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Squashbuckle

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Gotta disagree there, Polly, as one of the people who was left out, I sure hope they do have another one.


I was refering to the condescending attitude of those who went being a reason not to have another, not the reasonable complaints from those who were left out.

People stuck on the outside have a right to be upset. If the representatives of the biggest flags can't comprehend why, and they then go on to be directly and unapologetically condescending to those who expressed displeasure, they are lousy representatives. If the representatives don't represent most players, and the monarchs of conferences past clearly didn't, the conference is a waste.
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Polly
Hunter
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Gothmog1065

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One problem with such a conference is who is really represented?
The high end and elite players. Their intrests are diffrent from the average player.

Howso? Seems most of the "greenies" you speak of also want money, fame, familiars and so on just like the "elite" players. The problem here is you seem to put people into two subsets of players. "Elite" and "Greenies", which is just as "elitist" as the few who think they're better than everyone else. There are many more categories and sub categories thereof. A few examples:

Experienced players (3+ years): Generally have "In depth" knowledge of the game, and simply from being around for so long have a good understanding of the game itself. These guys have seen it all. Crews rise to the top and fall apart, some rise and stay, some never really rise and stay, seen players come and go, seen the tartfests and other things.
- The "Elite" who are good at the various actual puzzles and less actual puzzles (Shoppekeeping, social, forum). They may have learned these puzzles through years of hard work and aren't necessarily all ultimates.
- The not so elite who aren't quite a good at the foremost puzzles, yet they may still have a large say in what goes on.

Normal players (3/6 months - 3 years): Have a firm grasp of the game, yet don't know quite everything yet, but who are still learning.
- Again with the "elite": Those who have natural talent and are good at the puzzles. Generally driven to conquer all, may be thwarted by the networks and social puzzles of the experienced players.
- Normal players - Those who just play the game to play it, don't have much of a drive, but like the game and have friends.
- "Greenies" (Yellow named players with green attitudes) - Those who never want to learn, have no drive, want things handed to them for free. The vast majority of players fit into this category it seems. These pirates generally don't stay around long enough to become truly salted.

True Greenies: (0 months - 3/6 months) Learning the game. Some have drive, some don't. Some beg, some don't. Some stay quiet and learn things, some are loud and noisy and never learn a thing. Some have natural talent, but most don't. You can quickly tell lazy greenies from ones who will be around for a long time or have skill and power before long.

 
Example; many forum posters seem to think master is an average stat. Forum posters in general are upper level in wealth and talent and rarely consider the best interests of new players.
Master IS an average stat. Bold master pirates (Ones who play the puzzle frequently, but just can't quite push it to better levels) may have many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in. They may not be puzzle minded, but this doesn't mean they're not hard workers.

 
A conference would amplify this gap.

Not necessarily. Many of those seasoned players want what's best for the game, but they do tend to forget about how hard it was to start and learn. People like you who have this "elite" and "non elite" mindset are the people amplifying the gap.

 
The best thing for the game is to get more new players. More first time navs. More of the hated greenies.

But who's going to train them? The problem is the fact that many new players that may have stayed a while get hit by the Yellow Greenie captains, and see that the game may be a terrible experience, and leave. You make it sound so simple, but it's not. It's not getting people to play the game, but getting people to continue playing the game.

Mind you, there is a gap between most elite crews and new players. The problem is once people hit a certain point, they don't care much about having a crew, dealing with new players and stuff. There's only a handful of crews that can truly train new pirates the way they need to be trained. It's a problem, so why don't you Slimmy get out there and start working on it?
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Nemesis wrote: 
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Arakael wrote: 
Goth is right, as usual.
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Goth is right. *shudders*

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Talisker

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Gotta disagree there, Polly, as one of the people who was left out, I sure hope they do have another one.


I was refering to the condescending attitude of those who went being a reason not to have another, not the reasonable complaints from those who were left out.

People stuck on the outside have a right to be upset. If the representatives of the biggest flags can't comprehend why, and they then go on to be directly and unapologetically condescending to those who expressed displeasure, they are lousy representatives. If the representatives don't represent most players, and the monarchs of conferences past clearly didn't, the conference is a waste.


And the condescending attitude of those who didn't go would indicate what then?
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Leif
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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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Grinfish

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And the condescending attitude of those who didn't go would indicate what then?

The need for a damn good chiropractor?
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Unretired, still No regrets.
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sweetnessc

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You don't get a flag with high fame by not playing with other people, guys. That's the basic equation you seem to have overlooked.
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basso

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Also, the obvious fact is that everyone can't be represented, ever. So if something represents only 30% of players, it can still be valuable. It certainly shouldn't be the only source of information, but it can be useful. Its not like this is a final conference deciding the future of the game.
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Mads wrote: 
OK, now I'm convinced. The problem here is that you cannot understand plain English.

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Grinfish

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You don't get a flag with high fame by not playing with other people, guys. That's the basic equation you seem to have overlooked.

Depends on your definition of playing. You can buy your way up the Fame table without a great deal of social interaction.
----------------------------------------
Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey.
Retired, No regrets.
Unretired, still No regrets.
Available in Cerulean and Obsidian flavours.

Briggs wrote: 
StuManchu puts the "sensual" back in "Nonconsensual"

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ssandv



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As for this being a pretend environment with pretend monarchs, yes - you're right. However, within the confines of the game, the players have given the captains, royalty, and monarchs implied authority to speak on their behalf in any number of game situations. Even if you did not "elect" your in-game leadership, by your continued membership in the crew/flag, you accept the "play time" authority that the in-game position represents. Disagree? Start your own flag.


Thank you for making the point for me. As I said - it's represents a confusion between the imaginary and reality. Between "play time" and real life. You're absolutely right about players accepting the "play time" authority of their in-game monarchs by virtue of their being members in the first place. However, representing our interests as consumers to a company with whom we do business is not "play time." That's real life, where pretend monarchs have absolutely no authority or standing whatsoever.

They absolutely have standing. They're almost without exception among the most frequent players, and many of them have much more broad-based interests in game than they typical pirate, or at least are aware (by virtue of running a successful flag) of the need to balance many competing demands on a poor pirate's time. They don't have to represent our interests, per se, because it's in *their* interests as monarchs to see that *our* interests as pirates are met.

Whether they do a good job of representing those interests is another question altogether. But it's not a matter of authority, it's a matter of experience.

The fact that they used monarchy as their proxy doesn't mean they couldn't choose other proxies another time (I vote swordfighting and rigging experience!). I would, for sure, argue that monarchs are more likely to be prepared to represent the average pirate than any *other* exceptional group of pirates you select--and selecting 30 average pirates would just be an exercise in chatspeak these days. So you have to select exceptional pirates.
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Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

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Squashbuckle

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You don't get a flag with high fame by not playing with other people, guys. That's the basic equation you seem to have overlooked.


You can pay captains of smaller crews to merge into yours. You can go on duty as a greeter and dockpress everyone who spawns at the starter island and run greeter "pillages" that also involve dockpressing. Job for one of the top crews on Hunter some time if you don't understand what I mean.

Even when captains do play with their crew, they can be woefully out of touch. I'm a captain, and I couldn't tell you what half my crew would want to tell the OMs. Yes, I could poll them (and did before the one conference I attended), but since much of the conference was discussion, rather than listing ideas, I certainly couldn't discuss anything from any point of view but my own.

Hypnos primarily got a hard-core elite PoV from everyone, which is the same PoV that already pervades the forums, and is absolutely a minority perspective. Slimbottom hit that nail on the head.
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Polly
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tarajayne

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I didn't mean to be condescending. Sorry if it seemed that way.
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Bridalgirl

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Talisker

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Even when captains do play with their crew, they can be woefully out of touch. I'm a captain, and I couldn't tell you what half my crew would want to tell the OMs. Yes, I could poll them (and did before the one conference I attended), but since much of the conference was discussion, rather than listing ideas, I certainly couldn't discuss anything from any point of view but my own.

Contrariwise, some of us represented our flags concerns well. True, it's an issue if monarchs invited are woefully out of touch, or can't present their flags ideas, but in both I went to, that didn't seem to be the case.
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Leif
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Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Talisker at May 6, 2009 5:37:20 PM]
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Dewei

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Hypnos primarily got a hard-core elite PoV from everyone, which is the same PoV that already pervades the forums, and is absolutely a minority perspective. Slimbottom hit that nail on the head.


How is it you define "elite" Polly? As Gothmog stated already in the thread, elites are defined *roughly* as pirates with 3+ years under their feet. Non elites (Normal pirates) in general are those with 6- 3 years under their feet.

Which would you rather have? People who are still learning the game, or those who know the game? I would personally place my money in the hands of a monarch who has experience in the game, because they will (hopefully) know what most players want, or they would know what would improve the game. If you want minority perspectives, then don't complain about the crews that pay their way to the top or dockpress. Most likely those crews are "Non elites" and so now you have have your minority perspective.

In a way Dub oceans' top ten flags have a bit of both minority and majority players. That means Hypnos was able to get issues from both parties. Does it mean all players will agree? Probably not, but you still have a little of both.


Also keep in mind it isn't just dub oceans Hypnos did this on, at the time there were was 5 oceans Hypnos did this on, that's roughly 50 so flags, and let's say each flag had an average of... 75 to 100 players. If we multiply 75 with 50, we get more then 3,500 players. If most of the flags asked for opinions from their mates, then we might be able to say that roughly half the player base (at the time) got their opinions in.

I'm not trying to target you alone Polly, but the trend I'm seeing in the thread is that flags buy their way to the top (which I considered as minorities) and then the fact that minorities aren't being represented. *Edited to make the last paragraph more clear*
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Only in their dreams can men be truly free.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Dewei at May 6, 2009 6:18:43 PM]
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Squashbuckle

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As I've said before, I'd rather no one have special access to the OMs.

People who are still learning the game can provide a very valuable perspective (that of a new customer who knows what they want to see to become a long-term customer) that we old salts cannot possibly give. Those of us who have been around forever likely aren't going anywhere, and there aren't enough of us for OOO to survive just by keeping us happy.

Obviously a more seasoned perspective will be valuable for certain topics as well, but we constantly give that perspective here on the forums. OOO doesn't need to hear our voices. They don't need to hear anyone's voices, but if they are looking for more feedback, I hope they choose to reach out to those who aren't active on the forums (typically newer players) to get a fresh perspective. This can be done through a survey linked from the noticeboard, for instance, or via Office Hours type sessions, also advertised in-game to attract more people than just us forumers.
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Polly
Hunter
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Quack_688



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Example; many forum posters seem to think master is an average stat. Forum posters in general are upper level in wealth and talent and rarely consider the best interests of new players.
Master IS an average stat. Bold master pirates (Ones who play the puzzle frequently, but just can't quite push it to better levels) may have many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in. They may not be puzzle minded, but this doesn't mean they're not hard workers.

Someone getting "many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in" is significantly above average. If 50% of the scoring curve is able, then really, even distinguished is above average.

Regarding monarch conferences - there'll always be some grief about who gets picked, some time might be spent discussing the same issue on multiple oceans, and I imagine there'd be a perception (valid or not) that those conferences would focus on what monarchs want, not what average players want. One benefit of conferences, compared to GD, would be that they force everyone to be much more concise - is there any way we could apply that here? I wouldn't mind seeing a one-off GD thread sit there for a week where people simply say (briefly) what changes they'd like to see, and can link to previous threads, and support (or oppose) things proposed by others, but nothing gets dev-quoted or list-anti-list-linked until the end. The point isn't to actually discuss the pros and cons of these issues, but just to see which issues generate the most interest among today's players, and put that information together in a format which is readable without a meal break. Even if "racks for shops" appears twenty times. :-p

Actually, looking at the 2007 conference record, this bit at the end caught my eye:
 
Some of us chatted afterwards and thought it would be very good to have somewhere where players could weigh in on their highest priorities - Blackfletch suggested some kind of website where players could visit and rank what changes would be most important to them.

Did anything like that actually happen? Conferences and GD both only involve a very small proportion of the player base. Like Polly said, we've got surveys now. Get a basic list of issues from conferences or GD, put together a survey, advertise it in-game, and see what boxes get ticked. While also advertising the existence of the forums, of course ("If you want to discuss these suggestions, or have a suggestion which isn't on this list, have a look here").

Wildturkey, Malachite
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Rick9109

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I can tell you the ones I went to had at least one player who hires everyone from the notice board to everything and is a captain of a crew that's lasted for 5 years at a high level based on reaching out to people who the elitists neglect.
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I can tell you the ones I went to had at least one player who hires everyone from the notice board to everything and is a captain of a crew that's lasted for 5 years at a high level based on reaching out to people who the elitists neglect.

Greeter pillages?
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Furarri

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From the greenie ocean, Hunter. I think Slim's and Polly's concerns are that all levels of play should be represented.

I have every confidence in the GD's to try to implement plans fair to all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Thats where the forums and surveys help them tweak the game. If the conference happens, don't forget the little guys. Remember the first time you bought a ship and how that felt! That is your primary responsibility if chosen.

FTR, pretty much the only thing Polly and Slim ever agree on is that the rules should be the same for everyone.
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Antique

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They absolutely have standing. They're almost without exception among the most frequent players, and many of them have much more broad-based interests in game than they typical pirate, or at least are aware (by virtue of running a successful flag) of the need to balance many competing demands on a poor pirate's time. They don't have to represent our interests, per se, because it's in *their* interests as monarchs to see that *our* interests as pirates are met.

Whether they do a good job of representing those interests is another question altogether. But it's not a matter of authority, it's a matter of experience.


That (bolded) is exactly the point some of us are making. "Monarchs" is, by and large, a homogenous group representing a small, minority subset of the players of this game. One that's already extremely well-represented here in the forums. As you yourself said, they are not typical players.

 

The fact that they used monarchy as their proxy doesn't mean they couldn't choose other proxies another time (I vote swordfighting and rigging experience!). I would, for sure, argue that monarchs are more likely to be prepared to represent the average pirate than any *other* exceptional group of pirates you select--and selecting 30 average pirates would just be an exercise in chatspeak these days. So you have to select exceptional pirates.


It partly comes down, I think, to how we conceive of these conferences. (I'll take a minute here to inject, as well, that I always found this "pretend monarch given standing to represent me as a consumer in real-life" factor mildly annoying, but it's not something I cared a huge amount about. If it were, I'd have brought this up back when we were having the monarch conferences.) These conferences could be viewed in a couple of different ways:

(A) The attendees are a sort of player delegate representing the interests of the player base at large.

(B) It's a focus group.

The presentation around the events themselves always treated them as the former. Which is where I assert real-life primacy over pretend monarchies. I'm a paying customer using some of my hard-earned money to buy a product. You don't "represent" me in my dealings with that company unless I ask you to. Period. If, in fact, these attendees are intended to actually represent the player base, I'd submit there are two selection criteria far more important that what sort of role one plays in the imaginary world.

(1) AGE - Adults only. Chatspeak problem solved.

(2) PAYING CUSTOMERS ONLY - By which I mean paying, not doub sinking. As a paying customer, my interests are not represented by anyone who isn't. If freeloaders don't even warrant the OM time/effort of a banplead, they certainly don't warrant a direct-level of access to support staff that the vast majority of actual customers don't have. Or, if you prefer, no Representation without Taxation.

If, on the other hand, these are focus groups, there's no point in repeatedly running the same focus group on the same narrow demographic over and over again. OOO would learn far more by setting entirely disparate criteria each time they held such a conference, or even by doing a completely random selection. (Or, as has been said, with instruments like surveys.)
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Talisker

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If, on the other hand, these are focus groups, there's no point in repeatedly running the same focus group on the same narrow demographic over and over again. OOO would learn far more by setting entirely disparate criteria each time they held such a conference, or even by doing a completely random selection. (Or, as has been said, with instruments like surveys.)


Well, the second was run with some different criteria than the first, and then there have been the numerous surveys and office hours. It does look like a broad net is being cast.
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Leif
The Forums
Gunnermooch wrote: 
I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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Antique

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If it is a focus group, I care even less about who's in it . . . . just present it as such without any fallacious claims that I'm being "represented." (ie drop the pretentious "Conference of Monarchs" bit and just say "focus group." If the members of that focus group happen to all be monarchs . . . that still looks to me to be a slim and unrepresentative sample, but if that's what OOO wants to hear, so be it.)

But, if it is a focus group, I think it'd be very interesting to OOO to turn one of my selection criteria on it's head - a "conference" of players who formerly paid for the game, but don't anymore, thereby possibly illuminating the answer to the question, "Why did you stop?"
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Antique of Cerulean!
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ssandv



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The idea that nobody has special access to the OMs is farcical on its face. They're players. And they *should* be.

It's just that some people have spent years (and thousands of posts!) nursing absurd conspiracy theories and ridiculous, untenable ideas of game administration, and other people just play the game.

You want condescending? There. *That's* condescending.

Nothing was hurt by the conferences of the monarchs, and Rome and Leif give (as usual) excellent points about how it was completely possible for the monarchs to convey the concerns of the ocean at large. If in some oceans they failed to do so, that sucks. But it's pretty clear the game hasn't shifted more in favor of the elitists since those conferences.
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Darksand (back again!)
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Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

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ssandv



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But, if it is a focus group, I think it'd be very interesting to OOO to turn one of my selection criteria on it's head - a "conference" of players who formerly paid for the game, but don't anymore, thereby possibly illuminating the answer to the question, "Why did you stop?"
They already ask that when you unsubscribe. What else would you like them to be way ahead of you on?
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Darksand (back again!)
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Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

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If in some oceans they failed to do so, that sucks. But it's pretty clear the game hasn't shifted more in favor of the elitists since those conferences.


In fact I'd argue that it's shifted away from their favor. I was about to make the point that regardless of access to OMs, the elitists have been ignored just as much as the "commons" or whatever the hell you want to call them.

Conference was great. I was in on the first one, and we even managed to put away quite a bit of game-relationship animosity to actually talk about stuff.
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[May 7, 2009 8:48:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Antique

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But, if it is a focus group, I think it'd be very interesting to OOO to turn one of my selection criteria on it's head - a "conference" of players who formerly paid for the game, but don't anymore, thereby possibly illuminating the answer to the question, "Why did you stop?"
They already ask that when you unsubscribe. What else would you like them to be way ahead of you on?


I suggested that based on the radical premise that an actual conversation might be more illuminating than the simple non-interactive answers that people may or may not bother to type in a box on their way out.

(Not entirely unlike the central premise of people saying we need these conferences in the first place when we already have Game Design . . . .)
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[May 7, 2009 8:50:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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But, if it is a focus group, I think it'd be very interesting to OOO to turn one of my selection criteria on it's head - a "conference" of players who formerly paid for the game, but don't anymore, thereby possibly illuminating the answer to the question, "Why did you stop?"
They already ask that when you unsubscribe. What else would you like them to be way ahead of you on?


I suggested that based on the radical premise that an actual conversation might be more illuminating than the simple non-interactive answers that people may or may not bother to type in a box on their way out.

(Not entirely unlike the central premise of people saying we need these conferences in the first place when we already have Game Design . . . .)


I submit that in this case (as in this forum!), the major problem would be a selection bias issue. Certain types of unsubscribers are *far* more likely to want to talk to OOO than others already. Asking them make time for a conference would only aggravate this.

Stop saying need. The question was never whether they were needed. The question was whether their value outweighed their cost. They are obviously, empirically, not needed, by any reasonable definition of the word need. Trying to frame the debate as an argument about whether they were, or are needed is a significant error, and inexcusable as a matter of honest discussion, as it forces one side to defend the obviously indefensible.
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Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 7, 2009 8:56:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Somewhat of a side track, but it goes to the "elitist" aspect:


 
 
 
Example; many forum posters seem to think master is an average stat. Forum posters in general are upper level in wealth and talent and rarely consider the best interests of new players.
Master IS an average stat. Bold master pirates (Ones who play the puzzle frequently, but just can't quite push it to better levels) may have many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in. They may not be puzzle minded, but this doesn't mean they're not hard workers.

Someone getting "many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in" is significantly above average. If 50% of the scoring curve is able, then really, even distinguished is above average.

Wow, I missed that!

If someone like gothmog. the self-declared king of cobalt, still doesn't know that Master is well above average, that shows how right slimbutt was for using it as an example.

Repost for those who don't know:

According to this post by lizthegray, it appears that the break down is as follows:
Able            0 - 50%
Distinguished 50 - 65%
Respected 65 - 75%
Master 75 - 85%
Renowned 85 - 90%
Grand-Master 90 - 95%
Legendary 95 - 99%
Ultimate 99 - 100%

Note that in the case of ties, you are put in the lower category. So ultimates are at most the top 1% and in the case of bnav where liz posted this info, they were all tied and thus there were no Ultimates.
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[May 7, 2009 9:03:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Antique

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Stop saying need. The question was never whether they were needed. The question was whether their value outweighed their cost. They are obviously, empirically, not needed, by any reasonable definition of the word need. Trying to frame the debate as an argument about whether they were, or are needed is a significant error, and inexcusable as a matter of honest discussion, as it forces one side to defend the obviously indefensible.


I'm not trying to frame the debate as anything. I don't want a debate. In fact, as far as the arguments people keep throwing at me, there is not and has not been a debate because the central point I have made is not subject to debate. I'll throw it out there one more time, then let this derail die.

As I've said, I just threw into this discussion an issue, which, has more to do with the presentation of these conferences than anything else. The idea that a pretend monarch in a play-time environment is in any way my representative in dealing with the company which I pay for a product/service. They are not. They do not represent me. And cannont represent me unless I personally appoint them to do so. And I keep getting the arguement "yes, we do represent you cuz we're monarchs and monarchs (insert justification here)."

Doesn't matter how you justify it. No one represents me to OOO any more so than they represent me to Comcast, or my electric company or the dealership where I bought my car. And that isn't subject to your approval, and it isn't a debate.
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[May 7, 2009 9:13:23 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Nobody was representing you, personally, or any individual pirate, to OOO anyway. Do you have documentation of where it was described or presented that way, or is that just a straw man? The reason it's not a debate is that you made it up.

The judgement was, it would appear, (rightly in my mind) that the group of frequent players with good communication skills most likely to be able to relay and clearly express the concerns and state of mind of the widest range of pirate playstyles was monarchs of large, active flags.
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Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 7, 2009 9:43:27 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Talisker

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Do you have documentation of where it was described or presented that way, or is that just a straw man?


Hypnos, explaining why monarchs wrote: 
As the monarch overseeing a large number of pirates, we would like to hear their perspectives of the game and hopefully see the flavor of each ocean, as well.

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I can't respond because I do not understand what the hell you are talking about. Sorry.

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[May 7, 2009 9:54:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ssandv



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Re: Conference of the Monarch (Thoughts) Reply to this Post
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Somewhat of a side track, but it goes to the "elitist" aspect:


 
 
 
Example; many forum posters seem to think master is an average stat. Forum posters in general are upper level in wealth and talent and rarely consider the best interests of new players.
Master IS an average stat. Bold master pirates (Ones who play the puzzle frequently, but just can't quite push it to better levels) may have many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in. They may not be puzzle minded, but this doesn't mean they're not hard workers.

Someone getting "many goods and excellents with a sprinkle of incredibles mixed in" is significantly above average. If 50% of the scoring curve is able, then really, even distinguished is above average.

Wow, I missed that!

If someone like gothmog. the self-declared king of cobalt, still doesn't know that Master is well above average, that shows how right slimbutt was for using it as an example.

Repost for those who don't know:

According to this post by lizthegray, it appears that the break down is as follows:
Able            0 - 50%
Distinguished 50 - 65%
Respected 65 - 75%
Master 75 - 85%
Renowned 85 - 90%
Grand-Master 90 - 95%
Legendary 95 - 99%
Ultimate 99 - 100%

Note that in the case of ties, you are put in the lower category. So ultimates are at most the top 1% and in the case of bnav where liz posted this info, they were all tied and thus there were no Ultimates.

Holy abuse of statistics, Batman!

Remember that the greenies who show up, bilge (e.g.) badly once, and then disappear are among those ables for the 10 days they're on the curve. So congratulations, you've proven Benjamin Disraeli right.

Oh and someone who's *all* master and below? In what, all 20 puzzles? That's well, well below average. ( this is methodologically bogus, but just as a point of information, 85% ^ 20 is about oh...the 4th percentile. So if puzzling rankings were Gaussian, which I'm not claiming they are, only about 4% of results would be expected to be that bad. It does, however, suggest that it's not terribly common among regular puzzlers if there's any sort of collective that can be produced from the rankings)

So nice try, but you're wrong. Someone who has nothing above a master is, in fact, a seriously below average puzzler, unless the correlation between different rankings is *very* high. In fact, it only takes about 5 degrees of freedom among the rankings to reach the point where the average puzzler should have at least one above master.
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Darksand (back again!)
Obsidian: Peace and Quiet-Chaos
Midnight (rarely): Forbidden Dreams-Dies Irae
Leif wrote: 
I understand you'll ignore this as it doesn't support your paranoia.

[May 7, 2009 9:55:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
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