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Vetarnian

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The elitism of Puzzle Pirates Reply to this Post
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Today, one of our crewbies decided to hold his first pillage. He and I were the only two of the crew online at the time, and I went along to help him as best I could. He put up a jobbing notice, and here was the first guy to apply. (The names have been changed.)

 
Firstguy has been invited to job for 'Our Crew'.
Firstguy has taken a job with 'Our Crew'.
Firstguy has come aboard.
Firstguy says, "can i load guns?"
Crewbie says, "right"
Firstguy says, "start sailin"
Crewbie has ordered you to do some Sailing.
Firstguy says, "we have enough leggo"
Crewbie issued an order to set the vessel to sail.


I was busy elsewhere when that exchange took place; if I had seen it, I would have told the crewbie to wait until he had at least five people before sailing. But no, the jobber thought we were fine just the three of us and a swabbie. During the first battle, long before the fight, this happens:

 
You intercepted the Touchy Salmon!
Firstguy abandoned a Gunning station.
Firstguy says, "bad bnav cant keep up."
Firstguy has left the vessel.
Heartless Bartleby has come aboard.


We had picked up a few more jobbers before battle. They all left at the end, after we had lost, by which time we were at least a couple of league points from port. We decide to continue and put up a new notice. Only one guy joins. At the beginning of the next encounter, this happens:

 
Secondguy laughs
Secondguy says, "poor"
Secondguy says, "lols"
Secondguy says, "how u set sail with 4 =.="
Secondguy says, "ask the bot to sail"
Secondguy says, "lemme bilge"
Vetarnian says, "we were more and they left"
Extra Lawson abandoned a Bilging station.
Crewbie has ordered you to do some Gunning.
Crewbie has ordered you to do some Sailing.
(Evidently Crewbie ordered Secondguy to do some Carpentry.)
Secondguy says, "i dun know how to carp"
Vetarnian abandoned a Gunning station.
Crewbie says, "what can you do?"
Secondguy says, "rig"
16 turns have elapsed. The defender is now allowed to disengage from the battle.
Secondguy says, "lemme bnav"
Poor Sunfish disengaged from the battle.
Secondguy says, "zzzz"
Crewbie issued an order to set the vessel to sail.
Secondguy has left the vessel.
Cautious Lucas has come aboard.


Yes, that's how it works in the wonderful world of Puzzle Pirates -- the guy who doesn't know how to do carpentry wants to be the battle navigator. I'm not saying Crewbie was perfect; far from it, and the first thing I'll tell him to stop doing is ordering people around the ship: you're dealing with humans, not bots. But if now Crewbie didn't want to hold pillages, who could blame him, after what happened? I should know: it's what happened to me five years ago, and now I'm content with assisting the battle navigator.

Recently, for that matter, I was embarked on a crewmate's pillage, when he suddenly logged off in the middle of the ocean; one of the jobbers offered himself to bnav, and I let him do it. What did I care? I'm awful at it, and it wasn't my pillage to begin with. What that jobber was, however, was sensible-sounding (and did a good job). But if it had been my pillage, and had involved a brusque jobber, I might have lost patience, like another crew member recently did after he was accused of "bad bad bnavin". After an unsuccessful (but mercifully non-sinking) flotilla run, he had a few tough words about jobbers back in port, and I agreed with all of them, except that part about how the remaining ones should "get the scupper off my ship", but just because it was my ship. Like Crewbie, why should he bother again?

Pity those of us who are middling or mediocre battle navigators, as there is no proper way to learn battle navigation in this game. Battling brigands with the navy means nothing if you would learn better while watching others doing battle navigation. But once again it's the class-ridden world of Puzzle Pirates that is to blame, where all that matters is statistics, and where the fun of pillaging has been sucked out by this expectation of instant gratification. (That's actually how we called our flag, out of spite.) Meanwhile, the elites carry on, away from sight and throwing 3k per segment in blockades.

As I said, it has always been like that (and I've been playing, on and off, since 2007), but it seems to have gotten worse of late. Perhaps that explains the myriad touches that Three Rings added to the game which reek of desperation at retaining a dwindling player base (trophies obtained for breathing, increasingly tacky artwork -- any ship beginning with the LS, especially the limited editions --, the endless promotions, the merger in which we old Hunterites were flooded by Sage players). So I am not expecting a solution to this; I just felt like sharing.

This type of behaviour once made me quit the game; I hope it's not going to happen again.
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
[May 27, 2012 1:09:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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OK, I see some problems. Some on OOO's side, which you point out, a few on your own. The biggest one I saw from you was:
 
He and I were the only two of the crew online at the time, and I went along to help him as best I could.

If you're going to unleash a battle navigator on the ocean, he really needs to have some training before he posts on the notice board. That may mean waiting for more of your crew to be online, or asking hearties if they don't mind helping out a new officer. Or in other words, having people on board who know that there will be rough patches, and are willing to sacrifice their time so that someone else can learn. At the very least
 
I was busy elsewhere when that exchange took place; if I had seen it, I would have told the crewbie to wait until he had at least five people before sailing.

he should have had an explanation of the basics-- including how to job, when to sail, and how to battle navigate-- before the jobbing notice was posted.

----------

Now on OOO's part, I've seen several suggestions that I would love to see implemented, any or all of them:

1) Somewhere in the archives there's a suggestion I made about having a coliseum for various battle types. One of the suggestions in it was simply target practice-- give a new officer somewhere he can get out, give him skilled swabbies, and all he has to do is sail around. No grappling, no getting shot at, just a target to shoot. Let him learn how to maneuver, how currents and whirlpools work, and stuff like that.
2) Give us more swabbies. Raise the swabbie cutoff on a sloop to six, at the very least. (That is, you lose your first swabbie when the fourth person steps on the ship, not when the second person does.)
3) Not allow notice board postings until the navigator passes some sort of test to indicate basic knowledge and skill. I mean, everyone he jobbed was expecting someone with at least basic experience. Your training made their game experience worse-- and those things you said about the game declining? Inexperienced navigators are part of the reason for it. That doesn't excuse your jobbers' rudeness, but does explain it.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by xelto at May 27, 2012 2:34:39 PM]
[May 27, 2012 2:32:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vetarnian

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If you're going to unleash a battle navigator on the ocean, he really needs to have some training before he posts on the notice board. That may mean waiting for more of your crew to be online, or asking hearties if they don't mind helping out a new officer. Or in other words, having people on board who know that there will be rough patches, and are willing to sacrifice their time so that someone else can learn. At the very least


I agree with you there, but he insisted on doing it at that time nonetheless. He even wanted to do it at first with a larger ship, until I convinced him that he should begin with a sloop.

 
he should have had an explanation of the basics-- including how to job, when to sail, and how to battle navigate-- before the jobbing notice was posted.


In his case, he is friends in RL with two or three experienced members of the crew. I was assuming they had told him how to do these things already -- in fact, I had done part of this myself on a previous day.
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
[May 27, 2012 2:42:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MSpartans

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If you're going to unleash a battle navigator on the ocean, he really needs to have some training before he posts on the notice board. That may mean waiting for more of your crew to be online, or asking hearties if they don't mind helping out a new officer. Or in other words, having people on board who know that there will be rough patches, and are willing to sacrifice their time so that someone else can learn. At the very least

I agree with you there, but he insisted on doing it at that time nonetheless. He even wanted to do it at first with a larger ship, until I convinced him that he should begin with a sloop.


Then bad form to whoever promoted him to officer so that he had the power to insist
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Searching for Black CI Trinks

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Aug 12, 2011
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by MSpartans at May 27, 2012 4:08:58 PM]
[May 27, 2012 4:08:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vetarnian

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Then bad form to whoever promoted him to officer so that he had the power to insist


Amazing. I talk of elitism, and what do I get? An elitist. It is quite normal, Gneiss, that you might not give much thought to ordinary pirates from the luxury of your villa, as you might be contemplating which of your five familiars you are going to wear on your next portrait, and whether they would clash with your black attire. Whatever your situation, I am certain that an old, well-connected pirate such as yourself never has to demean herself by jobbing off the board.

I'm an old Hunterite, and I recognize most of those crews and flags mentioned on your Yppedia profile; unlike it, I will keep this post short, seeing how you get annoyed at anything that "takes longer than 30 minutes".

There is no denying that you have been close -- even if you never quite made it (how infuriating it must have been!) -- to political power on the ocean. I had even heard of your crew (you know, the one half-named after you), and to this day I can find this in the description:

 
I WILL say that if you want Officer I want to see that you can Bnav (usually resp+) and handle a crew. Along those lines, if you want Fleet Officer I want to see that you can Bnav BETTER, handle a crew BETTER, are more ACTIVE, etc. :)


Isn't that charming? Immediately, the accent is put on battle navigation. Respectable or better -- I used to have that (if you need proof, you can always check the reverse of my portraits). Not anymore. Too much floating ships in the pre-swabbie era; too much memorizing when battles were just a waste of time and I didn't care whether I won or lost. Anyway, I'm back to Able now, and never bothered to get my old proficiency back, so I'm afraid I wouldn't meet your standards now.

But anyway, the insidious problem with linking bnav proficiency with rank is that you consider anyone not making the cut as unworthy of being appointed so much as officer; someone might own a ship, but they would not be able to use it. Oh, I know, on a doubloon ocean, anyone can buy a ship as soon as they start playing, but I remember that I bought my first sloop only with in-game earnings. It took me a week or two, I can't remember, but I felt that was the only legitimate (sorry, Three Rings) way to get started in this game. Yet according to your rigid hierarchy, I would not even have been allowed to use it.

Oh, I know what you are thinking: the ocean would have been spared another unworthy battle navigator. But the thing is that I never (except on a few occasions) held pillages. I didn't like it. But I was foraging, trading, memorizing, and could aptly solo a cutter. All of these activities would also have been denied me, even though they only involved me and my own ship. What, I have to ask you, would have been the justice in that? Or are you such an elitist that all that matters is how much I might tarnish the crew's record if I get intercepted while soloing a shipment of pomegranates?

Unless, of course, you belong to such an elite political flag that you're always at war with someone, in which case your refusal to appoint bnav-deficient officers who intend to use only their own ship, only in non-bnav situations, is only intended to protect them. Such magnanimity! Such grandeur of spirit! You are truly to be commended! Go and buy yourself a medal from the palace shoppe; I insist.
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
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[Edit 8 times, last edit by Vetarnian at May 28, 2012 7:42:47 AM]
[May 28, 2012 4:48:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jongy5

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For someone ranting about the backwards systems of our realms, you are awfully sarcastic and condescending.

Note: Unfortunately for you, a degree of crew training, navigational skill and proper use of the plank are fundamentals of pillaging regardless of any elitism.

Note: Jobber idiocy is NOT elitism.


Here is my pirate info, in case you wish to screen me for hypocrisy, poke holes in my moral fiber or suggest that I work on my battle navigation or encounter less indecision when selecting one of my invisible familiars to wear.
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Musicologist : Self-proclaimed Master Minstrel mostly of Meridian

Message from Team Evil: Fine, we'll pass the petition along to Hera for you even though you're pro-Team Purple, but we refuse to be happy about it! #TeamEvilisAWESOME
[May 28, 2012 5:11:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Then bad form to whoever promoted him to officer so that he had the power to insist

Amazing. I talk of elitism, and what do I get? An elitist.

It is not elitist to care more about the many jobbers who didn't have a fun time than whether you and your officer had fun. Just the opposite, your officer was being rude and selfish, and whoever promoted them to being an officer without making sure they were properly trained was also being uncaring about others.

I'm not going to responded to the rest of your attack on Gneiss, if you had actually addressed the issues, I'd have a higher opinion of you.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 28, 2012 5:18:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Then bad form to whoever promoted him to officer so that he had the power to insist

Amazing. I talk of elitism, and what do I get? An elitist. It is quite normal, Gneiss, that you might not give much thought to ordinary pirates from the luxury of your villa, as you might be contemplating which of your five familiars you are going to wear on your next portrait, and whether they would clash with your black attire. Whatever your situation, I am certain that an old, well-connected pirate such as yourself never has to demean herself by jobbing off the board.

Actually, she did, quite regularly. And here's the important part: I never had a bad experience jobbing for Naughty and Gneiss. Even back in my "Woohoo, I made distinguished!" days. It didn't make any difference who the officer running the trip was, it would have competent battle navigation, not excessive whistling, and a generally fun atmosphere.

I mean, if you distill your original post, it turns into:
 
I had a crewbie who was made officer. On his first training mission, we jobbed off the notice board. He made the mistakes you would expect a new officer to make, and a bunch of people jumped ship. Some of them were rude in the process. Why are people so rude? That's not right.

And you seem to focus on the rudeness (or "elitism" as you're calling it) while completely bypassing the part about your navigator totally booching and ruining the day for your jobbers. We've been trying to hint politely that letting an unskilled officer job from the notice board is equally rude, and that return rudeness of your jobbers is predictable, even if it does show an inexcusable lack of civility.

 
Oh, I know, on a doubloon ocean, anyone can buy a ship as soon as they start playing, but I remember that I bought my first sloop only with in-game earnings. It took me a week or two, I can't remember, but I felt that was the only legitimate (sorry, Three Rings) way to get started in this game. Yet according to your rigid hierarchy, I would not even have been allowed to use it.

No, we're not saying you can't use your ship. We're saying that the first couple trips, at the very least, should be with crew members and hearties who are willing to take a bit of time in the name of friendship and crew loyalty, so that the new guy can learn in a supporting environment, without having to worry about all the jobbers self-planking themselves.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by xelto at May 28, 2012 5:46:23 AM]
[May 28, 2012 5:39:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Yassenn

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Did anyone else hear him say Hunterite and disregard everything else he posted?

If you are old and from Hunter you should know yourself to be a Huntard. You should be proud and love the fact that you are a Huntard. True Huntards admire their ocean for the stupidity on the forums and lack of cades in game.

Yassenn a true Huntard,
Starting to wonder if there are any other Huntards still out there.
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Is it the weekend yet?
Yassenn of Hunter/Sage
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[May 28, 2012 5:59:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jongy5

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And you seem to focus on the rudeness (or "elitism" as you're calling it) while completely bypassing the part about your navigator totally booching and ruining the day for your jobbers.

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Musicologist : Self-proclaimed Master Minstrel mostly of Meridian

Message from Team Evil: Fine, we'll pass the petition along to Hera for you even though you're pro-Team Purple, but we refuse to be happy about it! #TeamEvilisAWESOME
[May 28, 2012 6:47:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Murdyll

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I feel I must step in here. I'm the uncaring Captain that promoted the officer in the first place, and I resent that I've been referred to as such.

We promote fairly, I feel, and exceptions are made when pirates own ships. It just makes sense to me; to not deny them the use of their purchased vessels. However the officer in question was unaware of how to run an effective pillage, and in truth, did not even know that battle-navigation could be practiced with the navy. Too few of our crewmates were online, and even I wasn't present for this pillage. I would have taken him out on a ship myself, with crewmates, and together we'd have taught him the ropes; it was no fault of mine nor Vetarnian's that the officer was too eager to wait for training (Vet prefers to "suggest" rather than give direct instructions, he's soft like that).

I won't speak of elitism. To be honest, I'm not sure why it was brought up in the first place. The officer is at fault here, but can we really fault him all that much? In Three Rings' own system, his pillage would've been marked with a bright green "Learning" (now there's an idea).
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Murdyll of Hunter Ocean
[May 28, 2012 7:23:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://hunter.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/pirate.wm?target=Murdyll [Link]  Go to top 
Jongy5

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I won't speak of elitism. To be honest, I'm not sure why it was brought up in the first place.

----------------------------------------
Musicologist : Self-proclaimed Master Minstrel mostly of Meridian

Message from Team Evil: Fine, we'll pass the petition along to Hera for you even though you're pro-Team Purple, but we refuse to be happy about it! #TeamEvilisAWESOME
[May 28, 2012 7:49:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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Rude person originally from rudest ocean complaining about rudeness. How odd.
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Peglegpaul
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[May 28, 2012 8:12:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dylan

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However the officer in question was unaware of how to run an effective pillage, and in truth, did not even know that battle-navigation could be practiced with the navy.


Could you not have, erm, told the OiQ? Like this:

OiQ to be: Ohai, i haz cheeseboater, canz i be officrar?
Uncaring Captain: Yo! Kthxbai
Caring Captain: No problem, I just quickly want to check what you know. Have you run pillages before?
OiQ to be: Herp derp nope!
Caring Captain: Right. I'm going to promote you to Officer! I'm afraid I'm busy right now, but perhaps we could go out on a crew pillage with some mates tomorrow? Please don't hire via the noticeboard until then; we've found that inexperienced bnavvers get treated rudely by elitists!
Caring Captain: Oh, and by the way, I strongly suggest practicing Battle Navigation with the navy, where the cannonballs are free!

Seriously, ever since the BNav mission was added there has been no need for any sort of officer training programme, but it isn't as if DNav is particularly difficult (plenty can manage it and load cannons and use their swabbies for sails and damage control - on ships larger than sloop class too!) BNav is way easier than the other aspects of handling a ship, but making a mistake in the BNav is deadlier in the short term.

Smooth seas to the lot of ye, but there is no elitism.
[May 28, 2012 8:23:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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it was no fault of mine nor Vetarnian's that the officer was too eager to wait for training

So you think that you, a Captain/Monarch, and Vetarnian, a Senior Officer/Royal, who are both in positions of authority have no responsibility for this. Instead, you blame it all on the officer that you took the effort to promote before you knew they were trained. Well, I guess that is better than shirking responsibility and blaming the jobber like Vetarnian did.

I anyone shocked that the name of their flag is "Instant Gratification"?
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[May 28, 2012 8:24:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vetarnian

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I won't speak of elitism. To be honest, I'm not sure why it was brought up in the first place.


My original post was much longer, but I reduced it before posting, and it seemed my intention was not fully clear from what resulted. Instant gratification and elitism are but two sides of the same coin: a rigid class structure that doesn't interact, doesn't mingle, and which leads to a situation where a middling bnavver has to rely on a jobber pool whose expectations have been heightened by the luxury of the top players, while the top players always have something better to do.

Going back to what another poster said:

 
I mean, everyone he jobbed was expecting someone with at least basic experience. Your training made their game experience worse-- and those things you said about the game declining? Inexperienced navigators are part of the reason for it. That doesn't excuse your jobbers' rudeness, but does explain it.


"Part of the reason" for the decline is because of inexperienced navigators? Really? I'd have thought that an influx of inexperienced navigators would have meant new players. And where, pray tell, are your experienced navigators in the meantime? Are they recruiting on the board, or are they doing their Ultimates-by-invitation-only elite pillages in their quiet corner of the ocean?

Try to imagine yourself at the bottom of the hierarchy for a change, forced to rely on the notice board, and all you get are a bunch of greenies (no problem, I like them), or yellows who have the stats of greenies or look like alts of better people who decided to see what life looked like among the peons for a while. Jobbers who don't hesitate to dump you after battle because they get the feeling that you've wasted their precious time. Doesn't matter to them that you've also wasted your own time, and your supplies, and that you might be just as annoyed as they are -- and that the last thing you want to hear about is your "bad bad bnavin".

I'm not even sure there is a middle anymore: the elites and the rest of us. You know where you can see the elites, usually. Blockades. Sometimes SMH trips. And these forums, being very vocal about the state of the game and what's good for the elites of the game. Little wonder you should side with the poor jobber robbed of the fruit of his labour by a "bad bad bnaver" at the expense of a guy who may never risk battle-navigating again.

It's your elitism, not bad bnavers, that is killing this game.

 
Rude person originally from rudest ocean complaining about rudeness. How odd.


Rudest ocean, was it? Oh, maybe its elites -- Hunter used to have a strong contingent of Something Awful goons, did it not? -- but I found little to complain about amidst the regular players of the server.
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
[May 28, 2012 8:38:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Vetarnian

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I anyone shocked that the name of their flag is "Instant Gratification"?


I suggest you work on your sarcasm detector.
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
[May 28, 2012 8:40:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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it was no fault of mine nor Vetarnian's that the officer was too eager to wait for training (Vet prefers to "suggest" rather than give direct instructions, he's soft like that).

Well, the few times I've promoted new players to officer, I made damn certain that they understood that they should do a run with me before they headed off on their own. I also told them why they needed a dry run first, so they had a bit of perspective about how the game runs.

 
In Three Rings' own system, his pillage would've been marked with a bright green "Learning" (now there's an idea).

Added to the list. Though that is possible now in a not-perfect-but-better-than-nothing way, by putting in a quick note in the chat bubble.
 
1) Somewhere in the archives there's a suggestion I made about having a coliseum for various battle types. One of the suggestions in it was simply target practice-- give a new officer somewhere he can get out, give him skilled swabbies, and all he has to do is sail around. No grappling, no getting shot at, just a target to shoot. Let him learn how to maneuver, how currents and whirlpools work, and stuff like that.
2) Give us more swabbies. Raise the swabbie cutoff on a sloop to six, at the very least. (That is, you lose your first swabbie when the fourth person steps on the ship, not when the second person does.)
3) Not allow notice board postings until the navigator passes some sort of test to indicate basic knowledge and skill. I mean, everyone he jobbed was expecting someone with at least basic experience. Your training made their game experience worse-- and those things you said about the game declining? Inexperienced navigators are part of the reason for it. That doesn't excuse your jobbers' rudeness, but does explain it.
4) Have some way of indicating that you're training a new officer.

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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by xelto at May 28, 2012 9:37:42 AM]
[May 28, 2012 9:21:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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I mean, everyone he jobbed was expecting someone with at least basic experience. Your training made their game experience worse-- and those things you said about the game declining? Inexperienced navigators are part of the reason for it. That doesn't excuse your jobbers' rudeness, but does explain it.

"Part of the reason" for the decline is because of inexperienced navigators? Really?

Yes. First impressions are important. A new player who whose first pillage is with someone who takes a long time in battle, uses the whistle too often, doesn't know how to deal with damage control, or many of the other noob officer annoyances-- that's often his last pillage, too.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[May 28, 2012 9:35:29 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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Rude person originally from rudest ocean complaining about rudeness. How odd.


Rudest ocean, was it? Oh, maybe its elites -- Hunter used to have a strong contingent of Something Awful goons, did it not? -- but I found little to complain about amidst the regular players of the server.

Aye, it was easily the rudest, simply comparing it to the other oceans. There were polite people and rude people on Hunter, as there are on each ocean, but the rude people were the majority. Being pleasant is nothing to do with elites or elitism, as other oceans had those sorts of players while still being better places to spend time than Hunter was. However, you are being rude to people here while counting yourself as a regular player, so maybe you just didn't notice how rude most of Hunter actually was.

You're mixing terms up anyway - do you have a problem with elites or elitists? There are skilled or powerful people (elites) in the game who are inclusive or helpful (not elitist) towards new or unskilled players. Then there are those people like you described in your first post who think they're above being on your ships (elitist) yet aren't good at the puzzles or otherwise notable (not elite). Having a problem with elitists is fine; having a problem with elites is jealousy.

Anyway, I won't say that your crewmate needs to learn to bnav brilliantly (if you teach him one thing though, make it how to use the plank). With just a few crew and so-so bnavving, he can still go out and find ships at his current level and earn small amounts of booty - which shouldn't a problem unless you want instant gratification.
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Peglegpaul
Now on Obsidian!
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by bronzebeard at May 28, 2012 9:42:59 AM]
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MSpartans

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Then bad form to whoever promoted him to officer so that he had the power to insist


Amazing. I talk of elitism, and what do I get? An elitist. It is quite normal, Gneiss, that you might not give much thought to ordinary pirates from the luxury of your villa, as you might be contemplating which of your five familiars you are going to wear on your next portrait, and whether they would clash with your black attire. Whatever your situation, I am certain that an old, well-connected pirate such as yourself never has to demean herself by jobbing off the board.


Watch out folks! G's on the loose. :o
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Searching for Black CI Trinks

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[May 28, 2012 10:21:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MSpartans

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Did anyone else hear him say Hunterite and disregard everything else he posted?

If you are old and from Hunter you should know yourself to be a Huntard. You should be proud and love the fact that you are a Huntard. True Huntards admire their ocean for the stupidity on the forums and lack of cades in game.

Yassenn a true Huntard,
Starting to wonder if there are any other Huntards still out there.


lol <3
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[May 28, 2012 12:24:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
marundel

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Just thought I'd throw in my two cents, since I have a couple minutes to kill...

I'm one of those folks who at one time had a fairly decent reputation as a pilot. I ran regular weekly pillages on WBs where 9 or 10 wins for 10 to 12 battles was the norm, and earnings ran around 2500-3500 per hour for jobbers (Cobalt) - a little higher for the hangers-in because I +1'd anyone who stayed on for the whole three hours. I'd also run shorter sloop pillages now and then, and regularly pulled in 4 or 5 wins and 0 or 1 loss with a decent return and usually 1 KB (which I sold and deposited in the booty.) I was also regularly requested for blockades.

Then the population started to dwindle... and this is when I saw the "class warfare" start to really polarize. I was never a rock star, and not what anyone would call "elite". I was recognized by many and known to be a decent bnavver, but I was barely above average - Ren to GM, average 10 mins per battle, average to below average return on SMH or flotilla... but steady, fair, and generous.

Yet, by early 2010 I could no longer load a WB for a 10-battle pillage on a Tuesday night. By late 2010, I could no longer load a baghla. By early 2011, even my sloop pillages were reduced to exactly the kind of jobber Vetarian speaks about in his OP. Now, keep in mind... this is with me winning 5/5, 5/6 on yellow routes, with a KB or two on most runs... I still dealt with the "I wanna gun or I'm not pillaging with you" types, the "you suck at bnav because you took 10 minutes to max and grapple" types, and the "I don't care if we're dead in the water, I'm not giving up my favorite station for anything" types... this is on top of the jobbers leaving in the middle of battle or just disappearing along the route without so much as a "thanks for the job".

Bottom line is two-fold:
- Most of my hearties either wanted to run their own pillages rather than job on someone else's; or they preferred CI, HS, and Atlantis to any pillage, or they were already promised to some rock star whose stats I would never be able to compete with on a red route, flotilla, or SMH.
- Most of the NB jobbers were more interested in quick profits, TH, or a random shot at a familiar than in enjoying a 5, 6, ...10 battle pillage with half-decent return on investment.

The game has degenerated to the point where experienced players job with each other by invitation only while new players get on both sides of the NB and treat each other with disdain in the process, which sometimes drives the more inexperienced away from the game.

I no longer run pillages - except for that rare occasion when I am moving a sloop from one port to another and decide to try to make a few PoE along the way. Even then, I am solo more than not. I've done one NB pillage in the last six months. It lasted 7 LPs, and I had a changeover of non-flag jobbers after every single battle. No more. My rating has descended below Master because of my lack of interest in wrestling with jobbers, with the NB, or with competing bnavvers.

Oh - and I'm in a crew that does train new officers before releasing them on the ocean - it doesn't really seem to make a difference in their experiences or my own.

OOO - Listen Up. Your dream of seaborn activities being a part of the social experience in this game only applies to a precious few. Give it up already. I'm spending $500 a year playing here - how about giving me 24 swabbies for my WB so I can start enjoying flotilla bnavving again?!?
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Pizzahutpete on the Cerulean Ocean
Prince, Super Awesomeness
SO, Boochin' Drunks

Pizzahutpete everywhere, thanks to the merge
[May 28, 2012 3:43:45 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.thehomebrewstore.com    meadbrewer [Link]  Go to top 
SchwaWarrior

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The game has degenerated to the point where experienced players job with each other by invitation only while new players get on both sides of the NB and treat each other with disdain in the process, which sometimes drives the more inexperienced away from the game.

This is why IMO it's vitally important to do the best job we "elites" or even "elitists" can at TRAINING the greenie or novice players into experienced players, who get as much bang for their puzzling skill they can and bring out their potential (we're not all skilled enough to get Ult at everything, perhaps, but the other day I taught a newbie that in Bilging you score higher by taking time to look for combos rather than turbo-clearing everything as fast as he can... and lo and behold, that same hour he hit his first Excellent ever ^^ so that's what I'm getting at), not to mention get them to the point where they do in fact have a network of friends and contacts, like us.

There's a huge gap between greenie and elite in this game, huger than it ought to be. That gap's not going to go away. But that doesn't mean something can't be done about it. It'd be a wonderful thing to see some serious leadership being done to take those from the greenie side of the gap over to the elite side, by inspiring them to do the same kind of hard work we all did to get to the side we're on, with our examples and our advice. We don't want to see perfect puzzlers, we just want to have fun playing this game with other people, am I wrong?

To me it seems all the OP is doing is complaining and whining about it. OP, don't do that, you're only part of the problem! >_< Instead, go over all the things the greenie-pillager in your crew did "wrong", and help him improve those things.

I agree, Bnav in the navy sucks; you only learn true Bnav by struggling alongside real human beings that are supporting you, making mistakes that they cover for and vice versa. Anyone can move a ship on the Bnav board without effort. Nobody can pillage without effort or compassion. :) And no, it has nothing to do with stats; my Solid/Master could often be considered "greenie" by a lot of elites, but like most seasoned pillagers, there are days I can pull 11 to 1 victory/loss ratio on a sloop, and there are days where I was damn lucky to pull even a 2 to 2 ratio. Or, sometimes I read their moves wrong and get instagrappled and we get our butts kicked because of me. But when that happens, the Navy doesn't teach you how to smile the pain away and say "Sorry about that guys, you all still did great", or what to do when most of your jobbers leave in battle, or things like that. A pillage isn't about Bnav, it's 99% about leadership. And as a more experienced player, it ought to be your job to instill leadership in the greenies, so they can be like you eventually, hard-working for their own sake and willing to help other people because their heart is in the game.

If you can't commit to those things, then in my opinion, you should NOT be an Officer, here or anywhere. That's my "inner elitist" speaking, but I've given reasons for it, so take it or leave it. :)

Also, if pillaging is hard, drink coffee. Coffee fixes EVERYTHING!
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*Schwzala* (formerly Schwa)
Avatar by Naimu, with love ^_^

 
Crickket: "One of the most brilliant women I know said, "Only boring people get bored.""

[May 28, 2012 5:00:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MSpartans

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but the other day I taught a newbie that in Bilging you score higher by taking time to look for combos rather than turbo-clearing everything as fast as he can... and lo and behold, that same hour he hit his first Excellent ever ^^


Heck, today I taught a Hunterite that Bnav AI can be predicted/read ;) <3


*so many edits because I failed writing my sentence...again...and again...and again...
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[Edit 5 times, last edit by MSpartans at May 28, 2012 11:01:37 PM]
[May 28, 2012 10:51:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Murdyll

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it was no fault of mine nor Vetarnian's that the officer was too eager to wait for training

So you think that you, a Captain/Monarch, and Vetarnian, a Senior Officer/Royal, who are both in positions of authority have no responsibility for this. Instead, you blame it all on the officer that you took the effort to promote before you knew they were trained. Well, I guess that is better than shirking responsibility and blaming the jobber like Vetarnian did.

I anyone shocked that the name of their flag is "Instant Gratification"?


Honestly, this kind of response is probably what Vetarnian is referring to when he mentions "elitism".

See, our crew is small. It's tight-knit, and I know a number of the crew members in real life, including the officer I rudely promoted. We're not professional pillagers; it's a crew of friends, not a business. So, I'm not going to deny one of my best friends his officer position for a few days because I didn't make doubly sure he knew not to use the notice board. He was, by the way, told on numerous occasions that we'd take him out for training a few days later. He erred, and hired from the notice board; it's a faux pas.

But that's not the point here. It's all a game to us, yet you speak as if it isn't. As if we are morally reprehensible people for allowing such an injustice to occur. Jobbers aren't forced to hang around if they feel a pillage going bad, and you know they rarely will. The elitism I'm seeing here, it's almost like you don't want us to play in your sandpit. I know the analogy you'll draw here is that we've come in to your sandpit to mess up all your castles; but a more accurate analogy would be that we've built our own castle, and people like you come along and tell us it's crap.

Here's the kicker: I am not a real Captain. I am not a real Monarch. The only authority I have exists in your sandpit, and I am deeply offended that you feel I am a worse person for the promotion I gave. One that I had originally thought was a good deed.

As for "Instant Gratification", yeah, that's a joke. We wanted a flag of our own so we could stay out of matters of war, and the title seemed appropriate at the time.
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Murdyll of Hunter Ocean
[May 29, 2012 6:29:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://hunter.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/pirate.wm?target=Murdyll [Link]  Go to top 
Mrbriney

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I like you, Murdyll.
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It's MR BRINNNEEEYYY
[May 29, 2012 6:59:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
elbeejay

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Well here's the thing Murdyll, nobody would have criticized your crew or your way of running things if your buddy Vetarnian didn't come to the forums talking about the supposed "elitism of Puzzle Pirates," and how elitists are what spoiled that pillage for your friend.

People are only criticizing you and Vetarnian because this was brought to the forums and the blame was placed on supposedly "elitist" jobbers, instead of taking the blame for a bad pillage yourselves, which occurred due to a lack of proper officer training. Sure, you can promote people and let them run pillages and do as they please before training them. But when you do that, don't come running to the forums and blaming the jobbers for leaving a poorly run pillage. Instead, you should acknowledge the drawbacks of promoting people without officer training, and understand that poorly run pillages may very well be one of those drawbacks.

There are and will be elites and elitists in all games, but I don't think they are to blame in this situation.
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-Elbee on Hunter, Sage, Viridian, and Malachite
[May 29, 2012 7:16:12 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Murdyll

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Well here's the thing Murdyll, nobody would have criticized your crew or your way of running things if your buddy Vetarnian didn't come to the forums talking about the supposed "elitism of Puzzle Pirates," and how elitists are what spoiled that pillage for your friend.

People are only criticizing you and Vetarnian because this was brought to the forums and the blame was placed on supposedly "elitist" jobbers, instead of taking the blame for a bad pillage yourselves, which occurred due to a lack of proper officer training. Sure, you can promote people and let them run pillages and do as they please before training them. But when you do that, don't come running to the forums and blaming the jobbers for leaving a poorly run pillage. Instead, you should acknowledge the drawbacks of promoting people without officer training, and understand that poorly run pillages may very well be one of those drawbacks.

There are and will be elites and elitists in all games, but I don't think they are to blame in this situation.


I completely agree. I'm not Vetarnian, and I didn't start the cry of elitism, nor do I believe that it was to blame for the original post's subject. I will say however, that a few of the posts following my own felt elitist to me. I just find that there's injustice in judging the character of a human being based on their (let's face it) nigh inconsequential actions within a computer game.
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Murdyll of Hunter Ocean
[May 29, 2012 7:59:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://hunter.puzzlepirates.com/yoweb/pirate.wm?target=Murdyll [Link]  Go to top 
Vetarnian

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People are only criticizing you and Vetarnian because this was brought to the forums and the blame was placed on supposedly "elitist" jobbers, instead of taking the blame for a bad pillage yourselves, which occurred due to a lack of proper officer training.


By all means, let us not bring this up to the forums. For all the talk of how poker, or "bad bad bnavin" has been killing the game since forever, the elitism and class divide of this game is precisely the problem.

Blame for a bad pillage must go to the battle navigator, you say? Is it always the case? What about those half-full ships that leave port because every additional minute gives you two leaving jobbers for every one you attract?

This morning, I jobbed in a flotilla. We went in once, and the bnaver -- who, without naming him, is senior to the extent that he is currently governing an island -- had to get out again because he lost his gunners. Sure enough, as soon as he was out, the ship emptied itself, even though he had clearly indicated he was re-jobbing to go back in. We spent an hour at the league point, waiting to get enough people, and this was in a WB. He went in, and still didn't have enough jobbers; in the end, he tired and decided to go in a blaze of glory.

Based purely on the loot, it was a waste of time, but the bigger waste of time was to waste an hour waiting for something that was a foregone conclusion: we were never going to go back in there and be competitive. I suspect the only reason why the bnavver decided to enter the flotilla a second time was to avoid giving the impression that our time had been wasted. But it was. If all those jobbers who had come aboard had stayed aboard, we would have entered the flotilla within 20 minutes with a full crew.

See what I mean? It wasn't "bad bad bnavin", but it was a waste of time also. And it wasn't the bnaver's fault; you can't make bricks without straw, and the straw was too busy chasing the mighty PoE now now now!
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Vetarnian on Emerald, ex-Hunter.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Vetarnian at May 29, 2012 1:31:27 PM]
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