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dalnoth

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Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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So it has come to my attention and has been snipped from here:

http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=2101412#2101298


The age old debate, of the message Cleaver was conveying here: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=351175#351175


Quoted:
 

 
If a war of attrition is a bannable offense, I would petition that Cleaver and his group take control of all islands immediately.

I have no time for this hyberbole. Read the post I made; attrition means wearing the other side down until they have lost the will to fight. The intent of the game is that it is a fun competition between the parties. More blockades that are fun, fair and challenging is fine and good. Repeated 'endless war' blockades and no-shows to grind down defenders is not acceptable.


 
I don't think that attrition has much of a place in a fun, social online game. Now, that's not to say that the game design doesn't make than obvious tactic, and for that I acknowledge fault.

Attrition is pretty much by definition griefing, as it relies on wearing down (primarily, esp. in the case of established Midnight flags who can field essentially bottomless resources) the enemy's will to fight. I've warned about using this kind of tactic, now is the time to send a clear message that it's not acceptable.


Link to the thread:
http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?p=351175


So, I ask the question; Is it possible for the blockaders once and for all to get an answer or clarification from OOO's as to what Cleaver means by attrition, and if it still applies to today?

CC on Hunter had petitioned for attrition intentions once, They were blockaded 7 strait times with pay reaching nose bleeding levels and the intentions of the attacking side stated well all over the forums that it was their intention to use attrition to win. However, CC was told to await a response and never received an answer on if this tactic is ok or not.

To further complicate the situation, There are blockades every year where people think it's ok to drop a chest; load one ship to get the bare minimum contention requirement to not get hit by the Robert Donald Special and nothing has ever been done about this. At the very least, when you declare a blockade could we get some kind of a warning on a pop up box before we click OK to drop the chest.

As I am now politically retired and no Longer run an active flag, I think in my past experiences this is the most glaring problem I can see with the blockade game.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by dalnoth at Jan 27, 2010 9:48:50 PM]
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Stuiestu

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Gee, to win a blockade (or war) on malachite pretty much just involves paying more than your enemies :)
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OdorOfFrodo

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Is it possible for the blockaders once and for all to get an answer or clarification from OOO's as to what Cleaver means by attrition, and if it still applies to today?
 
attrition means wearing the other side down until they have lost the will to fight. The intent of the game is that it is a fun competition between the parties.

Still the same game, so I'm guessing it still applies.
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slimbutt

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flags who can field essentially endless resources
This could also be construed to cover paywaring. Winning by raising pay to the point that the other side has to drop out.

As for sending in a minimum fleet for one round;
Many greenie flags have dropped having no idea what they are doing. Often the only thing they can do is send in a minimum fleet for one round. Either they are incapable of more or it would destroy all their resources and possibly their flag.
I consider 'dummy drops' a low move. There is a difference between a dummy drop and the above mentioned situation.
In the above mentioned situation a pirate ban or flag disbandment could result in a new flag not learning from their mistake and trying again.(With the result of a fun contested blockade.)
As much as I hate 'dummy drops' I hope OM's do not begin judging if a drop was a greenie move or an intentional 'dummy drop'. OM's are not consistent enough to make such a judgement.
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[Jan 28, 2010 5:26:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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As long as you actually contest the blockade (i.e. it's not a complete no-show), there should be no worries of being banned for it. You can't expect everyone to blockade to win against 5000/seg pay wars, and attrition of resources is a valid strategy.
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[Jan 28, 2010 5:42:00 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheRack

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wrs1864b

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From what I can tell, OOO's philosophy for blockades is:

Contested blockades are good fun.

The reward for being good at the blockade puzzle is an island-trinket. Owning an island-trinket means that your flag, which clearly likes blockades, is reward with being able to create more fun via event blockades and BK scuttles. Obviously, island owning flags all jumped for joy when they were given the chance to have more blockades!

A good faith attempt at taking an island is not griefing. If it is a clueless flag that can only field 2 sloops and a cutter blockades, that is OK the first time. If it really isn't a clueless flag, but backed by another, larger flag, well, that might not be ok.

To give a fairly recent example of something the OMs did *not* object to, even though apparently several players /complained, was Cobalt's Eleventy's The Seven Deadly Sins series of blockades on Tigerleaf Mountain. What Eleventy was doing was not spelled out in their blockade posts. The first blockade sin was sloth, where they took in a single sloop and did nothing. Other "silly" blockades/events followed until in the sixth week, they had "wrath" and took the island.

I'm not sure where this example leads, but to the best of my knowledge, the OMs did not punish anyone in Eleventy for their actions.


Edit: Maybe the thing that should be asked is: What if everyone did <x> repeatedly, would most of the players of the game find it fun? In the case of no-show blockades, the answer is no. In the case of pay wars, the answer is yes.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by wrs1864b at Jan 28, 2010 6:12:18 AM]
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Talisker

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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From what I can tell, OOO's philosophy for blockades is:

Contested blockades are good fun.


Yeah. I think there's a couple important parts of the Cleaver statement.

1) Attrition, specifically grinding down the will to fight, is bad.

and secondly:

Cleaver wrote: 
More blockades that are fun, fair and challenging is fine and good.

So if they were contested, non-half-assed affairs, it seems like they are "fine and good."
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cmdrzoom

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I don't like it.
But I learned the last time that we had this discussion that no one seems to care what I think about it.
*shrug*
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[Jan 28, 2010 9:05:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
treepirate88

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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Quoted:

 
I don't think that attrition has much of a place in a fun, social online game. Now, that's not to say that the game design doesn't make than obvious tactic, and for that I acknowledge fault.

Attrition is pretty much by definition griefing, as it relies on wearing down (primarily, esp. in the case of established Midnight flags who can field essentially bottomless resources) the enemy's will to fight. I've warned about using this kind of tactic, now is the time to send a clear message that it's not acceptable.



To me this is the most important part. Puzzle pirates, no matter how serious anyone takes it, is still a game at the end of the day.

But the fact that you have a game with war seems semi-ironic when the spirit of the game has been said to have fun. A game is for fun, most of the time, while a war is serious. It's pretty hard to have a war be fun. It's pretty easy for a game to stray away from fun and get serious. That's why we see the game get serious, all too often, when war is involved. War, as a mechanic of the game, begets seriousness. When seriousness is involved people usually set their heart to doing whatever they can do to win.

I'm not saying blockades are bad or war is a terrible thing. What I'm saying is that there are some people out there who have the wrong intentions in doing what they're going to do. I can't tell you how many blockades I've seen where it's personal or "we just want to shut them up". hehehe that was still a funny video/sound byte

I dunno, just my thoughts.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by treepirate88 at Jan 28, 2010 10:04:52 AM]
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sweetnessc

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flags who can field essentially endless resources
This could also be construed to cover paywaring. Winning by raising pay to the point that the other side has to drop out.


If he said it today it could, but at the time, pay was done manually and paywars did not exist (there was no way to communicate to jobbers for the other side that you were increasing your pay).

Leif's already picked out the other key parts of the thread.
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Talisker

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Leif's already picked out the other key parts of the thread.


As an addendum, many of the instances contributing to the Exile simply aren't possible these days. You cannot, for example, simply create a one man alt flag and drop on an island. You cannot set blockades for 1AM gametime on a Wednesday night. Blockades are shorter. There is established OM precedent for shutting down an uncontested blockade, instead of leaving some poor saps in a sloop sitting there all night. In short, it's just not possible to go about attrition of will nearly as much as it used to be.
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StuManchu

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In short, it's just not possible to go about attrition of will nearly as much as it used to be.


The will just doesn't exist to begin with, nowadays.
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cmdrzoom

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Re: Blockades of Attrition: Yes or No? Reply to this Post
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As an addendum, many of the instances contributing to the Exile simply aren't possible these days.

Yes, RD provided a great service to the Ringers by finding so many exploits which were subsequently patched out of the game.

(There were and, as far as I know, still are people who sincerely believe this.)
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Attrition by no-showing until the other side gives up attending. Nay!

Attrition by turning up every week in force 'til the other side runs out of ships. Aye!
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Culiford

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Attrition by no-showing until the other side gives up attending. Nay!

Attrition by turning up every week in force 'til the other side runs out of ships. Aye!

This.

 
The will just doesn't exist to begin with, nowadays.

People got lazy. I think a lot of people are focusing on "blockades are expensive" instead of "blockades are fun!"
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Roleni

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But the fact that you have a game with war seems semi-ironic when the spirit of the game has been said to have fun. A game is for fun, most of the time, while a war is serious. It's pretty hard to have a war be fun.

Uh...Risk? Civ? Warcraft/Starcraft? AoE? Heck...Chess? There are plenty of war games that are fun.

However...
 
The reward for being good at the blockade puzzle is an island-trinket.

...none of the fun war games gear skillful/successful play toward non-strategic rewards.

Part of why attrition in YPP is so un-fun is because owning or winning an island does not provide a significant advantage over not owning one when it comes to dealing with, engaging in and recovering from a war (of attrition or otherwise).
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Jutecloth

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If owning an island provided a bigger material advantage, Puzzle Pirates would be even worse than it is. The material attrition in sinking blockades is already a huge boon for established alliances of island-holders. It means smaller attacks don't happen and without the cost and effort of fending these off, alliances grow ever larger and more formidable, free from any physical constraints of geography and logistics, free of any financial cost for constant, instant readiness.

There is no way for flags to get good blockade experience without unlimited risk and that's really bad. There's nothing like the defender's prerogative on sinking for the attacker and that means that the biggest, most powerful flags get their power magnified. The major bugbear I have affecting defenders is that they cannot risk losing if they value the aesthetics of their island. It's poor that the additions from an occupation of a week can be impervious to a occupation of months or years.

The minimum expected of an attacker should never be raised by who the defender is, the island itself should determine the most that can be expected. Even then, the idea of a "good faith" attempt is insane. New attackers can hardly ever go into a blockade with any expectation of seriously contesting because blockades are rare and a mass of experience and wealth will be focused on them.

Culiford wrote: 
Bronzebeard wrote: 
Attrition by no-showing until the other side gives up attending. Nay!

Attrition by turning up every week in force 'til the other side runs out of ships. Aye!


This.

Yeah? How does that work? The only way you can do that outnumbered is if your opponent is trying to control more of the board than he needs or if the navigators do not know how to fight.

Culiford wrote: 
StuManchu wrote: 
The will just doesn't exist to begin with, nowadays.


People got lazy. I think a lot of people are focusing on "blockades are expensive" instead of "blockades are fun!"

Seeing efforts smashed by players with an advantage they don't deserve isn't fun. No, the problem is that most players aren't idiots.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Jutecloth at Jan 28, 2010 5:00:29 PM]
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bronzebeard

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Yeah? How does that work? The only way you can do that outnumbered is if your opponent is trying to control more of the board than he needs or if the navigators do not know how to fight.

The way I remember doing it outnumbered was to focus on just wiping out as many ships as possible and let them have their points. The hard part was provoking the defender into thinking a war was a good idea!
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Culiford

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Yeah? How does that work? The only way you can do that outnumbered is if your opponent is trying to control more of the board than he needs or if the navigators do not know how to fight.

Okay, so "ships" is not what would get run out. I think Bronzebeard should've said "til the other side runs out of jobber pay." That, too me, seems to be the more limiting factor. You can always borrow ships for non-sinking blockades (especially if you're a defender and can guarantee a nonsinker). It's much more difficult to borrow millions of PoE to pay jobbers, however.

 
Seeing efforts smashed by players with an advantage they don't deserve isn't fun. No, the problem is that most players aren't idiots.

New flags can get into the blockade game, it just takes some work to get supplies/fleet/pay. It might take a bit of effort, but it's certainly not impossible. (Note: it is significantly harder on dub oceans because of the paywars that are possible, but my experience blockading is on Midnight.) I believe that there are many flags on Midnight that could easily get into the blockade game if they put their minds to it. There's just the obstacle of people not realizing that the island isn't as important as having fun on the blockade board, and the obstacle of having to pay careful attention to the alliance web when choosing targets.
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treepirate88

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But the fact that you have a game with war seems semi-ironic when the spirit of the game has been said to have fun. A game is for fun, most of the time, while a war is serious. It's pretty hard to have a war be fun.

Uh...Risk? Civ? Warcraft/Starcraft? AoE? Heck...Chess? There are plenty of war games that are fun.


Risk, Civilization, Warcraft/Starcraft, Age of Empires, Chess are all short term games in which most resources are already provided or easily obtained. Puzzle Pirates has resources that are not necessarily easy to obtain; hence why it is a bit more serious. More time is put in and more effort is put into Puzzle Pirates to achieve essentially the same effect you're going to get from Risk or any of those other games.


And yes, you are right in the fact that recovering from a "war", I put it in quotes because I don't directly mean war but use it as a term to loosely include everything having to do with island seeking, isn't maybe necessarily as easy as it should be.
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123Jackpot

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I think the real question at hand isn't so much is griefing and harassing permissible, it's more of a case of how do you know when it's happening.
One case was brought up about sinking all the enemies ships until they weren't able to defend.
 
Bronzebeard wrote:
Attrition by turning up every week in force 'til the other side runs out of ships. Aye!

It's easy to say you think that's ok, but I bet there are circumstances where you wouldn't think it would be. For instance, lets say one or two or even three players were wealthy irl, and able to purchase enough dubs to have a fleet bigger than anyone else's. Perhaps these people are not very skilled at blockading but because they have limitless resources are able to blockade week after week after week with little impact to their lives. So they attack the same flag every week knowing that one day they will run out of ships, and probably a few other things. What if this went on for months? Years?

Is there really no point where it should be said, "This goes against the spirit of the game and should be stopped."?

The problem that I have run into with this "rule" is that OOO themselves don't know what the limit is. They have no bar which to measure these cases, so instead they try to judge each case on a case by case basis, based on people's intent. That's a slippery slope. It is no wonder none of us have a clear understanding of what OOO deems as acceptable behavior, OOO doesn't have a clear understanding either.
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cmdrzoom

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Yes, but what's the alternative? As we saw the last (or at least most memorable previous) time this came up, drawing a line in the sand just encourages a certain sort of player to step right up to it and/or try to find a way around it without going "over" it. Some degree of "case by case" discretion and judgment is required; that's what the SotG rule means.
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slimbutt

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It is no wonder none of us have a clear understanding of what OOO deems as acceptable behavior, OOO doesn't have a clear understanding either.

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wrs1864b

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However...
 
The reward for being good at the blockade puzzle is an island-trinket.

...none of the fun war games gear skillful/successful play toward non-strategic rewards.

Apparently, the trinket value of an island is very much enough of a reward.

It is strange to see constant complaints about both "blockades are too expensive!" and "islands don't give enough rewards!". These complaints are contradictory. If islands really didn't give enough reward, people wouldn't be willing to sink millions into taking them, instead there would be complaints about war chests being too expensive.
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Roleni

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How much of a reward isn't what I'm getting at - but what *kind* of reward it is. There's a very important difference.

 
If owning an island provided a bigger material advantage, Puzzle Pirates would be even worse than it is. The material attrition in sinking blockades is already a huge boon for established alliances of island-holders.

We don't know this, because it hasn't been tried. Besides, what kind of material rewards are you thinking of? There are already built up large islands that produce plenty in taxes and flag shoppe revenue, but there are all kinds of ways that islands could be tapped materially that aren't.

Also, I said strategic rewards - which could include material rewards, but could take all sorts of other forms - from live sinking blockade boards to enforce embargoes to commodity spawn control.

 
Risk, Civilization, Warcraft/Starcraft, Age of Empires, Chess are all short term games in which most resources are already provided or easily obtained. Puzzle Pirates has resources that are not necessarily easy to obtain; hence why it is a bit more serious. More time is put in and more effort is put into Puzzle Pirates to achieve essentially the same effect you're going to get from Risk or any of those other games.

Try playing MP Civ on Pitboss with several players...that'll take a year (or more). :P

Anyway - they're specifically designed to be not just war but conquering games - and conquering isn't exactly ideal for an MMO, because then the game "ends"...but with the number of people and volatility involved, that doesn't happen. YPP *could* be a big huge game of Risk. It not only could work, too, it already does, and well: look at EVE.

 
Some degree of "case by case" discretion and judgment is required; that's what the SotG rule means.

That's really not what the SotG sounds like. I'm pretty sure the ToS already included an "at OOO's discretion" clause to begin with, too, if only for legal reasons.
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Thalatta & others

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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Roleni at Jan 28, 2010 8:27:58 PM]
[Jan 28, 2010 8:24:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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The concept that the rules are somehow unknown and unknowable is an odd one to me. One that I generally find to be quite incorrect.
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Leif
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Jan 28, 2010 8:45:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
bronzebeard

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Don't put words in me mouth, lads and lasses.
 
Okay, so "ships" is not what would get run out. I think Bronzebeard should've said "til the other side runs out of jobber pay."

I meant ships although it was probably a rarer event than someone running out o' jobber pay. See, years ago, when I did the blockading thing, me old flag fought against another flag far bigger than our own. They also were allied to a few very large flags whilst we had no (official) allies. So whilst we could attract a lot o' support through other methods, we still could not match their jobbers. Fortunately, leading up to the blockade, we had wound the other flag up to encourage them to make it sinking. Into the second round it was becoming apparent that the blockade was lost, so we just set about sinking as much as we could. We blockaded again whilst war was still in effect and after some close rounds, they ran out o' ships at the island. It was hard fer the other side to borrow more ships with it being a sinker and although they found some extra vessels, it threw their plan into disarray and we cruised to victory.

 
It's easy to say you think that's ok, but I bet there are circumstances where you wouldn't think it would be. For instance, lets say one or two or even three players were wealthy irl, and able to purchase enough dubs to have a fleet bigger than anyone else's. Perhaps these people are not very skilled at blockading but because they have limitless resources are able to blockade week after week after week with little impact to their lives. So they attack the same flag every week knowing that one day they will run out of ships, and probably a few other things. What if this went on for months? Years?

Is there really no point where it should be said, "This goes against the spirit of the game and should be stopped."?

Actually, I see nothing wrong with the technique itself. I see more of a problem with doubloon oceans letting mates buy victory. I doubt Three Rings are going to change anything that will lead to less doubloons being purchased though.

What if an island was really valuable and blockaded by different flags week in, week out, what's the difference?
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[Jan 29, 2010 2:47:41 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheRack

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But the fact that you have a game with war seems semi-ironic when the spirit of the game has been said to have fun. A game is for fun, most of the time, while a war is serious. It's pretty hard to have a war be fun.

Uh...Risk? Civ? Warcraft/Starcraft? AoE? Heck...Chess? There are plenty of war games that are fun.


Risk, Civilization, Warcraft/Starcraft, Age of Empires, Chess are all short term games in which most resources are already provided or easily obtained. Puzzle Pirates has resources that are not necessarily easy to obtain; hence why it is a bit more serious. More time is put in and more effort is put into Puzzle Pirates to achieve essentially the same effect you're going to get from Risk or any of those other games.


And yes, you are right in the fact that recovering from a "war", I put it in quotes because I don't directly mean war but use it as a term to loosely include everything having to do with island seeking, isn't maybe necessarily as easy as it should be.

Analogy that came to mind was comparing to a WWII based game. Most games have you starting at August 1939. At start up, your only a breath away from playing boomy.

YPP starts you somewhere around 1927 - Life is good for a few moments, but the great depression of starting up a new flag, getting people to join from scratch hits hard. From there, you spend quite some time going through the slow process of going through the military buildup until you have a war fleet and a crew itching to play boomy...
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[Jan 29, 2010 5:17:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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The problem that I have run into with this "rule" is that OOO themselves don't know what the limit is. They have no bar which to measure these cases, so instead they try to judge each case on a case by case basis, based on people's intent. That's a slippery slope. It is no wonder none of us have a clear understanding of what OOO deems as acceptable behavior, OOO doesn't have a clear understanding either.

Sometimes, it's not about where the limit is, it's about the intent. And no, intent is not a slippery slope. At least not slippery enough to fall over.
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