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Forums » List all forums » Forum: Crafting Puzzle Project » Thread: Logical Crafting: Guppy contestant feedback thread |
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Thread Status: Locked Total posts in this thread: 45
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
The Guppy round of Logical Crafting is now over. Please use the Guppy Proposal thread for any further discussion of Guppy. ---------------------------------------- This thread is for feedback on Guppy for those entering the Logical Crafting event. The logic puzzle part will be posted on May 18th; see the thread in Events for details. One lucky winner will get a sloop named either "Logical Guppy", "Puzzled Guppy" or "Crafty Guppy", on any ocean. Runners-up (if any) will get a small prize as well. Go here to start. After you are familiar with Guppy, you can start posting your feedback to this thread. Please do not spam the thread, but you are definitely encouraged to post multiple times, as you think of new things to say. Please note that Guppy is a NetLogo prototype, not a fancy Game Gardens game. The graphics would be much improved on Game Gardens. Easy questions (one or two points each):
More challenging questions (points awarded based on usefulness of answer):
Deadline for entries to this thread is noon Pacific, Sunday May 20th. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by CraftingProj at May 20, 2007 12:37:39 PM] |
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kierra214
Joined: Jun 2, 2006 Posts: 874 Status: Offline |
I've only played the first two levels so far, but here are my first impressions.
I found some of the color changes that the sponge does unintuitive when starting out. I think it would be good if the board showed what the selected paint/sponge will do when you hover the mouse over part of the board.
I'd say only mildly addicting due to the game's slow mouse-click recognition. I think that without this, it would be more addictive.
Yes.
I think it feels kind of like a cross between a tailoring and a weaving puzzle. The cloth dying is very much a weaving thing, but the cutting patches seems more like tailoring.
I liked the plain except for the lack of a grid, which made it trickier to count the squares in large patches. My second choice was the hatching, which seemed a little busy. It might be better if the hatching was a darker shade of the color instead of black. I don't really like the letters at all, both because international players may find it confusing and because I don't find it visually appealing.
See answer to the first question. ---------------------------------------- Magrat SO of Polish War Fog Viridian |
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AnijKittie
Joined: Mar 19, 2007 Posts: 16 Status: Offline |
For me it took me a few times to actually understand what I was supposed to do to manipulate the game then it took me a couple minutes more to figure out the object. This is after reading the "How to Play" and watching the video. (it has no sound by the way)
There is no addiction factor for me on this game. I don't think there will be.
It's something to do when your bored. I wouldn't exactly say fun. It's like a board game that you only pull out when someone else wants to play and that rarely happens.
No, it feels more like tailoring 'cause of the cutting and it's cloth.
hatching, it's easier on the eyes and it makes it have a cloth feel to it. like a texture.
level 1, I only played 1 and 2 but the green just made it way too difficult to get things done. I like level 1 because I can use 1 cloth for all three colors.
I don't think so, it looks way too difficult.
not clearing the score when you switch to a new level would be nice and adding more paint on the higher levels so you dont run out of it making mixed colors. ---------------------------------------- Rikayan of the Verdian Ocean Pirate of the Pilliaging Fools Member of the flag Soulmates Chief Petty Officer in the Labyrinth Moors Navy in the Onyx Archipelago |
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gldnstern
Joined: Aug 5, 2005 Posts: 238 Status: Offline |
Moving this here from the main Guppy thread.
I'm using Firefox 2.0.0.3 on XP Professional, and I'm fairly sure my Java is fully up-to-date. The holding down the click longer thing helped a bit, to the point where I can bear to play the game now (so that's a good start!). However, I still cannot get a new board the way I expect it to work -- my understanding from all the 'documentation' and feedback in the other thread is that you can click "get new cloth" without ending the game, for instance if you have not completed all the orders for a certain color. Now if that isn't how it's supposed to be, this next part is probably not so much a bug as me being dense. When I click "get new cloth", the "game over" text floats down the board, and that's it. I still have to refresh the page to actually get a new game (and board), however. This is all on level 1 so far, if that affects it. Over the next couple of days I should be able to play more, and on higher levels, and hopefully have some feedback on the actual game. |
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IcewolfAZ
Joined: Sep 6, 2006 Posts: 24 Status: Offline |
Hokay, 1) Not hard at all. Most of the difficulty playing was getting the mouse-click recognition to go, and learning the mechanics of game maneuvering. 2) I can see me being seriously addicted to this game. Better make it the Tailor puzzle ;D I've played too many games of this already. 3)Playing the game is fun, yet if the mouse-click condition isn't rectified it'll remove the fun from the game. That aside, I agree with earlier posters having a color chart showing the color arrays would be better. Chart Red + Yellow = Orange, Red + Blue = Purple, etc.. Not everyone knows what colors to meld to get what. And there are unexpected color changes and how does brown figure in? more than 3 colors on a square etc... 4) I do believe, it is deffinately a fabric puzzle but I think it's more tailoring than weaving. I dunno yet I"m torn. Weaving I think of looms and shuttlecocks and spinning wheels and carding wool. Weaving should have more to do with taking hemp, adding dyes and then combining the right 'dyed threads' to make x,y,z of fabric. The speed and precision of doing so makes it cloth or fine cloth. 5) Deffinately Plain, with grid if possible :) Plain with outline of 50% grey would be enough I'd think. 6) I think level 7 was alot of fun, very relaxing somewhere around a Renowned/Grand-Master level.. level 12 was insanely hard. I scored the most points (92,000+) but it came down to loading new fabric till I "lucked" into the requirements. That took some (most) of the fun out at that level, but Hey and Ult is an Ult, might be my first chance at it ;) I could probably be happy somewhere between 7 and 12 as well. :) I scored in the 50k's on level 7 without really trying to hard :) I do like the puzzle alot though. :) ---------------------------------------- Icewolfaz - Most places, most whens. ;) |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
If you have at least one pair of scissors still showing at the top when you click "Get new cloth", then you should not get the "Game Over". The idea is to only use the scissors when you can fill an order for that particular color. If you plan to use more than just one board, then don't try to harvest every color from the first one - just the ones that will fill their orders. Does that help? ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
If you look just above the applet when you are playing (that is, right above the "Play Now!"), there's a color grid displayed.  If I don't get drowned in too many other projects, eventually Guppy will be rewritten in Java for GameGardens - after we do the bulk of the tweaking. Adding a border to the various squares is easy. I'll put that on the TODO list for the next version, probably as a 4th pattern-type. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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kjbetle
Joined: Oct 4, 2006 Posts: 9 Status: Offline |
Learning to play the game over all was not too hard. However, there were things that were hard to learn how to play. Mostly common mistakes that occurred for me was placing the dye on the cloth with out having it go over the side. This was basically when I thought I was far enough from the side I really was not; I would think it be more helpful if when picking up a dye it was not a circle but the shape of how many blocks it will cover. I think this would be helpful more in level one where the player is learning how to play and by third level going back to the circle. I also did not understand why I was getting points taken away for penalty, would be nice to see penalty x for xxxxxxxxxx. Then I would know what I did wrong and not do it again. The next was the scissors, did not know once you use the scissors that was it, right? I dont remember reading anything about that if it was there I over read it. I think if this is the case and the scissors are only to be used once then it should be said. Also think that level one should be able to use the scissors at least twice because I had a time when I used it and then used another one and after that saw I could of used the scissors I used first. I did not like having to hit setup and then hit go, wish there was just one button to hit, but most likely will when the puzzle is improved. Basically this what I had trouble learning Guppy and basically things that can be easily changed.
As of right now the addiction factor is not yet there for me. I think once Guppy is given that YPP touches then I do think Guppy can become addicting. When I said YPP touch that means all the fancy sounds, graphics, etc I was not getting the addiction factor because of many reasons first the lack of sound, I was not getting the admitted reinforcement of doing something great when the bells/chimes going off. I like when I am doing a puzzle getting some forum of reinforcement back making me feel like I am doing a great job and want to keep doing it to get more. Guppy has no sound right now and for that I felt like I was playing a game and getting nothing out if it. The graphics were also lacking and which made me become bored looking at my screen. I would love for the graphics if the dye was in buckets and sponge looked like a sponge. The objective of the game can be very addicting once things have been changed. I think it will help later when like all of the shops that have puzzle like shipyard when you can see what order you are working on. Also be nice when you click on the dye it would work the first time. Again I think the addicting factors will play more when little things are added to make the game more fun to play and things have been changed. As of right now I did force myself to play more times in order to give decent feedback mostly because I did not want to give bad feedback but cover everything.
As of right now no the game is not fun and this is mostly because of what I have said about things that need to be changed.
I feel this is like a weaving puzzle; the main thing about weaving shop is making cloth for the tailors and shipyards. This puzzle is about coloring the cloth and which is part of the weaving. Just an idea but could be cool if the cloth was on some kind of dying machine or the loom you can buy at the furniture. I just think it be cool if the cloth was on one of those, it would even make it feel like more of a weaving puzzle.
I tried all three patterns and my favorite was hatching. When doing the letter one there were too many numbers on the cloth and was hurting my eyes looking at so many numbers together. Also with the letters I had to think more of like ok here is B and there is B where with hatching I just had to look at the colors. The plain one was first off boring and I did not like it because had no lines around the block clearing showing where each block was. This was confusing because I had to place blocks in my head and count that way. Hatching was the best one of the three, I liked how the blocks were outlined and I was able to just look at the colors and be able to figure out what areas have more of a certain color.
My favorite level still is level one until like all other puzzles until I fully understand what I am doing will other levels become more fun and I get a new favorite. Also once things are added to make the game more fun will then increase my playing and I will move on from level one. My scores have been crazy going up and down and I am not sure why I have not been able to keep raising the score. I keep thinking I am fixing my mistakes but I must keep finding more mistakes. I think this was my favorite because it was still simple, only three colors and again once I fully understand it and things are added to make it more fun then yeah my favorite level will change. Just like any puzzle on YPP the first level for a while was fun but now when doing a puzzle and starting over with a puzzle I hate the first level and like the more harder level, like sailing I just made a new pirate and was doing sailing and I hated the first level till I moved up and thats when I started to have fun again. ---------------------------------------- Kbetle: Senior Officer of Otherwhen Kbetle: Lady of the flag Ladgaldrial: Senior Officer of the Tribbles Siryn: Senior Officer of Lunar Rogues |
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Kinocha
Joined: Apr 21, 2005 Posts: 743 Status: Offline |
I'm experience the same problem. I use Windows Vista Home Basic (not entirely by choice) and Firefox version 2.0.0.3. I use the latest verision of Java. I tried to hold down the mouse button a little longer, and it sort of fixed the problem. Now I'm experiencing that suddenly the dye is placed different from where I intend. (Ocationally it is placed while I'm moving my mouse over the board (no, I don't hold the mousekey down while moving it)) Bonus Dye:When are the bonus dye suposed to be awarded? When you cut the cloth, or when you have enough dyed cloth on the board? Pattern: I prefer the plain one, its easier on the eyes. But as others have said, a grid would be nice. And if you made it toggable, both those who want it, and those who don't, will be happy. Addictivnes At the moment it is stubborness that makes me play it. I'm determined to manage all the orders in one game, before going to next level. The games is becomming more fun, as I understands it more. In time, I might get addicted, but not jet. Difficulty challenge: I might be a bit strange, but I find the game to get easier as I'm getting higher in levels. Wishlist:
Potential bugs:Ocationaly when I dye a patch of cloth with a bead on it, instead of becoming a black wheel, I get bead lost. It happens only if I got more than one bead on the board at once, and it don't matter if it is the last one added I dye, or one of the earlier ones. ---------------------------------------- Kinocha, Senior Officer of White Rose under the flag Blood and Roses on Midnight Ocean Avatar by the amazing Koalarocker |
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tanonev
Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 1912 Status: Offline |
Figuring out how the "setup" and "go" buttons was confusing, but those don't relate to the puzzle itself, so that isn't really an issue. Similarly, the click lag made the interface very confusing, but that's a GUI issue and not a puzzle issue. The sponge and dye behavior was easy to pick up, but for what it's worth, I had read through the Guppy proposal before. The "order completion" concept didn't sink in for my first few plays. The fact that dye works in a plus shape was easy to recognize, but it still deserves mention somewhere. The fact that dye works "all the way" in the center of the plus, while making poetic sense, definitely needs to be mentioned somewhere.
The interface seriously hurts the addiction factor. That aside, I don't see any motivation to play this puzzle several times in a row. It's captivating when you're in the middle of it, though. Then again, I very seldom play crafting puzzles, so my addiction, er, susceptibility to said puzzles is lower than for duty/carousing puzzles.
Not really. Being able to see the numerical score hurts the fun factor very much because "payday" doesn't arrive until the end of the puzzle. Even with that removed, I'm not exactly fond of the extremely limited amount of input by the player. When you step back from it, what you're really doing is making 10-20 clicks on the board and making each of those clicks count as much as possible. This is vastly different from all the other puzzles, which take in more or less continuous input from the user, which amounts to hundreds of clicks or keypresses over the course of the puzzle. As a result, the puzzle lacks a sense of immersion/interactivity.
No. The cutting of cloth is most nearly a tailoring metaphor. In addition, weaving is a continuous process. This puzzle is not (see above).
Plain. The hatching is a little too distracting. The letters don't convey any information to non-colorblind people. However, plain can't be the only option since there needs to be colorblind support. I'd suggest that the hatching stripes be fewer and more spaced out.
I tried 1, 2, 3, and 12, and liked 12 the most. On level 12 I get around 200k. (I'll discuss scoring issues later.) It was my favorite because there was a definite goal to work towards (get 6 swatches of 6 on the same board) that was barely out of reach. Contrast with level 1, where the goal is easy to reach, but all the scoring opportunities arise from going as far beyond the goal as possible.
If "challenge" means I can't consistently meet my goal, then yes, level 12 still challenges me. I can't see any element of "slowly getting better", though. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that the vegas goal is tied more to skill than luck. If "strategy" involves cycling through boards until you find one with promise, I'll tell you right now that I will refuse to do that :P
Some levels give free paint and sponges just by clicking on the board a few times with nothing selected. To reproduce, just start a level 12 board, click on the board randomly a few times, then restart and repeat. Clicking on scissors when there is nothing whatsoever to cut forces you to ask for a new board. There is no way to end the game if you're out of paint and sponges and still have scissors left but nothing to cut.
Scoring right now is a little messed up. The theoretical maximum for level 1 is about 31000 (100% clear on 3 consecutive boards = 3 * (100^2 + 1000) - 2 * 1000 penalties), or less than 20% of my typical level 12 score. I'd say the most you can score barring ridiculously lucky boards on level 1 is 10000 at best. This sounds every bit as bad as the Dnav scoring method. At level 12, the clear bonus for making a donkey is 180k. My final score is about 200k, which means only 20k of that comes from beads, large swatches, etc. This 20k, mind you, included a swatch that had 1 fire bead and 2 star beads. In fact, the bead bonus isn't able to match the base clear bonus until you reach about 5 star beads in one swatch (which isn't likely to happen, considering that the beads appear randomly). The clear bonus seems so overwhelmingly high that there's no point to shooting for anything else at level 12. Addendum: I decided to try levels 9 and 10. I think the level 9 score rate is a bit high (i.e., more than twice what I can score on level 12)...in fact, levels 10-12 are probably less interesting than levels 6-9, simply because the risk-reward analysis isn't there. This isn't too bad a sign, considering that duty puzzles only have 9 stars. I'll have to try 6 stars some time to see how that one stands.  ---------------------------------------- Tanonev on Sage /mute for the forums PLAY ME (updated 4/22/10) Puppetar by Tilinka |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
I can see the dye being placed one block over sometimes. It's the same reason that it happens in carp sometimes. I can't see it dropping when you are moving the mouse but not clicking - that's strange......
Bonus Dye is awarded when you make a single patch that is large enough to fill an order all by itself.
This should already work. Either click a different dye, or click the background to the right of the sponge - it is supposed to drop the dye back without wasting it.
I have noticed that if you pick up the scissors but don't use them, in a later board you can click the square where the scissors were and get scissors.
on the TODO list, due to several people asking (for next version)
We need to have some kind of benchmark on what *is* a good score before we can give praise, but I can certainly have the score float as well as Game Over.
If you can manage to reproduce this, please give me the steps. If you place dye directly on top of a bead, it's supposed to be lost. If you sponge a bead, it's supposed to be lost. If all you do is click the dye on a square *next* to a bead that is still a white star, then it's supposed to turn to the black wheel. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
I *think* this bug may be fixed in Guppy version 7 already, but the contest is using version 6. The bug would happen on levels 9+.
You should be able to click the spot the scissors came from, to put them down, then click a different pair of scissors, or dye. In a later board, you should be able to click the patch where you put the scissors, to get them back again (as long as there's no number there).
Good point, although you can certainly click "get new cloth" and hope that there is something you can cut.
Thanks! ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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tanonev
Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 1912 Status: Offline |
A word like "Complete!" or "Finished!" would probably work just as well, or even a "Nice work!" like when you fill a star meter. ---------------------------------------- Tanonev on Sage /mute for the forums PLAY ME (updated 4/22/10) Puppetar by Tilinka |
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ConnorKowale
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It was rather difficult figuring out which goes first, the dye, or the scissors. I wasn't 100% sure what fill the order means. After i finished with all three colors, it wasn't until i replaced the scissors that I was told I was done. I definitely didn't find it to be addicting, and seeing as I have an addictive personality, this is unusual. I enjoy crafting more than pillaging, but this one was not nearly as much fun as the three existing crafts. Because it involves dyes and scissors, I'd say it is closer to tailoring rather than weaving. Although plain and letters makes the game much more easier, I enjoy hatching. It doesn't hurt my eyes, and adding the pattern makes the puzzle much more difficult. I preferred level 2, because I got my highest scores there. I got around 12,000 continuously, and my high score was 15,000. I didn't get much better, atleast not as fast as I did when I started out on other crafting puzzles. I found the game to get a little bit more fun, and it was slightly relaxing, but the higher levels intimidated me a whole lot more. It seemed to me that I would actually hope for a standing fall to avoid that overwhelming mess. On my screen, the words almost always appear to the left hand side, starting at the top and moving down. Half of the word is cut out. Sometimes, it would just say Dye to the left, and I didn't understand why until i noticed i got points take off for wasted dye at the bottom. Also, I don't know if this is meant to be this way, but any dyes on the outer rim of the board get points removed. Also, new cloth didn't always remove points for me. Definitely make it so no points are deducted for dying tiles on the outer rim. Also, the scissors were almost unnoticeable. This would be fixed with updated graphics, so I'm sure it's in the works. Furthermore, the lower level should be unboochable, as are the other crafting puzzles the first time you play it. I don't think three rings would want to chance someone running away from YPP because they tried a crafting puzzle and was told they didn't earn anything because they booched so bad. ---------------------------------------- NateBush, Happy Senior Officer of Currahee Faithful constituent of LadyLola - the Queen of Camur in Vestri Calx- Endearing trenchmouth and hopeless bourgeois of Cobalt. |
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ConnorKowale
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Here is an image of the words going off the screen. It just hit me that I should get a screen shot.  ---------------------------------------- NateBush, Happy Senior Officer of Currahee Faithful constituent of LadyLola - the Queen of Camur in Vestri Calx- Endearing trenchmouth and hopeless bourgeois of Cobalt. |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
Thanks for the feedback - to everybody that I haven't already thanked. I won't always respond to each point, but I do read every single post. Adding to the TODO list: keeping the words more centered (which is harder in NetLogo than it is on GameGardens) The penalty for placing dye on one the edges was due to the analogy. Some of the dye is spilling over, making a mess on the floor - and somebody has to be paid to clean it up! ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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Patetch
Joined: Apr 22, 2006 Posts: 3301 Status: Offline |
(Not entering - just commenting :D) I must say that I found the wasted dye to be bothersome, but it is part of the strategy. There have been several times when I had to decide whether it was worth it to get a square or two on the edge. I have to say it is good to have to decide some times. ---------------------------------------- Pletoo of Sage especially enjoys prizes that can be inscribed or otherwise commemorate an event. :) |
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kierra214
Joined: Jun 2, 2006 Posts: 874 Status: Offline |
I completely missed the part where you can fill an order with multiple patches adding up to the number of tiles needed for the order. This needs to be spelled out better in the directions. I thought you had to make a single patch as large as the order needed, and then you could get bonus points for any additional patches made of that color. Couldn't figure out what I was doing special to get all those bonus dyes :P ---------------------------------------- Magrat SO of Polish War Fog Viridian |
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tanonev
Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 1912 Status: Offline |
I think if this is to be a part of the strategy, the penalty needs to be increased. Would I pay 25 (or 250, or 2500) points so I can get my 45000 to 72000-point Vegas? Of course I would ;) Also, could we start accumulating data on average, stdev, and best scores for the various levels? ---------------------------------------- Tanonev on Sage /mute for the forums PLAY ME (updated 4/22/10) Puppetar by Tilinka |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
After it is on Game Gardens (assuming it gets there), we can collect player averages and best scores. Applets don't write to files on servers; the game is played solely on the client. There's nothing to prevent you from using copy and paste from the output window (that's why it's there) to record your own scores. The scoring formulas are very tentative at the moment. After this contest ends, we will discuss whether to make drastic changes in the way scores are calculated. Increasing the dye wasted penalty is a great idea, scaled to difficultly level the way the bonuses are. It's still going to be a minor penalty. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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tanonev
Joined: Nov 18, 2006 Posts: 1912 Status: Offline |
Level 9 is officially my new favorite level :D I'll start linking to screenshots instead of inlining them to save space. Note the lack of a Vegas. Level 9 has some nice balance elements that levels 10 through 12 lack. With the larger amount of paint and sponges, it's now reasonable to make decisions between long chains and large patches (in levels 10 through 12, trying to make a large patch will result in your running out of paint). Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the waste penalty disappearing entirely. You're already paying a penalty of sorts by only getting 4 (or 3) tiles of effect for the price of 5. I'm not completely sold on the randomness of the beads, though. I think the placement of the beads too drastically affects the scoring potential of a board. If 4+ beads appear reasonably close to each other and on tiles that can all be transformed into the same primary color, the resulting scores are astronomical. If, on the other hand, the beads appear at the extremities of the board on incompatible colors, your score will probably end up around twice or three times the maximum clear bonus. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what a fix would be. We could conceivably keep the pure randomness if the scores were dampened somewhat. Allowing the player to place bead would probably have disastrous consequences. Having the placement of the bead be influenced by the color of the patch that prompted it might work, though. Forcing it to appear on a tile with the same color as the swatch that created the bead would limit the number of beads that can go into one patch, and some strategy could go into minimizing stray tiles matching the swatch to increase the chances of the bead showing up on or near the patch. On the other hand, such a solution would still cause the score to depend quite a bit on the initial board layout, favoring those that could be arranged into a "color wheel" to maximize bead consolidation potential. This beads randomness issue is low priority, though. I don't think gameplay is significantly affected by it, and the game seems intrinsically dependent on the initial layout. (Much less so than on level 12, thankfully, but there are still good and bad boards. Then again, the same could be said for Alchemistry, and at level 9, there is enough paint to patch up a bad board.) ---------------------------------------- Tanonev on Sage /mute for the forums PLAY ME (updated 4/22/10) Puppetar by Tilinka |
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DeeDeeIam
Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 365 Status: Offline |
How hard was it to learn how to play the game initially? The initial play was more difficult than I expected when I think "YPP game." In relationship to other games online, then it was relatively simple to understand. The How To section should be rewritten to flow more logically. (Ex. These things do this. Here are the mechanics. Here's so tips to get you started.) The overall game reminds me of Collapse (an online casual game) which is one of my favorite. It was nice to see the addition of adding color to the game for a different twist. What is the addiction factor? The addiction factor is seeing what the largest section you can cut out is. The blonde moment I seem to have is getting so caught up in trying to make a big color, I forget I have to fill orders. Which, might largely be because I do not understand how I am supposed to read the volume or quantity that Im filling. I thought it was the Numbers of Tiles per Order but then on lever 4 it said 10 and I got everything to 12-tile groups and still nothing completed. (bug maybe?) Separate from the addiction, is playing the game fun? I find any casual game completely attention-getting, and something that has had time and thought placed into its creation is even more intriguing to me. Does the analogy work? That is, does it feel like a weaving puzzle? I feel like I'm spilling some dye on some cloth and then cutting out the material...Seriously, I think it's more pre-weaving than weaving. It might go in the shop itself, but not listed as weaving. What is your favorite pattern? (hatching, letters, plain) Explain why. By far, the solid/plain colors are my favorite. The letters look like my keyboard has exploded its just too busy. The hatching isnt horrendous, especially give the graphic parameters in which to work. However, the hatching just seems too forced. I also have a hard time associating hatching with the act of dyeing fabric. Adding dye to the fabric does seem like it would change the threads much, which is what the hatching looks like to me (threads, that is). What is your favorite level, and what kind of scores did you get on it? Why is it your favorite? I was a fan of Level 5 because I had my 3 primary, and 3 secondary colors to play with. My score was around 70,000. The bead pieces are nice. If you do happen to play enough to get good at the game, does the most difficult level still challenge you? It could be easily adapted to progress (i.e. bigger blocks, less colors, small minimum patch size) in order to follow the design schemes already set in motion by OOO. Much like what the Guppy designers have created, just with a bit more variety in the levels. It seems too abbreviated, with little flexibility on each level. If you spot bugs, please report them. If you can tell how to reproduce the bug, it is worth more points. These arent bugs, so much as annoyances: The clicking is very troublesome. And I can't seem to drop pieces once I've picked them up. When I add red dye in the middle of a yellow grid that is 6x6 I only end up with 4 orange peices and the middle red. Is that a programmed thing? Like a fade-out factor? Because when I do it close to other colors it "mixes" correctly. If there is something that you think would significantly help the game, please post about it as well. Ideas for a new level perhaps? Complementary colors, when mixed together, create a neutralized or grayed-down version of the original/base color. From your color chart, the "original color" appears to be the dye, not the palette or cloth. That seems like backwards logic to me. The cloth is there and you are putting a material (dye) on to the fibers, therefore the cloth would be the original color. Yellow dye added to green cloth is going to result in a lime-ish green color, not yellow. There are secondary colors mixing with primary colors and the result is ending up with the original primary color. This goes against prime color theory. That being said, the sponging of the colors would change. Oh, and KB anyone? Black? I'm a big fan of black. ---------------------------------------- DeeDeeIam, Siren's Song-Sage Illium Eternae ;) |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
After you make your larger patches, you need to pick up the scissors to cut them out. It's perfectly ok to just make one huge patch of a single color on a piece of cloth, cut it, then get a new piece of cloth.
I'm working on a different way of handling the mouse clicks, which should help eventually. Holding the mouse key down a bit longer than usual often works. To drop, click the other thing that you want to pick up instead, or click the blank area to the right of the sponges. To drop scissors, you can click the place you got that pair of scissors. The dye is supposed to turn the tile clicked the same color as the dye, and the four tiles that share edges with it mix their colors with the dye according to the chart. Red dye on yellow fabric should give red in the center, and 4 orange tiles around it, with the 4 corner tiles still yellow.
Our initial brain-storming had twice as many colors. The biggest problem is trying to design a game that could be played by those who are color-blind as well as those who aren't. Even for those with perfect color sense, having more colors on the board can be very intimidating. We may still add some of them on higher levels. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
I had planned to not make any changes to the version of Guppy used for the contest, but since the mouse clicking was so bothersome and I think I finally have it fixed, I uploaded it. Hopefully this will take some of the frustration out of playing Guppy. (also hopefully it didn't introduce new bugs.....) ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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Guido64380
 Joined: Apr 22, 2006 Posts: 3 Status: Offline |
Ok, "easy" questions in order: -I found the game fairly simple to understand the basic goal of the game and how to get there but it took me a little while to get used to the placement of the "dye" -Personally I didn't find this game too addicting. After 2 or 3 rounds it got repetitive so theres not too much replay value in my oppinion. -Fun, not really. Theres not to much challenge in finding useful areas to "cut" and the dye placement is kind of annoying in that the center is full color and the edges mix. -Hatching is my favourite pattern. Plain is well...too plain. Letters isn't all that useful and doesn't make it seem professional. Hatching makes it look more like something we'd see on the actual game. ---Initially looking at this puzzle it looked like some sort of tailoring tailoring puzzle and not a weaving puzzle. I noticed no bugs in the game but if I could change one thing, I'd make the blank spots fill with random pieces so you arent left with a mass of useless scattered bits and pieces. |
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mcpirate1978
Joined: May 6, 2005 Posts: 549 Status: Offline |
Actually, I thought this was pretty good, although there are some things that could have been spelled out a bit better. I think some have been mentioned already, but here are my comments. - I found myself constantly referring back to the chart when it came to sponging composite colors. I could never remember what I'd end up with if I were to try to sponge orange, green, or purple. - I had no idea until I came out here that you can cut multiple patches to complete a single order. - Honestly, I'm not sure if this is intended or if it's a bug, but I find that, when I place a unit of dye, it has one effect on the spot I place it and a slightly different effect on those spaces nearby. For example, if I place a unit of yellow dye on a set of 5 blues, I would expect to get 5 greens. Instead, I get 4 greens surrounding a yellow. It's like the space where you place the dye gets 2 units of dye while the surrounding ones get only 1. Like I said, not sure if this was intended, or not, but I certainly didn't see it in the instrcutions. It was only vaguely addiciting, for me. I played both before and after the mouse recognition fix and I can say that the fix certainly helps greatly. However, I feel like this puzzle is much like alchemy in that you can agonzie over it for long periods of time looking for the "best" solution. I simply prefer something more fast-paced, like distilling, or even shipwrightery. I suspect this is just my personality, but it's what I think of it. Yes, it is. I've been reading what many of the other folks were saying about this being more of a tailoring puzzle, but I actually think the analogy works pretty well. You're trying to make colors of cloth, which is exactly what a weavery does. So, for me, anyway, I like the analogy. I've been using hatching because it's easy to see the grid, but it does get a little busy. The letters are horrible. I probably enjoy the middle levels the best (4-6) right now. If I were to play a bit more, I might enjoy the challenge of the higher levels a bit more. Some things I noticed: - As I mentioned above, placing a unit of dye on a space has a different effect on the space you placed it than it does on the spaces surrounding it. As another test, I just placed a unit of blue on some red spaces and the surrounding spaces turned purple (which I'd expect) while the space I actually placed it turned blue (which I didn't expect). - The various penalties currently have no impact on your score. I get the message saying I lost 25 points or 100 points or whatever, but nothing is taken away from my current score. As such, I can hunt for a nice board and then take advantage. I noticed that, when applying a sponge, both orange and green go to yellow while purple goes to blue. Wouldn't it make more sense to have each composite color go to a different primary? Perhaps orange could go to red, instead of yellow. As it stands right now, it's harder to make red cloth than any other color - there are 6 combinations that will give you yellow and 5 for blue, but only 4 for red. If sponged orange went to red, you'd have 5 combinations for each primary. It also seems a little strange that sponging a composite color leaves you with a primary color while sponging brown, which is really 3 layers of color, wipes out all color and gives you tan. On the other hand, I don't really have a good solution for this. If you went to some composite, which would you choose? Anything you choose would make the puzzle unbalanced. Perhaps browns can't be recovered? How about adding some additional bonuses? You have the buttons right now which add to your score and you do have a bonus to get you some extra dye, but what about other random bonuses that appear occasionally? Some possibilities might include: - Extra dye/sponge pickups (if you include such a powerup in an order, you get one extra of each dye). - Wildcard dye that works similar to quicksilver in alchemy - turns patches silver which makes them match any color. ---------------------------------------- Fullbeard |
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tcarr
Joined: Jun 7, 2004 Posts: 4294 Status: Offline |
This is intentional, it's just not spelled out well in the instructions. The idea is that if you pour a bucket of dye in one spot, a lot of the dye will be in the center, but less on the 4 adjacent tiles. Also, we thought the game would be too easy if the center tile was changed the same as the 4 adjacent ones.
This is a legitimate bug. I noticed it and fixed it in Guppy 7 when I changed the "get new cloth" penalty to scale with the difficultly level. I'll have to check to see if there's a similar bug with the "wasted dye" penalty. ---------------------------------------- LordKalvan of Otherwhen, all oceans but mostly Midnight |
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DeeDeeIam
Joined: Jul 26, 2006 Posts: 365 Status: Offline |
I still don't notice a difference. :( Sorry hun. ---------------------------------------- DeeDeeIam, Siren's Song-Sage Illium Eternae ;) |
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SilveRansom
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3827 Status: Offline |
It's somewhat simple to pick up and play. It's not intuitive how the colors react in corner cases, scoring is vague, and it's unclear as to what an "order" consists of. Does it have a numerical threshold for being a valid order? I'm still not sure what exactly it is I'm trying to do, except for make patches of color, hopefully biggish. Do I optimize my click-per-cut ratio, or just go for the huge blocks of color? But, what's all this about getting new patches of cloth, holes in the board, and why again does coloring a bead give a penalty?
/e shrugs... it's interesting, but ambiguous enough in its goals and counterintuitive enough in its mechanics so as to be relatively non-addictive.
It's fun enough. Playing with colors is interesting. As an artist, though, it's a little bizarre to see what happens with the colors. It's internally consistent enough, so that's great. It's just not intuitive, and the potential number of weird color interactions makes it a bit much to memorize for an internal system.
I thought weavers, you know, weaved cloth. Dying it is a different job. That said, I suppose that dying it fits into the YPP Weavery, but only as a tangent. It's good for YPP, but not very intuitive. But hey, I'll take a tenuous connection if the puzzle is fun, so this is a very minor quibble.
Plain, by far. I'd like a mild grid, as has been noted by others, though. The other two patterns are way too busy to make playing with colors worth looking at for more than a few minutes.
I've only played 1 and 7, but of the two, 7 was more interesting. I'm sure I scored poorly, though (1000ish and 4000ish respectively), since I can't tell what in the world I'm doing.
From what I've seen, and presuming I someday grok the "new patch" bit, I imagine that the mid to high level play would be more interesting. (Challenging=interesting sometimes.) It certainly requires forethought and planning rather than planning on the fly, reacting to puzzle changes. That's both good and bad, but mostly just different.***
I've not run into bugs as yet, except for the click detection. It magnified the "what the heck is going on?" factor, but now that I know that it's not the game mechanics being wonky, rather, it's a mechanical thing, it's less troublesome.
After the initial wow factor of fiddling with color wears off, I'm not sure I'd want to play a lot, as it gives me a headache. I'm an artist professionally and sensitive to color. Maybe I'm just too fussy, but having the game behave counterintuitively doesn't make it all that appealing to me. I expect it to behave a certain way given my understanding of color theory, and when it doesn't, and I have to keep referring to the chart to see what things will do, it just isn't all that fun. ***Looking at this "planning" vs. "reacting", I have to wonder, is this one machine solvable? Where's the random factor to keep the Deep Blues away? Maybe it's that bonus dyes are random, and I guess the beads do a bit of randomizing, but that doesn't seem like enough. Those are extra fiddly bits, rather than a major structural component of the puzzle. I suspect that the major thrusts of the strategy would be machine solvable. It's probably just me, though. ---------------------------------------- Silveransom sells art like this or this |
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SilveRansom
Joined: Apr 16, 2006 Posts: 3827 Status: Offline |
Gak, double post, but I missed something. The dye buckets and sponges affect the board differently geometrically, which is probably good strategically, but it's not obviously documented so far as I could tell. It'd be nice to know this as a beginning player before fiddling around. ---------------------------------------- Silveransom sells art like this or this |
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