 10 x 40x would be better.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Oct 21, 2018 7:21:54 PM]
[Oct 21, 2018 5:01:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Nachodip_ wrote: 
As I said, you can define contesting by actively jobbing. So in the scenario you just said where a flag doesn't show up til R3, the blockades would already have been closed after R1 because I said you only get the 2 round pass if you actively job the entire time.

What does actively jobbing mean? If I am attacking 2 islands and I send 75% of my jobbers to Island1 and 25% to Island2, I might never send a ship into Island2 because I'm loading a WF, but I'm actively jobbing pirates onto the ship I intend to send in.

Filthyjake wrote: 
I think and easy fix to grief like behavior is to increase War Chest Requirements to come more in line with Kade Pay...

 
For outpost islands, the war chest is at least 25,000 PoE.
For medium islands, the war chest is at least 75,000 PoE.
For large islands, the war chest is at least 125,000 PoE.


even at a pitiful 1k per jobber and only a single WB with 20 jobber cost 20,000 per segment, and 100k for the round. I can't think of the last time 1k was the pay on active oceans. Most people who kade know its going to cost a minimum of 1M in jobber pay for just about anything other then a flag sit.

I would think a Minimum increase in War Chest of double could help however think 4x would be a larger fair deterrent. That is fair compensation to the flag for attacking and no showing, it will cover their ship moving cost ect. allso allows them to host some trash talking tournies with the MIA flags poe.

Add penalties, Grief Drop or no show: Resets every 2-3
1 Warning
2 Lose ability to drop chest for 1 month
3 Lose ability to drop chest for 3 months

EDIT increase it 10 x 40x would be better.

Disagree. Increasing war chest costs is not the answer. There are flags that are already hesitant to get into the blockade scene, increasing war chest costs is just one more reason for those flags to not bother dipping their toe in the pool.

Define a grief drop please.

Resets every 2-3 ? months? blockades? punishment 2 or punishment 3?

Also, what resets, the level you're at?
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by majestrate at Oct 22, 2018 1:01:39 PM]
[Oct 22, 2018 1:00:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Nachodip_

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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What does actively jobbing mean? If I am attacking 2 islands and I send 75% of my jobbers to Island1 and 25% to Island2, I might never send a ship into Island2 because I'm loading a WF, but I'm actively jobbing pirates onto the ship I intend to send in.


This is exactly my point. If you're on the NB and trying to job for an island (actively jobbing, if you will) but you've sen't 75% of your jobbers to another island and can't actually enter at island 2, why should they close the blockade on island 2?
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[Oct 22, 2018 1:48:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Define a grief drop please.

Grief Drop: A drop to annoy the apposing flag

 
Griefing refers to harassment of another player. In Puzzle Pirates, this includes sending abusive or threatening messages, stalking, and other forms of social abuse, but especially refers to in-game actions intended to cause pain and frustration, such as frequently-repeated PvP attacks on the same ship, nuisance blockades, etc.

Griefing is a violation of the terms of service
.

If a flag is seriously blockading they need to deposit a realistic war chest. When was the last time a contested kade cost 125k the war chest for a large.

100 jobbers @ 1k =100,000 poe per seg 500,000 per round. 1,500,000 for 3 rounds.

 
Disagree. Increasing war chest costs is not the answer. There are flags that are already hesitant to get into the blockade scene, increasing war chest costs is just one more reason for those flags to not bother dipping their toe in the pool.


Most kades pay a minimum of 4-5k per segment. I don't see where a reasonable war chest deters anyone as if they don't understand that its going to cost millions they shouldn't probably drop as they are not serious or have failed to math it out and again are not serious as they failed to think it through the cost of the kade.

 
Resets every 2-3 ? months? blockades? punishment 2 or punishment 3?

Also, what resets, the level you're at?



Yes, Months from the last offence. It hurts the game and the defending flag a fair amount to prep for nothing but a no-show.

I don't see why a flag should have to defend multiple rounds prior to closing the kade, the Increased war chest was a way to make the Attacker cover the pay that would be bleed from the defender as it is reasonable if increased where as it sits now. 125k isn't enough pay for a brig 20@1k=20k seg 100k a round and they have stock ship moving cost ect.... 25k barely covers the cost of a sloop for one round.

A NO-Show or Un Contested round should not be funded by the defenders expense, as the attackers use this as a bleed. Attacker pays much less then the defender for the one round and increasing it to multiple rounds increases the ability to bleed them.
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[Oct 22, 2018 2:43:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Sorry for the double post

Nachodip wrote: 
maj wrote: 
What does actively jobbing mean? If I am attacking 2 islands and I send 75% of my jobbers to Island1 and 25% to Island2, I might never send a ship into Island2 because I'm loading a WF, but I'm actively jobbing pirates onto the ship I intend to send in.


This is exactly my point. If you're on the NB and trying to job for an island (actively jobbing, if you will) but you've sen't 75% of your jobbers to another island and can't actually enter at island 2, why should they close the blockade on island 2?

They should close it because it's an uncontested blockade. Otherwise, I can just "actively" load a WF by only sending 1% of my jobbers to the ship at Island2 and all the rest to the ships at Island1.
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[Oct 22, 2018 3:15:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Sorry for the double post

Filthyjake wrote: 
maj wrote: 
Define a grief drop please.

Grief Drop: A drop to annoy the apposing flag

 
Griefing refers to harassment of another player. In Puzzle Pirates, this includes sending abusive or threatening messages, stalking, and other forms of social abuse, but especially refers to in-game actions intended to cause pain and frustration, such as frequently-repeated PvP attacks on the same ship, nuisance blockades, etc.

Griefing is a violation of the terms of service
.

FFS Jake. What constitutes a grief drop? If you don't understand what I'm asking, then we should just stop replying to one another.

Filthyjake wrote: 
If a flag is seriously blockading they need to deposit a realistic war chest. When was the last time a contested kade cost 125k the war chest for a large.

100 jobbers @ 1k =100,000 poe per seg 500,000 per round. 1,500,000 for 3 rounds.

 
Disagree. Increasing war chest costs is not the answer. There are flags that are already hesitant to get into the blockade scene, increasing war chest costs is just one more reason for those flags to not bother dipping their toe in the pool.


Most kades pay a minimum of 4-5k per segment. I don't see where a reasonable war chest deters anyone as if they don't understand that its going to cost millions they shouldn't probably drop as they are not serious or have failed to math it out and again are not serious as they failed to think it through the cost of the kade.

It is possible for flags to negotiate terms of blockading, part of which includes pay cap. You can also have ship size limits, ship quantity limits, and jobber caps. Blockades don't have to cost 7 million for 3 rounds for flags that are looking to try their hand at blockading to see if it's something they're interested in.

Discouraging new entrants into the blockade scene is bad for the game. Period. The result is a stagnant ocean where it's the same handful of flags blockading one another. To think otherwise is absurdly short-sighted.

maj wrote: 
Resets every 2-3 ? months? blockades? punishment 2 or punishment 3?

Also, what resets, the level you're at?

Filthyjake wrote: 
Yes, Months from the last offence. It hurts the game and the defending flag a fair amount to prep for nothing but a no-show.

I don't see why a flag should have to defend multiple rounds prior to closing the kade, the Increased war chest was a way to make the Attacker cover the pay that would be bleed from the defender as it is reasonable if increased where as it sits now. 125k isn't enough pay for a brig 20@1k=20k seg 100k a round and they have stock ship moving cost ect.... 25k barely covers the cost of a sloop for one round.

A NO-Show or Un Contested round should not be funded by the defenders expense, as the attackers use this as a bleed. Attacker pays much less then the defender for the one round and increasing it to multiple rounds increases the ability to bleed them.

In the arena of multi-island drops, it is inevitable that a round will go uncontested. And I don't think that's unreasonable. If I've won a round at Island1 and didn't do anything at Island2, I should be able to shift everything I've got to Island2 and let Island1 sit uncontested for a round.

If you do too much to shield island defenders, then you're going to have an ocean of island sitters, which is also a bad thing for the livelihood of an ocean.

Never thought I'd be speaking in favor of blockades, but there it is. How sad.
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[Oct 22, 2018 3:39:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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BLEEP Jake. What constitutes a grief drop? If you don't understand what I'm asking, then we should just stop replying to one another.


Really, I am unsure what you don't under stand but thanks for the convo you asked I tried guess you really didn't ask the question.
 

maj wrote:
Define a grief drop please.

Grief Drop: A drop to annoy the apposing flag


I am a aware flags can negotiate not sure when the last kade the cost less then 100k in jobber pay was even Event kades to be serious cost a fair amount but you know all. See ya Sunday.
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hidemyhoney

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Grief Drop is basically when an attacking flag drops a war chest on the Island, but doesn't bother to show up on the day.
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[Oct 23, 2018 5:07:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Grief Drop is basically when an attacking flag drops a war chest on the Island, but doesn't bother to show up on the day.

....

And what determines "not showing up"? No jobbing notice? Jobbing notice but not hiring jobbers? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, but not going onto the board? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, going onto the board, and sitting next to the safe zone? Etc...

I ask this because there is an enormous difference between a "grief drop", a "drop of attrition", and a multi-island drop. Letting one round, at one island, go uncontested in a multi-island attack is not griefing. Hence, "what constitutes griefing".
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[Oct 23, 2018 10:29:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Nachodip_

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Grief Drop is basically when an attacking flag drops a war chest on the Island, but doesn't bother to show up on the day.

....

And what determines "not showing up"? No jobbing notice? Jobbing notice but not hiring jobbers? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, but not going onto the board? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, going onto the board, and sitting next to the safe zone? Etc...

I ask this because there is an enormous difference between a "grief drop", a "drop of attrition", and a multi-island drop. Letting one round, at one island, go uncontested in a multi-island attack is not griefing. Hence, "what constitutes griefing".


Pretty sure OM's started considering drops based on attrition as grief drops a few years ago now

Edit: It's pretty simple.

A grief drop = Dropping on an island without the intent to win the island or the use of what would be considered malicious actions (purposely under jobbing/shipping ect as a means of attrition)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nachodip_ at Oct 23, 2018 1:49:11 PM]
[Oct 23, 2018 1:47:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
hidemyhoney

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Grief Drop is basically when an attacking flag drops a war chest on the Island, but doesn't bother to show up on the day.

....

And what determines "not showing up"? No jobbing notice? Jobbing notice but not hiring jobbers? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, but not going onto the board? Jobbing notice, hiring jobbers, going onto the board, and sitting next to the safe zone? Etc...

I ask this because there is an enormous difference between a "grief drop", a "drop of attrition", and a multi-island drop. Letting one round, at one island, go uncontested in a multi-island attack is not griefing. Hence, "what constitutes griefing".


They basically don't job, don't put up a offer, they don't even log on to contest just to stir up the defending flag to get up at a ridiculous hour to defend which creates mind games.
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Kyura94

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Example:

Attacker wins rd1 at Island A
Attacker focuses on Island B and loses rd2 at Island A
Attacker should be allowed all of rd3 to contest before the OM acts on any petition to end the blockade due to it being uncontested

I think the main issue with this example would be:
Even if Round3 gets closed due to NoShow, the defender of Island A had to fork out 2 rounds' worth of jobber pay, whereas the attacker only afforded 1 round. Granted, the amount wouldn't be a full 2 rounds' worth since there's no sinks and all, but the initial ships of jobber pay probably won't be trivial either.

While the intention (illustrated in this example) is to support the attacker who's involved in concurrent blockades, it seems like you're just shifting the burden to the defender. Or did I misunderstand something.
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[Oct 23, 2018 2:17:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: GH Policy Regarding Blockade Closures Reply to this Post
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Kyura94 wrote: 
maj wrote: 
Example:

Attacker wins rd1 at Island A
Attacker focuses on Island B and loses rd2 at Island A
Attacker should be allowed all of rd3 to contest before the OM acts on any petition to end the blockade due to it being uncontested

I think the main issue with this example would be:
Even if Round3 gets closed due to NoShow, the defender of Island A had to fork out 2 rounds' worth of jobber pay, whereas the attacker only afforded 1 round. Granted, the amount wouldn't be a full 2 rounds' worth since there's no sinks and all, but the initial ships of jobber pay probably won't be trivial either.

While the intention (illustrated in this example) is to support the attacker who's involved in concurrent blockades, it seems like you're just shifting the burden to the defender. Or did I misunderstand something.

Not looking to have the defender pay for no one showing up, but I believe there should be a policy that accounts for multi-island drops and allows the attacker to focus on competitive rounds instead of having to peel off 3 or 4 people to go sit on a mostly empty blockade board just to keep a blockade open.

Maybe Filthyjake's idea was right, but only when dealing with multiple drops. Like for each island that a flag drops on, there is a multiplier to the war chest? Leave the initial costs as-is, but attacking a second island in the same 5-hour window means the cost of the warchest goes up 10x, third island it goes up 20x, fourth island 30x, etc...
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[Oct 24, 2018 11:05:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Pretty sure OM's started considering drops based on attrition as grief drops a few years ago now

Attrition being a reason for grief drops was addressed 2004/2005. If memory serves, that was one of the reasons Robertdonald would do no show blockades (harrassment or not, unsure/don't care; attrition was one of the reasons he stated for doing it, fairly certain).

 
Edit: It's pretty simple.

A grief drop = Dropping on an island without the intent to win the island or the use of what would be considered malicious actions (purposely under jobbing/shipping ect as a means of attrition)

What I'm saying is that if a round is won, that should demonstrate the intent to win the island and the defender should not be able to request a blockade be ended because the attacker focused on a different island for the second round.
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