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Roleni

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Re: Guide to a Shoppe Blockade Reply to this Post
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Yeah, and nothing about OOO policy or its enforcement has changed in 4 1/2 years. <_<
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Thalatta & others

Hera tells ye, "You got me so flustered by the spanking, I booched my chat response!"
Hera tells ye, "Purple is the most awesome colour ever!"
[Jan 27, 2010 8:25:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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The only way that's changed is that they now tolerate people doing the things RD was exiled for. It's gone the other way, not towards banning what Mads is saying people get banned for.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 27, 2010 8:26:36 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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How can you take what Cleaver said, plain as day in his second post. Which is "Attrition has no place in the game". And then, try and tell us that, oh he only means this; No where is it written that he means Attrition = RobertDonald - No show dropping (Which I have also been the victim of and nothing has ever been done about it.)


I guess what im asking for is proof, and you have nothing to offer me as an explanation besides the way you interpret it.

Also it's funny you would say that Mads claimed that people were getting banned for something, because Mads never said banned anywhere in his one post in this thread.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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sweetnessc

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Because Cleaver specifically came back to the thread to clarify what he meant by the word attrition. I know it's a bloody long thread to read the whole thing, but he did come back to clarify that point in particular.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 27, 2010 9:11:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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Well if thats the case, why won't OOO send us a definitive answer of , Yes this is ok, or No this isn't.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
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sweetnessc

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OOO doesn't generally give blanket answers to anything. I've gotten definitive answers several times when it relates to specific plans, and likewise, declining to action complaints made also gives definitive answers. I expect it's because of how the question has been presented.
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 27, 2010 9:30:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
dalnoth

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So we still have no proof that Cleaver believes that Attrition of all kinds has no place in the game, and you have no proof that it's ok. Maybe we should make a thread dedicated to it.
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Dalnoth
Novo tells ye, "Howtie removed me as a manager from her tailor, my wager swordfighting career is over :(."
[Jan 27, 2010 9:32:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://somethingawful.com [Link]  Go to top 
sweetnessc

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I've got all the evidence I need to rely on it. If you feel you need more, that's your call to make.

Not sure what you think making a second thread about the same thing will accomplish, but go right ahead. :-)
----------------------------------------
My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world. ~ Jack Layton

Sublime is shame.
[Jan 27, 2010 10:00:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BehindCurtai

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He says "Endless War" AND "Grind downs". He doens't say The endless war-grind downs. he's talking about 2 seperate things in his first post. Believe me, I've researched this alot.


Cleaver wrote: 
Read the post I made; attrition means wearing the other side down until they have lost the will to fight. The intent of the game is that it is a fun competition between the parties. More blockades that are fun, fair and challenging is fine and good. Repeated 'endless war' blockades and no-shows to grind down defenders is not acceptable.


Cleaver, on the subject of attrition wrote: 
Now, that's not to say that the game design doesn't make than obvious tactic, and for that I acknowledge fault.


 
The only way that's changed is that they now tolerate people doing the things RD was exiled for.

And if that tactic is no longer exiling people? Then end the "temporary exile", and let him back into the game. With Fandango gone, he might actually bring life back to Midnight :-).

If a no-show blockade is exilable, then what about me? I've declared blockades on Ice, gotten no jobbers, and had to cancel -- have I broken the spirit of the game? Sometimes there has been no one else, and the other side had a two hour flagsit. Othertimes, there have been others contending.

===
Economic blockading of a shop by forcing them to make low profit items is not wearing them down.

If they have set prices such that they make pitifully tiny profits, then that is their problem; they should adjust their labor markups for basic labor. Yes, that may cost them some sales given the lack of a furnisher puzzle and the ease of self-supply of basic, but that's an issue with almost all labor industries..

We've seen other threads on how to PvP enemy shops. This isn't news/first.

Oh, and yea -- please, attack my shops in this manner. PLEASE, I beg you!

p.s.: What has been done to make attrition/wearing down the enemy will to play/repeated attacks less of an obvious tactic?
----------------------------------------
"We're trying to find the error bars on that number"

Dylan wrote: 
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basso

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Anyone with a shop empire worth over 100m (I would know) would have no problem dealing with this. In fact, they would encourage it. I am sure Srjan has his use/costs on labor high enough to be profiting massively on you guys for doing this. Not everyone sells stools for under cost, and if he does.....well good job then.
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Montage of Sage
Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

[Jan 27, 2010 10:50:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Maskforum

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Nice to know what all that tarting in the Hunter Parley is about now.
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Mask - Hunter Ocean
Island degisner
[Jan 27, 2010 11:48:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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If I say rude things, will you fill my queues too? Unless they're incompetent with their use cost and labour rates, you're just giving them money.

Undercutting their prices and 1-upping their dockside buy prices would be a much more effective 'blockade', though it could get expensive.
----------------------------------------
Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[Jan 28, 2010 3:58:01 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TheRack

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Really stretching the memory banks here (I'm thinking pre multi ocean times), but haven't there been cases where the OM's have canceled orders in stalls that have been placed for no other reason than to grief the stall holder (Such as somebody spamming an apoth for 1000s of paint brushes days on end)?
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Cephalopod, on poker, wrote: 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it isn't rigged.

Period. End of story.

[Jan 28, 2010 5:42:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
vnork



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Anyone with a shop empire worth over 100m (I would know) would have no problem dealing with this. In fact, they would encourage it. I am sure Srjan has his use/costs on labor high enough to be profiting massively on you guys for doing this. Not everyone sells stools for under cost, and if he does.....well good job then.

Srjan's contention is that they're forcing him to only make 10k-30k a week (the figure is disputed), when he would normally make much more than that in the same time frame. Certainly in a furnisher or tailor with so many products, it's easy for even an experienced shoppekeeper to accidently price a couple items so to be still comfortably above cost, but would cause you to be annoyed if they were ordered in bulk, so I do understand Srjan's frustration a little. It's clearly not griefing though, but definitely a lesson to take to heart if you have not-so-friendly relationships with those with PoE to burn.

Therack- In the case of bulk orders before losing an outpost shoppe in a blockade, an OM has said before that you can just let the shoppe go dark to cancel orders that haven't been worked on. I'm not sure if it's allowable to intentionally do the same tactic as a normal shoppekeeper. If it causes the consumer to lose their sales tax they paid (I'm not sure how that works), then it's probably not a good idea.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by vnork at Jan 28, 2010 7:24:52 AM]
[Jan 28, 2010 7:21:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
mads0001

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The only way that's changed is that they now tolerate people doing the things RD was exiled for. It's gone the other way, not towards banning what Mads is saying people get banned for.


I never said people get banned for it, just to clarify, only that it wasn't an approach that was meant to be encouraged. To that end though, it's an obvious playstyle, and you can find many examples of it being employed without consequence.

The point was more of a side note to ascotte though. And dalnoth has probably gone a few steps towards attrition himself, definition is key!
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rachaelj wrote: 

"your standing in patronising has gone up and is now respected in your archipelago"
spelling corrected by Mads(tm) :P
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[Jan 28, 2010 2:32:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
123Jackpot

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Actually I did get a somewhat vague answer back from the OMs regarding the BTV greif-a-thon that in a very non committal way agreed it was a case of harassment.

"I don't think that attrition has much of a place in a fun, social online game. Now, that's not to say that the game design doesn't make than obvious tactic, and for that I acknowledge fault. Attrition is pretty much by definition griefing, as it relies on wearing down (primarily, esp. in the case of established Midnight flags who can field essentially bottomless resources) the enemy's will to fight. I've warned about using this kind of tactic, now is the time to send a clear message that it's not acceptable." - Cleaver

The problem with this is it's very hard to prove. In our case we were able to show damages (not loss of potential gains, but actual loss,) in the millions each week. In order to recoup those poes, maintain the blockade fleet, and sustain our jobber pool we also forced to 20+ hours a week of extra play time keeping it all together. In addition to that our enemy openly stated they had no desire to hold our island only to spend our poe. It was a fairly clear case. And after 7 or 8 weeks in a row, tisk tisk OOO for not taking action sooner, it was also a fairly extreme case.

"Blockading" a shoppe is a very different thing however. There are no losses, simply smaller than expected gains. It doesn't cost the shop owners anything, it does not require extra time or effort for the shop owners or managers. I've done quite a bit of research attrition according to OOO and I'm not sure how that relates to this. All the resources being exhausted are paid for; not just at cost, but actually above cost. How on earth is that attrition?
There could perhaps be a case for harassment here, but it's a pretty weak case. Basically saying, "I don't like it make them stop!" Don't get me wrong I don't think it's a nice thing to so to someone, unless they aren't getting orders in the first place. I just don't think it's "criminal."
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by 123Jackpot at Jan 28, 2010 5:31:06 PM]
[Jan 28, 2010 5:21:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Srjan

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Anyone with a shop empire worth over 100m (I would know) would have no problem dealing with this. In fact, they would encourage it. I am sure Srjan has his use/costs on labor high enough to be profiting massively on you guys for doing this. Not everyone sells stools for under cost, and if he does.....well good job then.

Thought I'd drop by to say what I find problematic here.

I am not upset, I am not grieved, I am not losing any poe (losing on larger profits, but not losing poe per se).

The problem, as I see it, is that their actions are clearly grieving, regardless whether I am in grief or not. The barometer isn't how hurt I am as a victim, it is how grievous the offender's actions are. A painless murder or a tortured murder is still a murder - dramatic huh? lol

I guess I might be looking at it with a skewed perspective, but running my shoppes is the only reason I log on to this game, and have been for the past year at least. The two clowns responsible for this know it, and are deliberately trying to ruin my game experience. Thousands (literally, not an exaggeration) of orders of stools and plain shirts somehow doesn't equate to repeated actions for the sole purpose of ruining someone's game experience. What fun is it to log on, see another 200 stool orders, then log off? :P

And in general these actions aren't against the spirit of the game? Apparently not.
----------------------------------------
IGN Srjan

Srjan says: Have a look at the new limited edition midas rowboat. http://blog.puzzlepirates.com/spyglass/entry/april_s_le_ship_is
Lovette says: Ok, we need more gold nuggets
[Jan 28, 2010 11:54:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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There could perhaps be a case for harassment here, but it's a pretty weak case.

Uhm... they just pretty much confessed to harassment.

Sometime the only distinction between what is legitimate and what is not is the intention.

Profit is irrelevant. If a mega-flag were to get all its members to continuously send 10 poe to someone who they deem to have insulted them, with the sole aim of 'punishing' that person by filling up their chat whenever they are on, it would still be griefing. Or at least it should be. Srjan mentioned 'thousands' of orders. If I were Srjan, I would lodge a formal complaint petition, explaining how that kind of action ruins my game experience.
----------------------------------------
Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Jan 29, 2010 7:18:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
nicolas_hop

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If I were Srjan, I would lodge a formal complaint petition, explaining how that kind of action ruins my game experience.


He did.
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Natacha on the Hunter Ocean.
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[Jan 29, 2010 7:35:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
grizzlyly

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If I were Srjan, I would lodge a formal complaint petition, explaining how that kind of action ruins my game experience.


He did.



How are they ruining his game experience? Sjran stated he hasn't had much playing time so they decided to step up and run his shop for him.
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Kickhead on Hunter

Kickie forced Clotho to walk the plank.
Clotho has left the vessel.

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[Jan 29, 2010 7:38:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Outcome? Or is it still pending?

Seriously, I don't want to dive into Hunter parley for this.
----------------------------------------
Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Jan 29, 2010 7:39:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DKE



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The problem, as I see it, is that their actions are clearly grieving, regardless whether I am in grief or not. The barometer isn't how hurt I am as a victim, it is how grievous the offender's actions are. A painless murder or a tortured murder is still a murder - dramatic huh? lol

I guess I might be looking at it with a skewed perspective, but running my shoppes is the only reason I log on to this game, and have been for the past year at least. The two clowns responsible for this know it, and are deliberately trying to ruin my game experience. Thousands (literally, not an exaggeration) of orders of stools and plain shirts somehow doesn't equate to repeated actions for the sole purpose of ruining someone's game experience. What fun is it to log on, see another 200 stool orders, then log off? :P

And in general these actions aren't against the spirit of the game? Apparently not.


And now everyone can see. He never answers any of the complaints alleged against him. Never defends his coward action of remaining flag-less. He just throws in "lols" and more insults and acts like a wounded child. Hopefully this will elucidate the rest of the oceans to a small aspect of the behavior that caused the embargo.
----------------------------------------
~Lorddke~
-Captain of -Obliteration-
-Lord of Clandestine
-Indiana Jones of Hunter
[Jan 29, 2010 7:44:51 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Never defends his coward action of remaining flag-less.

I'm sorry. Where I come from, when a group of 100+ asks a group of 2 to "step outside so we can settle this", we usually apply the word "coward" to the larger group. Perhaps it's different where you come from?
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Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Jan 29, 2010 7:59:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Srjan

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Official OM response has been: can't do anything about it, not even ask them to stop, sorry.
Unofficial OM response has been: try to ignore the idiots and come back to the game in a week (their exact words).
----------------------------------------
IGN Srjan

Srjan says: Have a look at the new limited edition midas rowboat. http://blog.puzzlepirates.com/spyglass/entry/april_s_le_ship_is
Lovette says: Ok, we need more gold nuggets
[Jan 29, 2010 8:09:18 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
DKE



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I'm sorry. Where I come from, when a group of 100+ asks a group of 2 to "step outside so we can settle this", we usually apply the word "coward" to the larger group. Perhaps it's different where you come from?


It was only two of us. Jackpot and myself. Other people jumped in through their own hatred for Srjan. I have repeatedly hinted at ways to "go outside and settle this". He'll just insult me, say lol, get acrimonious and be done.
----------------------------------------
~Lorddke~
-Captain of -Obliteration-
-Lord of Clandestine
-Indiana Jones of Hunter
[Jan 29, 2010 8:13:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
pomfret

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Ahh... there is probably more to all of this than us non-Hunter residents would understand. Never mind. Carry on.
----------------------------------------
Pomfret of Midnight Cerulean and Most Oceans
Except when I am Scroogie or somebody else

Stupid merger made me change my signature...
[Jan 29, 2010 8:25:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Star09

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I'm sorry. Where I come from, when a group of 100+ asks a group of 2 to "step outside so we can settle this", we usually apply the word "coward" to the larger group. Perhaps it's different where you come from?


It was only two of us. Jackpot and myself. Other people jumped in through their own hatred for Srjan. I have repeatedly hinted at ways to "go outside and settle this". He'll just insult me, say lol, get acrimonious and be done.


Other jumped in = lorddke/jackpot flaggies + a few of their friends. Those are the same people that always insult Srjan on forum (yea even on this thread). It all started because Srjan gave his own opinion they don't like them. If you don't bow to them, they'll attack you.

When did you repeatedly hinted go outside and settle this, other than insult Srjan at any chance you can lol. Srjan is not the type that insult people, and i have never seen him doing it. He always states his opinion and pointing out the truth or what was wrong. Don't make up stuff and get the same old few flaggies/friends to support it everytime.

You guys look bad enough. Just stop it already.
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Lovette From Hunter Ocean

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[Jan 29, 2010 8:59:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
BobJanova

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huntards
----------------------------------------
Bobjanova on Viridian and Malachite
Shops and stalls with fair and profitable wages for all: Jubilee, Napi, Chelydra
Stripped/Barely Dressed (Malachite)
Phantasm/Reign of Chaos (Viridian)
[Jan 29, 2010 11:36:10 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jonox20

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I would think that it would be considered griefing. Not only after buying so many but when one of these 2 stool buyers runs a tourney with a card saying go buy more stools from that shoppe.Thats at the time i think it crossed that thin line.
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EAC member for life
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cmdrzoom

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In the end, it's not up to us. The TOS says "the Ringers, in their sole discretion..."
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Starhawk of Mad Mutineers, Azure
Catalina of Twilight's Sabre, Cobalt
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