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zanreth

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Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Ahoy all,

So far I think Obsidian has been a success. The ocean is up and running, it has drawn old pirates back, it has brought some new pirates through word of mouth. Pvp is beginning to happen, there is a feel to each of the factions. The island design is exquisite. Some things are different, such as merchant hunting, while Wild Seas pillages are exciting - although personally, I wonder if a little underpaying. In fact, pillages right now do seem to have oddly imbalanced pay outs - merchants in the only non-sinking arch give practically as much poe/hour as pillaging in the Wild Seas if you're good at grapple chucking. Perhaps a touch less.

However the elephant in the room with Obsidian is Hemp. There have been no hemp deliveries, whatsoever, since the 7th of July. At least to my knowledge. Nobody in my flag [Versus Terminus] has received any, from observing the buy offers, nobody at any stall is being delivered any - apart from the odd one won from a bot that a player has previously lost.

It has been said to us that the merchants are working fine - they are not delivering hemp because it is a bulky good that is not worth their time transporting.

Yet this hardly adds up to reason.

For one, when the bots were delivering hemp, it was only 35 per unit, and at that time wood and iron were both more expensive than they have been at points during the last ten days. This means the bots were delivering the hemp even though it was less profitable at the time to do so.

Or perhaps the bots did deliver hemp back then, but decided against doing so later, re-evaluating their calculations for whatever reason... Hemp is sixteen times heavier than iron (but weighs less than wood, which has been consistently being delivered for less than hemp is currently ordered at dockside). Given that iron has been delivered at five per unit quite happily by the bots in the last week - although not 24/7, and the price has risen in the last 24 hours - hemp should be being delivered for 80 poe, right? Except it isn't. Far from it.

Maybe there is an argument to be made that the sheer quantity of iron orders mean that bots, preferring an easy life, choose to fill only the iron orders because of the knowledge it is a guaranteed payday. Perhaps this holds true - but should this really be true for the entire merchant fleet of the ocean? Not one of them seeks out the fortune to be made selling hemp at 2500 a unit, when it is routinely delivered in the single digits elsewhere? Furthermore, surely the merchant algorithm recognises the needs for certain items to be delivered in different quantities than others. If the merchants are capable of delivering the correct amount of Madder, for example, as well as a reasonable amount of iron and wood, how can they not fit hemp onto their boats?

Perhaps the bots are working properly. Perhaps we still have not cracked the reason why they do not deliver them. I however find such a conclusion deeply troubling. For ten days now, the oceans tailors, weaveries and shipyards have been at a virtual standstill, aside from lifeboats. Apothecaries, distilleries, furnishers all have their production options severely limited.

There is the old saying, "this is a testing ocean," and then there is a "we aren't testing anything."

One wonders how long it is acceptable for the economy to be permanently booched. On Malachite, there was slightly under two months between the first island being opened and it being blockaded. Now, while it is very possible for an organised flag to crank out a huge number of ships everyday, this is still a short space of time to put together a fleet for a blockade. Not to mention; with no items being delivered, GH make no money, as the demand for doubloons surely falters.

The other option that exists is the possibility that hemp has been turned off. This is something of a conspiracy theory; yet with every passing day, I find myself more and more tempted to believe it.

I believe that OMs have twice now intervened with the bidding at Port Venture to keep wood affordable, and the rum/cb economy chugging over. Why have they not made some effort to alter the hemp problem?

I think there is a bigger issue here than just the hemp. Maybe it will fix itself in ten days. Maybe it really is just booched.

But we have seen almost radio silence from Grey Havens since the initially encouraging announcement post, thread and opening day. Some OMs are nice enough to visit the docks if they have time during their day, and that is appreciated. I would like to strongly encourage more of this behaviour from Grey Havens.

One other massively popular MMORPG in existence right now, which is similar to YPP in terms of age and glory days, is 'Old School RuneScape' (or 2007scape/OSRS to some). An old game like YPP which is enjoying a new lease of life with a development team just as passionate about their game as Grey Havens clearly are.

I am making this post because Grey Havens are making decisions that are encouraging: altering the doubloon price for ships being a prime example.

What the developments of OSRS excel most at is communication with their players. I don't expect Grey Havens to overnight transform their business model; and I appreciate that they must work as hard as they can bear to get Obsidian ready to ship. But I think it would massively improve player satisfaction to see more channels of public communication opened. Not just conversations with a lucky few on the docks, which is then transformed by hearsay across global chat in the next few days, or by answering petitions to the few (or many) players.

I appreciate that Grey Havens want to keep some things close to their chest. Perhaps there is not much more they can say about the merchants that they have not already said in the past decade or so, and we truly have to work this one out on our own. But something to cling to to look forward to would be greatly appreciated. Right now, player enthusiasm for Obsidian is at a height. With everyday the economy stands still, I feel my own fall a little and I am sure I cannot be the only one.

There are solutions to the hemp problem. Forced spawns, forced deliveries, or my preferred, a new market bidding - at either Mitjana or Melanaster, which would solve the problem, reward pirates willing to ship commodities and stimulate pvp.

Above all though, I want to see Grey Havens show they appreciate those of us who love the game so much to be on here day after day, by simply responding to the current big issue on the ocean with their thoughts in a public way on the forums, and I hope that in future they can continue such an open development process - which I believe is the best way to engage a community and which I think OOO failed to do in the declining years of YPP.

Ten minutes after I made this post, Merchant Galleons started spawning from Cavum Ridge..
Okay, we have confirmation that hemp is being delivered.

TL;DR - made after the post. Hemp is officially being delivered by MGs now, so the ten day wait is over. I still hope that Grey Havens will open up their communication with us in future.
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Albert, Obsidian, Defiant Armada
Calicojack, Emerald
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by zanreth at Jul 17, 2017 10:43:33 AM]
[Jul 17, 2017 9:55:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forculus
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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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We've been tracking the hemp situation, but since I didn't find any problems in the database or errors in the server log, all indications were that it just needed some additional time to sort itself out. However, today I found that the Obsidian ocean was attempting to create additional merchant vessels, but halting because it had reached the limit. This is interesting, because it has the same limit as the other oceans (such as Emerald) and those oceans aren't maxing out.

Regardless, I've tweaked some settings today, and it looks like this is already helping with the commodity situation. Sorry that the commodities have been such a hassle this past week, we really appreciate the community's assistance and feedback in testing this ocean and helping us knock out these types of issues so that the ocean is running smoothly once it hits Steam.
[Jul 17, 2017 11:15:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yanojr

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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lol maybe cause in other oceans we dont attack so many merchants xD so the game didnt need to make more vessels...
[Jul 17, 2017 12:01:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link]  Go to top 
zanreth

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Forculus, thank you for your quick response to my thread and the efforts you've made to fix the situation.
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Albert, Obsidian, Defiant Armada
Calicojack, Emerald
[Jul 17, 2017 12:13:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
madesteven

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Top post Albert.
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Jacada
Senior Officer - Anarchist Syndicate
Lord of Versus Terminus
Obsidian Ocean
Defiant Armada



[Jul 17, 2017 12:16:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Duck_man2000

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Great post Albert, But hemp is once again broken. :(
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Soulsearcher

On Obsidian.
[Jul 17, 2017 11:14:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Great post Albert, But hemp is once again broken. :(



Did it really ever get fixed?

It's back to no deliveries now.
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Martyhur on Emerald
Marty on Obsidian
[Jul 18, 2017 8:21:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jlh0605

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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lol maybe cause in other oceans we dont attack so many merchants xD so the game didnt need to make more vessels...

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that each merchant, on average, is attacked 2-3 times before making port, thus making it take much longer to reach port, thus causing more merchants to not spawn since the other merchants are busy in battles.

Is this possible?
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~Jamesh on Emerald
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Galene tells ye, "You are awesome."
[Jul 19, 2017 12:39:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link]  Go to top 
zanreth

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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lol maybe cause in other oceans we dont attack so many merchants xD so the game didnt need to make more vessels...

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that each merchant, on average, is attacked 2-3 times before making port, thus making it take much longer to reach port, thus causing more merchants to not spawn since the other merchants are busy in battles.

Is this possible?


This sounds reasonable.

After Forculus' post, we saw a flurry of Merchant Galleons and Merchant Brigs spawn on the ocean, but to my knowledge from my own observations and conversations with flaggies, as of this post, no more have spawned since then.

It is my latest theory that there are so many stalls demanding high value, low weight products - minerals and herbs - that merchants are only spawning in low hull size ships, as they forage for those high value commodities and then fill up on wood or iron as an afterthought. This prevents the overwhelming demand for basic commodities being filled, as it seems that sloops/cutters are taking priority over large ships. No doubt this makes sense as the high value goods attract the merchant bots still more than hemp.

I do however urge Grey Havens to take whatever steps necessary to rectify this. Hemp has quickly turned into a bidding war between the two largest flags (and disclaimer, I am in one of them) at the cost of most everyone else! Individual pirates trying to run their tailors, or build ships for crew use, or even those pirates happy enough to squander hemp on paint for their ships are incapable of matching the prices of the larger flags. It should be noted too that as the rate of hemp delivery is so low, these prices are clearly not dropping - the hemp is used as quickly as it is being delivered. I have little faith that these prices will rectify themselves.

Maybe this is the new world!


Edit: It occurs to me that another thing affecting the merchants on Obsidian, but which as not affected any ocean since 2010, is the distance they have to travel. It is true that Obsidian is most compact production ocean - at least I think/assume it is - but still, given the higher prices on Port Venture due to more competition, many merchants spawn in the Wild Seas and then travel at a snails pace all the way down the map. So not only are they engaged repeatedly on their way, but in fact the distance they have to travel means that there are less goods being transported per raw merchant ships than on other oceans. At least, that's how it might work out. I could be wrong.
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Albert, Obsidian, Defiant Armada
Calicojack, Emerald
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by zanreth at Jul 19, 2017 4:59:45 AM]
[Jul 19, 2017 4:22:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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lol maybe cause in other oceans we dont attack so many merchants xD so the game didnt need to make more vessels...

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that each merchant, on average, is attacked 2-3 times before making port, thus making it take much longer to reach port, thus causing more merchants to not spawn since the other merchants are busy in battles.

Is this possible?


This sounds reasonable.

After Forculus' post, we saw a flurry of Merchant Galleons and Merchant Brigs spawn on the ocean, but to my knowledge from my own observations and conversations with flaggies, as of this post, no more have spawned since then.

It is my latest theory that there are so many stalls demanding high value, low weight products - minerals and herbs - that merchants are only spawning in low hull size ships, as they forage for those high value commodities and then fill up on wood or iron as an afterthought. This prevents the overwhelming demand for basic commodities being filled, as it seems that sloops/cutters are taking priority over large ships. No doubt this makes sense as the high value goods attract the merchant bots still more than hemp.

I do however urge Grey Havens to take whatever steps necessary to rectify this. Hemp has quickly turned into a bidding war between the two largest flags (and disclaimer, I am in one of them) at the cost of most everyone else! Individual pirates trying to run their tailors, or build ships for crew use, or even those pirates happy enough to squander hemp on paint for their ships are incapable of matching the prices of the larger flags. It should be noted too that as the rate of hemp delivery is so low, these prices are clearly not dropping - the hemp is used as quickly as it is being delivered. I have little faith that these prices will rectify themselves.

Maybe this is the new world!


I think you may be right about these small ships. Yesterday I was paying the top price alone for hemp and I got a delivery of 8 hemp. When I have ran shops on previous oceans the deliveries of hemp were closer to the thousands.
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Martyhur on Emerald
Marty on Obsidian
[Jul 19, 2017 4:30:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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Great post Albert, But hemp is once again broken. :(

The sales tax rate on hemp has dropped almost in half since Forculus said he kicked the code. The tax on other basic commodities, however, has gone up and hemp is still REALLY high. So, I think things have improved, and maybe now that hemp is unclogged, the consumption of everything else has gone up. On the other hand, maybe things are still broken. I can't really tell.




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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Jul 19, 2017 7:45:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TexasBeesh

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Thanks for posting this Algol! :D
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Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean
LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH
Always looking for Pollack Sloops!
[Jul 19, 2017 7:57:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Onelegstan



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It went down when hemp got delivered for about 12 hours, it has stopped again.
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Martyhur on Emerald
Marty on Obsidian
[Jul 19, 2017 9:52:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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It's like pulling the hair out of a clogged shower drain. It helps some, but trust me, the problem is still there. It'll just keep building until you have to go to impressive measures to fix it if you don't do something soon.

And it isn't just hemp that I'm talking about, really. The "it'll fix itself" attitude is harming the game. Players are leaving because there is no hemp. Players are getting frustrated because the duty rankings are super high right now, as we have a lot of elite players. The less skilled players leave, making the problem worse, instead of better.

Letting it fix itself doesn't seem to be working. It's just making the beta take longer to get to the point where we can test everything that we need to.
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Jul 19, 2017 10:31:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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It went down when hemp got delivered for about 12 hours, it has stopped again.

I just watched the hemp market and it appears that hemp is being delivered. The price is now just about 2PoE/unit less than a half hour ago, with lots of higher bids filled.

I'm not ruling out a problem, I think it is well worth watching, but everything could be fine.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Jul 19, 2017 10:44:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forculus
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Re: Obsidian, Hemp and Grey Havens Reply to this Post
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It went down when hemp got delivered for about 12 hours, it has stopped again.

I just watched the hemp market and it appears that hemp is being delivered. The price is now just about 2PoE/unit less than a half hour ago, with lots of higher bids filled.

I'm not ruling out a problem, I think it is well worth watching, but everything could be fine.

I've been watching the commodity shipments by the merchants in the server logs throughout the day, and I can confirm that many merchants are correctly shipping hemp now (where before, none was being moved at all). So the recent changes made a big difference and continue to be in effect, but we'll keep watching to see if more needs to be done. The specific problem we were facing over the past week is definitely sorted, though.
[Jul 19, 2017 10:50:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Forculus wrote: 
I've been watching the commodity shipments by the merchants in the server logs throughout the day,


Thanks for keeping an eye on this!

For what it is worth, the price of hemp is now down about 10% in the last hour. Still a long ways to go, but going down steadily lets shopkeepers who bought hemp at a high price to sell their goods for a little while.

Edit: Ok, 2 hours after I first started looking at the hemp market, the price is now down to 60% of what it was. Seriously, people, stop HWFOing and post actual data. Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm saying the problem has been solved. Thanks Forculus!
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Jul 19, 2017 12:12:14 PM]
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