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Nek0jin

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A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but the way to find good Shoppe jobs is fundamentally broken. Neither the Missions tab nor the Shoppe Jobs tab in the Notice Board gives you a good selection of jobs to work at - both seem to simply pick random Shoppes that have work available.

Both can give you Shoppes that are offering terrible wages (1/1/1 and 30/30/30 were both common), and there's no easy way to find Shoppes that actually let you find the best prices and/or the most work available. I spent over an hour last night going one by one through the Alchemy Shoppes to try to find ones that I could actually work at, that didn't give terrible wages. If the Shoppe Jobs tab is actually picking the (arguably) best available, then there's something else fundamentally wrong - see the image at the bottom.

For that purpose, I'd like to see a Shoppe Jobs Search function. Pick a job, and it'll show you the best-paying jobs available (highest total of Basic + Skilled + Expert), WITH an option to re-sort by highest Basic, Highest Skilled, or highest Expert. The reason for the option to re-sort is that just going by raw numbers can be gamed (someone who puts a ridiculously high price on Expert labor and low prices on the others, when their shop doesn't offer anything that actually USES Expert labor), and so you can choose what pay grade pays the best for your skill level.

With that in mind, I'd also like the sort function to show the amount of work available for each type. If someone only needs 1 hour of Skilled and 20 hours of Basic, and I'm trying to maximize my pay through Skilled work, that's obviously not a great choice for me unless they're overpaying on Basic.

See this screenshot:


This is mid-day Saturday. While Furnishing and Tailoring both having very weak job markets is entirely believable (since there's no game associated with them), having there be only two Shipwright places with both work and decent pay is not. Likewise for Blacksmithing - although you can only see the first selection there, 25/30/70 is much lower than people have been advertising their shop wages for lately. Both Blacksmithing and Shipwright are the two sections of the job market that are actually busy and booming.
[Sep 30, 2017 4:46:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Most people advertise in events, its more accurate then any search could be. If I move my staff to a friends stall it would show that I need labor but when I put them back well I won't.


People also advertise in the forums , as far as Apoth jobs the max feed throgh labor can be done my a main and 2 alts so there are not many great jobs as its a easy puzzle.
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Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
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[Sep 30, 2017 4:58:03 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
jdl1963



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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Most people advertise in events


I wish they wouldn't. Obsidian is awash in "job at my shoppe" spam.
[Sep 30, 2017 8:58:15 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

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The events page only works now when we have three islands. How about when we hit more islands and there aren't as many stalls on each island? And what if I want people to be able to find my stall at all parts of the day, not just at those few points when I happen to be on? The events tab really sucks for finding work.

Also, I would like to be able to get a better idea for what I should be charging for my wages. What are other people paying? Am I not getting any workers because I pay too little? But then, it's so hard to find other people's wages, I have to look at that job board and hope one of those three is accurate. And as I said above, I'm sorry Jake, but the Event's board REALLY sucks for finding wages. It's only ONE HOUR of showing wages at a time. for a fee. Most of what I'm going to see there is going to be people paying too much and losing money at their stall.

The job page sucks. The event page is taking a job it shouldn't have to, and it sucks at it. Please, give us a better way to find and advertise our labor!
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Sep 30, 2017 11:17:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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This really needs a sortable spreadsheet, which should show:

* Pay rates
* Which shops have an active need for labor right now (broken down by basic/skilled/expert), for people wanting to do an active puzzle session.
* How often during the past week each shop has needed labor and used labor, so people trying to find a place to take a job can make some sort of estimation about what would suit them best.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Oct 1, 2017 4:26:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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The events page only works now when we have three islands. How about when we hit more islands and there aren't as many stalls on each island? And what if I want people to be able to find my stall at all parts of the day, not just at those few points when I happen to be on? The events tab really sucks for finding work.

Also, I would like to be able to get a better idea for what I should be charging for my wages. What are other people paying? Am I not getting any workers because I pay too little? But then, it's so hard to find other people's wages, I have to look at that job board and hope one of those three is accurate. And as I said above, I'm sorry Jake, but the Event's board REALLY sucks for finding wages. It's only ONE HOUR of showing wages at a time. for a fee. Most of what I'm going to see there is going to be people paying too much and losing money at their stall.

The job page sucks. The event page is taking a job it shouldn't have to, and it sucks at it. Please, give us a better way to find and advertise our labor!


The Job page is island specific as it should be.

 
sorry Jake, but the Event's board REALLY sucks for finding wages. It's only ONE HOUR of showing wages at a time. for a fee. Most of what I'm going to see there is going to be people paying too much and losing money at their stall.


It is work to run a stall it should be. Every stall I run is very successful however I spend 2 hours a day minimum tending them. As far as people paying to much and losing money its really hard you set your pay wage, your use wage, if the use wage is less it warns you, if one can't figure that out well....

If they make an ocean wide jobs board to advertise on oh wait trade chat......
There is no automatic system that will replace actual management. When you need people you raise rates and advertise when your good lower them. I have people working for a wide variety of wages in my stalls. Its a math puzzle to make it work, if they make it so simple it will hurt those of us that have figured out the labor game.

EDIT: There is also a hugely underutilized forum page for this, with all the people looking to hire only 5 posted there as of now, this is a good way to drive people to the forums which are fantastic but underused. I have managed to fill labor at 3 shops with the current system, with excess to job for others.
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Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Filthyjake at Oct 1, 2017 5:48:39 AM]
[Oct 1, 2017 5:33:45 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Faulkston

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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An inverse feature request was to exclude places with full reserve labor, maximum labor throughput, or 1-1-1 wages.
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[Oct 1, 2017 10:01:07 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/search [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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The Job page is island specific as it should be.


Yes, I agree that the job page should be island specific. I never said anything against that, just that the EVENT page does not work well for finding work after we have spread to a large number of islands.

 
It is work to run a stall it should be. Every stall I run is very successful however I spend 2 hours a day minimum tending them. As far as people paying to much and losing money its really hard you set your pay wage, your use wage, if the use wage is less it warns you, if one can't figure that out well....


One, I make a good few tens of thousands off of ten minutes a day on my shipbuilding stall. Hours are not needed every day. Just knowledge. However, not knowing what others charge for labor does hurt.

And two. You don't have to have your use wage lower than your pay wage to lose money in your stall. People who pay too much for labor have to charge too much. They then have to buy wood and iron for the cheapest on the market or they wont be selling a ship anytime soon for a price anyone would be willing to pay. They most likely will end up moving down their prices.

 
If they make an ocean wide jobs board to advertise on oh wait trade chat......
There is no automatic system that will replace actual management. When you need people you raise rates and advertise when your good lower them. I have people working for a wide variety of wages in my stalls. Its a math puzzle to make it work, if they make it so simple it will hurt those of us that have figured out the labor game.


I don't just play YPP all day, and I'm not the only one. I only get on for my stall right now. It's not unusual for me to go through cycles where I will play obsessively, then only get on to make sure the stall is doing okay. However, because I have the stall, I will eventually come back to playing the game.

I play YPP because I can run my own small business. None of the pressures of real life businesses, yet still supplying players with stuff they want. However, The system sucks. It looks like it was pulled straight out of ten years ago, probably because it has barley changed since then. And you gotta realize, Jake, that we need more than cobbled together ducktape fixes for problems with this system. It needs to change. YPP is a game from 10 years ago, true, but it doesn't need to have all the problems of one.
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Oct 1, 2017 11:35:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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The Job page is island specific as it should be.


Yes, I agree that the job page should be island specific. I never said anything against that, just that the EVENT page does not work well for finding work after we have spread to a large number of islands.


Both are island specific so not sure what will change.

 
And what if I want people to be able to find my stall at all parts of the day, not just at those few points when I happen to be on?
Use the Fourms They are almost allays up 24/7 you can also see what others are offering.

 
And two. You don't have to have your use wage lower than your pay wage to lose money in your stall. People who pay too much for labor have to charge too much. They then have to buy wood and iron for the cheapest on the market or they wont be selling a ship anytime soon for a price anyone would be willing to pay. They most likely will end up moving down their prices.


The OP was requesting "a functional Jobs market" not help with commodious so I was keeping it to labor.

 
The system sucks. It looks like it was pulled straight out of ten years ago, probably because it has barley changed since then. And you gotta realize, Jake, that we need more than cobbled together ducktape fixes for problems with this system. It needs to change. YPP is a game from 10 years ago, true, but it doesn't need to have all the problems of one.


My post simply say that it works. I didn't say its great or other games should use it. I was showing how to make what we have work as its HIGHly unlikely they will revamp the job market issues any time soon as there are many things that are actually broken and not working. So yes its ducktape/workarounds, want to see who needs labor look at parties as they use them now or the underused forums. Or go in and out of shops all day long looking. Its unfair to complain the the systems are broken when only 5 people used the system, I am one and my shops filled are with labor.
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Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
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[Oct 1, 2017 1:01:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Altich

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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It's true, I don't even see a reason why the shoppe jobs tab exists. To find a good job there you must be quite lucky.
[Oct 5, 2017 12:06:36 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Keaze

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Bumperino. Forculicous please...

"Featured" jobs shouldn't include inactive/super low paying shoppes. Please fix.

10Q
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Keaze
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[Nov 1, 2017 2:19:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Filthyjake

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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I have been tossing this around in my head. What if the shop job page had paid for adds that were up for 24 hours rather then pulled data from shops that don't want people. This would allow us shop keepers to post ads and create a poe sink, much like a party just that it last 24 hours. It could even be an ocean wide page.

Shop
Location
Pay
Needs
other info

run add for 24 hours 2500 poe
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Filthyjake all oceans primary Cerulean
DUB FREE Ocean (Cerulean) Dub Scribe 42 dubs NO delivery FEES
SO/Parlor/Labor/SMH badge 39 dubs
You can play free to try it
[Nov 1, 2017 2:39:31 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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I have been tossing this around in my head. What if the shop job page had paid for adds that were up for 24 hours rather then pulled data from shops that don't want people. This would allow us shop keepers to post ads and create a poe sink, much like a party just that it last 24 hours. It could even be an ocean wide page.

Shop
Location
Pay
Needs
other info

run add for 24 hours 2500 poe

This is a good suggestion. It would drastically reduce the use of "Party" announcements for Shoppe advertising (although probably not eliminate it).
[Nov 2, 2017 9:16:39 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forculus
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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Part of the issue here is that the game doesn't make it very clear how the jobs are selected for the "Shoppe Jobs" tab. There's a rating calculated for each job, and then it displays three types of results:
  • The highest rated job
  • A randomly selected job from the top 20% of rated jobs
  • A completely random job

Now this was implemented before my time, but I'm pretty sure the intention here is to give every shop owner at least some chance of showing up on the notice board, and to try and spread out the laborers a bit. Otherwise it might be very cut-throat, with no hope of your shoppe ever appearing unless you were willing to offer the very best rates.

Having said that, players shouldn't have to spend an hour trying to find the best job, and it's always nice to make more information available when possible, rather than hiding it. I'm going to look into some way to display the full list of jobs for those pirates who are interested, the main holdup is just getting everything formatted and displayed nicely in the client. I'm currently in the middle of some other unrelated changes, but I'll try to find time to get this sorted when possible.
[Nov 6, 2017 8:43:47 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Keaze

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Re: A functional Jobs market! Reply to this Post
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Part of the issue here is that the game doesn't make it very clear how the jobs are selected for the "Shoppe Jobs" tab. There's a rating calculated for each job, and then it displays three types of results:
  • The highest rated job
  • A randomly selected job from the top 20% of rated jobs
  • A completely random job

Now this was implemented before my time, but I'm pretty sure the intention here is to give every shop owner at least some chance of showing up on the notice board, and to try and spread out the laborers a bit. Otherwise it might be very cut-throat, with no hope of your shoppe ever appearing unless you were willing to offer the very best rates.

Having said that, players shouldn't have to spend an hour trying to find the best job, and it's always nice to make more information available when possible, rather than hiding it. I'm going to look into some way to display the full list of jobs for those pirates who are interested, the main holdup is just getting everything formatted and displayed nicely in the client. I'm currently in the middle of some other unrelated changes, but I'll try to find time to get this sorted when possible.


I like it when you say things.
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Keaze
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[Nov 6, 2017 8:57:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Part of the issue here is that the game doesn't make it very clear how the jobs are selected for the "Shoppe Jobs" tab. There's a rating calculated for each job, and then it displays three types of results:

What the game does with that rating seems reasonable to me, but you don't say what that "rating" is.

For example, when I've studied the job board, newly opened stalls seem to be almost always listed. One the surface, this seems like a nice boost to new shop owners, but new store owners often can't use that labor until they have done a lot of other things. Over all, listing new stores hurts the game, instead, new stores will have lots of potential for new employees and that is what the game should aim for.

Like wise, if a store that pays 10/15/150 is rated very high, even when it doesn't actually use any expert labor, then there is a problem.

Also, a store with an empty queue and no reserved labor to fill should never be listed, since new employees won't get any work.

Somewhat similarly, if a store is so busy that it is maxing out its labor capacity, it shouldn't be listed either because new employees won't get any work.

Likewise, stores below a minimal amount in their coffers should never be listed. That is, if the coffers don't have enough to pay rent and at least one or two full days of labor, they probably won't be a good place to work. Labor escrow helps here, but not enough. Having more in the coffers besides this minimum probably isn't going to make things better, but having that minimum is important.

So, basically, the rating system should try to estimate how much PoE an employee can get if they take a job there.

Now, instead of the game trying to rate jobs, you could take a completely different approach and make store owners pay to advertise on the shop jobs board, with the higher they bid, the more likely the show up. That is, create a free market of job offers. That is kind of what the "throw a party" thing does, except store owners can't change their bid amount.
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[Nov 6, 2017 10:38:30 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Nek0jin

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Likewise, stores below a minimal amount in their coffers should never be listed. That is, if the coffers don't have enough to pay rent and at least one or two full days of labor, they probably won't be a good place to work. Labor escrow helps here, but not enough. Having more in the coffers besides this minimum probably isn't going to make things better, but having that minimum is important.

I agree with the rest of this, but this one in particular happened to me a few days ago. One of my Labors went dormant, I went to a shop from the Notice Board, checked it, saw that it had work that I could provide, did the puzzle, and...

got nothing (but refreshing my Labor activity) for it, because there was no money in the coffer to pay me. And the worst part of this (unlike all of the other reasons why you might not get paid doing the puzzle), there is no way to avoid this problem. You can never know whether a store can pay you until after you do the puzzle.

The fact that they don't get the labor is a half-step in the right direction, but it's still a waste of time that the player has no real way of avoiding.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Nek0jin at Nov 6, 2017 12:44:44 PM]
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