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Jota



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
Posts: 105
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Renting Familiars

The devs need a money-sink to funnel pieces of eight out of the economy. Something that involves either lots of people paying small amounts of money or just some people paying large amounts of money, either way without a permanent benefit so that they need to keep doing it over and over again. However, most players seem pretty unhappy with the idea of items wearing out (and if they wear out slowly enough that it's not a huge inconvenience, they probably won't be sapping money out fast enough to really help inflation).

However, everybody wants a familiar. Who wouldn't want a familiar? Of course, having a little friend permanently attached to your shoulder is a privilege earned be means of great achievements, and it'd be wrong for it to be possible for just anyone to buy one. However, renting them might be a different matter.

You head down to your local breeder, which is set up mostly like a regular shop, and peer through the glass at all the cute little creatures waiting for a good home. If you see one that you especially like (no special orders, of course -- if the tournament winners had to pick from what's available, so should everyone), you can pay the shopkeeper twenty thousand pieces of eight (or however much) for the right to keep it for a week. Whenever you want, you can drop by the breeder again to pay another twenty thousand to add another week to that -- two weeks for forty thousand, three weeks for sixty thousand, etc. -- to make sure that your best friend doesn't wind up going to someone else. When the time runs out, your familiar automatically flutters back to the breeder's cage, ready to be chosen by the next lonely pirate to happen by.

The owner of the shop would have to pay an initial outlay for each familiar they wanted to add to their menagerie, of course -- a cost in iron (for cages), cane (for food), labor (for care), money (just because), and possibly another rare commodity that hasn't appeared yet (or just doesn't have a use yet). But unlike most shopowners, they'd also need to regularly spend a certain amount of money for each familiar they have each week, whether that familiar is in the shop or in the possession of a player (of course, the cost for maintaining familiars that are already rented out should be funneled directly out of the player's rental fee, to make sure the shopkeeper can't go embezzling it and losing their familiar on them, whether intentionally or accidentally); this fee plus the shop's markup would be what customers pay to rent. The markup would have to be high, to cover both the initial breeding costs as well as what the shopkeeper has to pay in order to keep ready stock available. Additionally, it might make sense for shopkeepers to have to spend labor for each familiar that they keep in the store, to handle cleaning the cages and refilling the water dish.

A shopkeeper could dismiss a familiar from stock at any time, if they didn't want to pay to maintain it, although they'd be forfeiting the initial costs they paid to breed it. If a shopkeeper ran out of money and labor to keep all the animals they had on hand, they would run away one at a time until the overhead was again within what the shop could afford. This would never be a problem for creatures in the possession of a player, since those don't require labor (the player can be assumed to clean up after his or her own pet), and their time has been paid for in advance.

If twenty-thousand pieces of eight isn't enough, that number could be raised to something suitable prohibitive, to ensure that they remained a suitably rare status symbol. The key would be to keep as much money as theoretically possibly continuously falling into the black hole of "maintenance fees" that are needed to keep a familiar from running away.
[Aug 14, 2003 4:49:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
Turk



Joined: Jul 20, 2003
Posts: 133
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Re: Renting Familiars

no, no, a million times no.

We don't live in Soviet Russia folks. Just because your neighbor has something cool you don't doesn't mean you have to whine and moan about how unfair life is and how everything should be depreciated and waah waah waah
[Aug 14, 2003 8:44:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shockedfrog

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Re: Renting Familiars

agreed. familiars should be purely a reward for tournaments, even if the advantage they give players is a little too much. That said, I'm all for a sysytem that lets players rent out items to other players that are automatically given back after a while (obviously not letting people sell the item), but the coding for that would probably be outrageous and the addition server data for every item someone lets someone else borrow would be huge.
[Aug 14, 2003 8:48:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jota



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

Turk wrote: 
We don't live in Soviet Russia folks. Just because your neighbor has something cool you don't doesn't mean you have to whine and moan about how unfair life is and how everything should be depreciated and waah waah waah


I find your response very insulting, not to mention rather rude and condescending. I don't consider it all unfair that only certain people have familiars, and I would be seriously bothered if just anyone (i.e. myself) could simply buy one and have the same permanent prestige as the people who deservedly won them. I don't see any whining or moaning in my post; if you do, then you've misread me. I was just looking for something that people couldn't already buy, but that they'd be willing to pay to rent, in order to drain money out of the economy. Familiars seemed like the thing they'd be willing to pay the most money for even a temporary shot at.
[Aug 14, 2003 9:26:04 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
stevoid



Joined: Apr 8, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

shockedfrog wrote: 
agreed. familiars should be purely a reward for tournaments, even if the advantage they give players is a little too much.


I'm not sure what you mean by advantage here...they're just decoration - and I've found myself removing mine several times as I have to answer the whole "you win them in tournaments"/"check the forums for the next tournament"/"the forums are at www.puzzlepirates.com; then click on Forums" series of questions several times a day! The only advantage is that they are rare, so not everyone has them.
[Aug 14, 2003 2:13:42 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Teirlap

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Re: Renting Familiars

I dislike the idea as well, but not only will I refrain from being a jerk about it, but I'll share with you a nice metaphor to help explain my feelings...

A private jet and an Olympic gold medal are both status symbols. However, while the private jet could theoretically be saved up for over a lifetime and purchased by an average Joe corporate wage slave earning next to nothing, the Olympic gold medal could only be earned through outstanding performance in a particular field (in this case, running, or perhaps luge).

Black clothing is the best example of a Y!PP 'private jet'. Certain types of Swords and, eventually, housing also fit into this area.
Familiars, however, are and should remain 'Olympic gold medals'.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from here. Perhaps it should be noted that I don't own a Familiar, partially due to a lack of puzzling prowess, and partially due to a power outage. Ha!
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Frederico del Mar, President of the Emerald Company
'Merchants and accountants by profession, the Company's men lived by the ledger and ruled with the quill.'
~ John Keay, The Honourable Company
[Aug 14, 2003 2:41:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jota



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

Teirlap wrote: 
I dislike the idea as well, but not only will I refrain from being a jerk about it, but I'll share with you a nice metaphor to help explain my feelings...


Thank you. I appreciate it.

So even though rented familiars are out of the question, is there something else that might be analogous to them that could fit the role as an extremely expensive, not currently buyable, readily visible status symbol that people might be willing to pay gobs of gold into the vast nothingness outside the economy in order to rent?

There are houses, of course, but I got the impression that it would be possible to actually own them (making them only one-time money sinks for anyone willing to make the investment, rather than continuous money sinks), and even if they were rented, I suspect the rent would still end up going to either landowners or island governments. Plus, houses aren't readily visible prestige pieces, since they're not wearable.

Clothing is already buyable, and most people with money to burn probably already have all the outfits they need. Medals wouldn't really make sense to rent. Would I be attacked if I suggested alternate obviously-not-familiars things that happened to sit on one's shoulder? Or maybe some kind of props that could be slung from one's belt: a golden scabbard, a silver rum stein, a jade hammer, a ship in a bottle... but I don't know if people would be willing to pay the same kind of money to own sometihng like that temporarily, unless they otherwise had prestige inherently embedded in them. Maybe if they could only be acquired by people who were at least Legendary (or even Ultimate) in the associated skill.

Maybe the whole idea of renting out status symbols is a bad one. I dunno. I just thought maybe players would be more amenable to paying and working to maintain new, special, items that they don't already have access to at all than they are to paying and working to maintain items they already own and take for granted (i.e. clothing and weapons, if they were made to decay).
[Aug 14, 2003 3:22:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
Redhand



Joined: Jul 28, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

I like the concept of a status symbol that sucks lots of money out of the player. I'm for anything that takes money permenantly out of the economy.

I can't really comment on if the familiars are the items to do this with. I would like a familiar since I think they are neat, but I would never pay for one and I can't see myself bothering with a contest for one let alone winning one. I'm just not that competitive.

If familiars ARE souly reserved for contests (which is fine, eh, I'm easy to please) what would be a high status item that the player would have to continually shell out money for, wouldn't give them an advantage in game, yet players would want to have?

One answer has already been given by the Devs, that being houses. What else is there?

In the 14-early 1800's slaves were a big status symbol. I think we can safely count them out of this game.

Horses are a possibility, and a huge status suck. They would take up land for a pen, and you'd need to pay regularly for upkeep. You could ride em sure, but islands are so small, and you can warp to any building on one anyway...


I'm tapped for ideas.
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Redhand "Sonar" Ward
Me father was a pirate, me mum was a bat, and don't get me started on all that...

WWIIOnline (Windhund) <-> Puzzle Pirates (ARR!)
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Gotagota

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Re: Renting Familiars

Redhand wrote: 
In the 14-early 1800's slaves were a big status symbol. I think we can safely count them out of this game.


Nope. You just have to know where to look. <grin>
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Fronsac, human.
Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to
add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

[Aug 14, 2003 10:49:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
shockedfrog

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Re: Renting Familiars

By the time people reach the stage of having lots of money, they probably get fed up with newbie questions. there should be a big sign protest style,where every time someone asks a newbie question you can hold it up, this sign saying 'READ THE FRIENDLY MANUAL!'
[Aug 15, 2003 1:05:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Renting Familiars

There's two different types of newbie questions: the ones where they try to find the answer first, and the ones where they feel they shouldn't have to *read* something (o mg!!1!!! stfu lmao!) to play a free beta test.

I don't want signs for the former. I want signs with rusty, bloody spikes for the latter.
[Aug 15, 2003 1:23:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
shockedfrog

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Re: Renting Familiars

yeah, some questions dont get answered in the help, but for those people that dont bother to read it then
 
signs with rusty, bloody spikes
would be great :)
[Aug 15, 2003 1:37:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jota



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

Redhand wrote: 
In the 14-early 1800's slaves were a big status symbol. I think we can safely count them out of this game.


Hmm. Now I'm being reminded of the Adopt-An-NPP suggestion. What if that were implemented, but you had to pay some inordinate amount of salary in advance every week in order to keep them? To make it even more fun, you could have your swabbie follow you around on land wherever you go, and maybe even carry a few (not many, so as not to reduce the usefulness of hosues -- perhaps just one of each item type) items of excess inventory for you. Perhaps you could even get them to wear the clothes you give them, so you can have your servants (not slaves, of course, since slaves don't get a weekly salary) dressed in the finest matching livery.

It might be a bit tricky to handle what to do with them when you board a ship that doesn't need any swabbies. On the one hand, they might just vanish temporarily, rejoining you at your destination -- but then you won't have access to anything they're carrying, and you won't be able to RP with them or use them for sparring practice while waiting around to set sail. So it might be better for them just to go inactive, standing around on deck, not listed in the vessel's complement.

Some folks might also want to associate their servants with a particular location that they own. A ship's owner could connect a swabbie to the ship (so that it's inactive there most of the time, but goes active automatically when the number of players on board drops too low, without needing you to turn on the Hiring Jobbers button), a shop owner could plant a friendly mannequin in their store, and an island government could fill the local palace (which are currently big, vacant buildings with a semi-abandoned feel to them) with bustling, well-dressed functionaries.

Is this something that people would pay large numbers of pieces of eight for? You'd probably want to limit how many NPPs you can assign to one location -- say, only one following you at a time, only two associated with a particular ship, only three connected to any particular room in a palace or shop, etc. But if people want to pay weekly what it'd cost to put three NPPs in every room in a palace, that just seems all the better.
[Aug 15, 2003 2:48:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Renting Familiars

Following around = bad. The leading cause of lag is drawing new people on the screen, so making every person into two people is not thrilling.

Now, having them as talking signs in the shoppe ("We have 20 units of black in today! Order that jacket now!"), or as servants in the home when you're not there is quite attractive, better still if you can trade them ONE outfit that they will wear no matter what. I don't know that they need to be outrageously expensive, since once wear is implemented, you'll be clothing two people instead of one, which will get pricey. It would be nice to have somebody in my shoppe telling people some basic info ("Don't buy cloth if you are trying to buy clothes, unless you have a tailor's permission!"), or having a servant in my home saying a few semi-witty things ("Savoir faire is everywhere!").
[Aug 15, 2003 2:56:52 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Jota



Joined: Jul 27, 2003
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Re: Renting Familiars

homullus wrote: 
I don't know that they need to be outrageously expensive, since once wear is implemented, you'll be clothing two people instead of one, which will get pricey.


I had been hoping this idea might be able to be an alternative to wear, but I guess anything that at least reduces the need for wear is a good thing. Also, it occurs to me that letting servants be given one outfit would also allow color-coordinated crew to dres up their favorite swabbie to match.

homullus wrote: 
It would be nice to have somebody in my shoppe telling people some basic info ("Don't buy cloth if you are trying to buy clothes, unless you have a tailor's permission!"), or having a servant in my home saying a few semi-witty things ("Savoir faire is everywhere!").


Now that sounds very useful, for both shopowners and customers. I wonder if it'd be better to have them act autonomously (speaking out every N minutes automatically, or whenever someone entered their location) or only when clicked on? The former might be annoying for regular visitors (unless N were high enough), but the latter might go unnoticed by newbies. Hmm. Maybe they could just speak up each time they see a pirate they haven't said their current spiel to yet, with the option to click on them to hear it again.
[Aug 15, 2003 4:14:11 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/grunk/2002/04/24/ [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Re: Renting Familiars

Regular visitors could mute the NPP once they'd heard it all a million times.
[Aug 15, 2003 4:54:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Vixen



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Re: Renting Familiars

Teirlap wrote: 

A private jet and an Olympic gold medal are both status symbols. However, while the private jet could theoretically be saved up for over a lifetime and purchased by an average Joe corporate wage slave earning next to nothing, the Olympic gold medal could only be earned through outstanding performance in a particular field (in this case, running, or perhaps luge).

Black clothing is the best example of a Y!PP 'private jet'. Certain types of Swords and, eventually, housing also fit into this area.
Familiars, however, are and should remain 'Olympic gold medals'.



I just wondering if you class me in that "average Joe" catogory Fred? :)

Vixen
----------------------------------------
Vixen - Captain of The Black Widows.
[Aug 15, 2003 5:09:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
54x

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Re: Renting Familiars

 
I want signs with rusty, bloody spikes for the latter


Ye could rent out the rusty spiky signs instead.
----------------------------------------
Diamondblade, Cartographer, Crimson Tide.
from Midnight.
Dear sir or madam can you read my book, it took me years to write, will you take a look?
[Aug 16, 2003 8:58:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
MalkierKing

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Re: Renting Familiars

54x wrote: 
 
I want signs with rusty, bloody spikes for the latter


Ye could rent out the rusty spiky signs instead.


Aye I realize that this is an impecabbly old thread but I just couldn't resist peeing my pants at that one ^_^
----------------------------------------
Avatar shamelessly stolen from xkcd.
[Apr 29, 2005 6:04:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Piplicus_BNO

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Re: Renting Familiars

Ouch, what a bump.

I knew something was afoot when I saw a Teirlap post.
----------------------------------------
 
What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
[Apr 29, 2005 6:13:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    Intermission #3 - click here! [Link]  Go to top 
Parthanos

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Re: Renting Familiars

Turk wrote: 
no, no, a million times no.

We don't live in Soviet Russia folks. Just because your neighbor has something cool you don't doesn't mean you have to whine and moan about how unfair life is and how everything should be depreciated and waah waah waah


Seriously, the avatar alone demands ye return.
----------------------------------------
Long retired, mostly expired

Angelmarie tells you, "*nods* I know. :) La Giustazia Inpronouncable.... ;)"
[Apr 29, 2005 6:19:33 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    AlaskanParamedic@yahoo.com [Link]  Go to top 
KoshMom

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Re: Renting Familiars

There is the occasional familiar for sale in the forums here. Keep an eye open, and buy it if you want one.

--since I have no real pressing need for one, I have no idea what they are going for.
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Avasta, Past Governor of Namath, captain of Ye Hardy Mates, of the flag RIOT
[Apr 29, 2005 7:21:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dorien

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Re: Renting Familiars

I think in the last two years they've either figured that out or moved on ;)
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Lord of Tyr's Own, Ambassador and SO of the Fifth Fist

I've never met a keg o' Rum I didn't like!
[Apr 29, 2005 7:43:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Astridfin

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Re: Renting Familiars

Maybe buy a few familars and then you can rent them out. See how many people will rent em. this way the problem is solved :)
----------------------------------------
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20 k Poe to act it out with you.
[Apr 29, 2005 7:59:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MalkierKing

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Re: Renting Familiars

I'm not tarting about the problem...simply enjoying the jokes of people who sit for a half hour in front of their post trying to make them up ^_^
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Avatar shamelessly stolen from xkcd.
[Apr 29, 2005 2:59:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Piplicus_BNO

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Re: Renting Familiars

I would rent mine out, but seeing as there is no way to retrieve it if someone decides to run off/delete it, it's staying firmly on my shoulder.
----------------------------------------
 
What Pip tried to do was something totally unprecedent. He, in some strange way, used Midnight as a test server, without him even knowing. [Crap, it sucks I was not online when he did that :'(... pfft, anyways]


Like a bad penny.
[Apr 29, 2005 8:23:57 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.puzzlepirates.com    Intermission #3 - click here! [Link]  Go to top 
tristin13



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Re:

i think were divirting here we are talking about buying familiars
[Aug 22, 2005 10:13:34 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Re: Re:

Nay. The topic is renting, not buying, familiars.

Faulkston,
bumped again
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[Aug 22, 2005 10:55:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
zangooseguy

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Re: Renting Familiars

Anyways, I thought of this a LONG time ago (about a year ago in March when I began playing puzzle pirates). In the spot where furnishers and Houses would one day be on the map, I believed this:
Quoted from myself in real life a while back....
"I'll bet that the empty space there is for familiars! I KNOW theres gotta be a shoppe somewheres across the Ocean with them for sale cheap enough for me(100 pieces of eight). If only I could find this magical shoppe....."

Quite childish I see now. I don't care about getting a monkey anyways, I mean, I know I'll never earn one because of how bad I am at all the puzzles discluding Treasure Drop. Be it as it is. Live with it people, there will always be those rich and excellent players out there who deserve them. Whereas the rest of the population doesn't put our minds to it, and train and practice for 300 hours.... Look at Tristan and Cyndiepet on the Viridian ocean, they now own 3 islands. Kirin even, which is my favorite island. I congratulate them and wish them happy lives.

Stop whining about it, if you don't have the proper skills, you probably won't until you train some mores.
----------------------------------------
TIS A BIG ________(blank space).
XD
Johnnyport. The most average of any average addicted-to-video-games-kid you ever seen. :P

Visit my Ironworking stall on Lima island in the Jade Archipelago, on the Viridian Ocean
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rsenkrantz

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Re: Renting Familiars

 

So even though rented familiars are out of the question, is there something else that might be analogous to them that could fit the role as an extremely expensive, not currently buyable, readily visible status symbol that people might be willing to pay gobs of gold into the vast nothingness outside the economy in order to rent?


A.


Nose.

Edit: Oh yeah, and mind the huge bump one post back.
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"You know, I just gotta say that everytime Rsenkrantz posts I love him just a little bit more."
- Loola

"Dood -- I'll give ya 10 poe if I can be a card card carrying member of the Rosey fan club."
-Lisakayela
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by rsenkrantz at Feb 7, 2006 2:53:27 PM]
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