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Filthyjake

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And the over complication of a simple idea begins


my response was to someone else and others who were worried about it replacing the players. I am all for ultimate stationers I much prefer a game that doesn't require me to play with others, but does offer it as an option.

This is clearly very simple OP said, I won't get into the fact that the other 9-10 pages are also super simple my apologies if my thought was to complex.
 
Now that OOO has given us extra swabbies, it's time to move onto a related topic: Skilled/unlimited Swabbies! (which I will just call skilled swabbies from now on) I'll start off this post (attempting) to explain the main hesitation that OOO will not give us skilled swabbies and then i'll try to explain the pros of having skilled swabbies and the manner in which they should be utilized and then finally I propose 2 ideas that I have come up with. So the perceived reason that skilled swabbies should not be introduced is that OOO strives to have a community that is highly player interactive and team oriented. Giving the community skilled swabbies would go against this philosophy as it would be possible to access much of the content without relying on others. While this is a noble pursuit, it should be secondary ensuring the gameplay for the current players. The reason that skilled swabbies are needed is that PP requires a certain player base structure which has not existed in the past few years and which it seems it will be unlikely that PP would ever attain again. This structure is nothing different from your own <insert your home country here> society, but is beautifully depicted in the well-known and well-documented Indian caste system As shown in the image above, the Caste System is pyramid shaped, which means there biggest group on the bottom are the unskilled workers (in PP known as greenies) and as you move up the pyramid, the groups get smaller and they are more educated/skilled. At the top are the priests(in PP known as the elites) We can deduce this is the system that OOO envisioned because of the setup of crews(OOO clearly wants there to be different classes) as well as the navver-jobber ratio needed to run a ship (especially the big ones) In the beginning of Puzzle Pirates, this structure was easy to achieve as people were constant numbers of new players joining the game were filling in the bottom of the pyramid and a small subset of the players (probably beta testers) were at the top. As older players retired, there were new ones there to "move up" in the system and become part of the top group and new players kept the bottom strong. But as the years have gone by, the structure has been changing and the structure that PP currently sports is actually an upside down pyramid with a large amount of elite players and only a small number of greenies. This structure simply does not work as most people know, it now takes a long time to load a ship and sometimes it is impossible. Since we are unlikely to get a new influx of players (we have exhausted all options after introducing PP on steam and the tablet) and since players cannot move down the pyramid like in real life, this is where skilled swabbies come in! They will restore the player base structure to what is ideal for PP and act as the lower part of the pyramid and allow the players remaining (a high percentage which are considered "elite" or at least in the upper echelon) to play the game optimally and access all the content that PP has to offer. So, the Purpose of Skilled Swabbies is not so that each of us can go off in our little corner, do whatever we want on PP and never have to interact with anyone at all, but rather to ensure that the players remaining will be able to play the game as intended Now that we established that, let's go onto some ideas. Idea 1: Build-a-bot. Currently, the only shops you need to run a ship are SY, Distil, and IM. This attempts to bring the other type of shops into the equation and providing more "sinks" for certain items. So in this method, you start by building a "Blank Bot" in a Furni. Next, you need to dress up the dummy with clothes. The type,age and color of clothes that you dress on the dummy will determine the level of stats of the skilled bot that is produced at the end. It will be called "Clothed Bot" Finally, you need to use a potion, produced at the apoth, to summon it to life! As you can see, this brings a regular "consumable" to the apoth/furni which previously did not have one. This also provides another "sink" for clothing (especially the clothing that is given out from chests), something which I thought was needed as clothes degrade way too slowly for the tailor/weaver to have any consistent non-luxury business. Idea 2: The Dobby method This idea actually came up when I was watching Harry Potter. So, in this method, you go up to a regular bot already on a ship. When you click on the head, one of the options will be to "Give Clothing" Just like in the other method, the age/color/type that you give it will determine how "skilled" it becomes. This is like the former option except that it only requires clothes and probably less interfaces to design. Commons to both Ideas: -Skilled bots consume a lot of rum (rate to be determined) -In an environment with chests, they receive a portion (number to be determined) of the chests. -Skilled bots count toward the total number of players on the ship, but do not count toward the swabbie cutoff level. For example, if you are on a sloop with 4 bots and you convert one to a skilled, another regular bot will come on the ship. If you summon a skilled bot, one of the regular ones will not leave. -As these new skilled bots need to be distinguishable from regular bots, these new skilled bots should have special adjectives that are reserved just for them. (Possibly special names too?) (This is a complicated one that is unnecessary but I think it's kind of cool) -To simulate real players, Skilled bots are not as obedient as regular bots and can only be ordered to gun/not gun. Otherwise, they will take an open sail/carp/bilge at random (they will have an equal probability of taking any open station, so if there are 5 free sails, 4 free carps, and 1 free bilge there is a 50% chance it will sail, 40% chance it will carp and 10% chance it will bilge). However, these guys can be convinced to change stations by clicking on their heads and paying them 100 poe (like the Old salt in the inn). The skilled bot will abandon the station and it will again choose a station at random using the method described above. This means there is a chance it will take the same station again and so you may have to pay it a few times before it gets to the station that you want it to. Difference in the 2 ideas: When entering a closed environment (SMH, blockade, flotilla, IO )In the Dobby method, you can only convert when a bot replaces a human player(which occurs every 3rd time). In the "Build-a-bot" method you can replace every person with a skilled bot as soon they leave. The Dobby method means that the skilled bot only has "1 life". In the build-a-bot method we could set the number so it has "x number of lives" There are more aspects and fine details that have to be ironed out if they are implemented, but that's the general gist of what I have. If anyone would like to comment on anything i've said above or have their own ideas, Please share, and I would provide feedback to any ideas that are given.

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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Jun 28, 2018 9:31:08 AM]
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Kyura94

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Release_2018-07-02 giving us more swabbies. Not perfectly fitting the thread title but it's a step towards what some have been advocating for. Curious to see how things evolve.
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[Jul 2, 2018 9:22:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

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Release_2018-07-02 giving us more swabbies. Not perfectly fitting the thread title but it's a step towards what some have been advocating for. Curious to see how things evolve.


It's a step in the right direction. This is probably enough to make big-ship pillages viable again; it won't help much for anything sinking though (atlantis/flotilla/HS). I'm cautiously optimistic that it'll branch into something even better when we see the results of this "test".
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Strider399 at Jul 2, 2018 9:41:16 AM]
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joshuawhelan

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Sounds like a great change, people will be more willing to take their boats out now!
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patgangster

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I'll give it 2-3 days until everyone has tried it and realises full-ship full-swabbie pillaging is awful payout and possibly easy sinks by enemy factions.

...That said, at least you CAN use the bigger boats decently now if you want to, solid change.
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majestrate

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Fully staffed by swabbies should only be available to ships configured for Pillaging, Flotilla attacks, and Sea Monster Hunting. Trading, blockading, and evading should not be altered (meaning they get the soon-to-be previous swabby counts).

If this is already the plan, then disregard.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Jul 2, 2018 10:40:58 AM]
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Grinfish

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Not sure where their figures came from, but a few example swabbie counts post-release:

Sloop: 4
Cutter: 6
WB: 13
WF: 32
GF: 45

Is it perhaps a poor description, and swabbies just stay aboard when pirates hop on, up until stations filled?
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Cronus
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Currently, some vessels are receiving less than the new intended number of swabbies. This issue will be fixed when the oceans restart in the morning.
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etieti

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Currently, some vessels are receiving less than the new intended number of swabbies. This issue will be fixed when the oceans restart in the morning.


Is it intended to work only as far as pillaging/moving stock goes?

Pretty sure everyone was looking forward to try the bots in flots and SMHs!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by etieti at Jul 2, 2018 12:20:48 PM]
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Cronus
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This change applies to everything except flotillas, SMHs, and blockades.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Cronus at Jul 2, 2018 12:25:37 PM]
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Robyns090

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Release_2018-07-02 giving us more swabbies. Not perfectly fitting the thread title but it's a step towards what some have been advocating for. Curious to see how things evolve.


I'm curious to see how this works after the reboot. I presume guns wont count as a station and I'd be interested to see if any of the swabbies have stats above able.
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hidemyhoney

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Not sure where their figures came from, but a few example swabbie counts post-release:

Sloop: 4
Cutter: 6
WB: 13
WF: 32
GF: 45

Is it perhaps a poor description, and swabbies just stay aboard when pirates hop on, up until stations filled?


Most likely they'll stay aboard until more people hop on, it would be good to finally have enough swabbies for the WF, especially the GF which has a better chance for stock moving as well. I think WF as 32 is fair same with the GF.
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Support Sov! and I miss Jake :(

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Filthyjake

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Stock moving just got easier, good improvement!
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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patgangster

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Might be a bit of a low sample size but... Pillaging just got a lot worse.

Please give us an option to not have these new swabbies on a pillage. I just got on a Baghlah pillage first thing after the reboot that enabled them, and it fills up to 17 (!) with swabbies. You typically don't want to fill your boat up that much (keep enemy ship sizes down a bit, there were people in the past who specifically ran 9-person baghlah pillages because that's all the humans you need to run a baghlah decently and it resulted into better payouts), they all take their shares of the booty which makes it near impossible to get a good payout. Not to mention all of them come back whenever you job someone or leave a battle with your job offer up.

(I also feel like the game is tuning enemies to expect you have these swabbies, even when you don't. We got attacked by a red xebec in the wild seas earlier for a 10v22 fight, but they were weak in the fight, suggesting they expected more, but a weaker average of players on our boat. Initial payout split for this battle was below 1k. The battle after was a 13v24, again with weaker than usual in fray enemies. Again a red, though it was orange when we regained our swabbies)

edit: Just ended up fighting a BK, 14+3 swabbies vs 40 on a xebec. Enemy numbers were DEFINITELY not anywhere near this high before
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by patgangster at Jul 3, 2018 6:10:04 AM]
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Kyura94

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edit: Just ended up fighting a BK, 14+3 swabbies vs 40 on a xebec. Enemy numbers were DEFINITELY not anywhere near this high before

I got quite the opposite problem on my solo WF. BK expo was suspiciously blue. "Hmm. The game couldn't have given me a black ship expo. I'll proceed."




(You may need to refresh this page if the gif is choppy).
Enjoy:

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I made an in-depth Distilling guide here, and a guns one somewhere.
I gave Obsidian their Owls c:
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ladythmpr

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Please give us an option to not have these new swabbies on a pillage.


I just did my first post-increased-swabbies solo commod ship move, and was pretty astounded at how many swabbies I got when I hired swabbies. And I went, "holycrap, this is going to cost much more rum now!" when I already run on bare profit margins, and I have pretty much figured out out to do the solo runs well on 6 swabbies on a MB. And then I remembered a swabbie option that I haven't used since swabbies had variable fray skills: Fire this Pirate. It's on the Order wheel when you left-click a swabbie, Voila, I fired all but 6 swabbies, and then sailed per usual.

It might be nice to be able to specify how many swabbies I want when I hire swabbies.
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patgangster

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Firing them is cool when you're solo, but when you're actually pillaging, all the swabs come back every time you end a battle with a job offer up, or someone hops on your boat, or leaves your boat, or you (re)post your job offer.

(Plus my last point about the enemy spawning acting like you have them when you don't - not sure if it's true since sample size is small, but it did feel like that)


(also do swabs even use rum)
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ladythmpr

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Firing them is cool when you're solo, but when you're actually pillaging, all the swabs come back every time you end a battle with a job offer up, or someone hops on your boat, or leaves your boat, or you (re)post your job offer.

(Plus my last point about the enemy spawning acting like you have them when you don't - not sure if it's true since sample size is small, but it did feel like that)


(also do swabs even use rum)


What you say above is why it would be nice to be able to specify the maximum number of swabbies you want.

And yes, swabbies do use rum. Not as much as a pirate, but not nothing (it takes 2 rum to run a MB 4-5 LPs with 6 swabbies). With *18* swabbies, which is how many swabbies I got when I hired swabbies for my MB, I would expect an increase in rum use.
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Princess, Crimson Tide, Cerulean

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Robyns090

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Please give us an option to not have these new swabbies on a pillage.


After having played a bit with this I agree. Swabbies are very unreliable in SF or rumble. I've had a few instances where I have max - 0 another ship them my swabbies have just failed. I think this might just be down to the number of Swabbies, I dont know.

I'd still like some of the swabbies to have some stats like they use to. Perhaps a better option would be more swabbies than previously, but less than now but a few of the swabbies have basic stats of 1 or 2 stations of between distinguished - respected.

Overall I approve of this change, its going in the right direction but definitely needs some improvements.
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majestrate

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edit: Just ended up fighting a BK, 14+3 swabbies vs 40 on a xebec. Enemy numbers were DEFINITELY not anywhere near this high before

I got quite the opposite problem on my solo WF. BK expo was suspiciously blue. "Hmm. The game couldn't have given me a black ship expo. I'll proceed."

(You may need to refresh this page if the gif is choppy).

Oh man, as a 3rd party that's pretty amusing. Sorry that it happened but thank you for testing it out to see what happens. Hopefully it's only minor tweaks to the code to resolve this (if it is an unintended consequence of the swabby change)
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joshuawhelan

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Further proof that might ring calculation needs to be completely redone; especially on the PvP-oriented Obsidian.
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Filthyjake

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The Swabies are fantastic for moving stock, GF can now be soloed, Just did a run seems like the rum was 4 rum per LP ran out wasn't a problem, got engaged dissed wiht out rum could not get up to speed again but over all I love it for stock moves no more mb's are the new cutter, MGs will be easy enough if one doesn't want to do GF loads.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
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Robyns090

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After having played a bit with this I agree. Swabbies are very unreliable in SF or rumble.


Just did sloop solo vs Fanchuan. which was 6 vs 9. Got Max - 0 lost, enemy had 3 swabbies left. re-enaged Max - 0, exact same result....
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hidemyhoney

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I did testing myself and I kind of want to agree with triplepat, the swabbies with anything smaller than a WB didn't need the swabby change, only the Merchant Galleon and bigger needed extra swabbies. Since Merchant Galleon only had 8 which was kind of ridiculous unless you knew how to move them. While the Xebec/War Galleon had about 30-35 swabbies which I think was a bit too many, I think if you go back towards how many swabbies were used for swabbie transport, I think those numbers would be absolutely fine. Yes swabbies do take rum, after 2 GF battles I used up around 50 rum. I think for the WF should be around 32 swabbies and the GF around 50 since they would be sailable with those numbers. Updates needed as well to put everything into line with BK spawns/TH/Forage/Pillage Spawns etcetc.
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Support Sov! and I miss Jake :(

Bring the positives from obsidian ocean to main oceans!

Idk why people use alts to be relevant bashing everything.......
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Yeah... solo trading: what real use is rum anyway? Do swabbies do worse than Fine when they're sober? Does it cut into your sail power for evading on the Sea Battle board? Not seeing a problem with just going entirely rumless at this point.

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wrs1864b

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Yeah... solo trading: what real use is rum anyway?

Uh... You clearly haven't done much trading...

yes, rum is critical with swabbies if you are going any distance... at least a handful of cbs is really important too.

This is change is, basically, a huge boost to daily fruit foragers and only a handful of other cases. It is a big step toward GH just selling PoE.
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Filthyjake

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This is change is, basically, a huge boost to daily fruit foragers and only a handful of other cases. It is a big step toward GH just selling PoE.


I think dubs is how they sell poe this just makes it so people can play the game with out people if they wish. Its not even been out a week and people are against it. I have moved stock and ran a short pillage I find them great.

Now someone can take out a WF on Meridian if the want. Struggling to find a down side, sure it would be nice to set your crew size and maybe that will come, who knows perhaps maybe they will be skilled some day soon too.
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Re: Total abstinence is a virtue Reply to this Post
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This is change is, basically, a huge boost to daily fruit foragers and only a handful of other cases. It is a big step toward GH just selling PoE.

I think dubs is how they sell poe

SIGH

no.

Trading dubs for PoE on the exchange does not create PoE. For example, when Obsidian was new, there was so little PoE on the ocean that one dub wasn't worth much PoE. If GH just sold PoE, the rate would be fairly constant, like the price of fruit is fairly constant.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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LJAmethyst

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Re: Total abstinence is a virtue Reply to this Post
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Yeah... solo trading: what real use is rum anyway?

Uh... You clearly haven't done much trading...

yes, rum is critical with swabbies if you are going any distance... at least a handful of cbs is really important too.

This is change is, basically, a huge boost to daily fruit foragers and only a handful of other cases. It is a big step toward GH just selling PoE.


I always traded with humans, not swabbies. I felt it was not only useful to fend off well-equipped attackers, but also a boon to the economy by distributing wages to people who could spend them. Wages to employees should always be a primary consideration in any business; all too often, the logic goes "how can I acquire a legion of slaves and stiff them out of their fair share?" Ergo, thus is born labor alts and solo trading.

It would stand to reason that swabbies are affected by rum sickness, due to actually using rum on their own. This is not mentioned in the YPPedia article.

But given the generous allocation of extra swabbies now, will their rumsick degradation of duties prevent the ordinary trader from getting there in one piece? I can definitely see where it would be a disadvantage to Duty Navigation by the human player, vs. an attacker.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by LJAmethyst at Jul 3, 2018 7:09:12 PM]
[Jul 3, 2018 7:07:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Skilled/unlimited swabbies Reply to this Post
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Might be a bit of a low sample size but... Pillaging just got a lot worse.

Is it just me, or did this somehow make the routes harder?

I've been solo pillaging for a while, when either the notice board is full of other ships and I don't want to fight for jobbers, or when I'm doing something that takes some of my concentration and don't want to give less than my best battle nav to jobbers.

Anyway, recently, on a route that used to spawn green or green-shading-to-yellow enemies (Sayers to either Marlowe or Doyle, on Emerald), I've been spawning orange ones. Was this an intended change?

 
I just got on a Baghlah pillage first thing after the reboot that enabled them, and it fills up to 17 (!) with swabbies. You typically don't want to fill your boat up that much


Yes, please. I run junk pillages with everyone who applies. I'll sail with two other humans on board, so that my jobbers don't get bored. Three humans is a break-even-at-best proposition, but I find that early sailing means that I keep my jobbers happy, and I take the risk in hopes of adding a few more people before we get engaged. Adding a bunch of swabbies means that I can't leave quite so quickly, since three humans and 15 bots are going to lose a lot of fights; I can't risk getting engaged without more humans on board.

With our current swabbie skill levels, about 2/3 stations full seems to be the right number to me, to balance needing those stations full, while still not crippling the ship's ability to do melees.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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