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Notsizzly

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Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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This seemed like an appropriate place to discuss over this issue. I find it interesting, to hear if the rest of the playerbase disagrees with me when it comes to permanent bans: should there be only temporary bans in Puzzle Pirates?

My opinion (so far, but maybe it'll change if really good arguments are presented?) is a simple yes, permanent bans are for the good of the game.

There are rules, and if they're broken, Three Rings can choose to punish for those. Having rules is mandatory, otherwise the game wouldn't be playable and it would hurt their business. Someone might say that all that the permanent bans do, is make people ban evade. If they removed permanent bans, I honestly believe it wouldn't change a thing - if you're willing to evade your ban, you will do so no matter how long it is. If there wouldn't be permanent bans, what would be a purpose of a ban anyway? If the bans were, say, 2 weeks max, people would eventually complain that 2 weeks is way too long, anyway.

So then, there's so many ban evaders, and if there wasn't for those, this game would've been dead loooooong ago, they're saving the game! -Really? I don't think so. It's only so many of us players who use the forums, and even less uses the parley. It is not a good representation of the playerbase that we actually have in-game. It doesn't really show what keeps the game alive - in fact, it's not the ban evading blockade navvers or pillage runners that are giving to the oceans so much, that we even have a game to log onto. It just isn't that simple - think about the jobbers you need for your pillage or blockade, where do they come from? Aren't they giving to the game as much as everyone else? Isn't that one player who does nothing but plays poker giving to the ocean as well? I'm not saying that I don't recognize the efforts of someone wanting to run a six hours atlantis, I'm saying every player has their share on saving the game, keeping it alive.

The next point I want to argue against: the reasons for bans, that some think are silly. Whenever someone tells us their story behind the ban, it's always one-sided, the opinion of the person telling it. We've seen multiple cases where the story was quite different when told by Three Rings - and the ban was deserved. I can believe only so much when someone shares the reason on the forums, because...well, I don't know the exact truth. Thus the reasons behind the bans might seem silly for us (iz only cussd 1 tiemss!!11!1) while the truth might be, that they already had four temporary bans given before the permanent ban hit their head. It may or may not apply to everyone - I am admitting myself, that some of the stories that players have posted on the forums, the reason has seemed silly or the ban unfair. But at the same time, no matter how much I may like the person, I'm trying to remember that I really do not know what reaaaaaally happened, since I can not access anything to verify the story. Even if the person happened to be my much beloved hearty.

On another thread, it was pointed out that people might change and what they did in the past, might've been stupid and they wouldn't do it again and/or learned from their mistake. True that. Although, if the person has been evading ever since, it is not exactly showing that the person is willing to follow the rules now and has changed - it's contradicting it. If the person hasn't evaded and stayed off the game, then there's always the possibility to email Three Rings and ask the ban to be lifted. We've seen this happening as well.

There's other points too, but this post is already long enough. Which reminds me...

tl;dr - I don't think Three Rings should get rid of permanent bans. Do you?

5 poe to the first person to point out all my grammatical errors, due to English not being my native language.
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[Apr 3, 2013 3:48:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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tl;dr - I don't think Three Rings should get rid of permanent bans. Do you?

No. The biggest argument I've heard for getting rid of them boils down to "I learned my lesson and deserve another chance!"

I don't agree with it. I had a brother who did that-- successfully-- with the any organization he could lie, cheat, or steal from, including school and the legal system, for years. As mentioned,
 
Whenever someone tells us their story behind the ban, it's always one-sided, the opinion of the person telling it. We've seen multiple cases where the story was quite different when told by Three Rings - and the ban was deserved.

I'll add: these excuses always seem just like what my brother would hand out. It's not my fault. I didn't realize it would go like that. Is this really so bad? I deserve another chance. Or whatever.


Or I can reference the large number of employees I had who gave similar excuses. Without fail, every time I gave someone who deserved to be fired a second chance, I still had to fire them within six weeks, and usually far less. Because they figured "Oh, hey, what I did wasn't so bad after all, was it? After all, he didn't fire me for it."

Ultimately, there needs to be a final solution to troublemakers in any organization. One that's a deterrent for the cautious or rule-abiding members, and is also a good way to remove the seriously non-rule-abiding.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Apr 3, 2013 4:39:34 AM]
[Apr 3, 2013 4:38:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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If all the SMH navvers are ban evaders, and we suddenly and magically got rid of all ban evaders, maybe I could load a baghla pillage again. I wouldn't mind that at all.
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Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
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Aeternis

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I have never been banned. So I will still be there to load smh's.
And on the topic: Keep permanent bans. And don't start to make death penalty comparisons. (again)
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[Apr 3, 2013 5:42:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tloser

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Without reading through your full post Siz, short answer, no.

Although before I argue, I'll let everyone know, I'm a chronic ban evader, so there is a sense of bias here.

I was banned a while ago for what I can make out as theft, came back to the game about a year ago, not knowing, and since through many pleas have just come to the conclusion the only way I can play is through evasion. I still buy dubs, I still do whatever, because I like the game and would play even it is for 2 days before getting Galene's ban hammer in my arse.

Although I haven't broken any ToS in about 12months, I'm still getting banned for a little measly thing, probably 2k from a sloop coffers.

But meh, gg, I'll continue to evade <3
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Tloser on Emerald
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[Apr 3, 2013 5:42:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pixulayted

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Keep banning them. Do etttttt.


Why?
Because Why not. The player base is already beyond repair, this just quickens the inevitable.
[Apr 3, 2013 6:30:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Keep banning them. Do etttttt.


Why?
Because Why not. The player base is already beyond repair, this just quickens the inevitable.


I'm fine with this. It eventually means more eggs for me. AhahaahHAhAahHAHaHah.
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[Apr 3, 2013 6:39:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
upgrade431

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How does a thread about permanent bans remain civil, and the moment enforcing the forum rules, all hell breaks loose. It's basically the same thing as in-game bans minus the /complain.
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-Upgradde on Cerulean and Emerald Ocean

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[Apr 3, 2013 6:45:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aethera21

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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I am also surprised (and pleased!) that this thread is so reasonable half a dozen posts in, even with a ban evader posting.

There wasa very long thread about this in Cerulean Parley not too long ago. A lot of arguments for and against permanent bans, with specific discussion of whether Evasion should be a bannable offense.

I personally believe we have to keep permanent bans. From what we've seen of people being Cephalopwnd in the past, most people who say "my first offense and I've been banned!" actually have a history of temp bans and other problems. Ban evasion is sticky. There are definitely people who ban evade for years without further problems, but they are still breaking the rules just by evading, and I'm not sure how to get around that. We can't be doing parole hearings.
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[Apr 3, 2013 11:23:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pixulayted

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If you ban evade for years without a problem, obviously you learned your lesson because you aren't breaking rules anymore. Enough said.
[Apr 3, 2013 11:38:26 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aethera21

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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If you ban evade for years without a problem, obviously you learned your lesson because you aren't breaking rules anymore. Enough said.


The response to this is always the same: they are breaking the ban evasion rule. Even if they break no other rules, they's still chosen to break that one. That's what sticky.

How long does someone ban evade before they're considered ok? If we say ban evasion isn't a bannable offense, then we have to wait until someone is caught screwing up in some other way. For those who don't break another rule, we're fine. But for the others...If your ships were all emptied by a known ban evader, would you be ok with that, or would you be screaming at OOO for letting him or her play?

The other problem here is that if you make it so that a permanent ban is just an account ban, it becomes less of a punishment. Those who just don't care about the rules can just keep making new accounts and buying dubs, and then starting over again when their account is banned for whatever reason.
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[Apr 3, 2013 12:28:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TexasBeesh

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Permanent bans - yes or no?

YES

I don't want people that cheat, scam and are down right unpleasant (harassment, vulgar, spam, etc..) playing. I know that there are those that do play and are banned for cheating and scamming and then ban evade only for the cycle to continue.

At least OOO makes it a little harder on them by having these bans. Anything they have collected on the account gets locked and they can't access it.

Eventually these obnoxious people are weeded out and leave on their own growing tired of the cycle.

As far as the ban evaders that have been doing it for years causing no trouble, fine...they are causing no harm. As long as they are being good, and keeping a clean nose (not that we have them), no alarms should be raised anyway for them to be found out.

Most of the sob stories on the forums turn out to have a long history of misbehavior. I don't think OOO takes bans lightly. Mistakes are made, as we are human and going thru the proper channels is the way to go about getting a ban lifted.

Keep the permanent bans to keep people in check.
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Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean
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[Apr 3, 2013 1:01:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pixulayted

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Okay, your first one is irrelevant. Ban evader or not, no one can steal from you. Either you clicked: the trade box, or the unlock vessel button.

For your second reason: they can limit the number of "free accounts"(ones who haven't bought dubs) so why can't they just limit your accounts in general to the one that's banned, and instead of a perma ban, a week? Month?
However I don't know if that can be avoided with google untaint powers(I don't approve of untainting computers but I doubt there's a banned player who has not googled how to).


Edit: someone posted before me.


Also, here's my new proposal: lessen the amount of reasons for perm bans and length considerably the time of temp bans/suspensions for the reasons removed.)
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Pixulayted at Apr 3, 2013 1:12:00 PM]
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thylawrence2

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I don't think it's a matter of "yes or no" to permanent bans. That makes the issue far too simple. I've always been for permanent bans - but only under extreme circumstances. This is a matter of defining what truly merits a permanent ban. It is something that OOO and the playerbase must be able to agree on in the vast majority of situations. Sadly, I don't think this has often been the case.
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Ytirri

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I don't think it's a matter of "yes or no" to permanent bans. That makes the issue far too simple. I've always been for permanent bans - but only under extreme circumstances. This is a matter of defining what truly merits a permanent ban. It is something that OOO and the playerbase must be able to agree on in the vast majority of situations. Sadly, I don't think this has often been the case.

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[Apr 3, 2013 1:29:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pixulayted

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I don't think it's a matter of "yes or no" to permanent bans. That makes the issue far too simple. I've always been for permanent bans - but only under extreme circumstances. This is a matter of defining what truly merits a permanent ban. It is something that OOO and the playerbase must be able to agree on in the vast majority of situations. Sadly, I don't think this has often been the case.


Exactly as I said, perm bans should be in place, but not some of the things they are used for.
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BobJanova

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I've administered a game before, and I've seen how what gets posted in 'please unban me' threads is very unrepresentative.

Permanent bans should be an exception, something for people who've really shown they can't be a positive influence on the game. I think that's how OOO administer them; temporary suspensions certainly seem to be a lot more common.
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Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
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[Apr 3, 2013 1:45:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Art imitates life... i find it very strange that this same debate is going on in the USA Congress... the topic? Illegal immigrants. The arguments for and against amnesty"
For: They've been here a while and not broken any rules - their kids have grown up here. They should be allowed to stay as guest workers.
Against: They broke the rules simply by coming here illegally, therefore there should be no reward for rule breaking, regardless of their behavior since arrival.

For the USA players... I wonder if this thread could be used as a straw poll for public opinion on illegal immigration and amnesty. The ban evasion topic is so nearly identical, it's scary.
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Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
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SO, Boochin' Drunks

Pizzahutpete everywhere, thanks to the merge
[Apr 3, 2013 1:49:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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I believe Faulkston mentioned in another thread, some time ago, that the popularity of an idea amongst the players, isn't necessarily meaningful at all when Three Rings decides about what they'll implement into the game. You may disagree and say that doesn't apply here, but it won't change the fact that Three Rings can decide on what they wish to do, as they wish. This means that whatever I, you, your neighbor or your neighbor's dog thinks about what merits a permanent ban, doesn't matter.

Although, if it would or it does, then I'd say Three Rings is doing good job currently.

Making the issue simple, by 'yes or no', is easier than going on and creating exact rules of 'in what case' should there be a permanent ban - and oh my god, if us players are to have a say about that. Besides, note that it's likely - and no I'm not saying I know this for sure, so you can put the phone down and leave your lawyer alone - that they already do check on case-by-case if a request to lift a permanent ban appears. Or, if they're handing out one.

In case someone thinks that this discussion could possibly have any kind of effect on Three Rings' policy about bans...probably won't. At least that wasn't my intention and/or need - I just want to see what the community says about it.

Edit: I need someone to tell me why I feel like this about this issue. What do I care, really? I also want to point out what xelto said earlier: there needs to always be the last authoritative figure to say the last word, and the ultimate solution for the troublemakers. This being said, this figure needs to be the one who sets the rules and the ones to follow those (here, us players) can either accept or go somewhere else. Without this, it would be a world of such freedom, that it would collapse on its own, well, freedom. Even if the playerbase would somehow manage to get the majority of it to set rules of where a permanent ban should be used, the sub-rules of those would be endless - and all of these rules would need to be revoked time to time, and they still wouldn't be fair for all.
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~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Notsizzly at Apr 3, 2013 2:14:32 PM]
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TexasBeesh

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lessen the amount of reasons for perm bans


Hey Pix, what are the bans used for that you think they should not be?

I think the ones list in the ToS are good ones for banning but I understand all situations are different.

Stealing and scamming are at the top of the No No list.

Spirit of the game is quite airy, but I understand the airiness of it. I think it would be way too difficult to actually produce a list and every situation is unique.

It covers a broad spectrum (CYA). It's in the legal part of the Tos.
 

engage in any behaviour that is contrary to the 'spirit of the game' as defined by Three Rings in its sole discretion.


I mean it even says all piratey at the top:

Avast! Study these well my friend, for ye be bound by the terms of the account written below.

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Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean
LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH
Always looking for Pollack Sloops!
[Apr 3, 2013 1:58:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aethera21

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I'm sorry, so you're saying if you unlocked a ship, you would never complain if I was in your crew and took stuff? I don't think that's an feeling shared by many. We do our best to protect ourselves of course - 8 years and I've never had anything stolen from me, despite most of my ships being unlocked. But that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of bans for theft - trust is something that can be abused.

I didn't say Permabans for everyone. I think they should be rare, and I think they ARE rare, actually. I just said Yes over No. We can discuss specifics but I highly doubt we'll have much effect on policy. Just seemed like an opinion poll.

Pete, I don't think it's a good idea for us to turn this thread into a political straw poll. Maybe try doing so in Shore Leave?
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[Apr 3, 2013 2:10:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Pixulayted

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I believe Faulkston mentioned in another thread, some time ago, that the popularity of an idea amongst the players, isn't necessarily meaningful at all when Three Rings decides about what they'll implement into the game. You may disagree and say that doesn't apply here, but it won't change the fact that Three Rings can decide on what they wish to do, as they wish. This means that whatever I, you, your neighbor or your neighbor's dog thinks about ______, doesn't matter.


Inb4welcometogamedesign.
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thylawrence2

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I believe Faulkston mentioned in another thread, some time ago, that the popularity of an idea amongst the players, isn't necessarily meaningful at all when Three Rings decides about what they'll implement into the game. You may disagree and say that doesn't apply here, but it won't change the fact that Three Rings can decide on what they wish to do, as they wish. This means that whatever I, you, your neighbor or your neighbor's dog thinks about what merits a permanent ban, doesn't matter.

Although, if it would or it does, then I'd say Three Rings is doing good job currently.

Making the issue simple, by 'yes or no', is easier than going on and creating exact rules of 'in what case' should there be a permanent ban - and oh my god, if us players are to have a say about that. Besides, note that it's likely - and no I'm not saying I know this for sure, so you can put the phone down and leave your lawyer alone - that they already do check on case-by-case if a request to lift a permanent ban appears. Or, if they're handing out one.


Is there a point to this rambling? We are just voicing opinions, like you asked. I might also add my opinion that everything you say oozes with condescending cynicism. Sometimes I wonder if you respect any opinion besides your own.

I didn't say they should create rules, or any other extrapolations you derived from my earlier post.
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All about Tothemoonn! of the Emerald Ocean

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by thylawrence2 at Apr 3, 2013 3:20:22 PM]
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Tloser

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Whether this is relevant or not.

Maybe perm bans should remain in place, but only for extreme cases, I mean someone stealing like 2-5k from a ship coffers doesn't come under what I would say extreme.(HAI O0o)

But, in all honesty, I don't think ban evasion should be bannable. Again, this opinion may be bias, but honestly, if someone comes back to play and have no issues with rule breaking once they've learnt there lesson, then why not let them play again?

Just off the top of my head, Wireless, he's ban evaded for a while now, not breaking any rules. And now hes banned for outing himself as Zaq(his former banned account) and yet he had learnt what ever lesson he needed to and moved on to Wire, who is now banned for evasion.

INB4
I think things like that kill the playerbase, now Wire outed himself because he retired, so we already had lost him, but thats not the point.
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Tloser on Emerald
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Notsizzly

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I believe Faulkston mentioned in another thread, some time ago, that the popularity of an idea amongst the players, isn't necessarily meaningful at all when Three Rings decides about what they'll implement into the game. You may disagree and say that doesn't apply here, but it won't change the fact that Three Rings can decide on what they wish to do, as they wish. This means that whatever I, you, your neighbor or your neighbor's dog thinks about what merits a permanent ban, doesn't matter.

Although, if it would or it does, then I'd say Three Rings is doing good job currently.

Making the issue simple, by 'yes or no', is easier than going on and creating exact rules of 'in what case' should there be a permanent ban - and oh my god, if us players are to have a say about that. Besides, note that it's likely - and no I'm not saying I know this for sure, so you can put the phone down and leave your lawyer alone - that they already do check on case-by-case if a request to lift a permanent ban appears. Or, if they're handing out one.


Is there a point to this rambling? We are just voicing opinions, like you asked. I might also add my opinion that everything you say oozes with condescending cynicism. Sometimes I wonder if you respect any opinion besides your own.

I didn't say they should create rules, or any other extrapolations you derived from my earlier post.


I can't change how you take what is posted - if you take it your way, then so be it. You also have your right to see me the way you want.

To me, there's relevance - if there isn't for you, then all I can do is shrug. It won't make a difference anyway, or does it?
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~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
Avatar by Aerecura <3
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Notsizzly at Apr 3, 2013 4:10:54 PM]
[Apr 3, 2013 4:10:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Williekillme

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Heres what I think yes there should be bans of all types issued by a forum of representatives 1 player from each ocean and the OM's to decide the fate of the player. This would allow a fair shake to all rule breakers I think it would result in less permanent bans and more temp bans this will allow a player base that may grow again which we need. I love this game and don't want to see it die a slow death like its fated for at the moment. Player reps from oceans could be voted on they must not be evaders and most not have had any black spots also must have been active for at least 2 years. This is best fix I can think of for the game other that a few mechanics that need changing.
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Williekillme on all oceans
Prince of MMW
[Apr 3, 2013 8:44:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tloser

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Heres what I think yes there should be bans of all types issued by a forum of representatives 1 player from each ocean and the OM's to decide the fate of the player. This would allow a fair shake to all rule breakers I think it would result in less permanent bans and more temp bans this will allow a player base that may grow again which we need. I love this game and don't want to see it die a slow death like its fated for at the moment. Player reps from oceans could be voted on they must not be evaders and most not have had any black spots also must have been active for at least 2 years. This is best fix I can think of for the game other that a few mechanics that need changing.


This would then shadow these 'representatives' from bans or temp bans then? Or is there some way around this?

I don't personally think it's a great idea, nor do I think 0oO would ever implement it.
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Tloser on Emerald
~
Royal in Hand Full Of Booty
[Apr 3, 2013 9:37:47 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aeternis

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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1) I doubt you can compare a game ban with staying rights in a country. One thing really affects the lives of those people. A YPP ban just effects a few hours of leisure time a well.
2) Pix, you day that you are for permanent bans but against ban evasion being a banable offense. Actually I don't see the point of banning someone if he is allowed to come back to the game till he's banned again.
3) I do not want other players decide about bans. First of all there are probably too many complains every day and on the other hand I'm Ok worth an OM reading my chat if I get complained bit having other players read my chat is nothing I can approve, especially as I know the OMs keep it to themselves as their job depends on it while a player just would lose his special status if it comes out. And I believe that those players would be harassed after every ban.
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Locu on Cerulean and Opal (and some other Oceans)

Check the Rack at Phakey's Tailor Stall on Tinga for nice clothes!
Locu's Weaving Stall on Tinga and Cranberry

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[Apr 4, 2013 2:22:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Arryotter1

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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In the past when many high end players received bans for trivial stuff due to their social history, I would be more for reevaluating the permaban system. Now, though, I'd guess that people permabanned these days generally deserve it. Botting is at epidemic levels and not enough is being done to stop it.

That said, I think ban evaders that don't break any rules should be given a pass. The threat of banning doesn't discourage players who act in harmful manners, e.g. those who cheat/steal/etc to sell PoE for real life money. They are going to break the rules regardless of how you treat evaders. But evaders that don't break any rules while evading should be treated as any other player. At least on the high end of the game, ban evaders actively facilitate much game action. Yeah, it doesn't really pass the sniff test, but I think its a decent manner to fix the inconsistent ban/appeal process adopted by OOO.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Arryotter1 at Apr 4, 2013 5:08:50 AM]
[Apr 4, 2013 5:06:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Notsizzly

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Re: Permanent bans - yes or no? Reply to this Post
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Players getting to decide on bans (or any punishments) would quite likely be terminated by Three Rings anyway, considering all the privacy issues?

I'm beginning to see the point of why a ban evader, who hasn't during the evasion broken anymore rules, should get a different treatment. On a fundamental level, it still is not quite right though.
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~ Sizzly of Emerald ~
Avatar by Aerecura <3
[Apr 4, 2013 6:27:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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