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rroberts



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I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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OK, that's it. I've had it. It's all over the place in loads of threads I can find, but here's a new one.

Imperial brigands placing moves and shots after the timer has ended and reset is cheating and really needs to stop happening.

The End.
[Dec 17, 2004 9:27:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chestertongrant.co.uk [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Presumably, you are mistaken, and are experiencing interweb latency. The End.
[Dec 17, 2004 9:41:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
rroberts



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Ok, so I'm just dumb, but............wha?
[Dec 17, 2004 9:48:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.chestertongrant.co.uk [Link]  Go to top 
AngryChair



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Hmm. From what I've read/seen I believe they actually might do that.

Live with it.
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[size=7]Sun shines in the bedroom when we play
the raining only starts when you go away

[Dec 17, 2004 9:52:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    mellonco11ie [Link]  Go to top 
n00bKiLLa

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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They get some advantage since they don't have a brain and hopefully you do.
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dai n0oBz
[Dec 17, 2004 10:07:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dementia



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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They do. It's to prevent people from placing moves at the last minute and "cheating" against the brigands by not giving them the chance to respond.
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- Ajani, Into the Sunset

Ryhison tells you, "i hate u u are a evil little man that tourtures little animals"
[Dec 17, 2004 10:08:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    LifeAheadofYou [Link]  Go to top 
Smolder

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Shuranthae in another thread wrote: 
Just bnav like they are going to read your mind anyways.

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-Harding
[Dec 17, 2004 10:25:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Smackey

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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rroberts wrote: 
OK, that's it. I've had it. It's all over the place in loads of threads I can find, but here's a new one.

Imperial brigands placing moves and shots after the timer has ended and reset is cheating and really needs to stop happening.

The End.



The Beginning.

If you're doing LSMs(Last Second Moves) or take an exuberant amount of time to think of a move (Which makes it look like an LSM), you will be LSMed back. Brigands queue them up, so they might not change right away, but they might change their move when you're not realizing it.

Solution: Nav better, think faster, and/or pillage on easy routes with people below the SB rating of Grand Master.
----------------------------------------
"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal."- Friedrich Hayek
[Dec 17, 2004 1:13:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Or just ignore the bar.

Just think of it this way. The Brigands should react to any move you place down. If you place it early and don't change it, they'll respond to how you place it and their bar may change to reflect that. If you LSM them, they'll do the same but after the timer later on. Regardless of when you put moves down, they should react to your moves.
[Dec 17, 2004 1:20:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nashua



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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I still think that brigands might should be witnessed not by cheating, but by a better AI. I can feel the frustration because the reason why you LSM is exactly because they are cheating in the first place and you try to counter that.

This may seem fine to those confortable enough on the SB screen to read the map in a flash. And even better to those who are so experienced that they know how brigands react. But for those of us who are still struggling with SB, it is very frustrating and one of the major reasons some players choose to dislike sea battling. Lets not forget this behavior is witnessed across the board. From Sailors to Imperials.

The effect of cheating is much stronger than losing to a smart AI. And personally I get way more frustrated when I lose against a cheating brigand then when I lose to a PvPer.

But as far as a possible solution may be untill the ringers decide to hire someone who knows how to code AIs, is to wait for them to lose their movement points and then sneak in, preferably from behind. But even then I've been witnessing very doubtful situations. However, I was told the best way to beat brigands is not on the SB, but on the SF. Be a good SFer and, according to the opinion of some, you will beat them no matter how shots were exchanged during SB.
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Nemo wrote: 
We like that you're playing so much, but some of you are crazy.

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funnybones

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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I am a terrible sea battler, but I love the puzzle and have never had a problem with brigands. My largest annoyance is when I ran out of move tokens and a brigand, when it could've nailed four shots in me because I was right in range, came up and grappled me, why do they have to be so dumb?

Also, I hate whirl pools, and get confused by wind and pools as far as whether they move me before or after my turn.
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The Dread Pirates Robinson & Barthes, LLC

The poor complain; they always do. But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all. At least, to all who matter.

[Dec 17, 2004 1:55:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Gloraelin

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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funnybones wrote: 
Also, I hate whirl pools, and get confused by wind and pools as far as whether they move me before or after my turn.


welcome to the club.
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yes glor.. your boobs are vuluptously awesome.
 
Ye have received a trade request from Thunderbird.
Those two offers are identical, what's the point?

[Dec 17, 2004 1:57:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/gloraelin/    gloraelin    gloraelin [Link]  Go to top 
dravlid

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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the thing that i dont like is when i sit there and watch them, they do not put any moves up so i dont. Then after the timer is expired they mysteriously have 4 movements and find a way to shoot and damage ye.

This is a rare situation, so now i have always put at least 1 move down, unless there is no way they can shoot and hit me.
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People in cars cause Accidents....Accidents in cars cause People
[Dec 17, 2004 2:08:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Cleaver
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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Better Brigand AI -- on The List.
[Dec 17, 2004 2:20:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com/ [Link]  Go to top 
Smackey

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Cleaver wrote: 
Better Brigand AI -- on The List.


Ooo, incoming challenges!
----------------------------------------
"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal."- Friedrich Hayek
[Dec 17, 2004 2:23:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nashua



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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funnybones wrote: 
Also, I hate whirl pools, and get confused by wind and pools as far as whether they move me before or after my turn.


Whirpools move and rotate your ship clockwise.

EDITED: The accumulated effect is the same as a right turn.

graphically it looks like this:


Assuming a starting position at round 0 of:

|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| | < |
|---|---|

On round 1:

|---|---|
| ^ | |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

On round 2:

|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| | > |
|---|---|

On round 3:

|---|---|
| v | |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

On round 4:
(back to the original position of...)
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| | < |
|---|---|


Now... what you need to know is that your movement order always takes priority over the whirlpool effect. So, if after round 4 there, I decided to move forward right as my first move order, the result after that round was over would be:


You move forward...
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| < | |
|---|---|

and the whirlpool effect kicks in after your movement:
|---|---|
| | ^ |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

and will keep moving untill the 4 slots are used.


So, now lets assume you want to leave the whirpool. Since your movement order takes precedence over the whirpool effect, all you need to do is to move forward, left or right on the very first turn of your movements and you will be out.

Just as to make this even more clear, lets assume you place a left turn, not on the very first movement slot, but on the second... a mistake.


Just to remind you, you start like this:
|---|---|
| | ^ |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

Since you didn't put a movement on the first slot, your ship ends like this:
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| > | |
|---|---|

Now your 2nd slot left turn kicks in:
|---|---|
| | ^ |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

Oops...
And then the whirlpool effect kicks in just before your 3rd slot. is used.

|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| > | |
|---|---|

Oops x2...
And since you didn't put any more moves, your third slot is used...
|---|---|
| | v |
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|

and the forth slot is used without any movements too, so only the whirlpool effect is calculated:
|---|---|
| | |
|---|---|
| < | |
|---|---|


Hope this helps.
----------------------------------------
Nemo wrote: 
We like that you're playing so much, but some of you are crazy.

[Dec 17, 2004 2:24:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Smackey

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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!!

Nashua, great graphics you have there :)

Very nice.
----------------------------------------
"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally and attempting to make them equal."- Friedrich Hayek
[Dec 17, 2004 2:51:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
funnybones

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Great, so wind moves your ship BEFORE your move or after? This has always been my problem, I just moved my mouse around the whirlpool otherwise.
----------------------------------------
The Dread Pirates Robinson & Barthes, LLC

The poor complain; they always do. But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all. At least, to all who matter.

[Dec 17, 2004 2:51:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Markoman

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Cleaver wrote: 
Better Brigand AI -- on The List.


That has always been the reason I never pillage anymore, unless I'm jobbed.

I stink at B. Nav, and the only thing I can beat doesn't pay enough to restock.

Please get a moderately difficult AI implemented.
----------------------------------------
Markozeta
[Dec 17, 2004 2:54:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.Mersenne.org    Markozetaman [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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funnybones wrote: 
Great, so wind moves your ship BEFORE your move or after? This has always been my problem, I just moved my mouse around the whirlpool otherwise.

Earth, Wind, Fire. Ship, Current, Shot.
Nashua wrote: 
I still think that brigands might should be witnessed not by cheating, but by a better AI. I can feel the frustration because the reason why you LSM is exactly because they are cheating in the first place and you try to counter that.

I refuse to believe this is true. The fact of the matter is that the current Brigand AI is pretty much the same AI we had 10+ months ago. However, the last second exploit has only been known (to the general populace) for about five to six months. People used the LSE because people grabbed onto whatever method they can to win despite it's cheapness. I laugh at people now that the LSE has been mostly "fixed" just like I did when the Ringers finally fixed the Edge camping.

If you people stopped thinking about the AI as a Program and moreso as an opponent, and stopped trying to rationalize what they did to you and tried to figure out what you could have done better, there wouldn't be anything to talk about here.
[Dec 17, 2004 3:48:43 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
panther1st

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Nashua wrote: 
I still think that brigands might should be witnessed not by cheating, but by a better AI. I can feel the frustration because the reason why you LSM is exactly because they are cheating in the first place and you try to counter that.

This may seem fine to those confortable enough on the SB screen to read the map in a flash. And even better to those who are so experienced that they know how brigands react. But for those of us who are still struggling with SB, it is very frustrating and one of the major reasons some players choose to dislike sea battling. Lets not forget this behavior is witnessed across the board. From Sailors to Imperials.

The effect of cheating is much stronger than losing to a smart AI. And personally I get way more frustrated when I lose against a cheating brigand then when I lose to a PvPer.

But as far as a possible solution may be untill the ringers decide to hire someone who knows how to code AIs, is to wait for them to lose their movement points and then sneak in, preferably from behind. But even then I've been witnessing very doubtful situations. However, I was told the best way to beat brigands is not on the SB, but on the SF. Be a good SFer and, according to the opinion of some, you will beat them no matter how shots were exchanged during SB.



This particular part I can vouch for..

We had maximum damage against an Imperial.. there was a few of us on a sloop...all good SB ratings...We won..
----------------------------------------
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Aider FO and Bilge Rat of "that crew"

Aiders no longer in game!
[Dec 17, 2004 5:37:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
crowsdiamond

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Heh... sometimes I'm the windsheild ... sometimes I'm the bug.
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~Faile
Once Captain of the Mighty PPA
Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
Now Unretired and ready to KILL!!

Just point me to what you want dead, an' I'll kill it. Or die trying!
[Dec 17, 2004 10:50:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
Christoban

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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To the original poster...

Try this, for a start:

Don't put in last second moves for the first half of the fight. Wait til they're shot up a bit. Drop them in once they are starting to lose tokens, and then the fact that they're LSMing you back won't mean as much because they lack the tokens to do it effectively.


my 2 poe..
----------------------------------------
game design wrote: 
..let's see, we have thing A and thing B, with thing B currently not implemented yet. Thing A leads to people stabbing themselves in the eye, as does thing B... but since A already exists..

[Dec 18, 2004 1:22:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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rroberts wrote: 
OK, that's it. I've had it. It's all over the place in loads of threads I can find, but here's a new one.

Imperial brigands placing moves and shots after the timer has ended and reset is cheating and really needs to stop happening.

The End.


Responding to the original because it's the important part :)

Yup. They do it. So can you.

My personal record is placing 3 moves and 2 shots after I saw the timer reset and having it take them all.

So it's not cheating. It's just lag in the timer animation, or else you just have a mistaken idea of when the cutoff for accepting moves is or something like that. Of course, there's a pretty strong argument that it *shouldn't* take those moves. But it usually does.
----------------------------------------
Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[Dec 18, 2004 2:30:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
joris

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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If i decide to LSM in a fight because my other techniques would not work, i find that the higher the enemy's ranking (sailor, imperial, etc.) the less LSMs it takes for them to respond with the same.

Some personal findings: (they LSM back after X moves)

sailors: 6
sea lords: 3
imperials: 1

Another thing i see as a trend is a time stoppage, not just them placing moves after the times is down to bottom. I'd say 99% of the time (the rest i probably dont notice it) i have the ability to change/put in new moves while they do too. What i find very usefull is i will play with one token (switching between right and left click (i.e. forward, left, forward, right, forward)) till they have changed their moves and then alter my entire move set to counter theirs. I guess you can call it double LSMing, but it goes like this.

I LSM, timer passes, i play with moves, they LSM, i respond and beat shoot them down.

Now that i have Bnaved a bit more on a slower computer and from europe i find that both are at a disadvantage. The cutoff for acceptance of moves (in my perspective) is shorter, allowing less time and more chance of unsucessfull (harmfull) LSM.

:)
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Belgica
Teh Poke faktor candidate 07/07
[Dec 18, 2004 6:07:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
CrazyMorg



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Cleaver wrote: 
Better Brigand AI -- on The List.


heres my problem with this and all of shurs comments, I can beat an imperial but it cost me more shots and more time, and the payout is worthless, im not, and no one should go out on a run that costs them more money than they make b/c they have to use too many cbs

so fine make them tougher, do whatever the heck you want, im pretty sure ill beat them easily, but make the bloody payout fair and profitable b/c i think it sucks...

and shur...not everyone wins the amounts that you do, for that matter no one does, look at the majority, not the 5 people that do or can
[Dec 18, 2004 11:04:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Shuranthae

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A dozen or so people can actually, but yeah that is by far from the majority. If you're using that much shot then you need to up your crew cut, not to mention have plenty of people on board (around 75%+ of the ship capacity). I'd consider accuracy as part of the skill though some people (amazingly) go through a freaking ton of shot in a given fight.
[Dec 18, 2004 11:29:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
kaiserroll

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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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Personally, I've had it with cheating bots synthetic swordfight ability. Especially when they they start pulling off constant, small drops in a fight where you've only had about five or six breakers total. There is something up with that. Its just not right that they clear their screen regardless of the number of breakers you get.
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[Dec 18, 2004 11:44:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
AngryChair



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Five or six breakers? Most skilled SF'ers will have insta'ed you by then.
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[size=7]Sun shines in the bedroom when we play
the raining only starts when you go away

[Dec 18, 2004 11:51:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    mellonco11ie [Link]  Go to top 
Raerlynn



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Re: I've had it with cheats Reply to this Post
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kaiserroll wrote: 
Personally, I've had it with cheating bots synthetic swordfight ability. Especially when they they start pulling off constant, small drops in a fight where you've only had about five or six breakers total. There is something up with that. Its just not right that they clear their screen regardless of the number of breakers you get.


1. The AI isn't fighting the way you think it is. I'm not very familiar with it myself, but from what I understand, it simply tries to match up its blocks to a specific pattern. There is no real strategy that the AI goes by in a SF.

2. You get the exact same drop as your opponent. So whatever it gets, you get. Just get there faster and more accurately and you've won.
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My page about me.

I suffer fools all day long as part of my job. I make fools suffer me as part of my fun.
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