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homullus

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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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trick44 wrote: 
Dude, transparency in government.

Get off your high horse and eat some hay.


Wait, I don't get it. Are the people saying "we want/need/deserve our own channel" on a high horse, or the people saying "do it the way I suggested and hush up" on a high horse?
[Apr 28, 2004 3:10:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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I will point out, though - there are very valid reasons for both /so and /ally channels. Coordination during large scale wars and blockades.

On the other hand, all the CO's can job into the same holding crew, and use /jcrew, so ... maybe it's moot. But the latter takes a bit of setup the former doesn't.
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Silvermoon, First Mate, Silver Dragon Trading Company
Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Apr 28, 2004 3:19:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Vurogj

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Bah, I have been thinkin' to meself that /so would be lovely, and was thinkin' o' seein' if it had been suggested, and am happy it was.......








and then I just laughed at a lot o' the funny posts after that.
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[Apr 28, 2004 3:39:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    vurogj    vurojg [Link]  Go to top 
weezerlp



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My main argument for SO chat is so that you can talk between many SO's that may happen to be on the same ship while out to sea. If you want to talk about strategy between a couple of so's, or simply talk about an officer without him knowing, this makes it so much easier than tells. Yes, comma delineated tells would work well also, but they have to get cumbersome after a while. Although I doubt I'd be talking to more than 2 so's at a time, /tell ing both of them in the middle of a sea battle to find out where someone is on the ship or make sure carp stays down is a bit annoying.

Just and idea, and I can't see it being that hard to implement.

-Weez
[Apr 28, 2004 4:17:42 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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weezerlp wrote: 
Although I doubt I'd be talking to more than 2 so's at a time, /tell ing both of them in the middle of a sea battle to find out where someone is on the ship or make sure carp stays down is a bit annoying.-Weez


Why would you need /so to find out where somebody is, or to work on carp? Won't /who and vessel chat do that?
[Apr 28, 2004 4:21:21 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
ramirojr



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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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Or a quick tell to those 2 SOs? In my opinion, which is just my opinion (although fact nonetheless...), a SO chat would be annoying and tedious, but a SO chat about keeping carp stations covered or finding locations of SOs just seems even more annoying and tedious. And I'm not saying that you are wrong for suggesting this, because I honestly believe that SO chat would just become something like this. It will just be a way to distant SOs from their crews and restrict conversations with a certain group of people.

And I know I promised that I wouldn't say anything else on this topic, but I really believe that SO chat would be tedious, annoying, and work to distant SOs from the rest of the crew.
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Lizzie

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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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An SO chat channel seems a bit ridiculous. Get an IM program.. we all use MSN and it works quite well. Or one of those voice chat programs.
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[Apr 28, 2004 8:22:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Raerlynn



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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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In my flag, /fo and /officer chat are already a rarely used occurance. You're better off making an AIM chat room. Less fuss.
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[Apr 28, 2004 8:28:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Raerlynn99    Raerlynn65 [Link]  Go to top 
weezerlp



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Ok all, no need to get all personal-I agree AIM may be easier, but I was just looking for an in-game way to talk to my fellow so's. We'll leave it up to Cleaver to decide if it should go into the game or not.

-Weez
[Apr 28, 2004 8:37:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
ramirojr



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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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I don't think we were trying to get personal. I was just saying that what you said would end up being a common use of this chat feature, and I would like to avoid it. I didn't mean to get personal, if I did, and I apologize if I did, but my point still stands.

And discussion is what this forum is all about. Cleaver and Co. will decide what gets put into the game, but discussion is still important. We all are just saying our opinions. Again, I don't want to be mean, but this was just one of those ideas about which I wanted my opinion heard, as did many other people. Even if discussion might not be pretty all the time, it is helpful overall.

I hope I cleared up some stuff, and again, I don't want to turn this into anything personal, and I think the discussion has been pretty good to this point.
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My backpacking buddy wrote: 
Remember that time we went through the Hall o'Precedents, then refused t'do it again? That Summer were the best.

[Apr 28, 2004 8:49:53 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
weezerlp



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I wasn't getting offended or anything, just wanted to make sure no one was gettin mad at me for my idea :)

As it is, before I see /so chat, I'd like to see multiple-ship battles and weaving puzzles first. But that's just my opinion, i could be wrong.

-Weez
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MKSparrow

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Crystallina wrote: 
MKSparrow wrote: 
Crystallina wrote: 
I am 100% completely serious about wanting /so. There is a large jump in what an Officer needs to hear and what a SO needs to hear.

Aren't tells good enough?


Quite a pain sending a tell to ALL the SOs at once.


So umm... all 10 of you are online at the same time all the time?
I mean most crews don't have that many SO's on at the same time...I guess my point is that only a very limited number of people would benefit from such channel
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54x

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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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Dude, transparency in government.

Get off your high horse and eat some hay.


Heh, you need SOME transperancy, but that doesn't mean they need to know everything. Besides, some people wouldn't WANT to meet with "junior members" about. Don't ask me why, I love our junior members.
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[Apr 28, 2004 3:51:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.mjwhitehead.com/    raasike54    secondlight5454    32987700 [Link]  Go to top 
crowsdiamond

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I can see both the benefits and drawbacks of an /fso channel. Using AIM is ok, but if I am on the water, I really don't have the time or inclinations to watch a wordy chat room that ISN"T on my game interface. As is, I have to scroll up often to catch all the info flying around on our /fofficers channel. (Yes, we are a VERY chatty flag... a chatty flag is a happy flag, for me *grin*)

I, too, would like an in-game function for the SO's of the flag to use. It isn't to talk about the junior officers, or make fun of them. But there is certain information that is privy to the SO's that the others simply don't need to know. It isn't about exclusion, its about being able to be where *I* want to be and still be able to pass the information around in a group that needs to be said. I have been in enough long meetings in my piratey life that to delete the need to all have to be in the same place to share that information would be a godsend.

Booching could easily be a problem, as well as spam, and aye, I would like to see some other neato stuff in place before we have more chat channels. BUT, I don't want this ruled out, either... those of you that don't want it... well, ya ain't gotta use, it, now do ya? You could always just have your cap'n demote ya.


*blinks innocently*
/me realizes she just broke her promise not to EVER post on here again.... some things just can't be helped...

[size=9]*blows a kiss to Attesmythe* ~_^ Couldn't stay mad at ya, darlin.. sowwy
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~Faile
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Once Captain of the Falcon's Fury
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[Apr 28, 2004 10:31:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Crowsdiamond [Link]  Go to top 
atteSmythe

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crowsdiamond wrote: 
[size=9]*blows a kiss to Attesmythe* ~_^ Couldn't stay mad at ya, darlin.. sowwy

Yeah, I'm wubbable. Actually, it's a good thing you posted that disclaimer, because I knew you would be back, and I was just waitin' to pounce on the I Told You So. :p

FWIW, I'm not sorry about locking the thread, but I'll endeavor to find more appropriate links before lockage in the future.

atteSmythe,
in a dumb mood, ignore him
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[Apr 29, 2004 2:47:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://attesmythe.com [Link]  Go to top 
ramirojr



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crowsdiamond wrote: 
/me realizes she just broke her promise not to EVER post on here again.... some things just can't be helped...

Lemme tell ya, it's impossible to get away.
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My backpacking buddy wrote: 
Remember that time we went through the Hall o'Precedents, then refused t'do it again? That Summer were the best.

[Apr 29, 2004 3:27:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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crowsdiamond wrote: 
I can see both the benefits and drawbacks of an /fso channel. Using AIM is ok, but if I am on the water, I really don't have the time or inclinations to watch a wordy chat room that ISN"T on my game interface.


I agree that a flag SO channel is useful. And an ally channel to talk to allies (so & above) but the latter would be mainly for specific actions and jobbing chat could work, too. The former is good for more spontaneous planning, I think.

I don't really see a need for a crew SO channel. The crew officer channel serves most the purpose, and when it doesn't, I can use tell.

I see these as tools for coordinating large, flag-wide and alliance-wide activities. Used real time to discuss strategy and specific tactics. It's important to have the functionality in game if you're trying to really coordinate multiple ships between crews and even flags in a war or blockade.

For day-to-day use, though, I don't think this is as important, so using AIM is a good alternative for crew-level SO chat - and we do that ourselves already (reminds me, I need to find out if one o' our SOs has AIM) Works well for crew level, but at a flag or large scale, it'd be a nightmare in AIM, if being used realtime.
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Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Apr 29, 2004 3:44:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
Crystallina

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MKSparrow wrote: 
Crystallina wrote: 
MKSparrow wrote: 
Crystallina wrote: 
I am 100% completely serious about wanting /so. There is a large jump in what an Officer needs to hear and what a SO needs to hear.

Aren't tells good enough?


Quite a pain sending a tell to ALL the SOs at once.


So umm... all 10 of you are online at the same time all the time?
I mean most crews don't have that many SO's on at the same time...I guess my point is that only a very limited number of people would benefit from such channel


It's not uncommon that we have about 6 or 7 SOs on.
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[Apr 29, 2004 3:50:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    YPP+Crystallina [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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How about we just go back to the idea of being able to create your own chat channel, and invite people? And when you log off, your participation ends?

You make one before a blockade, and can chat with whomever you want.

You make one before a meeting. You make one before a voyage.

And then we see no more requests for special channels! Ever! Yay!

/em huggles everyone's cookies until they are crumbs
[Apr 29, 2004 3:54:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
adramolek

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Realizing this has been said before, but saying it again anyway: one idea I think that would solve all of these problems without actually adding more inane chat channels to the game for people that honestly don't care is to just allow users to customize their own chat channels.

It could be set up similar to a hearty list, like so: You set up one or more named chat channels. You see a person, you click "invite to be in chat channel", you enter the name of the channel, it asks them, they approve or deny.

A single new command would be added, perhaps "/lchat" for "list chat" or something, usage being "/lchat [channel_name] [message]". So now you just /lchat with your channel name and it's cool. You can make an SO channel. You can make a carper channel. You can make a captain channel, a Senior Officers In Flags That My Flag Is Allied With channel, or anything you want. An OCL brawl team channel, a drinking match channel, a channel for people with the same hats as you. And all that would be possible with the addition of just one command.

The channel could be set up so that anybody in the channel could invite other people to join the channel and that change would be reflected in all members channel lists, just as if a new person was invited to join a player's crew. Channels with the same name could exist, but a person couldn't be in two channels with the same name at the same time. Channels would have to be renameable. For this all to remain coordinated the channel lists would have to be maintained by the server, rather than as a client-side configuration option.

It would be pretty much exactly like having chat rooms in the game, with the chat "rooms" all being handled in the little command line rather than in separate windows. With the exception that channel names wouldn't be unique. Just to avoid problems when 10 crews all want a channel called "Senior Officers".

 
How about we just go back to the idea of being able to create your own chat channel, and invite people? And when you log off, your participation ends?

You make one before a blockade, and can chat with whomever you want.

You make one before a meeting. You make one before a voyage.

And then we see no more requests for special channels! Ever! Yay!

Cheers to freaky simulposts. Although the channels that I just mentioned would continue to exist regardless of whether the members logged off or not.
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by adramolek at Apr 29, 2004 3:58:59 AM]
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bokodasu



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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 
How about we just go back to the idea of being able to create your own chat channel, and invite people? And when you log off, your participation ends?

You make one before a blockade, and can chat with whomever you want.

You make one before a meeting. You make one before a voyage.

And then we see no more requests for special channels! Ever! Yay!


Ooh, I want a special channel that copies everything I say to Homullus!

No, wait, the other idea. (Hadn't noticed that suggestion before, but I like it. If it could change my hairstyle, paint my shoppe, and do less damage to ships, but more on the swordfight screen, it would be perfect.)
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[Apr 29, 2004 4:01:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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bokodasu wrote: 
If it could change my hairstyle, paint my shoppe, and do less damage to ships, but more on the swordfight screen, it would be perfect.)


You forgot the bit where it allows you to watch your mischievous little brother's swordfights and brawls real-time in-game.
[Apr 29, 2004 4:09:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
bokodasu



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homullus wrote: 
You forgot the bit where it allows you to watch your mischievous little brother's swordfights and brawls real-time in-game.


If I had been able to sail my own ship without being an officer, I wouldn't have forgotten.
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[Apr 29, 2004 4:12:02 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Silverstar

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homullus wrote: 
How about we just go back to the idea of being able to create your own chat channel, and invite people? And when you log off, your participation ends?


I fully endorse this idea. Something very similiar exists on another online community I'm part of, and for the most part, it works very well. The few issues it has do not relate to how you suggest implementing this. (ie - it is open for the most part, and anyone can join social channels, which I do not think is appropriate for here. A couple of the open social channels have spawned variants due to acrimony, but autoclearing on logoff, and keeping them strictly unlisted (unless member) invite-only, would prevent that from really being an issue)

I remember reading somewhere that Cleaver & Co want to see Y!PP support IM so those who can't play can still chat ... if that is true and still planned, this would be a logical feature to implement before hand.
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Silverstar, Instructor, Puzzle Pirates Academy (retired)
[Apr 29, 2004 4:45:37 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.livejournal.com/users/chirik    Chirik    yppSilvermoon [Link]  Go to top 
jasandrea

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Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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homullus wrote: 
How about we just go back to the idea of being able to create your own chat channel, and invite people? And when you log off, your participation ends?

You make one before a blockade, and can chat with whomever you want.

You make one before a meeting. You make one before a voyage.

And then we see no more requests for special channels! Ever! Yay!

/em huggles everyone's cookies until they are crumbs


I think customizeable chat channels are a great idea (and I think they're on The Mighty List), but they don't solve the problem that people are trying to solve - which is a desire for persistant role based communication.

To give this some real world context, one of the projects I work on we're constantly struggling with the need to give the right people access to the right information (in our case, financial reports, in the Y!PP case, chat channels). If you're targetting project managers, there's a number of ways you can grant them access.

A) You can send a message to everyong, letting them know that they can request access to your information if they're a project manager and need it.
B) You can make a big list and grant access to all of the current project managers.
C) You can look up somewhere an indication of who is and isn't a project manager and dynamically grant them access based on that.

I see these as mapping (I'm stretching the analogy, I know) to game ideas of:
A) Inviting everyone to attend a meeting.
B) Making a list of all the people who you want to talk to in a certain scenario and adding them to a customized channel.
C) Getting the admins to create a new channel.

The problem with A) is that you're relying on the audience to do something specific. Whether it's showing up for a meeting or requesting access, it's not something that just flows with their day to day job. They have to go out of their way to get the information.

The problem with B) is keeping the list updated. If the lists are persistent, this problem is relatively low because you only need to know as people come and go from their role, but sharing becomes problematic. - everyong has to maintain their own. If the custom lists are non-persistent, you have to do this every time you want to log on and have a conversation with that core group of people. And if a new SO logs on in the middle of the conversation, they're not automatically added, because you don't necessarily know they're there. Plus, if the person who started the list, and therefore the conversation logs off or DCs, does the list go away, or can the other 10 people who are in the middle of a conversation continue using it (IRC model)?

C is the most convenient for the users, because everything is handled behind the scenes. There's rarely a need for anybody to do any work to start a communication / access information, it's just there. It has it's own problems though, in that it can be time and resource intensive to set up. Once it's up, though, it's easy to maintain.

Finding a balance between B and C is a constant struggle, and there are still situations in which we do A because we have no clear role definitions that would allow us to implement B or C. In this case, the role definitions are clear - the database knows who is a flag SO, who is an allied royal and owns a rummery on Guava. The difficulty then, becomes determining where you draw the line to balance the difficulties of using B versus the difficulties of setting up C.

Obviously, Hom, you drew the line several channels ago, and wish the devs would stop with the channels already. For others, they'd like to push further on to C. I personally think we're rapidly approaching the line but that we probably haven't come to it quite yet. Obviously, only the devs can decide where the best use of their time is.
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[Apr 29, 2004 5:46:43 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    jacquilynne [Link]  Go to top 
homullus

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Indeed. My point was also, though, that it's pretty easy to come up with all sorts of groups with whom you would want to speak.

We've had requests for /flag chat, /hearty chat, /ally chat, /SO chat, /blockade chat, /officers-on-a-ship chat, /event chat, and probably more that I don't remember.

It's not that these would never be used, or be useful to somebody, or save somebody a lot of work. It's that it isn't even the end of the groups people might want to have . . . what about unofficial alliances? what about just officer and below? what about just flag merchants? what about just island merchants? what about what about what about

How many channels do you want to be fooling with muting and unmuting? How many channels do you want to hear? How many do you think should be heard, and so be impossible to mute? How many should people have to be a part of, by virtue of belonging to a certain category?

So, y'know, custom persistent lists, as with e-mail groups, would be the only way we could sanely accommodate all these desires. I am not convinced it's necessary, but I sure wouldn't fight a good system if they came up with one.

Proposing myriad myriads of specific channels is not a good system.
[Apr 29, 2004 6:16:59 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    homullus [Link]  Go to top 
Daplunderer

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Maybe when you create a channel, you could have some sort of interface to auto add people who fill certain specifications. (Such as SO or above in allinace) and you would still be able to add people manually?
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Zangor on Midnight Ocean.
[Apr 30, 2004 9:02:16 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/nickchurch [Link]  Go to top 
ramirojr



Joined: Aug 3, 2003
Posts: 2758
Status: Offline

Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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Assuming that I'm an SO or above, well, I wouldn't want to be auto-added or auto-invited to any chat channel. Too much trouble and annoyance having to deal with that.

Now, you folks may continue along your merry way.
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My backpacking buddy wrote: 
Remember that time we went through the Hall o'Precedents, then refused t'do it again? That Summer were the best.

[May 1, 2004 7:51:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
OzzyMandias



Joined: Jun 6, 2003
Posts: 8
Status: Offline

Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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Seriously though, as someone whose username starts with the letter "O", we need a /uo chat channel so that we can more effectively communicate our plans to make all users whose names start with "P" walk the plank. Or as I prefer, the olank

Oh yeah, and we also need a /sdrawkcab chat for all the EVIL pirate alteregos.
[May 2, 2004 11:24:49 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
MizzUnique



Joined: Jun 17, 2004
Posts: 107
Status: Offline

Re: More group chat modes [was: Senior Officer Chat] Reply to this Post
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BUMP

Just wondering if this is added to the list, I couldn't see any reference to SO Chat on 'The List' thread.

Although reading through this thread, there is the fact that some people may never use this, but in my crew there are up to 5 officers and the captain online at once trying to plan things and meeting on ships, chat circles just isn't so practical when we all want to do other things but be able to chat at the same time.

Thanks, Mizz
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Mizzunique

Sheogorath says: Nemo calls everyone lad or lass though, since he's like a god and we are his children.

Sheogorath says: I can't believe I lost a war to a girl in pink. Next time you won't be so lucky.
[Aug 8, 2004 5:50:44 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    Mizz1Nique1981 [Link]  Go to top 
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