• Play
  • About
  • News
  • Forums
  • Yppedia
  • Help
Welcome Guest   | Login
  Index  | Recent Threads  | Register  | Search  | Help  | RSS feeds  | View Unanswered Threads  
  Search  


Quick Go »
Thread Status: Normal
Total posts in this thread: 114
Posts: 114   Pages: 4   [ First Page | Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 | Last Page]
[Add To My Favorites] [Watch this Thread] [Post new Thread]
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 7754 times and has 113 replies Next Thread
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
a larger power must regulate the system.

that's exactly what this whole thing is about

only that the power is not authoritarian but rather competitivity.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 5:05:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 1062
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
 
a larger power must regulate the system.

that's exactly what this whole thing is about

only that the power is not authoritarian but rather competitivity.


Lets lift the kade pay cap see how that goes first. Competitiveness will sort it out or will we see 30k pay or higher. If their is a max if fake money people will hit it.

A cap (authroitarian) set at a max like the kade pay provides a firm control it can't easily be manipulated. Yes people offer tops often don't pay them do giveaways but probably rigged. No matter how smart the system someone will find away to control and cheat it.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.

Which ever way the wind blows...
[Dec 12, 2017 6:06:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Sagacious

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 6, 2006
Posts: 4797
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
The problem is that it's been fairly well established that you're not interested in believing anything the rest of us say, and we all think you're wrong.

----------------------------------------
Cerulean & Meridian - Icemeister
Emerald & Obsidian - incognito!
#TeamPurple
[Dec 12, 2017 6:39:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 23162
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Dantesk wrote: 
Thanks for contributing nothing with that last post Faulkston.

To you perhaps, nothing was added when people correct your inaccurate statements.

Dantesk wrote: 
Also I welcome you to say where is my straw man argument.

Even though that would not be focusing on the game design proposal subject?

I already wrote about when you stated that anyone who didn't believe the economy was in a terrible shape was a moron. Because it's really easy to argue a point that you have framed by yourself while no one has taken that position in this discussion.

Dantesk wrote: 
This discussion is not about the devs and what you're doing (for someone that seems to like argumentation so much and the fancy names we give the different tactics) is called a "Red Herring", where you deviate the attention from the original argument.

That's what you are doing by continuing to say others have added nothing. But perhaps deviating the attention from the original argument is not something you're really intending to do.
----------------------------------------
Avatar by Carribean
[Dec 12, 2017 6:50:41 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Is that there's nothing to agree with you on.

You said I got the cause wrong and it's low activity that bring dubs up and not the other way around, I already said that no matter the reason for the dubs going up, the fact that they go up IS a problem.

You said this would hurt the devs' revenue and I already argumented why I don't think that's true. Even devonin that has been against my proposition for the whole thread said recently that people buy dubs because it's easier, not because they're forced to.

What else is there against my proposition? It's not on the anti-list either nor does it goes against the game philosophy in any way (actually it basically is the game philosophy).

So I try and make my point clearer to you and you just start commenting about my persona or saying I go around the same thing. Obviously I go around circles since you keep repeating the same arguments that I have already explained why they're simply not true. Minting dubs will not affect negatively the market and it won't affect negatively the devs profit. You can refute that with arguments if you want. Find me a person that is forced to buy dubs and that dosen't do it for the easyness. Find me one person that is going to sell dubs at a loss to crash the market.

Seriously, it's not that hard of a concept to grasp, stability of the currency will lead to a more stable market, a more stable market will lead to a more enjoyable game.

WIN WIN situation.

And again, you're free to refute my arguments, and I'm free to refute yours.
Just don't repeat the same over and over because I've already addressed those things. If you have a valid argument on how this would affect negatively the economy or the devs profit, I want to hear it.

and one last time:
Minting dubs DOES NOT affect the devs profit. People buy dubs because of the easyness, not because they're forced too.
Minting dubs DOES NOT affect the economy negatively, a stable currncy is one of the most basic things needed to have a stable and growing economy.

Other propositions are obviously welcome.


And yes, I know that I'm repeating the same, but if you say A, and I say A it's not true because of B, you have to tell me why B is not true, not say A again.

Nothing to add to this.


 
Lets lift the kade pay cap see how that goes first. Competitiveness will sort it out or will we see 30k pay or higher. If their is a max if fake money people will hit it. A cap (authroitarian) set at a max like the kade pay provides a firm control it can't easily be manipulated. Yes people offer tops often don't pay them do giveaways but probably rigged. No matter how smart the system someone will find away to control and cheat it.

Filthyjake the thing about cades is that there's a top on the amount you can pay but not a top on the amount of ships you can fill, so the competitivity factor is still there.

Don't really see what it has to do with the theme of this thread though.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 7:22:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 9, 2006
Posts: 2253
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Dantesk wrote: 
 
your idea has been shut down so many times

quote one


Gladly. The one you've conveniently ignored.

Sid wrote: 
As for my proof that your idea won't work, let's look at Obsidian.

Doubloons have been under 3k per doubloon for the past month or two. Despite this, the server has been steadily declining in population since the initial wave of new players from the steam release. Doubloons are currently at 2.6k. If that isn't enough to keep new players around, your proposed solution of 3-5k per doubloon definitely won't.


The most active ocean DOES have a stable economy. It has doubloon prices at nearly half of what your idea would "stabilize"* the doubloons at and it's still slowly losing players.

*I put this in quotes because your idea has so many other issues that I don't think it would "stabilize" anything. It would do nothing other than fix doubloon prices to whatever it costs to produce a doubloon in game.

----------------------------------------
Sid on Obsidian

Striderrs everywhere else
[Dec 12, 2017 7:46:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I even helpfully provided a giant list of reasons why the population is declining that has nothing to do with the state of the game economy, but he disagreed with all of those too.
[Dec 12, 2017 8:56:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Again, this is to fix the economic problem of having a volatile currency. In my mind having an stable economy would help the activity but I principaly care about the stability and economy, not the activity of players itself.

So yes, people might be leaving the game for other reasons, dosen't change the fact that it would be nice for those that don't leave to have a playable game, a stable currency and a prosperous economy.

I admit that without tackling the activity problem we'll end up in the same spot, as no matter how stable the currency is, if there's no one to trade with there's not going to have a working economy. But I also strongly believe that without tackling the currency problem you can't expect the economy to be well headed, and without that the game becomes un-playable and frustrating. It might not be the MAIN reason but I strongly believe it is one of the main factors that make the activity go down in every server since it's inception.

But again, this discussion isn't about how to solve the activity problem but rather the currency problem (I only mentioned the activity problem because I believe they're related).


And about the Obsidian doing well, I did say every ocean does well when it's new, activity starts going down steadily after that, until it gets unplayable (check the graphs I posted about the activity on the last 10 years and 2 years).
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 9:05:23 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
I did say every ocean does well when it's new, activity starts going down steadily after that, until it gets unplayable

Yes, and we're telling you that the volatility of the economy is like....the very least among the reasons why that statement is true.

Among other things, the economy has been perfectly stable always: Dubloons cost 25 cents each. There's only volatility among players attempted to play for free, which were not actually intended behavior when the dubloon model was introduced.

I'm all for ways to make it -easier- to play -more- for free, but fixing the poe price of dubloons at substantially higher than it is on the one high-activity ocean doesn't actually fix that. It makes it worse.

Like, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a general trend, not counting spikes at the peak of box times, Obsidian "Started off doing really well" and now "Activity is starting to go down steadily" while the poe price of dubs basically HAS been fixed at ~2600-3100.

How do you not see that as a counterargument to your position?
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Devonin at Dec 12, 2017 9:10:18 PM]
[Dec 12, 2017 9:08:18 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
*I put this in quotes because your idea has so many other issues that I don't think it would "stabilize" anything. It would do nothing other than fix doubloon prices to whatever it costs to produce a doubloon in game.


I didn't see that little text you put in the end

If you don't see the correlation between a "fixed doubloon price" and a stable economy you might just not understand how monetary policies work.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 9:08:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
fixing the poe price of dubloons at substantially higher than it is on the one high-activity ocean doesn't actually fix that. It makes it worse.


I also already addressed this dude, the price wouldn't go up to the price of production. No one is going to take the time to produce dubs if it's cheaper to get them from the exchange. People would only produce dubs for profit.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 9:10:50 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
 
fixing the poe price of dubloons at substantially higher than it is on the one high-activity ocean doesn't actually fix that. It makes it worse.


I also already addressed this dude, the price wouldn't go up to the price of production. No one is going to take the time to produce dubs if it's cheaper to get them from the exchange. People would only produce dubs for profit.


That you don't understand that this creates both a floor and ceiling, not just a ceiling belies your claims of understanding the economics.

If a minted dub reliably cost 5k, you couldn't likely get away with charging 7k or 8k. You might get away with charging 5500-6000 for the convenience of instant delivery, but if the choice is between a 5k dub you have to craft in a shop over time with gathered resources, or a 5k dub you can get instantly, why do you ever choose to craft one?

And as for why this creates a floor as well as a ceiling: If the point at which you opt to mint a dub instead of buy one is at 5k, the very monopoly you claim you're trying to fight with offering crafted dubs says "Well I will just buy up every single dubloon that appears below 5k, and sell them for 4999" which pulls the floor up to the same place as the ceiling.
[Dec 12, 2017 9:13:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Like, correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a general trend, not counting spikes at the peak of box times, Obsidian "Started off doing really well" and now "Activity is starting to go down steadily" while the poe price of dubs basically HAS been fixed at ~2600-3100. How do you not see that as a counterargument to your position?


I see you added that on the edit.
Well honestly we'll have to wait and see how Obsidian goes.
Again, this propostition is for Classic YPP and not for Obsidian anyway. I don't play that game and don't intend to, so why would I be proposing changes to it?
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 12, 2017 9:16:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Again this is based on the assumption the minted dubs would be 5k, we cannot estimate how much they would really cost as we don't know how much labor it would take to mint one, and the labor paid is decided by the shoppe owners, not fixed.
What we do know is that paying someone to forage a dub gold nugget is around 2k to 3k, so that is the floor we have to consider. Labor and taxes would sum up to 1-2k. When I said 5k I thought of it as the maximum it would cost, not the price it would really be.

So don't take the 5k as the fixed price, it was only an example.


edit: dub gold nugget
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Dec 12, 2017 9:21:07 PM]
[Dec 12, 2017 9:20:09 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 1062
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
 
Lets lift the kade pay cap see how that goes first. Competitiveness will sort it out or will we see 30k pay or higher. If their is a max if fake money people will hit it. A cap (authroitarian) set at a max like the kade pay provides a firm control it can't easily be manipulated. Yes people offer tops often don't pay them do giveaways but probably rigged. No matter how smart the system someone will find away to control and cheat it.


Filthyjake the thing about cades is that there's a top on the amount you can pay but not a top on the amount of ships you can fill, so the competitivity factor is still there.

Don't really see what it has to do with the theme of this thread though.


Referencing a price cap through the game not competition as your refered to as authoritarian. Yes there is no limit on ship nor is there a limit on dubs you can buy.

Best of luck with your idea. Its not going to work if you could make dubs with gold the price of Gold goes up....the value of the IM's go up.... Sword prices then goe up.... why make balls when I can make dubs..... The game already has 3 currencies Poe that becomes Dubs and Rouge Marks.... Now you want to add gold as a form of currency and dismiss anyone who disagrees with you.

 
Dantesk wrote:

 
 
your idea has been shut down so many times


quote one


Gladly. The one you've conveniently ignored.


Check previous 10 pages find favorite and insert it here.

Nek0jin Said on page 2

 
You keep talking about how this would be good for the players and the market. How would it be good for Grey Havens? I don't see any real controlling method here; it just becomes a way to get an unlimited supply of Dubs into the game without anyone paying for it.

The whole point of the Dubs system is self-correcting. When the dub price goes up, it becomes an incentive for people to spend money for selling dubs. The higher the price, the stronger the incentive. When it goes down, the reverse is true - it becomes a disincentive to spend money on them, and buy them with PoE instead. Aside from a small "seeding" at the start of a new ocean, all Dubs in the system come from people spending real money on the game (supporting the Developers). People spending dubs is "cashing out" this money, turning it into purely legitimately earned cash for the Developers*. Adding more Dubs through an in-game system breaks this mechanic.

Inflation is not always a bad thing; neither is deflation. But either without controls or limits is destructive. What you're presenting fundamentally results in deflation without limit.


Which is a good argument the game NEEDS paying players. The argument is sound and proven when you see boxes come out people get more for their money so they spend more. Who would buy dubs that could be so easily earned in game. Lets say 1k poe I go on a 4 hour elite pillage get 60 dubs. That's enough for my monthly desires. No need to spend real cash.

The counter argument to this was it would draw more players so there would be more spending real money.... Or could it cause more people foraging and producing dubs at IM's and then the price of Dubs drops even more and become less valuable. Dubs are maintaining around 3k with the base of players we have. Its ridiculous that the dub delivery fee is higher then a purchase price but that's a different topic.

I don't think a way to make dubs in game is realistic or a good idea as you can already go get gold sell it buy dubs with the poe. 1 gold nuget is roughly 1 dub now. Your process is just using a hammer instead of the bank.

I think creating a max value for them would fix those tampering (hording or profiting) with the market and create some stabilization when populations decline. That said I don't think its wrong to hord or profit off dubs, I do think it hurts those who come in new for the "free to play" to find out its not possible to really enjoy the game with out lots of time or real money.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans (Obsidian Primary)
Filthyjake6145 (discord)

Who would have ever thought there would be a more worthless familiar then the Krackling's? But now we have owls that are farm raised.

Which ever way the wind blows...
[Dec 12, 2017 9:29:51 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
So don't take the 5k as the fixed price, it was only an example.


Um...the cost to mint a dub will be whatever value GH decides it will cost to mint a dub based on their choice of how much labour and which materials they take.

But, this is YOUR suggestion, so it is incumbent on YOU to propose how you think it should work. You used the 5k figure, so we use the 5k figure. If you don't think 5k is a reasonable rate, why'd you suggest it? If you're just making up arbitrary number choices without thinking about the consequences of the implementation if it aligned with that choice, what are we even discussing?

And anywhere the price of dubs is below 5k (everywhere still active with a reasonable player base) that's an increase which makes the economy MORE difficult for new players to interact with, making them less likely to stay around.
[Dec 12, 2017 9:36:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
if you could make dubs with gold the price of Gold goes up....the value of the IM's go up.... Sword prices then goe up.... why make balls when I can make dubs.....

The amount of poe paid to forage the gold might go up, but people arent going to pay more for forage than what they would get from selling the minted dubs. Just like I dont pay mpre for labor than what I can afford to make profit. You really understimate the ability of players to estimate costs and benefits.


 
Lets say 1k poe I go on a 4 hour elite pillage get 60 dubs. That's enough for my monthly desires. No need to spend real cash. 

That IS my point, people with loads of por can already get the dubs without putting real money. The difference would be people wpuld add offer to dubs when minting them with poe and labor instead of adding demand with that same poe.


 
Its ridiculous that the dub delivery fee is higher then a purchase price but that's a different topic.


I agree, as I posted on the original post, it would be way easier to have dynamic deliver costs based on the value of dubs.

 
I don't think a way to make dubs in game is realistic or a good idea as you can already go get gold sell it buy dubs with the poe. 1 gold nuget is roughly 1 dub now. Your process is just using a hammer instead of the bank.


Again, the difference is one creates offer when the demand goes to high and the other only adds demand.


 
That said I don't think its wrong to hord or profit off dubs, I do think it hurts those who come in new for the "free to play" to find out its not possible to really enjoy the game with out lots of time or real money.


Well we agree on that.



And Devonin I ised that figure because I estimate the max value to create a dub would be that, the minimum would be around the price you'd get doing all the labor yourself.
So the theoretical "floor" and the "roof" wouldn't be 500 poe apart, competitivness would decide the price instead of how many people buy dubs with real money.
Gold value chamges around the map, labor also varies around the map, so do taxes...
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 13, 2017 8:16:17 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

Member's Avatar


Joined: Sep 7, 2014
Posts: 242
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Thanks for continuing to add nothing to this thread, Dantesk. It's really helpful when trying to come up with good ideas.

Honestly, I suggest just forgetting about this thread, guys. Nothing is happening other than everyone getting upset at Dantesk because he can't see anything but his exact idea, and wont hear anything that doesn't go along with that idea.
----------------------------------------
Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Dec 13, 2017 8:52:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
And Devonin I ised that figure because I estimate the max value to create a dub would be that, the minimum would be around the price you'd get doing all the labor yourself.


Wait...are you thinking that if the cost was say...3k in materials and 2k in labour, that if you did the labour yourself, you ought to think of that dub as having cost 3k to make? Do you...not know what an opportunity cost is?
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Devonin at Dec 13, 2017 10:28:19 AM]
[Dec 13, 2017 10:27:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

Member's Avatar


Joined: Mar 2, 2010
Posts: 254
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

This has been my least favorite thread to read probably ever.
----------------------------------------
-Porglit on Emerald
-Shadetemplar on Obsidian
[Dec 13, 2017 11:02:32 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
This has been my least favorite thread to read probably ever.


Ironic that I should question whether he knows what an opportunity cost is, in a thread where awareness of opportunity costs should have made us all stop posting days ago.
[Dec 13, 2017 12:29:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Strider399

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 9, 2006
Posts: 2253
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
 
This has been my least favorite thread to read probably ever.


Ironic that I should question whether he knows what an opportunity cost is, in a thread where awareness of opportunity costs should have made us all stop posting days ago.


At this point I think he's actually just trolling us.
----------------------------------------
Sid on Obsidian

Striderrs everywhere else
[Dec 13, 2017 12:40:08 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Let's just agree to disagree then and let this game die once and for all.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Dec 13, 2017 2:34:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Deal, you might as well leave now then <_<
[Dec 13, 2017 5:02:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Posts: 114   Pages: 4   [ First Page | Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 | Last Page]
[Show Printable Version of Thread] [Post new Thread]

Puzzle Pirates™ © 2001-2016 Grey Havens, LLC All Rights Reserved.   Terms · Privacy · Affiliates