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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Game Design » Thread: Flotilla Concerns, spawn rate |
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Steveyohoho
Joined: Jul 26, 2007 Posts: 281 Status: Offline |
As an avid flotilla nut at the moment, I feel the need to put some information out there, ask some questions, and make some suggestions to increase the fun of these voyages. 1. Non-sinking flotillas paying out higher. THANK YOU. I know there have been mixed reports on this, but pretty much I'm convinced its there and implemented. Per Flotilla Hunting Yppedia entry, max bounty on an MG sink in a non-sinker was reported to be 23k. I am NOT seeing that. I'm seeing more along the lines of 50-65k which is more like sinking bounties. If confirmed, please keep it like this. This alone makes non-sinkers worth it. I can make GOOD money on them now in a frig (insert tarting about doing it in a brig, yea yea, and yeah, you could still make money in non-sinkers before, just not too much). The only downside I see is that its now not worth the risk to go into a sinker versus a non-sinker, but perhaps a modest (10-15%) bump in sinking bounties would accommodate that. Still, this "fix" has completely revitalized flotilla action at least on my ocean. The poe is right, so to speak. 2. Because of #1 and other reasons I'll list, can we increase the flot spawn rate again? It was lowered in this post announcing "lessened efforts on more established oceans." I assumed this was because of two reasons. Firstly, CI was coming out and we wanted to let people have opportunity to explore it and have fun with it. But the second reason, I assumed, was the tarting from many island owners about the grind of doing flotillas and how unprofitable non-sinkers were. Given the higher payouts, it is now worth it for any navver, elite or not, to go into any flotilla and make some good money. Which in turn gets jobbers excited about doing flotilla versus other voyages (before it was pulling teeth unless it was a sinker). For spawn rates, we've seen 1-2 flotillas per week on Cobalt. I haven't looked at other oceans, but I think, again, a modest increase to 2-4 would provide an opportunity for the high end navvers to make some poe and then some newbies to kill them off or test the waters over the course of the week. I feel slightly bad at this point because I sank my ocean's only weekly spawned flotilla in one night last night. Last week, our ocean sunk two sinkers in one night as well. BUT, at this point, I have jobbers banging down my door, chomping at the bit for next week's flotillas already. Seems to me its a hunger for more and more, so lets give it to them. 3. CI is good for flotillas. Again, just my experiences on cobalt, but we are an ocean limited in population. Before CI, experienced crews would regularly be planning trips to atlantis. It was not uncommon to see 2-3 frig trips out which made it difficult to load a frig for flotilla (unless it was sinking). NOW, with CI out, those same experienced crews are not sucking up 70+ jobbers for atlantis all the time and are instead getting 5-6 hearties onboard for a rocking night of CI. That's 60 some jobbers free for other voyages. Loading a flotilla has become a lot easier these days which is further support for #2. If there are more available for flotilla, then why not provide the opportunity for them to do it? 4. Along with #2, I believe in flotillas as a training ground for navvers wanting to blockade nav. As a beginning navver, you progress up through the ranks of pillaging, going from normal sloop pillages, to brig pillages, to elite sloop pillages, to elite brig pilllages and so on. At some point, you get bored or want an additional challenge. CI is now another option, but that doesn't take a lot of navver skill in most cases. But if a sea battler wants to get into the blockade game, they need some practice with multi-ship combat. Flotillas are a good breeding ground for that. The other alternatives are atlantis and event blockades. Atlantis is very risky for a sea battler to test their mettle on first. Event blockades are nice as well, but generally you aren't seeing an event blockade with many ships larger than a sloop, so while a sea battler will get valuable and necessary experience navving and influencing flag buoys, they don't get a sense of making and taking damage with multiple big ships around and going for sinks instead of "maxing them". Given all of this, increasing spawn rate will allow an opportunity for other navvers to get into a flotilla and mix it up and try it out. Maybe they'll fall in love with it as I have, maybe not. But at least they'll get a shot and with decent payouts now, they'll be rewarded for doing well. 5. BK blockades. The point of these things originally was to mix up the ocean a little bit, get some islands blockaded, get some action going. Yeah, I know this will be the point of MOST contention, but an increase in flotilla spawn means an increase in the chance one of these flotillas lasts. It was not working too well before the decrease in spawn rate. On Cobalt, I believe we had 1 BK blockade in all of 2008 that was the result of a flotilla being left alive (there were others that happened because of scuttling, the colonizing of a new isle, and cleanup from 2007 of BKs left on isles). At least if the spawn rate of flots was 2-4 per week, a week where 4 flots spawn and one just barely survives to drop a blockade might happen. Anyways, these are my thoughts, discuss, flame, etc. In summary, I'm asking to keep the better bounties and increase the spawn rate. Side note of if we keep better bounties, to increase bounties slighty for sinkers. ---------------------------------------- Steveyohoho Captain of the crew Flirts and Damsels Prince of the flag Wench Cobalt Ocean Need help for your ocean on flotillas? Ask me. |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 14307 Status: Offline |
Re your #2, it's not a question of payouts, it's a question of feeling like you have piratey 'chores' that remove your ability to do other things you'd like to do in the game, and makes you feel like not logging on at all. So no, please don't re-increase the spawn rate unless you extend the drop time by an added week (so the tillas can't drop until the second week they've been out). No more tedium please. I might even find pleasure in doing them again if it's not forced down my throat every Wednesday evening. I suppose an alternative would be to have them stay up after defeated with only red ship spawns, and a blacked-out icon on the map.... though that might have a detrimental effect on the more out-of-the-way flotillas and islands (though the added pay of sinking greens might make up for it). ---------------------------------------- Sweetiepiepi, nav of Tyr's Own and Warrior Kitten Vargas the Mad says, "Don't fight it. These feelings you're feeling, they are natural." Sublime is shame. |
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false_dmitri
Joined: Feb 18, 2007 Posts: 1470 Status: Offline |
Since the main function of flotillas has always been to threaten an island with a fixed-strength BK blockade, sinking flotillas would still see plenty of action even if nonsinking ones paid exactly the same. The challenge has always been raising enough jobber support to kill off the more remote nonsinkers. So whether or not nonsinker pay passes whatever threshold is keeping people from jobbing over, sinker pay will continue to do its job at current levels. ---------------------------------------- Smarfle says, "i consider him the blunt club, while you're the crude instrument ;P" Captainflood laughs Captainflood says, "I should make that my forum sig" |
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nargon_forum
Joined: Aug 9, 2007 Posts: 289 Status: Offline |
I agree with sweetnessc, flotillas are a grind for island holding flags. I also oppose any increase to the spawn rate without a corresponding increase to the drop time grace period. I also disagree with your #1. I still see flots of between 2-4 every week, with at least one flot near an island that directly affects my flag every week for the past 3 weeks. Flots are also not completely cleared until almost Thursday. I am not familiar with how easily charts are acquired on Cobalt but on Hunter, there are many places where charts are unavailable from shipyards, including an entire uninhabited arch where flots seem to spawn on a regular basis. I disagree with your #3. Atlantis is as popular as ever (at least on Hunter) and flots still have difficulty being loaded, especially if an atlantis run is progressing or someone decides to start an Atlantis run in the middle of someone jobbing for a flot. I do agree that an bigger increase in the sinking bounties would be great since non sinking and sinking flots pay quite similar now. ---------------------------------------- Nargon on Hunter Captain of -Frozen- Awesome Card by Schwa ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by nargon_forum at Jan 9, 2009 7:40:38 PM] |
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Nooblar
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 2962 Status: Offline |
I'd like to see a system where a specific flotilla will spawn, and just 100%, for sure, stay out for a week. Once a week is over (thursday at noon) it will vanish, without a blockade, and a new flotilla will show elsewhere, maybe alternating sinking, and non-sinking. If this was tacked on, on top of the already really low rate of flotilla spawns, the 'ocean concious' people would only have one, maybe two flotillas to pound out thursday afternoon/night. The the flotilla navvers who might not have the draw of the big flags, but want some PoE to be able to get blockades going, can hit the special designated flotilla between friday and wednesday, all they want, and stay in as long as they want. ---------------------------------------- Nooblar typically on Sage Monarch of Illium Eternae
Tilinkatar! |
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mattmartin72
Joined: Jan 30, 2004 Posts: 588 Status: Offline |
Drama+++ I have yet to see you run flotilla attacks on consecutive weeks. The vast majority of flotillas are cleared before the weekend is even over by those of us who do like flotillas. No matter where they spawn. We know you feel they are a grind, but you doesnt equal everyone, there are a lot of people who do love flotillas. I agree there have been spawn issues on oceans not as colonised (too far from places to buy stock etc), and that should be adressed, but at the moment, its gone too far the other way. ---------------------------------------- Napalm Captain of Die Fish Die Encaustic art Av by Skullcracker, click for more of Skullys work |
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wrs1864b
Joined: Apr 10, 2006 Posts: 2825 Status: Offline |
I also agree with sweetie. The "don't drop on an island for two weeks instead of one" suggestion has been around for ages and would really help both island owners and people who like to attack flotillas. I wouldn't think it would be that hard to implement. As far as spawns go, instead of randomly placing flotillas around the ocean, I would rather see something like this. Count up the number of player owned islands, pick somewhere between one out of five and one out of ten of them to get flotillas and place a flotilla within 5 leagues of that island. Of course, the number of player colonized islands should be scaled to the ocean population somehow, but thats a different problem. ---------------------------------------- Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent. |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 14307 Status: Offline |
Your santy claws powers must not be working very well, because I ran them week after week for several months.
They are now. And they were before, but on some oceans, a goodly chunk of the clearing was by people who didn't want to be spending their playtime doing it. And a very large proportion of them were put down by you. It strikes me as poor game design that one man's vacation could have such a large impact on the rest of the ocean. Had you seen the tilla effects while you were away, you may have a better understanding of the concerns of those who are finding it's simply too much.
But of course. However, I'm certainly not the only one who found they converted into a grind, and it was a pretty extended, insiduous grind. I actually agree with you that it's gone too far the other way, but any uptick needs to be done in a way that's balanced. Extending the minimum drop time lets people plan their lives and put together a time when people can go out. Factoring the spawn rate, or the number of ships needed to kill it, to ocean population and to local archipelago population would also work nicely. The problem, in my eyes, is that the coding needed to create a proper balance between oceans with populations of 300 people with four open islands and oceans with 1400 people online with numerous open islands just wasn't put into place. ---------------------------------------- Sweetiepiepi, nav of Tyr's Own and Warrior Kitten Vargas the Mad says, "Don't fight it. These feelings you're feeling, they are natural." Sublime is shame. |
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Grinfish
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 7938 Status: Offline |
I recall one such occasion. So many people were happy to have a chance to attack flotillas without one dominating jobber magnet that the notice board was full of people grasping the opportunity. ---------------------------------------- Whitewyvern. Distinctly Limey. Retired, No regrets. Now with occasional logging-in for purely social purposes.
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BobJanova
Joined: Oct 16, 2007 Posts: 2512 Status: Offline |
Flotillas should be somewhere near the island they are going to attack ... say within 10 leagues. That would keep a lot of the logistical grind out of the way. The idea of a guaranteed week-long flotilla (even after you defeat it) sounds good at first, but I think it would be too much of a fountain for someone who had solved the flotilla AI ... infinite cash, basically. ---------------------------------------- Bobjanova on Viridian (mostly) Viridian: IM stalls on Napi (22/26/35) & Jubilee. Premades Dudu Duds on Fintan! CI exclusives and cheap clothes, 22/25/28! IM on Malachite |
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Nooblar
Joined: Sep 17, 2005 Posts: 2962 Status: Offline |
How is that different from someone who has solved the atlantis AI? People can find one of the 'trik square' maps, and pull down a mil in raw PoE, not counting the extra from chests, or the value of items the naver/owner will get. Perhaps set it up so that rather then withdraw, the last flotilla up at any given point gets replaced. That way you will need to port, and set up a new ship (or get really lucky with the spawn location), and will still get the chance to Thaul free of harassment. Edit; Come to think of it, people have 'solved' the pillage AI, its not terribly uncommon for a well known pirate to overstuff a grand frig with lazers, and make 300-500k, per battle. Meaning a profit of about 100k per battle, for the people leading the voyage. flotilla navvers are the only ones who have a weekly cap put on their earnings, and they are all forced into sharing the generation into that cap. If someone else gets out there and makes their money, that translates to money i can no longer make. ---------------------------------------- Nooblar typically on Sage Monarch of Illium Eternae
Tilinkatar! ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by Nooblar at Jan 11, 2009 6:37:43 AM] |
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marundel
Joined: Jan 7, 2007 Posts: 1726 Status: Offline |
I am one of those navvers who dearly loves flotillas - similar to the OP in that regard. My suggestions: 1. Flotillas spawn on Thursday - meaning if they aren't cleared up the first two nights, the weekend is generally shot. While I do enjoy playing occasional weekends, I also like to go out and enjoy life with the wife and kids. Several people have mentioned extending the drop window if the spawn is increased. Suppose instead of flots appearing on Thursdays, they appeared on Sundays. They could still drop the following Thursday, but the window of opportunity to kill them off is extended by 5 days. This also allows for the opportunity to kill a majority of them prior to the first weekend. 2. I too appreciate the increase in payouts for the non-sinkers. I actually come out of them with a little left over after restock instead of taking a loss pretty much every trip. Face it - we're not all dynamos when it comes to killing flots and some of us really do burn through 500-600 large CBs while only killing off 5 or 6 green ships (and a handful of reds.) Thank you for that change. I don't think an increase in bounties for sinkers is warranted, however, as they seem to average about 20%-25% more than non-sinkers from what I've observed - a healthy enough increase to account for the risk to the ship. TH amounts seem to be higher too... although I am comparing two different bnavvers in my observation, so that might just be the number of sinks hauled. 3. Location location location - I echo the recommendations to keep flots within a shorter distance of their intended target. Island density in 2 out of 3 arches on my ocean (Cobalt) is such that the actual target would still be in question in most cases. I would add a second suggestion - have the flots move one LP per day towards their intended target. The longer they are around, the more obvious the target would be. 4. This may already be the case, but I'll mention it anyway - if a flot survives to drop on an island, tailor the drop strength to account for the number of kills that flot sustained prior to dropping. A flot that is within one or two sinks of withdrawing should not be able to attack an island at full strength. It might even stimulate more BK blockades as the driving need to eliminate the flot would not be as intense. ---------------------------------------- Pizzahutpete on the Cobalt Ocean Monarch, Super Awesomeness SO, Boochin' Drunks Hblovejoy on Midnight |
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BobJanova
Joined: Oct 16, 2007 Posts: 2512 Status: Offline |
No, but the answer to that isn't to provide a different arena to exploit it in. At least in Atlantis you have goons and turtles to keep you honest. ---------------------------------------- Bobjanova on Viridian (mostly) Viridian: IM stalls on Napi (22/26/35) & Jubilee. Premades Dudu Duds on Fintan! CI exclusives and cheap clothes, 22/25/28! IM on Malachite |
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sweetnessc
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 14307 Status: Offline |
Pete, those are all pretty reasonable suggestions as far as balance goes. ---------------------------------------- Sweetiepiepi, nav of Tyr's Own and Warrior Kitten Vargas the Mad says, "Don't fight it. These feelings you're feeling, they are natural." Sublime is shame. |
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mattmartin72
Joined: Jan 30, 2004 Posts: 588 Status: Offline |
number 4 really isnt needed now, BK blockades have been nerfed enough already since the early days. Even Barny is a pale ghost of his former self. ---------------------------------------- Napalm Captain of Die Fish Die Encaustic art Av by Skullcracker, click for more of Skullys work |
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Fiddler
Joined: Mar 4, 2004 Posts: 4239 Status: Offline |
 http://www.instantrimshot.com/ ---------------------------------------- Orsino, Viridian ocean Forum-mute: your best friend
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Technician
Joined: Jul 10, 2005 Posts: 1870 Status: Offline |
I totally agree with Sweetie that flotillas to some are not a question of a welcome addition to the game but more of a "Chor-tilla" that often gets a responce along the lines of "oh not another one to deal with" come 12 noon GT on Thursday when they get updated. As for questions of flotilla AI - easiest AI to understand in the game is flotilla AI. Only issue with this though is that the knowledgable bnavers success often depends on the quality of his/her sailors. ---------------------------------------- Rover of Viridian |
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Strider399
Joined: Feb 9, 2006 Posts: 1397 Status: Offline |
I find when you have sailors that are TOO good, it can lead to problems as well. It's harder to figure out what the AI will do when it knows you have 2 of every token, as opposed to only have a Straight and a Left.... Atleast, in my expierence. Does anybody know if sinking flotilla's have been given a pay-bump also? It doesn't seem too fair that a non-sinking run is making nearly as much as a sinking run, with zero risk to the bnaver losing the ship. ---------------------------------------- ~Striderrs~ Senior Officer of Iron Butterfly on Hunter ocean. Prince of the flag "Bad Company" |
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Steveyohoho
Joined: Jul 26, 2007 Posts: 281 Status: Offline |
That was my point regarding sinking bounties. With them being close to even, it doesn't make sense to risk your ship for about the same amount of poe. My experiences so far in the last month have indicated that sinking bounties are still " a little" higher. Like I can almost guarantee that the 2nd MG sink will be 72k. Versus only seeing 66k max MG bounty in non-sink. Back to my OP, I guess some of my point was lost in massive verbiage. Basically, what I'm saying is that part of the "chore" or "grind" was that island owners were the ones that HAD to do the flotillas BECAUSE no one else was interested. Why was no one else interested? Either they didn't find it fun or the poe wasn't right or something else. Fun aside, I think the "poe is right" now and more will be interested in doing it, thus alleviating the "chore" from being exclusively up to the island owners. Its a theory, sure, but I think more will want to dip their oars into those waters if given the chance. I'm asking for more opportunity for them to do it. But, I also totally agree with some of the points pete made about location. An experienced flot navver has his/her connections for charting to remote isles, but its still a pain. As well, if need be, increasing the amount of time before they drop a blockade would be acceptable as well. ---------------------------------------- Steveyohoho Captain of the crew Flirts and Damsels Prince of the flag Wench Cobalt Ocean Need help for your ocean on flotillas? Ask me. |
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Technician
Joined: Jul 10, 2005 Posts: 1870 Status: Offline |
If you dont want 2 of every token then turn it of auto?.... ---------------------------------------- Rover of Viridian |
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Barney25
Joined: Nov 5, 2007 Posts: 747 Status: Offline |
I resent that. ---------------------------------------- Barney SO of "Earthbound" of "EAC" (Hunter) <><
Avatar by Texasborn <3 |
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false_dmitri
Joined: Feb 18, 2007 Posts: 1470 Status: Offline |
Unless you have an island at stake. As long as the jobbers are there, sinking flotillas will still be tackled. ---------------------------------------- Smarfle says, "i consider him the blunt club, while you're the crude instrument ;P" Captainflood laughs Captainflood says, "I should make that my forum sig" |
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dchow
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 986 Status: Offline |
I quite like flotillas now. It's the last bit of the game for me I guess. Any who, back to what I wanted to say... The pay at non-sinkers has been increased to nearly that of sinkers, with practically zero risk. If you did a non-sinker before and now you'll have noticed that pay rates nearly doubled, while sinker rates are the exact same. I don't think its true that if you double one you need to double the other; however I do feel as if the pay rate at sinkers should be increased slightly to reflect the added risk. My flag is new to the island holding game and already have had several flotillas show up around the two islands we now own; each time we've taken multiple flotilla runs out to drive them off -- its fun and its something we can do as a flag. -shrug- ---------------------------------------- Dchow Old Boys Club |
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polaris395
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1068 Status: Offline |
I know that on Viridian, it is close to impossible to job a non sinker. They need more PoE so that more Then again sinking has more of a risk so it should get lots of PoE. Where does one draw the line? ---------------------------------------- -Polariss
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joeymck
Joined: Jul 14, 2006 Posts: 317 Status: Offline |
I actually find it easier to read the ai when i have 2 of every move rather then manipulating my move tokens.
I have not run a non sinker in a long while due to the lack of jobber support but how much has the pay been boosted exactly? Doubling non sinking pay is just a cheap fix to a problem and no real solution is brought about to the problem. In response to the op, I do not understand your point that ci has helped flotillas. It may only be sage but the same crews that loaded for an atlantis trip still will load, the only difference is more variety for the average pirate to choose from. I do not see how this will increase the popularity of a flotilla.
I dont really agree with this statement. While it is good to experiance the multi ship enviroment, the easily abusable ai does not really teach you anything in regards to a pvp and the skills that are needed to nav in a blockade. There are no flags in a flotilla, the ai is abusable and at points presents no challenges to read and at many times does plain stupid moves.
In the past i had thought about this same idea and realized that i am in the minority in regards to flotillas. While i may love to run them and wish that they lasted longer then the 20 sinks, i realize a good portion of flags consider this a chore when i consider it fun. To drive off the flotillas for an island holding flag is a chore and a hastle at the present moment. One can make the argument that atlantis is available 24/7, A triketos square is a poe fountain and other such arguments relating to a flotilla, you must realize that there are no blockades that may hit an island if one week all flotilla killers are lazy. ---------------------------------------- Joeymck of sage Retired |
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Technician
Joined: Jul 10, 2005 Posts: 1870 Status: Offline |
Nothing is impossible. I loaded a non sinker frig with 70 odd bodies only last week, and that was at off peak time when there was only around 450 online on Viridian.
You bother reading this post?.... ---------------------------------------- Rover of Viridian |
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dchow
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 986 Status: Offline |
I think its been scaled to the difficulty of the actual Brigand King -- MGs are usually around 60K now I guess, and MBs are maybe 35ish? ---------------------------------------- Dchow Old Boys Club |
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joeymck
Joined: Jul 14, 2006 Posts: 317 Status: Offline |
I will test this as soon as i can, due to 2 spawns that are in the worst possible area, i am unable to load a ship. (You may think its bad for those far off flotillas but i love them, i can not stand when they spawn off admiral on sage) ---------------------------------------- Joeymck of sage Retired |
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nargon_forum
Joined: Aug 9, 2007 Posts: 289 Status: Offline |
From what I have seen, a non-sinker MG is about 60k and a sinker MG is about 66k. A non-sinker MB is about 35k, a sinker MB is about 40k. There isn't much difference between a sinker and a non-sinker now, in poe terms. Only thing is that you can make a nice profit from non-sinkers at zero risk and nobody but island-holding flags actually go for sinkers. ---------------------------------------- Nargon on Hunter Captain of -Frozen- Awesome Card by Schwa |
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Strider399
Joined: Feb 9, 2006 Posts: 1397 Status: Offline |
The bounty paid per ship, is different based on the brigand king. Barnabas pays the most, at around 72k for MG's... and I forgot how much for MB's. The Widow Queen is right behind him at (I believe) around 68k per MG sunk. I haven't run a flotilla in a while, so my numbers could be wrong... but those are what i recall getting from those two brigand kings. ---------------------------------------- ~Striderrs~ Senior Officer of Iron Butterfly on Hunter ocean. Prince of the flag "Bad Company" |
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