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Ezder

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Regarding sinking blockades Reply to this Post
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Sinking is more fun, right? We all know that, we have heard it many times, often from people who also claim to love blockades. Most flags loudly declare their love for sinking blockades, and state that their defenses will be sinking ("Because it's more fun") or that they hope that their attack blockades will be sinking ("Because it's more fun").

I will go against the current, and state that I don't like sinking at all. By doing so, I probably make sure that my flag will never get a non-sinking defense, and I think that is the reason why this critisism is rarely heard. That's fine, though. We can take it, even though we don't like it.

So, why are sinking blockades bad?


Overall blockade costs

By adding the cost of replacing sunk ships, the overall costs of blockades increase. This means that it takes longer time for a flag to recover after a (big) blockade, each flag can do fewer blockades and thus, fewer blockades can happen.

Reduced penalty to overjobbing

In a non-sinking blockade, the cost is almost directly proportional to the number of jobbers. That means that even though a flag can use overjobbing to buy a win, they have to pay for it. Their blockade costs will be higher than that of the losing (outjobbed) flag and that is a bad strategy in the long run, especially against an opponent with even financial strength. This should discourage overjobbing, and make "fair" (even jobbing) blockades more likely to happen, for financial reasons.

In a sinking blockade, on the other hand, the difference in jobber pay can easily be cancelled out by the fact that it's easier to sink ships when you outship your opponent, and/or have more jobbers on each ship. That means that the outjobbing flag will get a positive sink score, and not necessarily pay more overall than the outjobbed flag. That way, outjobbing defenses are suddenly economically smart - assuming that they are sinking.

And why are they good?


Well, there must be some reason why sinking is "more fun", right? I'll try to list the reasons I can come up with, and my reply to them.

Spinning ships?

One could argue that the spinning ship graphic is nicer than the rocking, fading ship graphic. But even if so, is it really worth the downside with fewer blockades, and fewer "fair" blockades?

Ego?

By asking ordinary people, scientists have found that a vast majority of the population are above average poker players, above average drivers and have above average IQ. Without any research to back it up, I will assume that the same goes for YPP blockade navers. And of course, knowing that you are much better than your opponent and he will sink more, sinking may be tempting. Your opponent probably thinks similarly, and with some creativity in calculating the sink score, you will both be right!

Wars?

A good sinking war is fun, if you're on the winning side. The biggest losers in war are less than serious flags and crews, where ranks are given out like candy to keep and gain members, and no officer training is given. But wars also hit hard against crews, where new players are allowed as jobbers, and maybe eventually officer trained. A ship manned with new player stands no chance against an elite hunt ship. At the same time, these crews are what this game needs to stay alive - if the new players have nowhere to go, because everyone jobs with stat reqs, they will quit the game before they even really started playing.

But, let's assume you ignore that and want the war anyway. I would too, I'm not going to lie. Then you have 72 hours or something like that to return the war dec after the blockade, so wanting the war is really no reason to dec back before the blockade, and make it sinking.

Discouraging attacks!

This one actually holds. While most flags claim to love sinking blockades, it is usually not true. When a flag chooses a target to blockade, it is more likely to choose a flag that doesn't make sinking defenses. Therefore, if flag A and B have a habit of sinking defenses, and flag C doesn't make sinking, flag C will get a lot more drops than flag A and B. Don't think for a second that flag A and B aren't aware of this little "side effect" of their "fun" sinking defenses! And sure, it works, but is it really fair to claim to love blockades, while taking measures to make sure you don't have to do any?

Summary

Sinking defenses is a way to discourage attacks, or to be able to auto-win by outjobbing without having to pay extra for it. Any other reason is a lie. It may be a fair tactic to use if your only goal is to keep your islands as uncontested as possible but considering the downsides of sinking, it makes no sense to claim to love blockades at the same time as you make them sinking.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 1, 2012 5:03:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joshuawhelan

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I agree! It's fun from a jobber's perspective but not so much from the perspective of the flag running a blockade.

With an average cost of replacing sinks these days in a 3 round blockade costing anywhere up to 2,000,000, I find them largely unsustainable. (This is also rising, as WF/WBs increase in price in the inns now that people are finally adjusting to the dub prices)

I feel the roots of the popularity of sinking blockades are fairly easy to trace. Look back five years ago and all the big flags on Viridian made it clear that any blockades against them would be sinking. This was done as a deterrent to potential attacks - As hiding from blockades became unpopular they suddenly used the cover story of 'they find it more fun'.

Many years later, new flags have misinterpreted the reason for sinking blockades being so popular. Now, you have new flags running around saying how 'pro' they are and claim they can out-nav their opponents, then suddenly realised they've just lost several million PoE's worth of ships to their ego.

In recent weeks, I've admitted multiple times that the reason I've lost a blockade is because my blockade team was simply outdone by the opposition. I've found that most active flags now find it impossible to admit that their skills were behind their defeat. They instead look for excuses such as being outjobbed. The number of flags that blame move-spying for losing a blockade is also ridiculously high. If you take in to consideration how difficult it would be to organise to make it change the result of an entire blockade, and the fact that most navigators 'LSM', there's no possibility whatsoever of move-spying coming in to the occasion for sinks.

TL;DR version: The reason for sinking blockades has quickly shifted from being a deterrent to island sit as long as possible to being an ego trip from the kids you'll find blockading today/
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[Oct 1, 2012 5:26:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Yes Josh, I forgot that the jobbers like their fish and injuries! However, those are easy to get in SMHs these days anyway.

I also forgot two very obvious points, one against and one for sinking blockades.

Against: New flags/navers

Sinking blockades penalize new flags, and the use of less experienced staff, because not only the island and some jobber poe is at stake, but also the fleet. Newer navers will sink more, that's a fact, so the downsides of sinking apply even more to them.

In the same way, sinking also makes it a lot harder to just "get your feet wet" in a blockade, where you maybe let the defender outjob rather than to push up the pay, accepting the loss in order to gain some experience. Simply, instead of paying a little poe to try out blockading, you'll get your fleet sunk if you don't fight with pay to not get outshipped. That means that if sinking is the norm, flags who can't afford to keep up in a paywar and/or lose their fleet can't blockade at all.

(Sinking also kills all strategies to win while outjobbed by using small and undermanned ships, but that's more of a personal preference of mine than something more general.)

For: Poe/dub sink

YPP faces serious inflation. Jobber poe in blockades is not a poe sink, it only redistributes poe. Sunk ships, on the other hand, is a sink and, I have to admit, a desperately needed one. I'd still prefer other poe sinks over sinking blockades, though.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 1, 2012 12:15:28 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Sinking defenses is a way to discourage attacks, or to be able to auto-win by outjobbing without having to pay extra for it. Any other reason is a lie. It may be a fair tactic to use if your only goal is to keep your islands as uncontested as possible but considering the downsides of sinking, it makes no sense to claim to love blockades at the same time as you make them sinking.

I still think the properties of "fun" out-trumphes whatever arguement can be made against sinking blockades. Of course it's not always fun to pay for one, but for us people who generally don't have to pay for the blockades we participate in, it's definately superior.

So to counter your argument, sinking blockades are more fun for the majority of the participants, which since you're playing a game surely has to be the main focus. And remember that every once in a while, people dislike each other, and then the sinking blockades become even more fun!
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by warp11 at Oct 1, 2012 1:59:19 PM]
[Oct 1, 2012 1:58:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Re: Regarding sinking blockades Reply to this Post
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Sinking defenses is a way to discourage attacks, or to be able to auto-win by outjobbing without having to pay extra for it. Any other reason is a lie. It may be a fair tactic to use if your only goal is to keep your islands as uncontested as possible but considering the downsides of sinking, it makes no sense to claim to love blockades at the same time as you make them sinking.

I still think the properties of "fun" out-trumphes whatever arguement can be made against sinking blockades. Of course it's not always fun to pay for one, but for us people who generally don't have to pay for the blockades we participate in, it's definately superior.

So to counter your argument, sinking blockades are more fun for the majority of the participants, which since you're playing a game surely has to be the main focus. And remember that every once in a while, people dislike each other, and then the sinking blockades become even more fun!

Why is it more fun if it's sinking?
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 1, 2012 2:04:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
randomact

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There was also once was a time when flag A didn't like flag B, and wanted to deplete flag B's resources - a sinking blockade is a good start at doing that. You don't see that kind of grudge blockade as often these days, but every now and then it pops up.
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[Oct 1, 2012 2:11:59 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Aeternis

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I tend to do sinking cades rather with a lower pay than non-sinking cades as there's the chance to get an injury.
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[Oct 1, 2012 2:21:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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There was also once was a time when flag A didn't like flag B, and wanted to deplete flag B's resources - a sinking blockade is a good start at doing that. You don't see that kind of grudge blockade as often these days, but every now and then it pops up.

Of course. That is just another form of material attrition. The main difference is that it can easily be done to flags which play fair, whereas material attrition with jobber pay can only be done to paywarring flags, who enjoy winning by outjobbing. Nonetheless, the later form of attrition is often condemned as immoral by the same people who praise sinking blockades. To me, that logic is flawed.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 1, 2012 2:25:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jackingg

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Re: Regarding sinking blockades Reply to this Post
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There was also once was a time when flag A didn't like flag B, and wanted to deplete flag B's resources - a sinking blockade is a good start at doing that. You don't see that kind of grudge blockade as often these days, but every now and then it pops up.

Of course. That is just another form of material attrition. The main difference is that it can easily be done to flags which play fair, whereas material attrition with jobber pay can only be done to paywarring flags, who enjoy winning by outjobbing. Nonetheless, the later form of attrition is often condemned as immoral by the same people who praise sinking blockades. To me, that logic is flawed.


Sinking is an even field, you sink I sink we all sink.

Outjobbing by paywar is pretty obviously one sided. AND is easily and often done to fair-play flags by not so fair-play flags.
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Ivytheblade

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jackingg at Oct 1, 2012 9:45:48 PM]
[Oct 1, 2012 9:44:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Why is it more fun if it's sinking?

The stakes and more often than not, the turnout of jobbers, are higher.

Also, material attrition can always be done, the only requirement is that you have more funds than the opposition.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by warp11 at Oct 1, 2012 10:47:11 PM]
[Oct 1, 2012 10:46:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Woohoo I missed my bus so I have time to reply properly.

You're saying that sinking blockades penalize new flags. Though in order to have new flags in the first place, you need to inspire people to get involved in the blockading game (otherwise who would create these new flags?). The hardcore, top tier blockading is what makes people want to get into it. Without that, you'll have a considerably smaller influx of new people in the blockading scene.

Maybe it was just me, but the only reason I put down the kind of time and effort into getting somewhat decent at what we call blockading was to be regarded with the same kind of respect that Daquan, Dalnoth, and all the other top knotch navers I looked up to back when I was making my way upwards.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
[Oct 1, 2012 11:00:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Ivy wrote: 
 
 
There was also once was a time when flag A didn't like flag B, and wanted to deplete flag B's resources - a sinking blockade is a good start at doing that. You don't see that kind of grudge blockade as often these days, but every now and then it pops up.

Of course. That is just another form of material attrition. The main difference is that it can easily be done to flags which play fair, whereas material attrition with jobber pay can only be done to paywarring flags, who enjoy winning by outjobbing. Nonetheless, the later form of attrition is often condemned as immoral by the same people who praise sinking blockades. To me, that logic is flawed.


Sinking is an even field, you sink I sink we all sink.

Outjobbing by paywar is pretty obviously one sided. AND is easily and often done to fair-play flags by not so fair-play flags.

Sinking is not even. Outjob your opponent, and he will sink more, everything else even.

In the second sentence, I think you misunderstood me. I was not talking about the outjobbing/paywaring, but about the countermeasure when you're up against a financially stronger flag, that insists to push you over with pay: Drop repeatedly, and watch them pay maybe 50% more than you do to buy their defense each week. Eventually, they'll start hurting, and hopefully lean towards more reasonable defenses. That is material attrition, and that is what is condemned as immoral, rather than the overjobbing as such. The tactic works in non-sinking, but if the overjobbing defender makes the blockade sinking, they can keep pushing you off the board with pay while sinking your ships, and the equation isn't as nice any more. (This is pretty much just another wording of the second argument in the OP.)

Dahlgren wrote: 
Also, material attrition can always be done, the only requirement is that you have more funds than the opposition.

That may be where our disagreement lies then. Eww, what you're insinuating is not material attrition in my book, it's pushing over with pay. Totally different thing. What I call material attrition falls completely flat against a flag, that allows even jobbing. Just can't be done, and there is no reason to do it either. (Unless you're just after buying the island but as I see material attrition, it's done to punish overjobbing flags and (if they have brain enough to get the math) teach them that their strategy is not a good one, not primarily to gain an island.)

Dahlgren wrote: 
Woohoo I missed my bus so I have time to reply properly.

You're saying that sinking blockades penalize new flags. Though in order to have new flags in the first place, you need to inspire people to get involved in the blockading game (otherwise who would create these new flags?). The hardcore, top tier blockading is what makes people want to get into it. Without that, you'll have a considerably smaller influx of new people in the blockading scene.

Maybe it was just me, but the only reason I put down the kind of time and effort into getting somewhat decent at what we call blockading was to be regarded with the same kind of respect that Daquan, Dalnoth, and all the other top knotch navers I looked up to back when I was making my way upwards.

Congrats!

And, that is your story. Maybe your reason. It's not mine and I think for most people who actually pay for the fun, or consider starting a flag to do so, the big sinking clusterscuppers scare away way more people than they inspire. Most people who consider putting their poe into blockading rather than furniture or familiars want to have fun at a reasonable cost, and still have their fleet afterwards.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 2, 2012 12:48:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
PhoenyxStar

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Sinking is not even. Outjob your opponent, and he will sink more, everything else even.


Wasn't always that way. I remember a blockade that I watched from the safe zone way back when... 2 ships not only held off an entire flag they won the blockade - being outjobbed approximately 10 to 1.

And as to why sinking blockades are "more fun"... The adrenaline spikes are a heck of a lot bigger when there's a chance that the ship you're driving can vanish out from underneath you never to be used again.

No I'm not a fan of the ship in a bottle thing.
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[Oct 3, 2012 4:45:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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That may be where our disagreement lies then. Eww, what you're insinuating is not material attrition in my book, it's pushing over with pay. Totally different thing. What I call material attrition falls completely flat against a flag, that allows even jobbing. Just can't be done, and there is no reason to do it either. (Unless you're just after buying the island but as I see material attrition, it's done to punish overjobbing flags and (if they have brain enough to get the math) teach them that their strategy is not a good one, not primarily to gain an island.)

Okay let's begin by an objective definition of attrition:

 
Attrition warfare is a military strategy in which a belligerent side attempts to win a war by wearing down its enemy to the point of collapse through continuous losses in personnel and matériel.
The war will usually be won by the side with greater such resources.
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

The legitimacy of attrition is irrelevant to it's nature, and/or whoever it profiteers.

Now if I understood you correctly, you don't think it's okay to rely on pushing opponents off the board with pay (agreed), but you think it's okay to use funds to punish people that use funds? The amount of logic that exists in your argument is equivalent to the amount of f*cks I give about the pricetag of a blockade. It also seems ridiculously hypocritical.

And please before you try to refute what I just said, look up about 2-3 inches and you'll see a quote that specifically says that attrition (usually) benefits the side with the most resources, which means that by using attrition blockades to punish Requisition you're essentially either helping them (if they have more funds than you) or replacing them with the same means they used to get to the position they're in; superior funding.

Clearly, SMA's are bad. But the best way to take down an SMA is to provide a healthy alternative, and not more of the same thing. Though I feel like we've somewhat strayed off topic. I'll return to my algebra, please continue moaning about how you don't like sinking blockades because you get outsunk whenever you're trying to grief Requisition.

Sigh, women =! logic.
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Dahl "I have higher moral standards" gren
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by warp11 at Oct 3, 2012 9:19:38 AM]
[Oct 3, 2012 9:15:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Uniques

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I find it funny that Avienda is complaining about this topic when Legacy made most cades sinky and made elite flaggies hunt nubs during war
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Embark (was Mrfocker) - Meridian Ocean
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You have been intercepted by the Cookie Jar!
Avast! A band of ravenous simians has cau
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Uniques at Oct 3, 2012 3:50:43 PM]
[Oct 3, 2012 3:46:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Embark wrote: 
I find it funny that Avienda is complaining about this topic when Legacy made most cades sinky and made elite flaggies hunt nubs during war

Read the blockade history before you make things up.

And Dahlgren, yeah, that might be the actual definition of attrition. If you can find a better word for what you very well know that I mean, I might start using it instead. It's not important anyway, it wouldn't be the first word to get a new definition within the game.

That's all at this hour.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Ezder at Oct 3, 2012 4:24:37 PM]
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awright

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Avienda wrote: 
Read the blockade history before you make things up.


He still has a valid point. Your flag used attrition and sinking blockades as a tactic which you have defended on the forums before. You criticizing it now is nothing but pure hypocrisy.
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fransalle

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Avienda wrote: 
Read the blockade history before you make things up.


He still has a valid point. Your flag used attrition and sinking blockades as a tactic which you have defended on the forums before. You criticizing it now is nothing but pure hypocrisy.


not to mention back to back cading a flag trying to make them broke



Edit: BUT SURE THIS ISN'T ATTRITION AND DOES HELP THE CADE SCENE!
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by fransalle at Oct 3, 2012 5:30:09 PM]
[Oct 3, 2012 5:29:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lilcracker

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Well it's either sinking blockades or they release a new big dub sink (still recovering from the horrors of gold boxes).

as for the new player/crew thing, it is up to the captain to decide whether to keep their crew in a sinking flag while there are greenies there, or not. needless to say a good captain would leave it and a bad one won't... if the captain wants o cade nav, they could just put an alt into that flag... which is what blockades mostly are... just a bunch of alts xD.


and as far as the expenses go, it's your job as the defending flag to make sure you can back up the island both with bnav skill and finances... when you fail at yer job, you lose the island (AKA, your fired!! XD).

i would suggest that unless you have enough poe to go 5 rounds of 6k+ pay (even though most cades dont reach that high, but best to make sure ye can last), don't cade a strong island or strong flag... disappointment lies ahead.

in any case, if you don't like the expenses of sinking cades, simply don't declare war... the feature that both flags have to war dec to be at war is a very useful one if your not ready for it...


oh and for the egomaniacs out there, owning many islands because you have TONS of funds does not make you any better than the other players.. this is that one of a kind game where skill matters far more than grind (poe, dubs, exp. points blah blah, bore me to death some more plz).
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[Oct 6, 2012 4:12:53 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Thanks Lilcracker, for a post that is constructive and on topic, even though I don't agree with you much!

 
Well it's either sinking blockades or they release a new big dub sink (still recovering from the horrors of gold boxes).

Well, that is true in a way, but I dare say that when it comes to sinking ships, SMHs probably do that better than blockades anyway. And talking about sinks, sure, we need them, but we could get a long way with just lowering the payouts in SMHs. Less botting, less inflation, more pillages, more people getting to b-nav their own ships, less steep hierarchy. Almost everybody wins. But, that's for game design, and I doubt it would ever happen anyway.

 
i would suggest that unless you have enough poe to go 5 rounds of 6k+ pay (even though most cades dont reach that high, but best to make sure ye can last), don't cade a strong island or strong flag... disappointment lies ahead.

I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree here. Do you really mean that you prefer an ocean where the smaller flags keep getting bled at their worthless outposts, while the wealthy "winners" can sit and collect island income while noone drops on them, because they don't want to spend 25 mil+ in a day? No, it should be possible to drop on larges, even if you're not likely to win, or to keep up with a paywar. And it would be, no problems at all apart from the higher drop cost, if those blockades weren't made sinking.

 
in any case, if you don't like the expenses of sinking cades, simply don't declare war... the feature that both flags have to war dec to be at war is a very useful one if your not ready for it...

That's exactly what I said, but from another perspective. "If you don't want your fleet sunk, don't drop here. Drop somewhere else if you want, but leave our islands alone!" Fine, I get it, those flags want to sit uncontested and get fat from island income. Just please skip the BS about loving blockades, and be honest about it.

 
oh and for the egomaniacs out there, owning many islands because you have TONS of funds does not make you any better than the other players.. this is that one of a kind game where skill matters far more than grind (poe, dubs, exp. points blah blah, bore me to death some more plz).

Disagreed again. Funds matter a lot, and even though it takes time ("grinding") to get them, never underestimate the skill of making poe. A fancy pirate page with all untimates may look nice, but it doesn't really do you much good and you may be a godlike naver, but without someone to pay you for a ship full of jobbers, that won't do you much good either.
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
[Oct 7, 2012 4:37:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cnuofesd

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Sinking changes the dynamics of the board as it becomes less desirable for attackers to spam undermanned ships oceanside, and also discourages third parties whom generally inflate the PoE cost of a blockade. It also discourages the longevity of cades, which if you've been dropped on at an ungodly hour can reduce your time commitment. This compensates for attackers advantage to a small extent.

That's not to say that in all instances of a sinking blockade, it is not made so for for purposes of attrition, or even made sinking as a deterrent for future drops. However I'd disagree that making blockade sinking is a pure illustration of the warfare of attrition.
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[Oct 7, 2012 4:47:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Disagreed again. Funds matter a lot, and even though it takes time ("grinding") to get them, never underestimate the skill of making poe. A fancy pirate page with all untimates may look nice, but it doesn't really do you much good and you may be a godlike naver, but without someone to pay you for a ship full of jobbers, that won't do you much good either.

Wrong.

Funds come and go but skills remain.
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[Oct 7, 2012 5:51:24 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Cnuofesd wrote: 
Sinking changes the dynamics of the board as it becomes less desirable for attackers to spam undermanned ships oceanside, and also discourages third parties whom generally inflate the PoE cost of a blockade. It also discourages the longevity of cades, which if you've been dropped on at an ungodly hour can reduce your time commitment. This compensates for attackers advantage to a small extent.

That's not to say that in all instances of a sinking blockade, it is not made so for for purposes of attrition, or even made sinking as a deterrent for future drops. However I'd disagree that making blockade sinking is a pure illustration of the warfare of attrition.

You make a lot of good points in the first paragraph, showing that you have some knowledge about blockades, but at the same time, you're not quite contradicting me.

"less desirable for attackers to spam undermanned ships oceanside" is just another wording of my point that in a sinking blockade, it doesn't really work to win by undermanning ships when you're outjobbed, because that means huge ship losses. In other words, in a sinking blockade, the defender can safely outjob and secure the win, without having to bleed themselves.

The kind of third parties who go in to create a paywar are just as likely in sinking blockades. In fact, many 3Ps only enter sinking blockades, because their goal is to sink ships.

"It also discourages the longevity of cades, which if you've been dropped on at an ungodly hour can reduce your time commitment." Yes, of course. Push the attacker off the board or force him to pay more than he's willing to, in lost ships. I get the point about uncomfortable times, and we've done that too, but that doesn't change the fact that sinking is used to push away or discourage attackers, so that the defender doesn't actually have to defend too much.

In the secong paragraph, you seem to make a disclaimer that sometimes, sinking may indeed be used to deter attacks, as a contrast to... Making it easier to push attackers off the board with overjobbing, and pushing attackers off the board as fast as possible if the time is uncomfortable?

Point still stands. It's not about fun, and it's not about a genuine love for blockades.
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[Oct 7, 2012 5:57:38 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
fransalle

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I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree here. Do you really mean that you prefer an ocean where the smaller flags keep getting bled at their worthless outposts, while the wealthy "winners" can sit and collect island income while noone drops on them, because they don't want to spend 25 mil+ in a day? No, it should be possible to drop on larges, even if you're not likely to win, or to keep up with a paywar. And it would be, no problems at all apart from the higher drop cost, if those blockades weren't made sinking.


a) Cading never makes profit.
b) 25 mil+? this weekend Kirin didnt even cost 5m (counting ships sunk)... and pay went up to 4k+ at times


 
That's exactly what I said, but from another perspective. "If you don't want your fleet sunk, don't drop here. Drop somewhere else if you want, but leave our islands alone!" Fine, I get it, those flags want to sit uncontested and get fat from island income. Just please skip the BS about loving blockades, and be honest about it.


Didnt you do the same thing?

Sit on islands for months and months.
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[Oct 7, 2012 12:51:40 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
warp11

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Point still stands. It's not about fun, and it's not about a genuine love for blockades.

See you're so wrong here it's ridiculous. You assume that everyone enjoys blockades the same way, and the same aspects of blockades. What I might consider an enjoyable blockade you might consider horrible and vice versa. There are people who genuinly enjoy sinking blockades for the sake of them being sinking. The fact that you're unable to understand that doesn't mean we don't exist.

Luckily, there are options. Luckily, the game is made in a way that we can have both nonsinking blockades and sinking blockades, that way everyone can be happy.

But please, carry on trying to convince people how everyone who doesn't agree with you hate blockading. It sure is looking good for you so far, has anyone agreed with you yet?
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[Oct 7, 2012 2:46:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ezder

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Iwnabeu wrote: 
 
I strongly, strongly, strongly disagree here. Do you really mean that you prefer an ocean where the smaller flags keep getting bled at their worthless outposts, while the wealthy "winners" can sit and collect island income while noone drops on them, because they don't want to spend 25 mil+ in a day? No, it should be possible to drop on larges, even if you're not likely to win, or to keep up with a paywar. And it would be, no problems at all apart from the higher drop cost, if those blockades weren't made sinking.


a) Cading never makes profit.
b) 25 mil+? this weekend Kirin didnt even cost 5m (counting ships sunk)... and pay went up to 4k+ at times


 
That's exactly what I said, but from another perspective. "If you don't want your fleet sunk, don't drop here. Drop somewhere else if you want, but leave our islands alone!" Fine, I get it, those flags want to sit uncontested and get fat from island income. Just please skip the BS about loving blockades, and be honest about it.


Didnt you do the same thing?

Sit on islands for months and months.

a) Sure can. Flagsit a profitable island, let everyone know that any cade on it will be a sinky paywar, then sit there for three years. 150 mil profit, or more. Not that tricky.
b) Read what you're replying to. The 25 mil figure came from this:
Lilcracker wrote: 
i would suggest that unless you have enough poe to go 5 rounds of 6k+ pay (even though most cades dont reach that high, but best to make sure ye can last), don't cade a strong island or strong flag... disappointment lies ahead.

Regarding the attempt at calling me a hypocrite - yes, we had islands. We had way too many. We tried real hard to encourage people to drop on them, because we wanted to blockade and it gets pretty unsustainable after a while to find a new target every week. Not our fault that our haters went telling everyone that we were the devil incarnated, and would eat their babies alive if they dared drop a chest on us, and people believed them...

Now please learn from the other posters here, skip the pathetic attempts at attacking me for everything you can come up with and stay on topic, or shoo.

Edit: Quote failure
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Qvintvs flag royalty chats, "I won't play for that much longer and when I quit, my pirate's dead body will be sent out at sea on a burning ship and let's face it, you will be on that ship as well.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Ezder at Oct 7, 2012 3:00:54 PM]
[Oct 7, 2012 2:48:16 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lilcracker

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i miss the old days when people would express their hatred for eachother and war eachother flags so the could say,
" IN YO FACE, MOTHASUCKA!!! >=D"



and i said to make sure that ye have enough mony because i've now seen 3 cades in the past 3 weeks where a flag was winning either 2-0 or 2-1 and even though they were winning, they had to give it up because they ran out of poe..... it just doesnt get sadder than that XD

edit: typos
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lilcracker at Oct 7, 2012 4:36:30 PM]
[Oct 7, 2012 4:35:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Judiciousman

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I think you're overestimating the blockade costs. As long as you're not a total moron, it's not difficult to keep a blockade cheap (though that may be because I'm an emerald blockader). Spending 25 mil or anywhere near that amount takes some serious skill. Most blockades range around the 1 mil to 7 mil range and spending into the 7 mil range is only due to R4 blockades at like 4k/seg.

One thing I do find funny is sinking sucks now because of small flags when I remember you were endorsing your navvers to go for sinks against a small flag on a worthless outpost. Your reasoning I believe was that 'it's not worth trying because it's a worthless island.'

lol

And I do like sinking blockades, gives someone to boast something about.
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[Oct 7, 2012 5:19:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cnuofesd

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I wouldn't call getting up at 3am to defend an island, "Fun" blockading.

If you don't go sinking and subsequently encourage a flag to contest 3+ rounds, then you lose sleep meaning that getting out of bed on Sunday morning is more of an effort. This means the game is evidently less enjoyable.

Therefore, going sinking prevents a loss of fun, which is when you look at opportunity cost, a relative,"Gain of fun" as a direct consequence of the blockade going sinking.
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[Oct 7, 2012 11:24:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Elliptic

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warp11 wrote: 
Sigh, women =! logic.

This is bad enough in itself, but your post does not address the effects of sinking. If the blockade is non-sinking, you cannot push someone off in the same way you can with sinking. This is because if it is non-sinking, you can only affect the attacker's chances of winning - not his costs. Playing on heavily outnumbered in a non-sinker is a real option in a way that doing so in a sinker isn't ... unless you try for a contest of cost.

Responding to a blockade being made sinking by focusing on costs is not comparable because the defender had total control of her costs and gave that up in pursuit of some advantage. If she had not made it sinking, attrition from sinks would be impossible. The defender is a victim of her own decision.

The first link in See Also on the page you linked to is to Guerilla Warfare. Attrition can be used by the weak against the strong. In Puzzle Pirates, the kind of underdog attrition you dislike has seen big disparities in cost. Even if it fails, though, I can't see how it can be called "griefing" when it's only possible because of the defender's own actions. We cannot expect attackers to focus on points after the defender introduces a dramatic new cost factor.

warp11 wrote: 
Funds come and go but skills remain.

warp11 wrote: 
Luckily, there are options. Luckily, the game is made in a way that we can have both nonsinking blockades and sinking blockades, that way everyone can be happy.

The sinking option is for one side only, so the attacker is only happy when he happens to agree with the defender. I doubt most people developing their skill would choose sinking, just as those beginning to learn swordfighting would not choose high wagers. The question is whether new, poor players who want to learn should have the stakes chosen for them by the old, rich players who already know the ropes.
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