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Lylesnipah



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Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Should this kind of trolling be even allowed? It is both the highest buying price and the lowest selling price, which is the exact same price.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
[Nov 17, 2017 12:42:37 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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It's not hurting anyone, as far as I can tell. So if the guy wants to be taxed on a weekly basis to make no money, what's wrong with it?
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Nov 17, 2017 2:00:20 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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He is probably building things in his stall but this pricing of his for that commodity blocks both buying and selling and forcing people who want to buy that commodity to pay more, or actually buy from the stall sellers. Because he sells for the cheapest people buy from him and because he is buying 700 for the highest price he sucks up all the commodity from the merchants from people who are selling that.
It is an endless loop that prevents that commodity from reaching others.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
[Nov 17, 2017 2:54:17 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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His price is 10. The most likely commodity in question is iron, especially given how many most people are selling. Given how fast iron spawns, someone, bot or human, is going to fill that purchase order reasonably soon, allowing others to buy for lower than 10.

What he's done is essentially like someone having a buy order at 10 and a sell order at 11. The only difference is that if a competitor wants to buy this commodity quickly, instead of having to match his price of 10, they can leave their purchase price where it is, and buy what they need right now from him.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Nov 17, 2017 3:13:02 PM]
[Nov 17, 2017 3:12:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Someone is going to fill the purchase order soon, and then someone else is going to buy from him and so on, leaving everyone else stuck without Iron unless they either match his price or buy above him. Both my SY and IM are without Iron right now because the price doesn't go below 10 now because of that person, already seen someone buying for 11.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lylesnipah at Nov 18, 2017 2:22:56 AM]
[Nov 18, 2017 2:22:20 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Someone is going to fill the purchase order soon, and then someone else is going to buy from him and so on, leaving everyone else stuck without Iron unless they either match his price or buy above him.

Look, I understand you're upset because you're not getting the commodities you want at the prices you want. But if he was doing the usual thing--buying at 10, selling at 11--what would be happening right now is that your other competitors, instead of buying from him at 10, would have their own purchase prices set to 10, because that would be the only way to get iron. So instead of one guy both buying and selling at 10, there would be two... or three... or six people buying at 10 (and selling higher than 10). Which would give you would the same issue: match their price or exceed it.

 
Both my SY and IM are without Iron right now because the price doesn't go below 10 now because of that person, already seen someone buying for 11.

It's not because of that person. It's because enough people want iron that they're going to pay 10 for it, one way or another. Commodity prices will fluctuate; it's built into the system.

Learning how to deal with the inevitable ups and downs of commodity pricing is one of the important tricks of shopkeeping. My home island spawns iron, so I get to see how much people are willing to pay for it up close and personal. The price has, over the years, gone from a low of 7 to a high of 12. (And since we spawn it, we usually have the cheapest prices on the ocean. 10 is cheap for iron in most places.) Right now, your island is in an upswing. You're either going to have to pay more, find a way to bring it in from other islands (more possible once islands on Obsidian become colonized), or close up your shops.

Eventually, the prices will start to drop--it's built into the system. When that happens, if you have some cost-efficient way to stockpile it, that's a good way to try to ride out the next price surge.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
[Nov 18, 2017 5:01:22 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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One of the nice, fun things about this game is the open, unregulated market. There are very few factors that control the market, and so players are left to build it up themselves. Believe it or not, that's one of the best parts of the game for many players.

Little bit of economics: if left with an open market, the 'invisible hand' will have a small bit of say. When things go a little crazy, many governments are better off not messing with it, as the market will often fix itself.

And yes, you have the impatient or the 'trolls' who will raise prices. But, eventually they will run out of money, or will realize that they can't compete with prices because of their high buy prices. They will disappear, and the price will settle back down.
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Nov 18, 2017 7:37:48 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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This is just an element of a stable market for that commodity right now. It's kinda weird how he set both to the same number, but you can either wait for his room to fill up and then the commodity will be sold lower (like always), or you can just buy some for 10 from him as much as you need.

And honestly, if paying 10 instead of 9 for a commodity breaks your stall, you're probably not making much profits anyway.
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-Porglit on Emerald
[Nov 18, 2017 9:56:06 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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This is just an element of a stable market for that commodity right now. It's kinda weird how he set both to the same number, but you can either wait for his room to fill up and then the commodity will be sold lower (like always), or you can just buy some for 10 from him as much as you need.

And honestly, if paying 10 instead of 9 for a commodity breaks your stall, you're probably not making much profits anyway.


It doesn't break my stall, especially since I've had 70k in the hold until I finally started taking out money. I just put a line on how much I want to pay for commodities. I manage my stall very closely.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
[Nov 18, 2017 10:54:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
xelto

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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It doesn't break my stall, especially since I've had 70k in the hold until I finally started taking out money. I just put a line on how much I want to pay for commodities. I manage my stall very closely.

Knowing how much to pay for commodities is a very good in a shopkeeper. Putting a hard line in that you refuse to cross isn't, especially for necessary commodities.

Just for comparison purposes, here are the current buy offers on notable islands across Emerald:

11 Aimuri
9 Armstrong
11 Sayer's Rock (spawns iron, current market bid is 33!)
11 Alkaid
13 Caravanserai
10 Arakoua
14 Bowditch (spawns iron, current market bid is 13)
15 Scrimshaw (spawns iron, current market bid is 12)
16 Admiral

So... paying 10 for iron is not in any way unexceptional. If you want to try to pay less, I wish you luck.
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Gurndigarn on Emerald Ocean
"Oh, come on. You jobbed onto a ship called the Cursed Isle Raider and you expected *refined*?"
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by xelto at Nov 18, 2017 2:45:46 PM]
[Nov 18, 2017 2:43:26 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Each island has it's own reason for the different price, especially in Obsidian where the colonized islands are pretty far away from each other.

I wouldn't mind paying 13 PoE for iron on an island where that is its price. I do mind when people troll the market like this, which ends up increasing its price like now. Iron was going for 9 PoE for quite some time on the island, until this troll. Now there are probably over 2k iron in buy orders for 10 PoE.

Also, regarding free market and economy, a free market also has taxes which prevent buying and selling for the same price (stock market for example) or any other tax when buying things, like VAT.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
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[Edit 3 times, last edit by Lylesnipah at Nov 19, 2017 8:49:37 AM]
[Nov 19, 2017 8:03:55 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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I could just give you the 2000 poe that is the price difference?
[Nov 19, 2017 9:48:28 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Iron was going for 9 PoE for quite some time on the island, until this troll.

Again, this "troll" has nothing to do with the price. Again, the game is designed to create price fluctuations. See the yppedia article dynamic spawn

The following is a graph of the recent sales tax rate of iron for obsidian, all other oceans show the same fluctuations.

 
Also, regarding free market and economy, a free market also has taxes which prevent buying and selling for the same price

First, a free market doesn't always have to have any sort of transaction fee or tax. Second, stalls have rent/property tax so this seller can't survive on these trades alone.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Nov 19, 2017 12:35:21 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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You are acting as if there is absolutely no affect of the people on the market price, when they are the ones setting that price. If I put a buy order for 1 million iron for a price of 100 PoE each, you can be damn sure that at some point other people will start buying for that same price as well and even higher if they ever want to see iron in their stalls, it is called market manipulation, and that is pretty much exactly what that person did.
Due to the fact that the game always puts your offer up when you are below max amount it is pretty much like putting up a buy offer for an endless amount. If people weren't the ones putting up prices then you might have been correct.

Also, that ocean-wide buy prices is a nice graph except that it has little to no information on it other than some arbitrary price numbers and dates. How many pieces were selling for that price? Is that an offer that was actually fulfilled? Also, that graph is a tax price and doesn't have a market price graph, which doesn't make sense at all.

The rent is not a tax on the orders, unlike bidding and dub trading for example.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lylesnipah at Nov 20, 2017 6:13:37 AM]
[Nov 20, 2017 6:12:46 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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You are acting as if there is absolutely no affect of the people on the market price, when they are the ones setting that price. If I put a buy order for 1 million iron for a price of 100 PoE {...}

Again, read the yppedia article on dynamic spawn.

No, you can't drive the price of iron up to 100 PoE/unit for over a week, you can't drive it up to 20PoE for a month. The game will just start spawning iron faster and faster until you run out of PoE. You could have all the PoE in the game, and you would still run out.

You also can't drive the price of iron down to 10 PoE long term. (unless the game has almost no players, e.g. Ice.) The dynamic spawn will just keep reducing the amount of iron spawned until there is almost no iron being generated.

Looking at the graph I posted, iron will be increasing in price for a while now before it starts coming back down.


 
Also, that ocean-wide buy prices is a nice graph except that it has little to no information on it other than some arbitrary price numbers and dates.

It contains critical information. If the tax value for iron is below the long term average, then the price will start to rise. If it is above, the price will start to fall. Know when to buy, know when to sell.

 
How many pieces were selling for that price? Is that an offer that was actually fulfilled? Also, that graph is a tax price and doesn't have a market price graph, which doesn't make sense at all

I don't play on Obsidian and I have no way of collecting that information. For obsidian, I just use yoweb to get the sales tax data. I do have market data for other oceans, especially on oceans that I used to play on.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Nov 20, 2017 6:37:57 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Yes, that price will not hold for a week probably but people will still start using that price if they want to get iron and that would not be because of changes in spawn frequency of iron, the same exact artificial price increase created by that player. It doesn't matter if the price would increase regardless or not, it was done by placing a buy order of an infinite amount of iron for an increased price.

And regarding rent, they will only need 29k to keep this up for 10 weeks, assuming they are using the smallest stall, or 55k if they are using the Deluxe one (Shipbuilding), which is pretty much nothing.

Your graph will now show that the dynamic spawn has made the price increase :)
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Lylesnipah at Nov 20, 2017 6:55:26 AM]
[Nov 20, 2017 6:54:44 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
wrs1864b

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Yes, that price will not hold for a week probably but people will still start using that price if they want to get iron

If I was still playing, I wouldn't reply. This is obviously good for me as a skilled shopkeeper. If others are over paying for iron, I was able to use it to make a profit. If you can't figure that out, well, that's just good for better players.

So, in the first reply to your thread, Xelto said "It's not hurting anyone", and that is wrong; It isn't hurting anyone that understands how to be a shopkeeper, but you continue to fail to learn.

For what is worth, I think the rent should increased as that would make it more obvious to poor shopkeepers that they need to learn.
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Algol can not assert the truth of all statements in this post and still be consistent.
[Nov 20, 2017 7:13:15 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Scarpath

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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If you really want to keep the price low, just try both buying and selling. I buy hemp for 3, and sell it for 4. In the entire time I've been doing so, I've only had to up it once. Same with wood at my shipbuilding stall. It's not too great a source of income, but it does help keep the market steady, as when someone tries to up the price too much, people can just buy from you for the short while it takes for the higher price to get bought out.

Another thing you can do leads to a decent amount of poe in your pocket: Just sell to them instead of waiting for their hold to fill otherwise. Someone who buys for 14 when the norm is 3? Weeell, I just sold to them and made a profit of 11 per unit.

One person will have a hard time making a large difference in price. They just lead to a good payoff for other shopkeepers. And although one person can start the increase of price, they never do it alone. They just want to get the good faster, and others will often agree.
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Scarpath on Emerald, Cerulean, and Meridian!

Also Scarpath on Obsidian, Defiant to the core.

Your grammar should at least be as good as mine, take the time to make it decent!
[Nov 20, 2017 8:16:40 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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And regarding rent, they will only need 29k to keep this up for 10 weeks, assuming they are using the smallest stall, or 55k if they are using the Deluxe one (Shipbuilding), which is pretty much nothing.


I can't see how 55k is "pretty much nothing" when we're talking about you losing 1 poe per iron. Unless you're regularly selling 55,000 iron, in which case there's something about this game I simply don't know about.

But honestly, this guy can only affect the iron market as much as his hold can, well, hold. Considering there's regularly thousands of iron being shifted around every day one way or the other, there's absolutely no way he, singlehandedly, can bring that to a halt. If he had 10 stalls all doing the same thing, perhaps, but a single stall isn't going to ruin the entire game.

I'm REALLY not sure why you've devoted so much raging to a single buy price of 10...
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-Porglit on Emerald
[Nov 20, 2017 9:09:14 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Lylesnipah



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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Yes, that price will not hold for a week probably but people will still start using that price if they want to get iron

If I was still playing, I wouldn't reply. This is obviously good for me as a skilled shopkeeper. If others are over paying for iron, I was able to use it to make a profit. If you can't figure that out, well, that's just good for better players.

So, in the first reply to your thread, Xelto said "It's not hurting anyone", and that is wrong; It isn't hurting anyone that understands how to be a shopkeeper, but you continue to fail to learn.

For what is worth, I think the rent should increased as that would make it more obvious to poor shopkeepers that they need to learn.


Considering the fact that I am making at least 2k per day in each island only from "over buyers", I know what I am doing more than the credit you give me. You can make a profit from a price increase only at the first day it happens but when everyone increases the price you can't make profit from that anymore and you will run out of that commodity, unless you increase your buy price.

 
I can't see how 55k is "pretty much nothing" when we're talking about you losing 1 poe per iron.


55k is nothing because it is less than I can make in a single elite pilly. The post is about a principal and not about a 1 PoE loss for each iron.
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Obsidian - Snipah, Senior Officer of the crew Arctic Pirate Penguins.
[Nov 20, 2017 2:12:55 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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Re: Market trolling Reply to this Post
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Should this kind of trolling be even allowed? It is both the highest buying price and the lowest selling price, which is the exact same price.



"Yes"

There, question answered and thread over.
[Nov 20, 2017 5:45:58 PM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Devonin

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You can make a profit from a price increase only at the first day it happens but when everyone increases the price you can't make profit from that anymore and you will run out of that commodity, unless you increase your buy price.


So if I'm understanding you properly, when everybody increases their price, you sell your entire stock at the price you were asking? Those of us in the retail business call that success.
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[Edit 1 times, last edit by Devonin at Nov 20, 2017 5:48:17 PM]
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Strider399

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Lylesnipah wrote: 
Considering the fact that I am making at least 2k per day in each island only from "over buyers", I know what I am doing more than the credit you give me. You can make a profit from a price increase only at the first day it happens but when everyone increases the price you can't make profit from that anymore and you will run out of that commodity, unless you increase your buy price.


I never ever understood people who make this big deal about "over buyers" and how they're "making so much money" off them.

I regularly over-pay at my shipyard because I'm not running my shipyard for profit. I'm running my shipyard to build boats to use in Atlantis or blockades. It's absolutely not worth my time to sit there and adjust my prices every day to save myself a negligible amount in the long run.

If I were to pay 5 poe above the average asking price for all commodities that are used to make a War Brig, I end up only paying a 4,000 poe premium to not have to do any actual work other than making sure there's poe in my coffers to continue buying commodities.

Let's say I want to build a 200 brig fleet. 4,000 poe extra per brig spread out over a 200 brig fleet is only 800,000 poe. When you factor in doubloon delivery fees (assuming I don't want to buy doubloons with real life money), you're looking at only 5 war brigs worth of poe "wasted" over the course of ~300 days of production.

That 200 brig fleet I've built will cost ~10 million poe to build and another ~20 million poe to deliver. That's ~30 million poe to produce a 200 brig fleet. Spending an extra 800k to severely cut my workload down (I literally don't lift a finger to move commodities) is absolutely worth the 2.9% "premium" I'm paying for my brigs.


I realize this has very little to do with the topic at hand, but it always bugs me when I get smug tells from noobs telling me I'm overpaying.
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Sid on Obsidian

Striderrs everywhere else
[Nov 21, 2017 10:54:54 AM] Show Printable Version of Post        Send Private Message [Link]  Go to top 
Prammy16

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Strider339 wrote: 
I regularly over-pay at my shipyard because I'm not running my shipyard for profit. I'm running my shipyard to build boats to use in Atlantis or blockades. It's absolutely not worth my time to sit there and adjust my prices every day to save myself a negligible amount in the long run.


Time is money. Absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to spend your time on the high seas, rather than waiting at the market to jump on 6 poe profit per commod.
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-Porglit on Emerald
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[Edit 2 times, last edit by Prammy16 at Nov 21, 2017 2:43:26 PM]
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