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farmboy236

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Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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I, Majorjr, play on the Cerulean Ocean. Over the months of Grey Havens’ ownership I’ve noticed that a lot of players, mostly unpopular or having some negative attention, have been banned, unbanned, and banned with no future appeal successful. I find this rather peculiar. Either, the policy is ineffective, the ownership biased, or they look for the erosion of the player base to an unethical, albeit, effective end to the game.

I am staunch in my belief that those that break the rules should be punished, but these are individuals I know well, and am willing to put my reputation on the line for. Of course, you can’t disclose specific details of individual cases, nor should I disclose individual details on a private forum. However, I am more than happy to voice my disdain on the injustices I feel I have witnessed. I am a rather prolific subscriber on Cerulean, I head the largest flag on the Ocean, I understand that I have my own pundits, much like those banned for botting, or other unspecific offenses. More than likely, I will be “looked into”, or the complaints against me viewed “more seriously”, or with greater “scrutiny”. At this point, however, I really don’t care, I have had enough of the selective punishment of some, and the lack of discipline for others.

I understand the constraints of a small team and a small budget, but that doesn’t mean, nor does it allow, inconsistency or unfair treatment, judgement, or decision making. If anything, it is a factor that should push one to act with greater scrutiny on oneself. So far, I am unconvinced that the current team of owners has done that. Until I see more consistency I shan’t be buying subscription or doubloons for the foreseeable future. If I’m banned for my own dissidence I really couldn’t be bothered. My upbringing wasn’t perfect, but I was always taught that if you can’t say you were honest, you can’t say you were anything of value.

Cheers,

Majorjr/Major/Littlemenjr
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Majorjr on Cerulean
Littlemenjr on Meridian
Major on Emerald

Aristoza greeter chats, "Hello! I'm an Ocean Master, an administrator of this game. Please shut yer trap"
[Oct 13, 2016 9:45:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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/e sighs.

Would you mind just finding one of the many, many, freaking many other group banplea posts and adding to those, instead of creating yet another one?
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Oct 14, 2016 11:09:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Ryanford350

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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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/e sighs.

Would you mind just finding one of the many, many, freaking many other group banplea posts and adding to those, instead of creating yet another one?


That's the funniest part, it's not a ban plea, but anticipation of a ban! Done nuuuuuthin wrong, but for some reason is threatening not making purchases anticipating he will be maliciously targeted and banned for his dissenting opinion

It's just too funny
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PoE

Don't waste your time
Or time will waste you

================
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[Oct 14, 2016 12:29:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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/e sighs.

Would you mind just finding one of the many, many, freaking many other group banplea posts and adding to those, instead of creating yet another one?


That's the funniest part, it's not a ban plea, but anticipation of a ban! Done nuuuuuthin wrong, but for some reason is threatening not making purchases anticipating he will be maliciously targeted and banned for his dissenting opinion

It's just too funny

Eh, as near as I can tell, there's a group of banned players that has systematically set up to spam the forums on a regular basis, trying to stir up support for their cause, as if this was a democracy*. At least, that's what it looks like, based on (1) the fact that posts like these started popping up half a year ago or so**, repeated with some variations, every week or two, with occasional spikes whenever it looks like developers are paying special attention to the forums, and (2) reading between the lines in the annoyed tones from the OMs/developers on those rare occasions when they respond obliquely to what is going on, during those periods where the Banned Brigade is mass spamming (usually to explain why a dozen posts just got removed).

-------
* "Call your representative NOW and tell him that America needs a mass unbanning so that we can become the country we deserve to be..."***

** Time approximate at best. But there was a distinct point in the near recent past where the occasional argument for mass unbanning turned into a regular event.

*** If some variation on this phrase isn't common in your country, count your blessings!
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 4 times, last edit by xelto at Oct 14, 2016 1:57:59 PM]
[Oct 14, 2016 1:52:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
LJAmethyst

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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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----------------------------------------
Retired as of August 2015.
2 Timothy 4:7
[Oct 14, 2016 2:19:07 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    http://www.newadvent.org/bible/jon001.htm [Link]  Go to top 
farmboy236

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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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That's correct, I have done nothing wrong. I am just frustrated watching people, I do like, don't like, and people I am indifferent to get varying levels of response, commitment, and punishment (or lack thereof). I'm only voicing my opinion that what is good for the goose should be good for the gander, so on and so forth.

As for not making any purchases, that is largely, and quite frankly one of the few forms of protest I have at my disposal. I believe that banning is necessary, and can be a good thing. However, when it's done without following a set of policies or reason it fails to be a good thing. No, I do not want mass unbanning, that in my opinion is ludicrous.

All I'm trying to say here is, when you do business with a person, organisation, or entity do you or do you not expect transparency, policy, and fairness?
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Majorjr on Cerulean
Littlemenjr on Meridian
Major on Emerald

Aristoza greeter chats, "Hello! I'm an Ocean Master, an administrator of this game. Please shut yer trap"
[Oct 14, 2016 4:27:29 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Tigerbond



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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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I agree mate some people are being targeted unfairly and banned for no good reason, while others are serial pests but seem to be above reproach.

Maybe major's got the right idea....vote with our wallets and our hearts.

I for one would like to see a more a transparent system where customers are not treated like worm droppings. If a person supplies data proving their innocence then go back to basics and check the game, god knows the game is so buggie... I wouldn't be surprised if all of majors alts end up wearing skirts.

yeah I want to see majors little knobbly knees wobble around the ocean.
[Oct 14, 2016 5:31:35 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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All I'm trying to say here is, when you do business with a person, organisation, or entity do you or do you not expect transparency, policy, and fairness?

You do not, at least in regards to transparency. Especially not with businesses. And especially especially not when you have customers trying to argue with you. Or in the case of banned players, ex-customers.

I know, that goes contrary to what the media clamors for. Of course, that's their stock in trade, they have to clamor for it. But my experiences in customer service is that when many customers are trying to get something, they will argue till the cows come home for it. If you give them reasons why not, they will immediately start arguing against those reasons. And the further reasons you give them. And keep on going until you tell flat out simply say no and stop arguing. It's pointless to be transparent, because they use this as an excuse to keep arguing.

Case in point: Y!PP. We used to have a term in the forums: Cephalopwned. It was coined because, whenever someone would come to the forums making a big stink about being banned "for no reason at all!", Cephalapod would casually mention why they got banned. And every time the banning was "I never did anything!", it turned out that they did, in fact, do something.

He had to stop because some barrelstoppers figured out that that's how to spot what they got caught for, and try to refine their technique for next time.

No, you don't get transparency in what you got banned for. Actually, when you're banned, you get a reason given to you. The details they don't mention for security reasons; no point in letting people know how to get around the system. What the banned players tell others now... I do feel nostalgic about the days when you could pull out the popcorn and wait for the person trying forum banpleas to get Cephalapwned. It would be interesting to see how many people would publicly support the person before the truth came out.

The worst case in point: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=135563&offset=0

Note that in the first 100+ posts, there were only two dissenting voices. There were scads of people saying "He's obviously innocent, let him back!" He was a well-liked person on the ocean. It was hard to believe that he scammed a frigate full of people on a very long voyage, or that he pretty much forced the developers to spend the next few weeks plugging an exploit. And even then, it wasn't until about post #115 in the thread that Cephalopod stepped in to point out the discrepancies in his claim.

Now, moving past transparency to politeness: when someone's in an argumentative mood, sometimes politeness helps. Far too often, it's seen as a sign of vulnerability, and a way to get a particular edge in. When someone's being reasonable, politeness usually goes a long way towards defusing the situation. When someone's in an argumentative mood, stock politeness works better: it shows that you're more than willing to stonewall them longer than they're willing to argue with you.

And finally, fairness. There are actually a number of people who have successfully banplead. It's not like OOO/GH doesn't go back and re-review information. But again, my experience is that sideline refs make at least as many mistakes as the on-field refs do. Trying to argue that what they did wan't fair isn't really fair to the people making those decisions, especially since, unlike a sporting event, these refs are capable of seeing stuff we don't get to. So you can argue that they're being unfair, but please understand if I don't join you in this argument. I mean, GH potentially loses money with each person they ban. They have an incentive to make sure the person is really, truly guilty before doing so.

---------
Incidentally, before anyone starts telling me I don't belong in customer service with an attitude like that, most customers are just fine. Some go beyond fine to pleasant. Some are decent people who just had a bad day and forgot that the person on the other side of the counter is a person deserving basic respect as well.

The relative number of people who are barrestoppers who think that just because a person is in foodservice, retail, or some other customer relations position, he's their slave who should be happy to be able to kiss their booty, is actually fairly low overall. As is the number of dedicated thieves, scammers, and vandals. But they're the ones who cause the serious problems. And many of them are the type who will argue, lie, and yell until either they get what they want, get stonewalled sufficiently, or get escorted off the premises.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 5 times, last edit by xelto at Oct 14, 2016 8:05:22 PM]
[Oct 14, 2016 7:19:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
farmboy236

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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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I can see your points, and I do appreciate the criticism, although I see it as incorrect. Sure, you aren't guaranteed transparency, nor do you have a right to it. However, I work in RV service where transparency and customer service go hand in hand. Sure, I could say, X, Y, and Z were scuppered, you owe us for that. However, without transparency, honesty, and fairness, people dispute the charges and eventually take business elsewhere. That's not good for a bottom line.

Having been banned, I did get transparency, I approached it with diplomacy and calmness. Through discussion and admission, I was unbanned. The details not pertinent to anyone but myself and the ocean master team at the time. Yet, nowadays I don't see the same privileges that I was allowed. So, I disagree with your point.

I agree, the vast majority of customers are wonderful people. I also agree that if someone is angry, 95%+ of the time they are mad at a situation, not the individual or organisation, and can be easily reasoned with and appeased.

I still think you're horribly wrong that you don't expect to be treated fairly. If Apple isn't fair to you, why not buy a Samsung phone? I think it's fair to say, from my experience and my education, that even if you have someone's business, every transaction and day you still have to continue to earn it.
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Majorjr on Cerulean
Littlemenjr on Meridian
Major on Emerald

Aristoza greeter chats, "Hello! I'm an Ocean Master, an administrator of this game. Please shut yer trap"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by farmboy236 at Oct 14, 2016 8:51:18 PM]
[Oct 14, 2016 8:49:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Furarri

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Re: In Before the Lock Reply to this Post
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It would be interesting to see how many people would publicly support the person before the truth came out.

The worst case in point: http://forums.puzzlepirates.com/community/mvnforum/viewthread?thread=135563&offset=0

Note that in the first 100+ posts, there were only two dissenting voices. There were scads of people saying "He's obviously innocent, let him back!" He was a well-liked person on the ocean. It was hard to believe that he scammed a frigate full of people on a very long voyage, or that he pretty much forced the developers to spend the next few weeks plugging an exploit. And even then, it wasn't until about post #115 in the thread that Cephalopod stepped in to point out the discrepancies in his claim.
Chephalopod showed the pirates Godslayer was guilty.
Then...
Godslayer was unbanned.
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.... submarines are out!
Slimbottom won't like this at all.

Awesome avatar by Terrify! Thanks!
[Oct 14, 2016 10:29:27 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: I am also changing the topic Reply to this Post
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Jr, I have no idea on whom you are referring to in this thread, but what I am willing to wager is that you only know the player side of the story. I have yet to see an instance where OOO was wrong to have banned someone. I have yet to see a player be 100% truthful about what happened in their situation.

And when I say "where OOO was wrong to have banned someone" I don't mean that players have never been wrongfully banned. I mean that OOO sees what they believe to be bannable gameplay, so they act to prevent damage to other players. They then sort out the issue and make a decision on whether or not the player is guilty.

What transparency are you looking for? If GH bans you, it's not like they don't tell you why they've done it. It's not as though you have no recourse to counter what they're saying you did. It's not as though you don't know what types of things will get you banned.
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#TeamEvil
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[Oct 15, 2016 2:06:31 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
Dunsparce1

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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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What happened to the other posts?
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Dunsparce on Emerald
Emiya on Cerulean
[Oct 19, 2016 9:39:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
TexasBeesh

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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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They were removed. Those were some really good post too. But I am sure they were removed b/c they pretty much spelled out how to exploit things.
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Seatexan - on the Midnight side of Cerulean
LOW RACK PRICES AT DRESSED TO KILL - NAMATH
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[Oct 19, 2016 9:47:09 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Forumacc



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Re: Grey Havens' Banning Policy Reply to this Post
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They were removed. Those were some really good post too. But I am sure they were removed b/c they pretty much spelled out how to exploit things.


Exactly. I have both posts saved, although mine was just a reply without a lot of information of how to exploit, but I guess it was deleted because I was just exclusively referring to the deleted post and I quoted it. I won't post them again anyway.

Why I think it was necessary to spell out how the exploits work? Because otherwise, people wouldn't believe it and would keep thinking everything is working greatly and the company is great and doing everything they can do to keep toxic people out. Nope.

See how most people in the forums are usually praising their "efforts" to keep the game clean. It's far from being clean. More than half the people use any of the mentioned exploits, some legal, some not legal. Yet they don't act on it.

I think it's super necessary to give visibility to what's going on with the exploits so people get aware, but they don't allow it.
They probably want to pretend everything is going well. Not sure why, if such a huge number of people take advantage of those exploits...
[Oct 19, 2016 10:10:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
zapadapa

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Re: deleted exploit post:
I agree that it was very interesting reading and good for the rest of us to know how these things were done. A bit of transparency is good! Those of us who are plodding away at the puzzles and seemingly never getting anywhere can at least rest assured that it is not just skill at the puzzle, but knowing how to use the game mechanics. I don't think that post would have spurred too many people to act on those exploits because most required a LOT of time, effort and skill, so good luck to those people using them (the legal ones I mean).
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Zapa of Emerald
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[Oct 19, 2016 4:06:34 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Coincide



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Re: I am also changing the topic Reply to this Post
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Jr, I have no idea on whom you are referring to in this thread, but what I am willing to wager is that you only know the player side of the story. I have yet to see an instance where OOO was wrong to have banned someone. I have yet to see a player be 100% truthful about what happened in their situation.

And when I say "where OOO was wrong to have banned someone" I don't mean that players have never been wrongfully banned. I mean that OOO sees what they believe to be bannable gameplay, so they act to prevent damage to other players. They then sort out the issue and make a decision on whether or not the player is guilty.

What transparency are you looking for? If GH bans you, it's not like they don't tell you why they've done it. It's not as though you have no recourse to counter what they're saying you did. It's not as though you don't know what types of things will get you banned.

Not gonna lie, I'm pretty salty that I got banned for "botting" while I was asleep yesterday night, seeing as I haven't played rigs in millennia(which is my most "botty-looking" stat ), and the most likely culprit is someone I crushed on my recent quest for Ult SF...
Even worse is the fact that there's literally nothing I've done in the last weeks to aggravate people, like, after I got ult sf I pretty much just weaved some and got bored and started reading fanfiction. Thanks for the ban with extreme prejudice, I guess?
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Coincide at Jun 20, 2017 12:38:05 PM]
[Jun 20, 2017 12:37:30 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
majestrate

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Re: I am also changing the topic Reply to this Post
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I don't know why you quoted and then thanked me for the "ban with extreme prejudice", I have nothing to do with the ban process. I don't even /blackspot or /complain players. So I am about as far from the ban process as one can be, short of not playing the game.

You should probably hit yppedia and follow the rules for a ban pleading and take into account that we are talking about a very small staff, so the response might take more than a few days (maybe more than a few weeks? I'm really not sure, just trying to put an emphasis on patience).

Good luck!
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#TeamShadowFleet
[Jun 21, 2017 5:13:19 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message    first_majestrate    majestrait [Link]  Go to top 
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