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GreatBob

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Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Is there any possibility of having the thought process behind enabling 20k tables? Have they been enabled as a test, or are they here to stay? While I certainly concede they're not nearly as bad as the 200k tables, they still allow for a pretty disgusting amount of money to be moved around; with luck on your side playing poker is far more lucrative than shipboard activities.


If they are here to stay, could we see some kind of restriction? Disabling No Limit games for the highest buyin seems like a good start, if only to take some of the wind out of the sails when it comes to quickly gaining money.
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Sagacious

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5% rake seems fair to me in exchange for more enjoyable stakes.
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patgangster

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The original announcements for Obsidian mentioned poker up to 2k-20k; I guess they enabled it later to not mess with the first 2-3 months of startup so much.

I think 2k-20k poker existing is perfectly fine, especially considering the harsh 5% rake on it. You're going to need a good amount of skill to consistently outmatch shipboard activities with it.
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Filthyjake

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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playing poker is far more lucrative than shipboard activities


I am so sick of poker haters.

Lets ban PvP's 100% take is much more lucrative then attacking a brigand.

Lets set prices on all shops and commodities so profit is less then 10%.

If a pillage is using small balls pay must Edit more Less then 10% restock if you can't make money your not good. Med balls 15% large 20%.

No more SMH they pay more then pillages.

WHY do people care how others make poe....

Either limit all gambling or none. A single 500k hearts game or 1m SF is also more lucrative. SF/Rumble Tournaments with 100k buy ins also more lucrative.

Problem with to much money moving around make the ocean make it SUBSCRIPTION or limit dub purchases greatly. Why should some people be able to buy 1050 dubs and send in an email to buy more and you are worried about someone walking away with a 500k poker win....

Also fix labor pay Expert Distilling shouldn't pay more then Basic far to much money. 72 hours at 100poe with 9 pirates 64,800 poe a day can't make that pillaging better cap pay at 40 poe and hour. I mean should someone be able to make almost 2m in a month distilling.

Cap kade pay at 2k so people still pillage 9999 is much to lucrative.

5% Rake on 1m poker table is a 50k poe sink, this would happen many many times a day. Poe Sinks control inflation.

All wagers should have a rake.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Sep 19, 2017 5:45:53 PM]
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patgangster

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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No more SMH they pay more then pillages.


All joking aside: They actually don't.
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Scarpath

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I'm fine with the poker stakes while we have the rake. The rake put a sink, and a little nagging thought to be a little more thoughtful with the poe when gambling. I've never been much of a poker player, but I understand that many players are. But hey, the 200k tables were the issue, not the 20k ones. The 20k are FINE.

(Also, while I'm actually talking on parlor game issues, I give a +1 to the idea of extending the rake to the other card games. Encourage players to play your games, GH. Not the ones that can be found elsewhere.)
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joshuawhelan

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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No more SMH they pay more then pillages.


2 hours in a cit run: 10k
2 hours on a (successful) Wild Seas pillage: 30k+ post-division
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Filthyjake

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Ok no more pillages they pay more then SMH. We all must do the same thing all the time so its fair. LOL But lets get rid of the vestal owners chest cause well its just to much of an advantage for getting a Fam or trinkets.

Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it. All wagers are more likely to pay better then pillaging. Some times people just want to sit at a poker table why should then not get paid. Perhaps people would rather those types (self included yet I love the sea's) Move on to a different game or go to a poker only game.

Cap them all add rakes to all or leave them all alone.

No one complains that X pirate constantly runs things which pays more then jobbing for the same run. This is a game some will do this some will do that that is what makes this game great.

Don't try and force me out to the ships. Since poker was destroyed I spend more times in the shops then ever before. Why cause I need to be able to come and go not stuck on ship. Poker provided that I can walk away take a phone call ect. (I play at work). Keep trying to drive people out to the ships, but don't be upset when the game's population starts trickling down as your making it a pillage only game. More people sit on the dock doing NOTHING then paying poker, lets hand out loitering tickets.

#boycott parlor badges till poker is returned to its 200k glory xP
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[Sep 20, 2017 6:38:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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I'm no expert but if I was to join up to a game called "Puzzle Pirates" tomorrow, I'd be unlikely to quit the day after just because there's no 20k - 200k poker. I'd kind of expect something along the lines of puzzling, piracy & ships....

Emerald has 20k - 200k tables if it's that big of a deal.
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superstarsam

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Not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but rake hasn't been implemented faithfully. In YPP poker, if Player 1 bets and Player 2 folds, Player 1's bet is nonetheless taken into the pot and then raked. This is not how it works in casino settings or in online real money poker. Indeed, if player 1 was to (for whatever reason) shove all-in into a tiny pot and win by folding out the other players, the rake would return them less than they started the hand with.

While I'm all for enormous PoE sinks being included on poker to disincentivize it, I was just wondering if those who implemented the (entirely welcome) concept of a rake into this game are aware that it does not resemble a standard poker rake.
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Flyerme

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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The 5% rake seems fine to me when playing so far.

I can see the benefit in applying it to uncalled preflop all ins given how some play here.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Flyerme at Sep 20, 2017 10:33:48 AM]
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mysteryman64

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but rake hasn't been implemented faithfully. In YPP poker, if Player 1 bets and Player 2 folds, Player 1's bet is nonetheless taken into the pot and then raked. This is not how it works in casino settings or in online real money poker. Indeed, if player 1 was to (for whatever reason) shove all-in into a tiny pot and win by folding out the other players, the rake would return them less than they started the hand with.

While I'm all for enormous PoE sinks being included on poker to disincentivize it, I was just wondering if those who implemented the (entirely welcome) concept of a rake into this game are aware that it does not resemble a standard poker rake.


While true, it would also encourage more frequent all-ins which annoys much of the community. In its current state, it helps discourage strong bets prior to the flop.

Not necessarily a reason not to change it, but something to take into consideration.
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BobJanova

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Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it.
It's not just that we don't like it (actually I quite like poker), it's that (i) it's not at all piratey and (ii) it can redistribute money far faster than you can get it through piratey activities, to the extent that it doesn't matter if you're any good at anything else, poker is the only important skill.
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Filthyjake

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Of course my post is/was a joke but it just points out there are lots of ways to make more pay then pillaging. Stop Attacking Poker cause you don't like it.
It's not just that we don't like it (actually I quite like poker), it's that (i) it's not at all piratey and (ii) it can redistribute money far faster than you can get it through piratey activities, to the extent that it doesn't matter if you're any good at anything else, poker is the only important skill.


How is Hearts, Spades, Sparing SF, Rumbling, Treasure Drop or running a tailor or any shop Piratey, its no different.

Pirates hunt merchants, each other, not monsters guess that should go too. Its a game. Pirates fought to death not for wagers. Im sure they jumped into rafts and went looking for eggs. Or drive into odd building that pop up in the ocean to fight goons.

 
I'm no expert but if I was to join up to a game called "Puzzle Pirates" tomorrow, I'd be unlikely to quit the day after just because there's no 20k - 200k poker. I'd kind of expect something along the lines of puzzling, piracy & ships....


Would you if you joined it had 200k tables?
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LJAmethyst

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Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004". Poker was completely alien to the pioneering players of Puzzle Pirates. It was a naked grab for cash by Three Rings, because they judged by the success of online gambling sites that people would jump at the chance to buy in with doubloons for money. And it worked. It worked all too well. It created a new focus of activity for everyone logging on. Greenies would quit pillages as soon as they had enough for a buy-in. Crew officers would neglect leading pillages because they were winning/losing big at the tables in the Inns. Flag royals would gamble up a blockade in a high-stakes game, rather than scraping and saving and fund-raising (fund-raising is an activity that brings people together and unites them in a common purpose, and donors feel personally invested in the cause.)

There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.
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cmdrzoom

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Well said.
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mari_

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Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004". Poker was completely alien to the pioneering players of Puzzle Pirates. It was a naked grab for cash by Three Rings, because they judged by the success of online gambling sites that people would jump at the chance to buy in with doubloons for money. And it worked. It worked all too well. It created a new focus of activity for everyone logging on. Greenies would quit pillages as soon as they had enough for a buy-in. Crew officers would neglect leading pillages because they were winning/losing big at the tables in the Inns. Flag royals would gamble up a blockade in a high-stakes game, rather than scraping and saving and fund-raising (fund-raising is an activity that brings people together and unites them in a common purpose, and donors feel personally invested in the cause.)

There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.


This pretty much sums it up, already on Obsidian you have gone from see barely 1 table for poker up to seeing 3+ daily - not a huge jump but a big jump nonetheless. You want this game to work, you need people on ships, running ships and doing stuff on ships. Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.
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[Sep 21, 2017 12:15:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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This pretty much sums it up, already on Obsidian you have gone from see barely 1 table for poker up to seeing 3+ daily - not a huge jump but a big jump nonetheless. You want this game to work, you need people on ships, running ships and doing stuff on ships.

People want poe, I have seen a decrease in KH and Cit's since they "fixed" the pay.

So the game won't work if the people who can't puzzle on a ship for what ever reason they should play some other game. Poker is a game you can play while doing other activities easily yet still be logged in playing. I often play used to play poker while waiting for friends ect or a run that is appealing to me yes it can pay but at least I am not straight lining or afking on a pillage because real life won't let me focus 100% of my attention on a game.

 
Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.

This is my argument, cap all or none. If money moving to easy was an issue a rake was a great idea yet only hits one part of the game that has gambling and should affect all gambling.

This wager should have aPoe Sink in the form of a rake as well.

To many people playing gambling?? Create a wager badge 20 Dubs - 50 Dubs. No more parlor badge (I still don't have one) all the games are free you just can't play for poe. End the fee days I would love cribbage checkers, and other games for the ship loading waits especially since you can't mutli client. Instead I log on find little to nothing to do end up in the shops rather then the ships. That said I can't afford the 200k table but it is total barnacle that only one form of gambling is hit.
 
Okay, let's put it this way. Define "piratey" as "the spirit of the game as it was on Midnight in 2004"

I wasn't around but I doubt the game looks the same as since I joined I have seen rigging, patching, Kracken added.

 
There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

I understand the issue with people pulling a million out of the poker pot, but the rake is a great equalizer. People still can do so with other games and they don't have a rake. I understand my argument is going to fall on deaf ears. I guess I will keep shops till it gets boring with out commode markets its annoying . Honestly I can say that I miss poker and with out it the game is to demanding on my time yes I used it to supplement my income. I support the game with real money, but with out poker or enough time I can't afford to play the game I enjoy on Dark Seas.
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majestrate

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So the game won't work if the people who can't puzzle on a ship for what ever reason they should play some other game. Poker is a game you can play while doing other activities easily yet still be logged in playing. I often play used to play poker while waiting for friends ect or a run that is appealing to me yes it can pay but at least I am not straight lining or afking on a pillage because real life won't let me focus 100% of my attention on a game.

Past experience tells us that how you treat poker is not how the average player treated poker. You use it as a time sink, great. That does not dismiss the fact that the scenarios LJAmethyst listed were (are, on other oceans?) the norm.

 
Cala wrote: 
Right now putting in the higher stakes in poker, and not capping the hearts/spades buy-ins is going to have a massive effect over time to people sitting on the ships.

This is my argument, cap all or none. If money moving to easy was an issue a rake was a great idea yet only hits one part of the game that has gambling and should affect all gambling.

This wager should have aPoe Sink in the form of a rake as well.

High-level carousing has been around at least since 2004, I have to imagine it started before 2004. You can't compare Poker wagering to SF/Rumble/TD wagering, because we're talking about large tables, not heads-up (which is what SF/Rumble/TD are). And you can't compare Poker to Spades because the most you're going to win is half the pot. The issue with poker is that too many pirates see it as the quick and easy way to build wealth, so they go put together their 20,000 eights, jump on a table, go all-in, along with the other 7-9 pirates trying to do the same thing, then 1 person lucks out and wins 7-9x their buy-in. It's mass movement of eights well beyond the scale of what high-end SF/Rumble/TD/Spades/Hearts is.

I personally believe you are playing it in the manner anticipated. But too much of the beginner-midrange player-base is not.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by majestrate at Sep 21, 2017 11:28:38 AM]
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jdl1963



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There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.


This. Poker changed the game forever - and not in a good way.
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xelto

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There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

Speaking as someone who finds poker incredibly boring, and refuses to play it in any form: it did fill one gap the game needs—a group activity that a person can get into and out of in a hurry; something to fill the time while waiting for a ship to sail or a hearty to log on.

If poker ever leaves the game, it needs something to replace it, that fills that gap. Something like liar's dice/pirates dice, with rules modified to allow easy entrance and exit from the game.
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GreatBob

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There were other things that ruined the game, but Poker contributed more than her fair share. She is a cruel mistress.

Speaking as someone who finds poker incredibly boring, and refuses to play it in any form: it did fill one gap the game needs?a group activity that a person can get into and out of in a hurry; something to fill the time while waiting for a ship to sail or a hearty to log on.

If poker ever leaves the game, it needs something to replace it, that fills that gap. Something like liar's dice/pirates dice, with rules modified to allow easy entrance and exit from the game.

I have no problem with poker, nor do I think it's vastly out of place here. Gambling with cards was popular in the time period, so if hearts and spades are kosher, why not poker.

The issue is the massive redistribution of PoE it allows for, especially with the come and go format. Other games allow for high wagers, but there is a winner and loser, plus a definitive end. With poker the money usually comes from many other players, lowering individual risk. In SF, gaining 100k means someone else lost 100k. With poker, gaining 100k could be 5 people that lost 20k, or any other distribution you care to imagine.
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wrestle691



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The rake is one of the only continuous and significant poe sinks, look at some of the old dead oceans and you will see inflation run rampant.

Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy. A 5% rake (on bets for some strange reason also) is extremely harsh and makes playing poker as a sole source of income a losing prospect long term.

You keep speaking like have money move around is a bad thing when actually it gets people buying dubs (lowering dub price) takes poe out of the economy (lowering dub price) and helps fund larger scale activities and events.

Unsanctioned or private poker games can/will go on for high stakes, perhaps at a 200 table with each poe representing 1k in a house with a chest for deposits. People could use a 3rd party program after depositing with someone running it. People could go to the casino and play poker with money they woulda bought in for dubs. At least having the option for 200k poker in game with rake would prevent some of that from happening.
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jdl1963



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Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

 
A 5% rake (on bets for some strange reason also) is extremely harsh and makes playing poker as a sole source of income a losing prospect long term.


And that's a Good Thing indeed, the game is called Puzzle Pirates and not Mississippi Cardshark for a reason. This goes double for Obsidian where the focus in PvP at sea. On the old oceans, poker had an almost immediate and detrimental impact on the game as more and more people took to playing the tables rather than going to sea. (Or even standing around docktarting.)

 
You keep speaking like have money move around is a bad thing when actually it gets people buying dubs (lowering dub price) takes poe out of the economy (lowering dub price) and helps fund larger scale activities and events.


The problem isn't money moving around - the problem is players sitting around. The former is a good thing (and already happens with shops and merchanting), the latter is definitely not good for long term health of the game.
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Nek0jin

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Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?
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Filthyjake

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Ypedia, Poe Sinks says,
 
Sales taxes paid when purchasing items from a shoppe or stall.
War chests (note that if a defender wins, they get a portion of all war chests for a blockade)
Brigands taking PoE from your ship in combat.
Taxes on selling doubloons.
Fees paid for market bidding.
Charts bought from shipyards.
Familiar auctions, and fees for special Ocean Master or Ringer services.
Booty removed by the black ship.
Buying commodities from merchants.
Buying any type of housing.
Buying gems from a commodities market.
Buying ships from Ringer owned shipyards or palace shoppes. (new oceans only)
Buying cannon balls from Ringer owned palaces via the commodities market. (new oceans only)
Buying portraits using an easel.
Buying trinkets or pets from the palace shoppe.
The rake in Poker on the Obsidian Ocean.
PoE belonging to deleted pirates.
Throwing a party.
Ships abandoned at sea.[1]
Paying NPPs and wagers lost to NPPs

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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.
[Oct 5, 2017 12:24:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.
[Oct 5, 2017 12:50:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Fair enough, but most of those are relatively small in comparison.

Absolutely you can see the result on the other oceans. While we hate them when we have to pay them they are needed to keep down the inflation. I am all for a rake on all gambling as well as increasing the poker amount so we have larger more frequent poe sinks.
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Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)
?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.
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jdl1963



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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm awaiting the original poster's clarification, because "would create a money sink" and "would do great things for the economy" don't mean quite the same thing. Unless you're indulging in nonspecific and meaningless hyperbole for the purpose of promoting something, which abuse of the language is sadly common on the 'net.

But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.
[Oct 5, 2017 4:18:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: Reasoning behind higher stake poker on Obsidian Reply to this Post
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Honestly 200k tables would be fine with a 5% rake and would do a ton of great things for the economy.


Such as?

They're saying that the rake would be a functional (and, at that scale, significant) money sink. On the other servers, the only money sinks that I'm aware of are sinking ships and items dusting, right?


Maybe, maybe not. I'm awaiting the original poster's clarification, because "would create a money sink" and "would do great things for the economy" don't mean quite the same thing. Unless you're indulging in nonspecific and meaningless hyperbole for the purpose of promoting something, which abuse of the language is sadly common on the 'net.

I don't think it's hyperbolic or nonspecific at all, given that his previous sentence was specifically discussing the problem of inflation on older oceans.

 
But discussing the rake is orthogonal to the real issue - which is preventing poker from becoming a drag on the larger game. Large pots are a step backwards in that respect.

Poker has been in YPP for eleven and a half years now. I seem to remember people making similar doom-and-gloom comments about the effects of poker on the overall game then, too, but it's still here, and survived longer than plenty of other MMOs. If anything is hyperbolic here, it's the woeful talk about poker's negative effects on the game.
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