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majestrate

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

And I see dnav, in this environment, as nothing more than a specialty. Similar to gunning or high-end carp/bilge/sails, "egging"/foraging/SF'ing in the various SMH's, or bnav in blockades.

 
Ah, another former resident of Paragon City! Greetings from Doc Scorpion of Freedom! I don't recall any challenges in PvP zones, but I stayed out of them unless a mission took me there. (Got into a PvP fight with one of my controllers once. Taught an idiot that attacking a controller's pet rather than the controller was stupid. Had to teach him four times before he went away and stopped bothering me.)

I had left the game for a few years and was very sad when I tried to return, only to find out that it had shutdown. DCUO is not even close to being as enjoyable as CoH.

Anyway, while there was the PvP zone (never went there), IIRC, you could also challenge 1v1? The latter is what I would say is the better option. I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Oct 19, 2017 11:32:11 AM]
[Oct 19, 2017 11:31:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Oh, was that the grand sum of that statement? I was still trying to figure out why he was giving suggestions that did nothing with regard to the problem. Now I see that he was saying, "Just don't lose." Which is a shallow and arguably immature counter; nobody is perfect, and even the best will lose once in a while.

I don't even know what to say to such a sophomoric post.
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[Oct 19, 2017 11:35:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Just to throw in my two cents...

I don't see why this is such a big deal. Whether you are soloing, trading, or pillaging, it is not difficult to run away from another ship of similar might. Duty navigation provides an avenue for avoiding PvP encounters entirely, but even once you get engaged 10 turns to disengage isn't much trouble.

A situation where someone is disengaging but continues to be hounded by a PvPer (multiple engages) is not something new to YPP, and has always been considered griefing after a point.

I think it is entirely reasonable for the Greywaters to serve as an area for newer players to learn how to run a ship in a "safe" non-sinking environment. Once they have learned to man and run a ship, then they should feel comfortable sailing anywhere with the knowledge and comfort that they can disengage from any PvP they may get caught up in.

Am I missing something about the fundamentals of battle navigation and ship management? If anything it became easier to solo or run a ship undermanned when they gave every ship an additional bot a few years back.
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-Elbee on Hunter, Sage, Viridian, and Malachite
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by elbeejay at Oct 19, 2017 12:34:51 PM]
[Oct 19, 2017 12:34:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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To me "hire a better dnaver than you if you suck at it" isn't essentially different from "go play on another server or don't play if you don't like it". It's telling me "you must alter how you play or be prey and be sunk", and that's unacceptable.

And I see dnav, in this environment, as nothing more than a specialty. Similar to gunning or high-end carp/bilge/sails, "egging"/foraging/SF'ing in the various SMH's, or bnav in blockades.


Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?


Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.


Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.
[Oct 21, 2017 7:14:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.


And the ones who are, are also fully aware of potential economic abuses, and proposed potential solutions to that as well.
[Oct 21, 2017 8:10:56 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?

Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

You don't need an Ult/Leg/GM duty navigator any more than you need an Ult/Leg/GM gunner. But you go ahead and keep blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.

 
Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.

Again, the thread is not "address sinking", it's "remove PvP". Devonin has made that quite clear.
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[Oct 21, 2017 1:02:22 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Ah... so those us of us who aren't dialed into the social puzzle (and thus have access to high level dnavers) or who aren't lucky on the jobbing board (and don't have a higher level dnaver apply) are simply screwed then?

Or, to put it more simply, hiring a high(er) end dnavver isn't easy for most of us - and thus doesn't represent a solution.

You don't need an Ult/Leg/GM duty navigator any more than you need an Ult/Leg/GM gunner. But you go ahead and keep blowing this whole thing out of proportion.
 
I don't know how you would handle a PvP-free zone in PP:DS or even in YPP. There would be merchants who could operate with zero risk. Not a good idea, regardless of how many people think it is.

 
Most people in this discussion who object to the PvP situation object to sinking, not to PvP in general. Very few people are trying to eliminate PvP overall.

Again, the thread is not "address sinking", it's "remove PvP". Devonin has made that quite clear.


Again, this thread is "Discussing ways to allow specific people who don't want to PvP to opt out of PvP" not "remove PvP" Devonin has made THAT quite clear.
[Oct 21, 2017 2:52:49 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jolyma

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Honestly, the Dark Seas server was advertised as a PvP ocean from the start. They included a non-sinking area for people who don't want to risk PvP. They altered the dnav puzzle years ago as a way for people to avoid PvP. Most people don't attack full ships, because it's a grind when both ships can constantly churn out moves. So you're options are stay in the non-sinking area, dnav, or use a full or close to full ship..

The whole point of Dark Seas was to give the masses what they want. The masses wanted a point for PvP. To be able opt out of a major part of the game, on this server, is not a good idea.
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[Oct 21, 2017 3:11:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mantillon



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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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I don't understand why you are making such a fuzz out of this. There is ALREADY a way to opt out of PvP and that is disengaging. If you are running a proper pillage with the right amount of manpower. As a Bnaver it is really not difficult to evade the enemy ship for 10 turns, that is if you are properly manned and actually KNOW how to run a pillage.

The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.

I don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.

I have run numerous pillages and have been engaged in PvP only once (the first battle I disengaged, he then proceeded to follow me for a second engage and he ended up losing the fray). I also have an extra sloop that I leave unlocked for crew use in a SINKING archipielago and even the newest officers in the crew have not sunk it yet (fingers crossed).

Bottom line in my point of view is that you have some common sense and critical thinking before starting a pillage. It's not just about going on your ship and posting a job. You should Check the notice board for any enemy faction who is jobbing and check which island they're at. If an Ultimate bnaver from the other faction loading a pilly off of Huracan Island then just use a ship on another island. Don't have a ship on another island? Then wait for this person to finish their pilly to start yours.

I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; If you have at least some bnav experience and know how to actually run a pillage, being engaged in a PvP should not pose a threat to you, even if the enemy battle navigator is more experienced you should be able to run away or force a grapple and lose your stock instead of your ship. If being engaged on a PvP does pose a threat to you then just stay on Greywaters arch until you have the knowledge.

Your opt-out proposal would be somewhat imbalanced for the people that don't opt-out because you will potentially get the same high paying cuts for a battle without having to risk your ship. If there was PvP or not I don't care, I just think that the same rules should apply for everyone.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by mantillon at Oct 21, 2017 3:47:55 PM]
[Oct 21, 2017 3:46:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.


While I disagree that it is a little skewed you are spot on with the ability to evade and run. I rarely get caught on a MB soloing on other oceans, when I am its cause I spawn in a bad spot or make a dumb move.

Its pretty basic to run but most try to fight then get hit which makes running hard... I don't think any mechanic other then upping the black ships likely-hood needs adjusting, and allowing it to sink the attacker in sinky waters.
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[Oct 21, 2017 5:46:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
cmdrzoom

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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The whole point of Dark Seas was to give the masses what they want. The masses wanted a point for PvP. To be able opt out of a major part of the game, on this server, is not a good idea.


Did "the masses" actually want that, or was it just a very loud minority?

Consider the example of WildStar, which launched on promises to cater to those who loudly wished for a return to the "hardcore" raiding and related gameplay of MMOs past. Unfortunately, it turned out that audience wasn't large enough to sustain it, and it cratered pretty hard.

(IMO, this was due to the aforementioned "loud minority" factor, and also to nostalgia - how many old players found out, when they were given what they asked for, that it wasn't really as fun as they remembered? or that what they enjoyed and could make time for as a high school or college student was no longer sustainable as an adult with obligations like job and family?)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by cmdrzoom at Nov 1, 2017 12:32:21 AM]
[Nov 1, 2017 12:30:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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I don't understand why you are making such a fuzz out of this. There is ALREADY a way to opt out of PvP and that is disengaging. If you are running a proper pillage with the right amount of manpower. As a Bnaver it is really not difficult to evade the enemy ship for 10 turns, that is if you are properly manned and actually KNOW how to run a pillage.


This is really patronizing and presumptuous. I never said I wasn't capable of escaping if I wanted to escape. And the idea that only a "proper" pillage with no swabbies, and skilled people and a bunch of experience is somehow valid for discussion ignores whole swaths of gameplay. You basically create a situation where only experts can do anything, but you can't become an expert under those circumstances. You and a buddy who just scraped together the resources for a ship going to pillage with the two of you and swabbies are just as entitled to a fun gameplay experience on your own terms as a stocked ship with legendary/ultimate puzzlers going hunting. You're defining 'knows how to run a pillage' as 'is experienced and skilled enough to avoid all pvp battle regardless of who attacks them' which is absurd.

 
The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.


As once again people willfully miss the fact that I (and I suspect many who also want a way to opt out of PvP) DO NOT CARE ABOUT SINKING. Stop assuming everybody who doesn't want PvP doesn't want it because they are some cowardly wimp who is desperately afraid to lose their items. I've put more dubs into my outfit, which is guaranteed to dust no matter what I do, than I have into ships, so the idea that we're afraid to lose a ship is such a non-starter. We just do not want to do PvP. I don't want to fight directly against other humans. Full stop. That's it. That's the whole thing. I want to have an option to PvE. Because I simply do not desire to PvP, especially not non-consensual PvP. I even baked auto-dusting of neutral ships right into the opening proposal.

 
I don't understand why you want to opt out of PvP if the theme of this ocean is exactly to encourage it. Yes it is a little skewed to benefit the hunter rather than the hunted but that doesn't mean that if you get engaged on PvP you will automatically sink; if that is your point of view then just stay on greywaters until you feel more confident.
Did you...I don't know...actually READ any of the thread before you decided to come in here with this crap? The idea that this is "The PvP server among a bunch of other servers" is bullcannon. The numbers of THIS server are already dropping and it's 75-80% of all online players. It is THE SERVER. The only one. This is the game. And since some of us who don't want to PvP still want this game to survive and possibly even start to grow instead of slowly shrink are proposing ideas for how that might be done, having people wander by without actually reading our position to say "If you're just too scared to play with the grownups, spend some time in the kiddy pool first" is really not a good look.

The intended setup of the server was to encourage PvP (Well, if we're honest, it was to see if a server that even more aggressively pushed buying dubs would work) but what ended up happening is that the fresh start appeal was enough to pull a bunch of lapsed players out of the woodwork and into activity, so suddenly this server is tripling the online numbers of the only other remotely populous server. But those numbers are already dropping again. And so it appears "More PvP!" was, if the thing designed to attract and keep players, -failing- in that goal. So it's time to consider other options, or watch the game slide into death again.

 
I have run numerous pillages and have been engaged in PvP only once (the first battle I disengaged, he then proceeded to follow me for a second engage and he ended up losing the fray). I also have an extra sloop that I leave unlocked for crew use in a SINKING archipielago and even the newest officers in the crew have not sunk it yet (fingers crossed).
Congratz. not the point since we don't care about sinking, we care about not having to PvP regardless of outcome.

 
Bottom line in my point of view is that you have some common sense and critical thinking before starting a pillage. It's not just about going on your ship and posting a job. You should Check the notice board for any enemy faction who is jobbing and check which island they're at. If an Ultimate bnaver from the other faction loading a pilly off of Huracan Island then just use a ship on another island. Don't have a ship on another island? Then wait for this person to finish their pilly to start yours.
It SHOULD be as simple as getting on your ship and posting a job. If you want to PLAY THIS GAME you should just be able to play it, and not go "Oh this guy who can trivially sink my ship is nearby, guess I'll just STAND HERE for as long as he wants to play, and only then, can I also play" That is such an absurd requirement to try suggesting should exist, and even worse if you think it already exists.

What do you actually think this game IS? Like, what is the cycle of activity for this game? Because my understanding is that it is

Desire items -> Pillage to earn currency for items -> Get items -> Desire items

And suggesting that the core principle that allows that system (Pillaging to earn currency for items) should either only be the purview of the expert, or people need to queue up and wait their turn to play if they don't want to have to play against other humans isn't just a new emphasis for a server, you're describing a whole other game from this game.

Go actually look at how Y!PP advertises itself to new players, and then consider what a new player would need to do to actually achieve the goals encouraged in the advertising.

 
I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; If you have at least some bnav experience and know how to actually run a pillage, being engaged in a PvP should not pose a threat to you, even if the enemy battle navigator is more experienced you should be able to run away or force a grapple and lose your stock instead of your ship. If being engaged on a PvP does pose a threat to you then just stay on Greywaters arch until you have the knowledge.
I'm trying to convey my message in the best way possible; We don't care whether or not PvP poses a threat to us. We care about not wanting to PvP or be subject to non-consensual PvP attacks. None of your response has shown even the tiniest awareness of the other side's position, you're just parroting the same tired inaccurate objections all the other "here to PvP, and I literally cannot conceive of another point of view if I tried" posters.

 
Your opt-out proposal would be somewhat imbalanced for the people that don't opt-out because you will potentially get the same high paying cuts for a battle without having to risk your ship. If there was PvP or not I don't care, I just think that the same rules should apply for everyone.


I should just start responding to objections like this with "Addressed already in the original post" so maybe you'll actually read it. If you look at the costs I was voluntarily associating with being able to be neutral, you'd find that a neutral player would probably spend MORE to play actively than a skilled bnavver with a penchant for disengaging.
[Nov 1, 2017 8:37:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Re: Server future, Opt-out PvP, Neutral Crews (BIG WALL OF TEXT) Reply to this Post
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Devonin wrote: 

 
The situation obviously changes when you are running an undermanned ship or don't know very well the mechanics of running a pillage. This is where greywaters comes in; yes we all know that pay rates on greywaters are not the best but that is the POINT of greywaters. There is practically no risk (your ship will not be sunk) so that is why the rewards are less. Greywaters a place for new pirates to learn how running a pillage works without running the risk of sinking.


As once again people willfully miss the fact that I (and I suspect many who also want a way to opt out of PvP) DO NOT CARE ABOUT SINKING. Stop assuming everybody who doesn't want PvP doesn't want it because they are some cowardly wimp who is desperately afraid to lose their items. I've put more dubs into my outfit, which is guaranteed to dust no matter what I do, than I have into ships, so the idea that we're afraid to lose a ship is such a non-starter. We just do not want to do PvP. I don't want to fight directly against other humans. Full stop. That's it. That's the whole thing. I want to have an option to PvE. Because I simply do not desire to PvP, especially not non-consensual PvP. I even baked auto-dusting of neutral ships right into the opening proposal.


Why is this a new issue then? Battle mechanics in the Greywaters are the same as those in vanillla YPP, they aren't exclusive to the Dark Seas. If the possibility of PvP ruins your experience so much, how did you manage to enjoy playing on whatever ocean you were on previously?
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[Nov 1, 2017 1:07:00 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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In spite of the PvP.
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