• Play
  • About
  • News
  • Forums
  • Yppedia
  • Help
Welcome Guest   | Login
  Index  | Recent Threads  | Register  | Search  | Help  | RSS feeds  | View Unanswered Threads  
  Search  


Quick Go »
Thread Status: Normal
Total posts in this thread: 114
Posts: 114   Pages: 4   [ First Page | 1 2 3 4 | Next Page | Last Page]
[Add To My Favorites] [Watch this Thread] [Post new Thread]
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 6696 times and has 113 replies Next Thread
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

There's a better phrased explanation down below

I've had many ideas regarding how to save Meridian and Emerald.
I once proposed the deliver cost of ships and other good to fluctuate with dubs rather than being fixed, which would allow people to keep buying from shoppes when dubs hit the roof (which they have already, 14k/24k on Meridian as we speak).
That could benefit shoppes and the general economy but wouldnt really fix the problem itself.
I also thought we could create an inter-ocean route (not emrging the oceans, just a route which would "teleport" you form one ocean to the other, some changes would be needed for it to work, maybe like on the first days were money was harder to move, had to be buried or deposited on a ship to move it around. This would work as arbitrage, bringing the prices of both oceans closer together.

My last and probably best idea is quite simple: dubs are made of gold, (almost) everything in the game is built by players, why can't dubs be made by players too?
A player with gold, an IM and labour could produce dubs, this would make the price of dubs more real as it wouldn't depend 100% on people buying with real money (no new money, no new dubs, price skyrockets killing the oceans).
This could somehow re-integrate banks and make them useful again, by allowing merchants to sell their self-made dubs exclusively to the banks, which would then inject them into the doublon exchange to try to regulate it somehow (that last part isn't a must but I think it would be nice).

What do you think? How would you try to make the game better (dub-wise) without killing the Devs profit (from dubs). I believe that more players will buy more dubs, even if they're cheaper (versus poe) and that this would stabilize a bit the economy which would encourage new players to stay and old players to return.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 7:58:42 PM]
[Oct 15, 2017 3:08:04 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 8, 2004
Posts: 563
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
(no new money, no new dubs, price skyrockets killing the oceans).

I think you've got the cause-and-effect backwards there. The oceans were dying, and people were trading in their PoE (and liquidating ships and other non-transportable items) to Dubs so that they could take their wealth to a more active ocean.

People continued to buy Dubs, because that was portable currency. They just stopped selling it in a market that was functionally dead. As the demand for Dubs went up (liquidation/transportation) and the supply went down (people stopped selling them in a dead ocean), the price went up. Pretty basic economics.
[Oct 15, 2017 3:13:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

by money I mean dollars, if there's no one buying dubs with money then there's no dubs on the ocean, if the offer goes down the price goes up
there's many reasons for people not buying dubs with dollars but basically it can be resumed to: if the game is good and fun, if the economy is stable, people will buy dubs, if the game is dead, no one to play with and nothing to buy, people wont buy dubs.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Oct 15, 2017 3:18:20 PM]
[Oct 15, 2017 3:16:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 23151
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Dantesk wrote: 
My last and probably best idea is quite simple: dubs are made of gold, (almost) everything in the game is built by players, why can't dubs be made by players too?

Dantesk wrote: 
without killing the Devs profit (from dubs).

That's why doubloons shouldn't be able to be made by players in game, not without real money being paid to the Developers. Without those payments, the Developers can't in turn pay for the server operating costs and develop new features, let alone make any profit.

Player time spent in game to gain PoE (from PoE fountains), does not give real money to the Developers. Quite the opposite in fact, the servers cost money to operate. Thus PoE shouldn't be able to create micropayment currency (doubloons).
----------------------------------------
Avatar by Carribean
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Faulkston at Oct 15, 2017 11:27:41 PM]
[Oct 15, 2017 11:25:39 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

A compelling way to fairly compensate players on 'not obsidian' to move to obsidian without completely screwing over the economy of obsidian and then just closing the rest of the servers is far and away a better plan for the -company- than trying to "Save" the non-obsidian oceans.

The problem you have is "barely anybody playing" not anything to do with the price of dubs as a thing. Dubs on Obsidian are fine. The problem here isn't with dubs.
[Oct 16, 2017 12:54:50 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 977
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
A compelling way to fairly compensate players on 'not obsidian' to move to obsidian without completely screwing over the economy of obsidian and then just closing the rest of the servers is far and away a better plan for the -company- than trying to "Save" the non-obsidian oceans.

The problem you have is "barely anybody playing" not anything to do with the price of dubs as a thing. Dubs on Obsidian are fine. The problem here isn't with dubs.


Since dubs have gone up in price 500-800 poe since the gold box release there is a noticeable decline in players.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
DUB FREE Ocean (Cerulean) Dub Scribe 42 dubs NO delivery FEES
Subscribe for $49.95 a year
You can play free, with limited access. (just like no dubs)
[Oct 16, 2017 3:55:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 5, 2015
Posts: 354
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Filthyjake wrote: 
Since dubs have gone up in price 500-800 poe since the gold box release there is a noticeable decline in players.


----------------------------------------
Jjc on Emerald
Jc on Obsidian (regrettably)
My Kraken bombing guide
CI booty division stats
[Oct 16, 2017 4:29:08 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 977
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Filthyjake wrote: 
Since dubs have gone up in price 500-800 poe since the gold box release there is a noticeable decline in players.



I guess we can simply just assume people recognize the game is the same game they left, since not a lot has changed other then a sun or moon next to the name, and pvp added.

Or we can look at the other oceans

Dub oceans
Meridian Highest dub price lowest number of players
Emerald When I joined dubs were 2k players averaged 400 most days now 200 and dubs are 3.5kish

If they came back to realize it was the same game how come the decline took 3 weeks and just happened to be as dubs climbed.

We can ignore the problem and pretend we don't know what it is or even blame poker xP. The higher the dub price the higher the barrier to entry into much of the game. When Dubs go up 500 poe

Officer Badge goes up 4k
Parlor Badge goes up 2k
Basic Labor Badge goes up 2.5k yet wages normally remain steady
Falchion Delivery goes up 5k
Black Jack Delivery goes up 4k

So you simply want to have weapons and be able to play all the games a 500 poe increase in dubs affects the new players need for free to play 17.5k Not a huge amount for someone who can get on elite pillages but for some one with no stats learning skills that is likely 4-5 hours of play just to cover the increase. Not to mention the base price @3k (168k).

So to enter the game with "basics listed above"
56 dubs @ 3k = 168k
56 dubs @ 3.5k= 196k
56 dubs @ 4k = 224k

So yes I feel the math can show the barrier to entry as the new player can likely get on a pillage that will pay 3-4k /hour. For those with skills and stats we can earn double that fairly easy. But then we go back to the 2-300 players that already exist. We haven't even touched on the desire to buy the first ship, and how impossible it can feel to make that poe.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
DUB FREE Ocean (Cerulean) Dub Scribe 42 dubs NO delivery FEES
Subscribe for $49.95 a year
You can play free, with limited access. (just like no dubs)
[Oct 16, 2017 5:11:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



Joined: Feb 6, 2005
Posts: 91
Status: Offline

Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
Since dubs have gone up in price 500-800 poe since the gold box release there is a noticeable decline in players.


The decline may be 'noticeable', but it's actually fairly consistent over time and does not clearly correlate with the uptick in the price of dubs over the last week.



And before you reach for the increasing price of dubs to explain the larger drop over the last week... you have to explain the larger increase over the week previous to that, even in the face of dubs increasing in price.
[Oct 16, 2017 9:30:35 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Jcmorgan6

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 5, 2015
Posts: 354
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

jdl1963 wrote: 
Filthyjake wrote: 
Since dubs have gone up in price 500-800 poe since the gold box release there is a noticeable decline in players.


The decline may be 'noticeable', but it's actually fairly consistent over time and does not clearly correlate with the uptick in the price of dubs over the last week.



And before you reach for the increasing price of dubs to explain the larger drop over the last week... you have to explain the larger increase over the week previous to that, even in the face of dubs increasing in price.


Exactly, not to mention doubloon prices have gone down on Emerald since Obsidian was launched (around 500 PoE) despite it having less than half as many players as it did.

Filthyjake wrote: 
I guess we can simply just assume people recognize the game is the same game they left, since not a lot has changed other then a sun or moon next to the name, and pvp added.


That sounds far more logical, combined with the effect the steam release had wearing off a little.
----------------------------------------
Jjc on Emerald
Jc on Obsidian (regrettably)
My Kraken bombing guide
CI booty division stats
[Oct 16, 2017 9:54:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 977
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
The decline may be 'noticeable', but it's actually fairly consistent over time and does not clearly correlate with the uptick in the price of dubs over the last week.


While I have looked at this as well as to see the decline, it does track log ins not actively playing. If i log in and out in 15 minutes it will collect me as a player correct? I have been on ships where we wait and wait and then move to a new smaller ship over the past week. This is new but time will tell.
----------------------------------------
Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
DUB FREE Ocean (Cerulean) Dub Scribe 42 dubs NO delivery FEES
Subscribe for $49.95 a year
You can play free, with limited access. (just like no dubs)
[Oct 16, 2017 10:14:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



Joined: Feb 6, 2005
Posts: 91
Status: Offline

Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
While I have looked at this as well as to see the decline, it does track log ins not actively playing. If i log in and out in 15 minutes it will collect me as a player correct?


Ask the Ringers, it appears to based on their data. (http://www.puzzlepirates.com/status.xhtml) The wording implies (at least to me) that it's players logged in, not player logins.

 
I have been on ships where we wait and wait and then move to a new smaller ship over the past week. This is new but time will tell.


I've been on plenty of big ship pillages over the last week. So, generalizing from your individual experience and hearsay may or may not reflect reality.

 
Filthyjake wrote: 
I guess we can simply just assume people recognize the game is the same game they left, since not a lot has changed other then a sun or moon next to the name, and pvp added.


That sounds far more logical, combined with the effect the steam release had wearing off a little.


That, and returnees and people moving over from other oceans discovering how sharply limited gameplay on Obsidian is compared to other oceans. No blockades, no trading posts, limited commodities markets, too many stalls in too small an area chasing after a limited player pool, etc... etc... The Haven's theory of "but PVP!" is all but certainly insufficient to hold large numbers of players in the face of these and other problems. (The largest of which is, as Jake correctly point out, it's still pretty much the same fourteen year old game...)
[Oct 16, 2017 10:36:19 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I think you got carried away mates

More active players means more profit for the Devs
making dubs with gold would only be a way to keep dub prices more constant (based on cost of gold, labor and the cost of owning an IM, basically taxes)

If the game is enjoyable and the price of dubs is more constant (not meaning it won't fluctuate, just meaning it will be less volatile) it would incentivate shoppe owners to produce for long term, lowering prices and averaging costs. This would make the game more active/fun for new players (IMO) and more active and happy players means more dubs are bought.
Thinking low dubs would kill devs profit is turning our back on the first years of ypp when dubs were low and the community was huge.
Low dubs kill the game ONLY if prices remain high (which wouldn't make sense, usually prices go down as dubs go high as there're less players to sell in the marketplace and less players buying dubs, less demand for goods, less offer for dubs.

Also, the fact that people would be able to forge dubs (and don't forget the banks re-integration part I mentioned, not mandatory but I think it would close the deal very well) dosen't mean EVERYONE will forge their own dubs and it won't mean everyone willl even have the CAPITAL or INCENTIVE to do it on their own. As we've seen, people tend to buy things from other players/shoppes rather than make it themselves because of the cost/benefit and the fact that we're lazy and just want to have fun.

This whole idea is just a way to make the free market economy of the game more healthy, as not everyone know they're playing in a free market game but everyone is influenced by it.

I believe this would bring the prices of goods down and the price of unique items up (LE ships, fams, etc.), as they would be rarer compared to things you can order from shoppes. This would mean that even if dubs cost less, they would have more value as they're the only way to deliver things but mostly because of the LE rewards that come when buying them.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Oct 17, 2017 11:10:03 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Feb 8, 2004
Posts: 563
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

You keep talking about how this would be good for the players and the market. How would it be good for Grey Havens? I don't see any real controlling method here; it just becomes a way to get an unlimited supply of Dubs into the game without anyone paying for it.

The whole point of the Dubs system is self-correcting. When the dub price goes up, it becomes an incentive for people to spend money for selling dubs. The higher the price, the stronger the incentive. When it goes down, the reverse is true - it becomes a disincentive to spend money on them, and buy them with PoE instead. Aside from a small "seeding" at the start of a new ocean, all Dubs in the system come from people spending real money on the game (supporting the Developers). People spending dubs is "cashing out" this money, turning it into purely legitimately earned cash for the Developers*. Adding more Dubs through an in-game system breaks this mechanic.

Inflation is not always a bad thing; neither is deflation. But either without controls or limits is destructive. What you're presenting fundamentally results in deflation without limit.

* Someone who spent $100 on Dubs and didn't spend them would have a legitimate claim and request for a refund. While GH can refuse this per the ToS, and most people won't sue over the loss, but they could very well lose lawsuits that resulted.
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nek0jin at Oct 17, 2017 12:26:10 PM]
[Oct 17, 2017 12:25:48 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Well I did say that what's good for the players is good for the devs since more players will buy more dubs, no matter the price against PoE

Also the supply wouldn't be unlimited as gold is already rare (and labor on the dead oceans), it would just regulate the price of dubs without a direct intervention in the market.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Oct 17, 2017 1:19:14 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

I mean, gold is around 3k, if 1 unit of gold + labor + taxes can make 1 dub, then the dub made from gold and labor would be worth more than 3k, making it profitable only if dubs go over that value. When dubs go over that value the ocean is pretty much dead already.
I don't think this would harm the game but the opposite
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Oct 17, 2017 1:21:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Dubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Alright I'm gonna post this again here as they blocked the other, better formulated, thread (https://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread;jsessionid=3dm5esfqi9xm1?thread=207720)

Organic Doubloon Market Regulation



I have an idea that could help the game we love grow without it hurting the devs revenue. We all know how dubs can ruin this game for some players, as a free market economy based game, one should be able to win enough money with the basic labor (land lubber's shoppe jobs and pillies) to buy basic stuff (weapons, ships, clothes).

With the current dub prices (over 10k in Meridian, near 4k on Emerald, other oceans absolutely dead), it is practically impossible for a greenie to be able to afford these basic commodities. They don't enjoy the game at first glance, think it's a pay-to-win game and quit to never come back.

What I propose to regulate these wild dubs without hurting the market, nor the devs, is to implement a way to create dubs without buying them (scarcity of players make the offer of dubs go down, remaining players still needing to buy these bring the price up). Not to mention the manipulation of the price by some big fishes...
If we enable a way to peg the price of dubs to a rare commodity like gold (which makes total sense) we would have stable dubs. This would be really easy by enabling players to create dubs with gold using labor on an Iron Monger.

This way dub prices are regulated without a direct intervention of devs on the market. When dubs go to ridiculous prices, players will buy gold, use some labor and produce doubloons to sell on the market, thus creating an offer to sell at a higher price than gold.

Considering gold is found foraging, the cost of paying foragers to find it (2k-3k) and the scarcity of this commodity, we can see how it's the ideal meter to value things.
The cost of owning a shoppe (taxes) and paying for labor adds to the final cost of producing dubs (that I estimate would end up being 4-5k per dub).

No sane player would never create dubs to sell at a loss, so this would be a last resource and not a way of making a living on these seas.
Gold would keep on being used to create clothes or other goods that make more profit, but with stable dubs, the market would flourish as shoppe owners can effectively calculate costs and buyers can afford prices.

Last but not least, Devs would benefit from this as a good market incentivates new players to stay, as well as old players, and we all know that the more players there are, the more will be buying dubs, specially if it is worth to use them instead of waiting for them to appreciate, as the price should remain around the same place.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 2 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 11:00:43 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 7:43:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Faulkston wrote: 
Player time spent in game to gain PoE (from PoE fountains), does not give real money to the Developers. Quite the opposite in fact, the servers cost money to operate. Thus PoE shouldn't be able to create micropayment currency (doubloons).


But PoE already has the ability to buy Dubs, there's a market for that, the problem is the price of dubs make the game unplayable and THAT is what costs the Developers money (mantaining a game no one but a few rich guys can play).

I'm not saying to take out the ability to buy dubs with money, I'm suggesting a way of regulating the market without direct intervention, this would help the game grow and that would help the developers.
I love this game, why would I want to see it dead?
It's a free market economy based game and I'm suggesting the most free market economic solution I can imagine (no direct intervention of devs on Doubloon Exchange)

Everything in the game is made by the players (except trinket/chart/misc), why should dubs be different? It makes no sense that gold isn't worth anything more than what it can make on clothes and paint when DOUBLOONS ARE MADE OF GOLD.

Also what I propose would also create a higher demand on dubs as labor badges would actually be worth something. After all, as Adam Smith said, labor is the real measure of value. How can the game work if labor is not rewarded and the currency is volatile and manipulable?

I can't imagine any other way to keep this game afloat, even Obsidian will encounter the same problems once the rich guys have enough to form a monopoly and manipulate dubs at will. It's really not that hard, and that DOES COST THE DEVELOPERS MONEY.

edit: typos as always, I should really double read these things before posting them.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 7:57:17 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 7:55:06 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 23151
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

Dantesk wrote: 
But PoE already has the ability to buy Dubs

There is the distinction. Buy not make. Your proposal is for something spawned in-game to be used to create doubloons, without real money being paid to Grey Havens.

Dantesk wrote: 
the problem is the price of dubs make the game unplayable

Meaning without spending real money to purchase doubloons, rather than use PoE to buy them?

The real money price of doubloons has remained ~US$0.19 to ~US$0.25. I realize there is a distinction between being able or willing to pay real money towards doubloons, or being rich enough in in-game currency to purchase doubloons.

Dantesk wrote: 
Everything in the game is made by the players (except trinket/chart/misc), why should dubs be different?

Because doubloons are the micropayment system of the game. Doubloons get "made" by Grey Havens on behalf of players when the company is paid with real money.

Dantesk wrote: 
It makes no sense that gold isn't worth anything more than what it can make on clothes and paint when DOUBLOONS ARE MADE OF GOLD.

Historically in the real world, doubloons were made of gold. Game-wise, they don't have to be. The doubloon name is merely a label for the micropayment unit. Yes, that would be a real world intrusion into the in-game universe.

Dantesk wrote: 
Also what I propose would also create a higher demand on dubs as labor badges would actually be worth something. After all, as Adam Smith said, labor is the real measure of value. How can the game work if labor is not rewarded and the currency is volatile and manipulable?

Would it be good game-wise to implement a feature leading to literal gold farming?


Perhaps if the game incorporated advertising within it i.e. advertisers paid Grey Havens to show their ads, then gold ore farming to create micropayment units might work business-wise. Advertisers could have guaranteed viewers i.e. players while gold ore farming or whatever. Now it's a different matter if viewing the advertisements created customers for the advertised products and services. And the impact of advertising blocking software is being ignored.
----------------------------------------
Avatar by Carribean
[Nov 22, 2017 8:42:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
the problem is the price of dubs make the game unplayable
So spend 25 cents each to buy dubs and sell them instantly at this grossly hyperinflated price, giving yourself tons of poe, and putting more dubs into the market. If some other people do that too, the increase in dubs in the economy will push the price down, and then you too can buy dubs for less than you sold them for, have dubs and poe and win.

 
It's a free market economy based game and I'm suggesting the most free market economic solution I can imagine (no direct intervention of devs on Doubloon Exchange)
You have a weird definition of no direct intervention. Do you think if the government of your country just said "Here free market, have the plates we use to print currency so you can print your own currency" that wouldn't count as intervention in the market?

No intervention means no intervention. The most free market exchange solution is what we have: Dubs sell and buy at whatever the market determines is the fair price.

 
Also what I propose would also create a higher demand on dubs as labor badges would actually be worth something. After all, as Adam Smith said, labor is the real measure of value. How can the game work if labor is not rewarded and the currency is volatile and manipulable?


Labor is plenty valuable. On Obsidian you make WAAAY more in poe with a labor badge even if you're only passable at one or two puzzles than it costs to get one. Labor is how every good comes to market. Labor badges are absolutely worth something. But if you're right, and it creates a higher demand for dubs, if it creates more demand for dubs than it supplies you have made the problem WORSE not better.

 
It's really not that hard, and that DOES COST THE DEVELOPERS MONEY.
Currently, no matter how YOU got your dubloon, that dubloon entered the economy by somebody giving the company real money. Your solution means dubs entering the game without somebody giving them real money. How does that not cost them money?

 
I can't imagine any other way to keep this game afloat


Close every server but Obsidian, find the least impacting way to compensate people who have been active in the last 60 days on the closing servers, probably by giving them a small monthly stipend of dubloons based generally on their net worth in goods on the closed servers, maybe throw around some renames and familiars.
[Nov 22, 2017 8:53:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

to Faulkston:

Selling gold for real money is against the rules
I guess every big game has people that do it anyway, but since the game is big devs still get revenue.
It's like wanting to keep the game small so they can control it better, even though they could be making more money.

And yes, I meant the game is unplayable without buying dubs with real money. I mean, it's ok to buy dubs from time to time but who is going to buy dubs constantly to play a game where everything can be bought with in-game currency and that no one plays? To show off to the other 50, 100, 200 online players?
The point of a game is to be fun to play. You're suggesting this game should be pay-to-play when the attractiveness of the game is that you can get EVERYTHING without paying with real money. Buying dubs with real money is a gift some people give to themselves, either to buy stuff they want but dont want to work for, or to get a starting capital to trade or do whatever they want. On a healthy game / community it's something people do sporadicly when they can, and not something they're forced to do to be able to enjoy the game.

If they want the game to stay alive dubs need to be regulated in some way, and I think this is the best way.

If doubloons are created by players on IMs, wouldn't it be extremely easy for devs to know who is "gold farming"? As easy as track where the gold goes/is and what players are trading dubs for nothing.

Also there's not really a distinction in buying and making dubs, I can make other things and sell it for dubs, it's basically the same thing with extra steps.

Lastly, as I mentioned, dubs wouldn't be always profitable to be made, only when prices go above a certain threshold. That threshold is very high and when it's reached the ocean is un-playable.

You know, I have in-game money, dosen't really change much to me, it's just sad to see this game die slowly every year and the devs trying to fix things that are not the real issue.
I used to play on hunter, I used to play on Jade, I play on Meridian, do you have any idea how frustrating this game gets? All my in game friends stopped playing, even my "enemies" stopped playing. There's noa ctivity whatsoever, even cades have become redundant (as governors don't have anyone to tax since shoppes aren't making money).

Since the classic oceans are turned to a free market economy, and that the new ocean seems to be doing good, why don't they try to implement this and see how the classic oceans go against the new ocean? ofc they would use the test ocean first, I guess that ocean must be pretty dead too, would be nice to see how it plays out.

Worst case scenario they coded for some time and realized it didn't work, isn't that their job?
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 9:15:56 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 9:02:12 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

to Devonin:

I don't like obsidian or steam and I don't think I'm the only one to feel this way.

Also my goverment owns dollars (like plenty, if not most, goverments) to keep the relation of my national currency and dollars stable (by buying and selling on the market) so the economy can grow.
No one is going to invest if the currency is volatile. how can I estimate my costs if one day it's worth X and the next day is worth 2X or 0.5X?

Currency stability would help the market, and a good market makes more players stay active. More active players means more dub buyers. I really don't understand how this concept can be so hard to grasp.

I'm not going to spend real money on game where I can get everything with in-game currency. New players are the ones to do that, and the occasional player that can buy dubs via SMS or that likes to put part of their paycheck into an online game.

If we want people to buy dubs we need new players. We need active players. We need a stable economy.


Finally, you're implying that since all the dubs enter the market my someone buying, having dubs enter the market in any other way would cost the devs. What if there's simply more dubs on the market AND more people to buy dubs?
One dosen't contradict the other.

And for the last time, the dubs made with gold wouldn't be always on the market, only when:
A) there's loads of gold, making the price of gold drop (devs control the rate at which gold appears)
B) Price of dubs go way too high and it's profitable to make dubs with gold, once you sell enough of them the market would get to a point where it's no longer profitable.
Why would people create dubs to lose money? It would be cheaper to simply buy them on the exchange.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 9:16:12 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 9:14:33 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

So now your solution to an economy that doesn't have direct intervention from the devs is predicated on it being based on a resource whose appearance rate is directly controlled by the devs....okay.
[Nov 22, 2017 10:17:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

So lets say that we figure out a fixed cost for dubs that can be crafted. You did some math earlier that put them at 4-5k which is more than the current dub price on Obsidian.

To you, this then acts as a relief valve only. When dubs go over 5k people will craft them, and then dubs go below 5k it stops being profitable to craft them so people will use the gold for other things.

But here's the thing: When you can make dubs internally with no real money involved for 5k, that will be, permanently and immediately, the new minimum price of a dubloon. They will NEVER go below that again. It won't be a relief valve, it will permanently increase the baseline cost of a dub.

You buy dubs, you always know what a dub cost you: 19-25 cents. So whatever the poe cost of dubs becomes, they're tied to that 19-25 cents per dub cost.

Once you've made SOME of your dubs without real money and SOME with real money, you won't ever accept a price below what your no-cash ones "cost" (4-5k) because there's no difference between them. By making bought dubs and crafted dubs fungible, every dub you sell might be one that cost you 5k, nobody sells dubs at a loss unless they have literally no other choice, so the baseline cost of a dubloon will just be whatever the in-game cost of crafting one is.
[Nov 22, 2017 10:24:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

How would the price of dubs stay above the price it costs to produce them? Do you not understand how competiton works?

Let's imagine I'm the richest guy on the game, I buy all the gold and put a HUGE buy order for dubs at 6k, so everyone has to buy for at least 6k, and that way I can always sell my dubs at a profit. This simply wouldn't work because there's no way I can own all the gold (as it appears randomly) and all the IMs (as they can be created on any island with available space). So I can't monopolize the dubs.
If I try to keep the dubs high to produce and sell at a profit, eventually someone is going to produce and sell to me, making me lose money and eventually my position. It is simply not sustainable.

On the other hand, with enough PoE or some cash I can effectively (and we've seen it happen loads of times) control the market. It only depends on poe, nothing gives value to the dubs but the market. This usually ends up with some rich folk (or group of rich folks) controlling the Doubloon Exchange as there is no regulation of any kind.

People don't give a barnacle about the USD to Doubloon price, they might buy once or twice but as I stated earlier: who is going to buy things with cash on a game no one plays?

First you need a game people are willing to play, then you figure out how to make them pay for it. You can't expect people to pay to play on a dead game (that you can play without paying).

This is to help new players stay. They start playing, so a couple missions, get ona pilly, get their first 10k or whatever and then they want to buy a sword. They get a nice sword and then realize they can't deliver it. They're sent to the "buy doubloons" thingy and then they think it's a pay-to-play game.

Not only should gold be able to be transformed into dubs, one of the initial missions should be "buy your first doubloon", sending greenies to the bank so they learn how to buy dubs without cash. Then AFTER they enjoy the game (and become addicted) they will start buying dubs, either sporadically or regularly, but that's a consequence. You can't base your game on the fact people buy things with real money, it's simply not gonna work. Not with this game and not with this activity.

And as I stated many times before, It's not only about the dubs, it's about having a working and stable economy that the people can enjoy and participate in.


 
But here's the thing: When you can make dubs internally with no real money involved for 5k, that will be, permanently and immediately, the new minimum price of a dubloon. They will NEVER go below that again. It won't be a relief valve, it will permanently increase the baseline cost of a dub.


That would be the maximum price, not the minimum. I'd buy dubs up to the price I can craft them myself. If dubs are over that price I wouldn't craft and keep them, I would craft and sell them at a profit, and probably buy back in lower if I need the dubs.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 1 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 10:59:46 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 10:56:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

The ability to craft dubs in-game would do much worse to screw with the economy than the current situation.

I agree that the game needs more players FIRST, I disagree that anything to do with the poe price of dubs is what is keeping player numbers down.

I've made several suggestions for ways to adjust the way the micropayment system works that are actually proven to increase the amount of revenue generated, basically all of which would work better than giving people MORE ways to get dubs without giving money to the company.
[Nov 22, 2017 11:00:13 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
The ability to craft dubs in-game would do much worse to screw with the economy than the current situation.


How so? Explain yourself.

 
I agree that the game needs more players FIRST, I disagree that anything to do with the poe price of dubs is what is keeping player numbers down.


So you don't see any correlation between the inability to buy things and players not playing ever again after the first 30-60min in game?


 
I've made several suggestions for ways to adjust the way the micropayment system works that are actually proven to increase the amount of revenue generated, basically all of which would work better than giving people MORE ways to get dubs without giving money to the company.


If you have any ideas on how players can give money to the devs without changing the fundamentals of the game go ahead and present them on a thread like this one. I honestly don't see how the game can stay free to play with this economy.
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
[Nov 22, 2017 11:05:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
That would be the maximum price, not the minimum. I'd buy dubs up to the price I can craft them myself. If dubs are over that price I wouldn't craft and keep them, I would craft and sell them at a profit, and probably buy back in lower if I need the dubs.


No that would be the minimum price. It might ALSO be the maximum price (Pro tip: it won't be, demand for dubs will outstrip the ability to craft them, so the price will go above the crafted price) but the price will never drop below the crafted price again because why would you EVER sell something cheaper than the way it could be obtained outside the system?

When a dubloon is 10k and they can be crafted at 5k, the person that wants to BUY a dubloon says "I'm not paying 10k, I can go make my own for 5k, I'm going to make my own"

When a person is trying to SELL a dubloon, they say "Well they can just get their own for 5k, so if I sell it for below 5k, when I need a dubloon again later, I'm going to have lost money getting a replacement one, unless I get at least 5k for this one"
[Nov 22, 2017 11:06:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 3576
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
So you don't see any correlation between the inability to buy things and players not playing ever again after the first 30-60min in game?


What do they need to buy in the first 30-60 minutes of the game? Absolutely nothing.

A labor badge is 5 dubloons
A parlor badge is 4 dubloons

That costs you under 3 dollars, lasts for a month, and gives you complete access to gameplay. Your labor hours alone can earn you enough poe to replace both of those badges before they dust and then some.

At 3k a dubloon that's 27,000 poe a month. You can get 27,000 poe from a middling successful low-difficulty single 2 or 3 hour pillage. You can TRIVIALLY get that amount of poe in a month with almost no effort at all.

Joining Obsidian with nothing, before I spent any real money at all, just from poe I earned by playing the game I got

Pink Bandana - 275 poe
Pink/Pink Apron - 1500 poe and 3 dubloons
Pink/Pink Pants - 1000 and 3 dubloons
Pink Boots - 1000 poe and 2 dubloons

Officer Badge - 8 Dubloons
Parlor Badge - 4 dubloons

So altogether, 4,000 poe and 20 dubs at ~3,000 each is 64,000 poe.

I think that took me 3? days of active playing to earn? One pillage routinely earns the cost of several dubloons. Actually playing the game earns you more than enough to get the dubs you need for full access to the puzzles and several nice looking styles.

Could this be improved? Yes. They should give more options at the low end that don't cost dubs to help players get more entrenched and more likely to pick up aspirational goals that will encourage them to spend money on more dubs.

Is the cost of dubs stopping people from playing? Maybe on the dead servers where the lack of activity prevents earning poe from gameplay. Best fix for that is to close those servers and concentrate the population onto Obsidian.
[Nov 22, 2017 11:18:46 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Dantesk

Member's Avatar


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 60
Status: Offline
Re: Doubs regulation Reply to this Post
Reply with Quote

 
What do they need to buy in the first 30-60 minutes of the game? Absolutely nothing.

whatever they want, if you remember being a kid you would remember wanting a sword or a hat or whatever after making some PoE on your first couple pillies, if not, why even bother making money?
 

That costs you under 3 dollars, lasts for a month, and gives you complete access to gameplay. Your labor hours alone can earn you enough poe to replace both of those badges before they dust and then some.


This might sound strange to you, but most people don't want to spend money on the first hour they've been playing a new game. Most people buy their first dubs to get a nice outfit, a big ship, or a fancy house and furniture, not badges to be able to play the game fully.

 
Is the cost of dubs stopping people from playing? Maybe on the dead servers where the lack of activity prevents earning poe from gameplay. Best fix for that is to close those servers and concentrate the population onto Obsidian.

Again, there's plenty of people that like Classic YPP over Obsidian, as Hera herself told me "they're different games".
And the dead oceans wouldn't be dead if new players would keep on playing after the first game. If you ever ruled over a Crew/Flag you should know that most of the new players NEVER log in after their first time.
I made 300k on a couple days playing on obsidian, the thing is WE'RE NOT NEW PLAYERS. We've been here for years, we know the roll.

 
When a dubloon is 10k and they can be crafted at 5k, the person that wants to BUY a dubloon says "I'm not paying 10k, I can go make my own for 5k, I'm going to make my own" When a person is trying to SELL a dubloon, they say "Well they can just get their own for 5k, so if I sell it for below 5k, when I need a dubloon again later, I'm going to have lost money getting a replacement one, unless I get at least 5k for this one"


People are not this stupid, If dubs are 10k on the market and I can make them for 5k, I would first sell my dubs for 100% profit before thinking of using them.
If they can be made for 5k they would never again reach 10k, it's the whole point of this. And if they're under 5k, why would I be making dubs that cost me more than 5k and time when I can simply buy them from the exchange? Or use that gold to produce commodities of high value?
----------------------------------------
Dantesk en Jade y por ahi
----------------------------------------
[Edit 3 times, last edit by Dantesk at Nov 22, 2017 11:36:05 PM]
[Nov 22, 2017 11:29:01 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Posts: 114   Pages: 4   [ First Page | 1 2 3 4 | Next Page | Last Page]
[Show Printable Version of Thread] [Post new Thread]

Puzzle Pirates™ © 2001-2016 Grey Havens, LLC All Rights Reserved.   Terms · Privacy · Affiliates