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Finaally



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Thoughts on stalling in citadel runs Reply to this Post
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So for a very long time I've been questioning the whole "STALL" thing that's going on everytime there is a citadel fight. I didn't even like it from the start (I will explain why shortly) but now it's like the only thing people focus on is to shout "STALL".

Now just to clerify something, I'm not creating this topic to create war, but to actually try to make player evolve within the game.
I've been running a lot of citadel runs during my time here and I'd like to share my knowlegde.

So, here's my theory.. (to make it easy for us all, let's imagine we're all on a War brig (WB) with a maximum of 30 players)

Part 1: How the swordfighting against goons work and thoughts around it
So we have 30 players who have different experience of swordfighting (SFing). Some players are faster, some slower, some play with combos, some doesn't. In my opinion, and from the experience I have with killing the goons, the best set up would be to have a player who doesn't build and just send stuff to build up the goons board and then the one building huge combos can finish it off.
The more board the goon have the more vulnerable they are. So while the board is being empty, even if you send a huge vegas 3 attack at it. It might not even fill half it's board. But on a human player it would have filled the entire board. But only filling the board with a couple of rows and that vegas 3 will finish that goon easily.
If we try the other way around, the combo player sends a vegas 3 and fills the goons board with a couple of rows, then the slower player sends some singles (no combo) the goon will most of the time not die and in many cases break and probably kill someone.
As long as the goons doesn't have a whole lot on the board, it doesn't usualy hit very hard. The very big hits aren't coming until the goons have been building up for a very long time OR if you send a lot of attack to one goon and makes it board fill up and then let it break. As it breaks it will also be less vulnerable (as we spoke of before), so to finish off goons that have a lot on its board is curcial!

Part 2: Teaming

With all that being said above, I think we can all agree that teaming is a key to victory! But how many should we team with? Usualy people advertice teaming of 2s and 3s.
Why not 4? Because when you go more than 3 players on one goon, it receives some kind of "sheild" which makes it less vulnerable to attacks. Which is shown easily when there is only one goon remaining in a citadel and it has 20 players trying to kill it. Sometimes it takes a while due to the sheild. Beside that, using the strength of 4 (or more) players to kill of 1 goon when you could have 2 teams of 2 and kill off 2 goons in the same amount of time (due to the sheild).
A team of 2 is somewhat risky unless both player are very well synched or just 2 very good players. But in some cases you get 2 slow players who just feeds the goon with lots of bricks and eventually it will break a massive attack on a fiendly player. But for the most part 2 is a fair team size. Optimally though, I'd say is 3.
A team of 3 is for the most part safe, sufficient damage that 90% of the time finishes off the goon wihtout it having the time to break and hit us back.
Why not solo? Well, some players who really knows how the goons work might go for it. But it's really not something I would recommend. Even for me who know the mechanism of goons very well (if I can say so myself) and while being an ultimate swordfighter can sometimes struggle. And even when I succeed I might cause my team to suffer, because as I'm filling the goons board, it usualy has the time to break one time before I've managed to build the finishing combo. And that attack will hurt one of my teammates, just because I wanted to be a cool soloer. And occasionally there comes a time where the finishing combo wasn't great enough and the goon will basically make a ful clear of it's board. Sending massive damage to your team and you've both wasted time and effort and all you got was dead teammates.


Part 3: Why I dislike the whole "stalling" promotion

First of all, when you ask someone "why stall??" You'll most of the time get the answer "To soak as much damage from the goon and buy time for your allies"
Sounds good, right?
But then let's see the bigger picture. Teaming is good, right?
Let's say.. I'm in a team of 2, me and my friend is doing work, I just set up this huge attack of a vegas 4. But what I don't know is that my friend is stalling because he is targeted by a couple of goons. So my vegas 4 just turned in food for the goons to send back at our players.
I've seen so many cases where people have been feeding up goons with lots of bricks but they just can't finish them off, the goon has time to break before the next attacks come.

The whole thought about teaming is ruined because the team of 3 is not actually a team of 3 and the team of 2 might just be a soloer because the other person is stalling and won't be roviding any sufficient damage. And it's almost impossible for you to tell if anyone in your team is stalling or not.
Also why would you ever stall at the begining of a citadel fray? Once again, I've seen players who stalls from the very begining (and officers in charge who are promoting it as well). But the thing is.. the goons have empty boards. What could they possible be sending?
Most likely the dots next to your face will be gone by the time they actually start sending swords.

So let's go back to what I was mentioning earlier in the post. The more you feed the goons the greater attack they will send. Those 2+ dots next to your face might be untargeted goons with barely anything on their boards, their attacks will only tickle you anyway. And stalling will prolong the game, which most likely means greater hits from the goons. Especially if you're in a team and you're stalling. You are for sure gonna hurt your teammates by doing so.

I rarely die in a fray because I had 2 goons on me. 80% of the time those 2 goons are just 2 normal goons that aren't targeted by any human player. And as I said earlier, then they do not hurt very much. They are more likely to provide you with blocks to send back to them in fact. So imagine if I did actually stall instead of keep on playing. I'd be killing a lot of allies and saved multiple goons every run.

I'm not saying that all stalling is bad for your team, but I do not suggest promoting it as a key-thing to win a citadel. You may be able to buy your team some time in certain situations but mostly it's for nothing.


I think that pretty much sums it up. I'm sorry for a messy post. I'm not good at these kind of stuff and I didn't have a pattern for how I was going to write it so I kind of just typed whatever came to my mind.

Hope it's somewhat understandable and if it isn't the shoot me a question and I'll be happy to answer it!

Cheers
Notjapp on Emerald
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Finaally at Jul 11, 2016 2:22:11 PM]
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Finaally



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Re: Thoughts on stalling in citadel runs Reply to this Post
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Please leave don't hesitate on leaving comments. If you agree or disagree, doesn't matter. All thoughts are valuable :)
[Jul 12, 2016 7:20:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
patgangster

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Re: Thoughts on stalling in citadel runs Reply to this Post
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Part 2: Teaming
Why not 4? Because when you go more than 3 players on one goon, it receives some kind of "sheild" which makes it less vulnerable to attacks. Which is shown easily when there is only one goon remaining in a citadel and it has 20 players trying to kill it. Sometimes it takes a while due to the sheild.


What. They don't gain any sort of shield or protection, instead, they stall. They sometimes survive very long because they go through 20 small attacks of a few blocks before getting hit by a larger attack (and then sometimes more small attacks giving them the time to clear and then have to wait again for a new large attack). From what I've seen, they stall a little bit more for every person attacking them (up to a limit; I'd guess that's around 4-5?), you can sometimes even notice an attack taking a long time to land with just three people hitting one goon.

 
Part 3: Why I dislike the whole "stalling" promotion
Also why would you ever stall at the begining of a citadel fray? Once again, I've seen players who stalls from the very begining (and officers in charge who are promoting it as well). But the thing is.. the goons have empty boards. What could they possible be sending?
Most likely the dots next to your face will be gone by the time they actually start sending swords.


This varies per situation... and you never really know which situation you're going to get when the fight starts so it's a bit of a gamble, but the idea is that by stalling from the start, you are
1) Stalling on an empty board, allowing you to stall for a lot longer
2) Still receiving all those small attacks that "don't matter" a long time after you WOULD have taken a large attack if you started to stall later. THIS is what makes stalling insanely good sometimes, being able to tank multiple goons for several minutes. ...But then again as you said a lot of the time those dots next to your face will be gone and then you're sad because you're stalling but you can't really stop stalling because all the attacks in your queue will screw you over if you stop stalling so you sit there with 0 on you waiting to die. Yup. (Or, depending on how long you were attacked you can take the risk and stop stalling anyway, hoping there aren't too many attacks in there.)

 
I'm not saying that all stalling is bad for your team, but I do not suggest promoting it as a key-thing to win a citadel. You may be able to buy your team some time in certain situations but mostly it's for nothing.


I agree. There are way too many people blindly yelling "STALL" "WE LOST BECAUSE NO STALLING" "STALL MORE" when there are many more issues with the swordfighting. Stalling in the right situations is good (learning what those situations are and when to actually go for it takes a while though), but people focus on it and yell about it way too much. I've seen citadels lost because a large amount of the crew was stalling, the goons switched targets and those that were stalling couldn't stop because they'd die (as mentioned earlier) and now those who got teamed to are getting destroyed. Fun times.
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Sagacious

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Would probably help if people got it out of their heads the idea that swords don't matter vs bots. They most certainly do.
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[Jul 12, 2016 12:53:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Finaally



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What. They don't gain any sort of shield or protection, instead, they stall. They sometimes survive very long because they go through 20 small attacks of a few blocks before getting hit by a larger attack (and then sometimes more small attacks giving them the time to clear and then have to wait again for a new large attack). From what I've seen, they stall a little bit more for every person attacking them (up to a limit; I'd guess that's around 4-5?), you can sometimes even notice an attack taking a long time to land with just three people hitting one goon.

If this is the case, shouldn't they still gain blocks everytime they do get the next piece. Which doesn't seem to be the case honestly. So I'm not 100% convinced about that one. Regardless of how it words, we do agree that overteaming makes it die slower.

 
This varies per situation...

Agreed

 
and you never really know which situation you're going to get when the fight starts so it's a bit of a gamble, but the idea is that by stalling from the start, you are

Trust me on this one, 95% of the time it's completely harmless to go full out building mode at the start of the fray. The other 5% will only harm you if you'd get super unlucky with the breakers. And in that case it might not even have to with you stalling or not. But you will never die in the initial minute of the game by any attacks from the goons.


 
2) Still receiving all those small attacks that "don't matter" a long time after you WOULD have taken a large attack if you started to stall later. THIS is what makes stalling insanely good sometimes, being able to tank multiple goons for several minutes.

I have to disagree on this one. I don't even concider myself as a top SF player and yet I see all attacks that aren't lethal as food that makes me stronger. Especially springles. And I've been playing a LOT of lantis SF. More than most. I had test runs as MAA on a junk where I use to solo defend even against 2 - 3 and sometimes even 4 (that's quiet hard though) and they rarely give you lethal attacks UNLESS you provide them the blocks they need. In which I've been trying to tell, is created by stalling players who doesn't aid in the attacks.
Goons aren't dangerous unless you feed them. Why would you ever have to stall if they never send big attacks?

Basically what I'm trying to say is, look at it from a goons perspective. When do they send huge attacks? When they have fuller boards (greater than 40%). So how do we avoid that? By not attacking them unless we are certain to kill them. How can we be certain to kill them if 6 - 7 guys are stalling? we're losing out on so much of our attack force potential! And for what? Trying to avoid attacks that are most likely never to come. The price you're paying for a small chance of actually being successful isn't good enough.

How come I never die due to attacks as one of the first when I never stall? How come I get the first kill (around 70% of the time) even if I have 2+ goons at me? Because I don't stall... I've never stalled (lie) and it has never hurt me..

The few times I do stall is if we were at a 5v5 situations and they are literally 3+ on me AND my board would be all messed up. Meaning, no defending breakers, no good breaking point. Just a messed up board which has a very likelyhood of not making it for very long, then yes I would stall, and did so acoordingly.

At the end of the battle most of the goons have built up a fairly good board by default meaning that the attacks will also be greater. Meaning, stalling in late game would make much more sense. Because just as likely is your board to also be a bit messy unless you've had a smooth run and kept your board all clean and nice.

But I would never ever be scared of just 2 dots net to my face. That's just food.
[Jul 12, 2016 1:35:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Sagacious wrote: 
Would probably help if people got it out of their heads the idea that swords don't matter vs bots. They most certainly do.

This. Wholly and completely, this.

Finaally wrote: 
Basically what I'm trying to say is, look at it from a goons perspective. When do they send huge attacks? When they have fuller boards (greater than 40%). So how do we avoid that? By not attacking them unless we are certain to kill them. How can we be certain to kill them if 6 - 7 guys are stalling? we're losing out on so much of our attack force potential! And for what? Trying to avoid attacks that are most likely never to come. The price you're paying for a small chance of actually being successful isn't good enough.

If you have 3 or 4 NPPs attacking you and you stall, you keep them targeting you by stalling. This allows others to build the combos that will kill the NPPs.

Stalling just to stall makes no sense, I agree. But it is a valid tactic.
Edit: That is to say, stalling can be a valid tactic to winning against NPPs. However, just "blanket stalling" is not a path to victory.

If I have a player that doesn't know how to send large attacks and is constantly sending 3 or 4 sprinkles at a time, I'd rather they stalled and allow the other, more severe, attacks to get through instead.

For the "by not attacking them unless we are certain to kill them" statement, what you're looking for is a ship that has nothing but insta-kill SF'ers.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by majestrate at Jul 12, 2016 2:23:40 PM]
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Finaally



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If you have 3 or 4 NPPs attacking you and you stall, you keep them targeting you by stalling. This allows others to build the combos that will kill the NPPs.

I've already covered why this isn't a good argument previously in the post. But I'll say it once again.
1st: the 3-4 NPPs attacking you might not even have anything to attack you with. So you're stalling for nothing. Basically, it wouldn't make any different if you stalled or not. The only difference is that you didn't send any attacks during this time.
2nd: By stalling you might not provide enough fire power to finish the goon of and it will break and instantly kill one of your allies. But if you didn't stall you might provide enough fire power to finish off the goon and you'll save your ally.


 
If I have a player that doesn't know how to send large attacks and is constantly sending 3 or 4 sprinkles at a time, I'd rather they stalled and allow the other, more severe, attacks to get through instead.


 
For the "by not attacking them unless we are certain to kill them" statement, what you're looking for is a ship that has nothing but insta-kill SF'ers.

Not really, as I mentioned before, those players who do not use huge combos will overtime fill up the board of the goon and the one building will finish it off. I'd much more prefer that rather than having 2 people who build massive attacks. I would want a various of different kind of SFers, boths comboers and non comboers. Works great together. try making 2v5 frays and stuff and you'll find that it works best if they have different playstyle.
So what I'm saying is that I'm not looking for a ship that only has insta-kill SF'ers. I'm looking for people that will continues beat down the goon untilit's dead instead of fooling allies by thinking they have a team of 2 when it's only 1 of them attacking. (hope that made sense)
[Jul 12, 2016 2:49:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Finaally



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If you have 3 or 4 NPPs attacking you and you stall, you keep them targeting you by stalling. This allows others to build the combos that will kill the NPPs.


Also, I would most likely not stall in this situation (as I've found myself in many times before) and it has never been the cause of my death. Instead I usualy find a kill or two with the fire power I'm given by the sprinkles and other "attacks" the goons are sending me. Eventually the dots disappear from my face and I'm left all alone. If I stalled everytime I had multiple dots next to my face, I'm sure I would have lost some of the citadels.
[Jul 12, 2016 2:56:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Finaally wrote: 
I've already covered why this isn't a good argument previously in the post. But I'll say it once again.
1st: the 3-4 NPPs attacking you might not even have anything to attack you with. So you're stalling for nothing. Basically, it wouldn't make any different if you stalled or not. The only difference is that you didn't send any attacks during this time.
2nd: By stalling you might not provide enough fire power to finish the goon of and it will break and instantly kill one of your allies. But if you didn't stall you might provide enough fire power to finish off the goon and you'll save your ally.

I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm not sure you really understand how to effectively stall. If you have a number of NPPs targeting you, their attacks have to queue up. The more that are queued up against you, the fewer there are to send to the rest of your team.

Stalling is a strategy. You have to be able to build defensively but still do so with the ability to clear your board. It's not just "don't use the space bar, but do use every single breaker that shows up"
Finaally wrote: 
maj wrote: 
If I have a player that doesn't know how to send large attacks and is constantly sending 3 or 4 sprinkles at a time, I'd rather they stalled and allow the other, more severe, attacks to get through instead.

For the "by not attacking them unless we are certain to kill them" statement, what you're looking for is a ship that has nothing but insta-kill SF'ers.

Not really, as I mentioned before, those players who do not use huge combos will overtime fill up the board of the goon and the one building will finish it off. I'd much more prefer that rather than having 2 people who build massive attacks. I would want a various of different kind of SFers, boths comboers and non comboers. Works great together. try making 2v5 frays and stuff and you'll find that it works best if they have different playstyle.
So what I'm saying is that I'm not looking for a ship that only has insta-kill SF'ers. I'm looking for people that will continues beat down the goon untilit's dead instead of fooling allies by thinking they have a team of 2 when it's only 1 of them attacking. (hope that made sense)

You're contradicting yourself. This was in your previous post:

Finaally wrote: 
I had test runs as MAA on a junk where I use to solo defend even against 2 - 3 and sometimes even 4 (that's quiet hard though) and they rarely give you lethal attacks UNLESS you provide them the blocks they need. In which I've been trying to tell, is created by stalling players who doesn't aid in the attacks.

If you aren't sending insta-kills then how are you not feeding them with non-lethal attacks?

Finaally wrote: 
How come I never die due to attacks as one of the first when I never stall? How come I get the first kill (around 70% of the time) even if I have 2+ goons at me? Because I don't stall... I've never stalled (lie) and it has never hurt me..

I've died plenty of times both when stalling and when not stalling. I have to believe that you aren't accurately remembering every single fray you've been in. I find it impossible to believe that you've never been sent an insta-kill from an NPP when there were 3+ targeting you at the same time.
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[Jul 12, 2016 3:41:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Finaally



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I'm not trying to insult you, but I'm not sure you really understand how to effectively stall. If you have a number of NPPs targeting you, their attacks have to queue up. The more that are queued up against you, the fewer there are to send to the rest of your team.

Let me ask you a straight up question: If the attacks TOWARDS you aren't enough to actually kill you. Why are you stalling?

Just because you're stalling doesn't mean you soak up more attacks then you should have done anyway.



 
You're contradicting yourself. This was in your previous post:


Finaally wrote: 
I had test runs as MAA on a junk where I use to solo defend even against 2 - 3 and sometimes even 4 (that's quiet hard though) and they rarely give you lethal attacks UNLESS you provide them the blocks they need. In which I've been trying to tell, is created by stalling players who doesn't aid in the attacks.

 
If you aren't sending insta-kills then how are you not feeding them with non-lethal attacks?


I'm sorry, I'm confused. I've been explaining this a lot. If you know the mechanics it's not that hard. You kind of have to get it above that 35% mark, by sending whatever blocks you may like, singles and vegases won't matter. Once you've gotten to that stage you can finish it off by sending a bigger blow.

What that statement is refering to though is that even thou I'm targeted by 4 goons, only one of those will send me heavy attacks. Yes, correct, the one I'm attacking/feeding. The remaining 3 goons will only send smaller sprinkles for most part, until much later on.
So that statement was to prove that the goons aren't very dangerous unless you make them dangerous. I, for one, would say I have a pretty clear picture of how to handle goons so I could manage to do 1v4.

 
How come I never die due to attacks as one of the first when I never stall? How come I get the first kill (around 70% of the time) even if I have 2+ goons at me? Because I don't stall... I've never stalled (lie) and it has never hurt me..

 
I've died plenty of times both when stalling and when not stalling. I have to believe that you aren't accurately remembering every single fray you've been in. I find it impossible to believe that you've never been sent an insta-kill from an NPP when there were 3+ targeting you at the same time.


Once again I'm confused. This statement is refering to the start of the fray. "How come I never die as one of the first, even with 2+ goons on me".
Meaning: If you compare my contribution to someone who starts the fray by stalling (and we both have 2+ goons at us). I've killed one or two goons by the time that player starts contributing anything at all. And on the defensive part? He soaked just as much as me.
That's what that statement was refering to.

I'm sorry that my lack of language skill is getting in the way of making myself clear. Also sorry about the poorly written posts.. Not used to the whole coding part.. Somewhat confusing to me
[Jul 12, 2016 4:12:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

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I think as some have explained, stalling is a viable and effective tactic when used properly. The most important thing to have is clear instructions to crew and as little spam or contradictory messages as possible. The clearer you make your calls, the shorter the instructions are, the more people will follow them. With clear instructions, players will notice how effective following them is in helping the fray to be won. If there's too much confusion, then it's really not clear what exactly helped the team to win.

Shouting "STALL" on its own is just not going to work. There's specific times and situations where stalling works, but a call to everyone to stall won't be followed by some. I won't stall if there's no reason for me to. I'm an effective striker, so to stall is really to weaken my ability to effectively take down targets if I'm not under attack.

Stalling is most effective when your fastest fighters can tell you the upcoming frequency or lack of certain breakers. The longer you can prolong reaching the breaker shortage point, the more bots will KO themselves if they're not stalling. So encourage people who can SF well and get KO'd to feed back such information to the game chat as that can help the XO make more informed tactical calls.
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[Jul 13, 2016 3:58:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Finaally



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I think as some have explained, stalling is a viable and effective tactic when used properly. The most important thing to have is clear instructions to crew and as little spam or contradictory messages as possible. The clearer you make your calls, the shorter the instructions are, the more people will follow them. With clear instructions, players will notice how effective following them is in helping the fray to be won. If there's too much confusion, then it's really not clear what exactly helped the team to win.

Shouting "STALL" on its own is just not going to work. There's specific times and situations where stalling works, but a call to everyone to stall won't be followed by some. I won't stall if there's no reason for me to. I'm an effective striker, so to stall is really to weaken my ability to effectively take down targets if I'm not under attack.

Stalling is most effective when your fastest fighters can tell you the upcoming frequency or lack of certain breakers. The longer you can prolong reaching the breaker shortage point, the more bots will KO themselves if they're not stalling. So encourage people who can SF well and get KO'd to feed back such information to the game chat as that can help the XO make more informed tactical calls.

I do agree with what you're saying. My point though is that I do believe the citadel runs before the whole "stall" era was a lot better and easier. People are overusing it and think it's way more efficient then it really is. And to convince people otherwise I kinda have to drag it way to far or people will just ignore it. Hope that's understandable ^^
[Jul 13, 2016 5:30:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Your posts are fine and you've done a good job on clearing up confusions.

 
Let me ask you a straight up question: If the attacks TOWARDS you aren't enough to actually kill you. Why are you stalling?

Just because you're stalling doesn't mean you soak up more attacks then you should have done anyway.

I tend not to stall until I start getting bigger attacks. Because I share this belief. If my board is empty/mostly empty (depends on the situation, have to flex to what attacks are being sent), then I'm not stalling, but I do build defensively if I'm being targeted.

That said, there have been times where I've had an NPP target me, I stalled, NPP threw quite a few combos and targeted someone else, I continued stalling, NPP re-targeted me before it sent "lethal" attacks at the other player.

So, yes, I believe it is possible that allowing attacks to queue up against you can be of great benefit to other players, especially if you're technically dead but haven't hit that point in the queue of attacks waiting for you.

 
I do agree with what you're saying. My point though is that I do believe the citadel runs before the whole "stall" era was a lot better and easier. People are overusing it and think it's way more efficient then it really is. And to convince people otherwise I kinda have to drag it way to far or people will just ignore it. Hope that's understandable ^^

Yes, completely agree with you on this. That's what I mean when I write
 
Stalling is a strategy. You have to be able to build defensively but still do so with the ability to clear your board. It's not just "don't use the space bar, but do use every single breaker that shows up"


Side note, the "stall with 2/3+" concept is from well before Atlantis existed.
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Finaally



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Side note, the "stall with 2/3+" concept is from well before Atlantis existed.

Yes but there was this era when suddenly EVERYONE started to apply it in every citadel run. Almost as if it was a fashion thing, everyone needed to do it ^^
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EmpressTamar

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Re: Thoughts on stalling in citadel runs Reply to this Post
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Side note, the "stall with 2/3+" concept is from well before Atlantis existed.

Yes but there was this era when suddenly EVERYONE started to apply it in every citadel run. Almost as if it was a fashion thing, everyone needed to do it ^^

There's a reason when I MAA that I tell people to stall when teamed on and to use their best judgement if it's time to stall or not. Stalling can be very useful in the right situations (eg. Taking longer to die with several goons on you so that your teammates can build, or stalling out a breaker shortage to watch goons hit the same shortage and kill themselves), but it should not be used all the time. If you have two or three goons teamed on you and you're decent enough at SF to be on a cit run in the first place, you should be able to send off decent combos while dealing with the swords those goons are sending you. Only difference is you build lower. And while yes, those attacks could be used as fodder for the goons, that's why you would never solo in using that strategy. Better to team with two other people who can hopefully time their similar attacks with yours. Or what I'll often do in that case is ghost on a goon that's nearly dead, to ensure the kill and not provide fodder for an empty board goon.
TL;DR stall when the situation calls for it, not because you've got two dots next to your name
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