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Posted by majestrate at Jul 14, 2018 4:16:35 AM
Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
On Obsidian, in either of the Wild Seas arch's, pre-swabbie change, with a Baghlah of 9 players and no swabbies, your spawn would be staffed at around 15 or 16 NPPs and you'd be going against Baghlahs, Junks, MBs. That's after the first battle (a win), with minimal jobber turnover.

After the change, same route and ship (10 players, no swabbies), spawns after the first battle (a win), with minimal jobber turnover, are more along the lines of 10 v 22+ with MG+ being the typical ship size.

Is it at all possible that something is automatically calculating the old swabbie levels into spawn generation? (regardless of how many swabbies are actually aboard)
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Posted by Robyns090 at Jul 15, 2018 1:52:19 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Simple response: Yes
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Posted by joshuawhelan at Jul 15, 2018 9:11:01 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
Simple response: Yes


Do you have evidence for this? I've found them to be the same as before.

10 vs 22 in WS isn't that uncommon.
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Posted by Robyns090 at Jul 15, 2018 3:41:47 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
I havent tested every single ship but generally they have changed. Most dramatically for sloops.

Either way you can just lower the % of swabbies you want back down to the level they were before at it wont be any different, pay or spawns.
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Posted by Whyknot7 at Jul 15, 2018 11:41:38 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
No matter how low your %swabbies are set, your spawns are a bigger ship with a lot more pirates,

Example; i made a WG pillage and set bot percentage to %60. We were real ppl +bots= 20 total . The route was one of easiest on emerald scrim-penebscot. We spawned Warfrigs with? GREEN ? might rings but it turned out 20 vs 44 frays. Normally it should be Xebec spawn with max 29.

The spawn and pillage system is completely messed up even worse now.

Posted by Filthyjake at Jul 16, 2018 4:25:41 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
The spawn and pillage system is completely messed up even worse now.


+1

Took out solo Cutter set at 70% was spawning MB with green green rings, was out numbered all the time.
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Posted by hidemyhoney at Jul 16, 2018 6:23:33 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
 
The spawn and pillage system is completely messed up even worse now.


+1

Took out solo Cutter set at 70% was spawning MB with green green rings, was out numbered all the time.


Seems obvious to me that, when the update happened for more spawns, they haven't been adjusted for lower percentages for each ship. Basically it seems updated to everything at 100% swabbies for spawns not adjusted for others, it does cause a problem people need even fights yo.

+1 as well for system is baa-a-a-a-d
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Posted by Rick9109 at Aug 4, 2018 9:20:03 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Anecdotally I think that it has both changed and not changed.

I feel comfortable saying even with a relatively small sample size of tests saying that the spawn always seems to assume you have the minimum number of swabbies. Which means you're spawning for lack of a better term, tier 2 spawns from the start.

(This term isn't perfectly descriptive because some ships can generate many different types of ships, sometimes out of order quality of opposition, but let's take a ship with formerly a stable and predictable spawning pattern such as a Merchant Brig. Tier 1 is your "minimum spawn" which was another MB, which will spawn for you no matter how few you have aboard. At, or around 15 fifteen pirates you begin to spawn a mix of full or nearly-full MBs and WBs with around 17 opponents).

From this point, spawns seem to be somewhat static in number--although not in might (more on that later)--as you add human pirates to the voyage, with perhaps an additional swabbie or two as compensation to the enemy if you're doing very well, but nowhere like the ramp you and I would previously be familiar with.

When you actually get to the pirates that would normally cause tier 2 spawns though (around 14-16 humans on a MB), interestingly enough, your spawns, at least in numbers (not quality of opponent) seem to revert to how spawns work had this change never been put in, and then you ramp from normal there (until your might cap, of course).

What is up for debate, though, and honestly I'm undecided on this, is how the spawns are affected during the period between your first human pirate hire and the Tier 2 line of humans. At least anecdotally it seems like it's behaving like it should, but one or two pirates added or leaving cause massive swings that are not reflective of the might of the human pirate who arrived or left. This leads to a roller coaster of payouts.

My theory is that part of it behaving "as it should" seems to mean that some of the opponent bots are very very bad because it's trying to make 19 pirates be good opponents for 6 humans and 13 bots, and the opponent formula knows how bad the swabbies we get are and adjusts accordingly, making Superbad Bots and we just are not getting paid very muchfor these Superbad Bots as opponents. Even one pirate leaving or going may result in more than one Superbad Bot replacing or being replaced by one of the normal bots from a normal spawn.

But of course no one has perfectly predicted payouts (or if they have,t hey haven't told me) before so this is all conjecture.

Well, I guess I'm going to start formally tracking this now, somewhere Shuranthae is proud, I hope.
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.

Posted by Rick9109 at Aug 4, 2018 9:28:37 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
In response to some other people, I am not going to say the system is bad, because I think it is good for pirates who suck at driving.

While I won't go so far to say it's pointless to shoot before one hits their tier 2 line (because greedies, people's inability to deal with greedies, and a lot of swabbies of questionable value on your side), one certainly doesn't need to dominate the navigation portion to win the melee.

That really opens up the world of naving to a lot of individuals who otherwise would never be able to lead good pillages to lead good pillages.

So agreed, this sucks for my own personal fun, but I don't think I'm the type of person that the devs should be catering too, either, and I think this is good for the general game.

I think the fix might be the opponent dynamically spawning lower numbers if you reduce the swabbies as it did in the past.
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.

Posted by Rick9109 at Aug 13, 2018 7:09:20 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12ASpro6J2k0V5Q2qdQ9HEYUBrFZkkV7Co3aQcP8fFOg/edit?usp=sharing
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.

Posted by majestrate at Aug 14, 2018 1:37:43 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
You forgot to include the route, as that should make a difference as well?

If you keep tracking, maybe also try to track how many bots/humans were left alive after the melee?

Shur would probably be giggling at you for doing this, you know, in the way that he enjoyed the suffering of others within the game.

P.S.: A14/A15 have the wrong date
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Posted by Sovereignty at Aug 14, 2018 3:07:13 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
There's a lot missing from this data set to make it relevant (Ignoring all discussion on the topic at hand).

As majestrate point out, tracking surviving pirates and route being two important factors, but also tracking the score of the previous fights bnav would be rather important as well.

There's actually a whole host of other factors in play as well with regards to spawns, and missing even a few can really make the data seem as if it's 'off' so to speak.

While I think there is a delicate middle-ground to aim for so that the whole collection process isn't cumbersome, you really wont get the whole picture with what you're tracking currently.

Posted by mari_ at Aug 14, 2018 9:39:53 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
I think the implementation of additional swabbies to us has always equated to the same for the brigands/barb ships were are seeing during pillaging.

We had a bagh ranging between 11 and 16 people on it and every MG had 26 on it, so it feels like they spawn based on X people but station numbers are Y so the code is giving every bot ship the additional swabbies for the station fill.

As people can set their slider from 0-100% swabbies looks to me like they need that slider in the code to be set at something not quite 100%.
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Posted by Rick9109 at Aug 15, 2018 2:03:42 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
You forgot to include the route, as that should make a difference as well?

If you keep tracking, maybe also try to track how many bots/humans were left alive after the melee?

Shur would probably be giggling at you for doing this, you know, in the way that he enjoyed the suffering of others within the game.

P.S.: A14/A15 have the wrong date



Lmao oh barnacle. I traveled back in time two months apparently after losing. Yeah I'm not the best record keeper.

I'll track the route too, that's not a problem. Almost surely Turtle-Alpha - Cnossos both times but best to mark it down just in case.

Surviving bots/humans should also be doable as long as I'm quick.

And yes Shur'd definitely find this whole distraction amusing.


Filtered in-game = filtered on the forums. - Faulkston
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.

Posted by Rick9109 at Aug 15, 2018 2:15:21 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
There's a lot missing from this data set to make it relevant (Ignoring all discussion on the topic at hand).

As majestrate point out, tracking surviving pirates and route being two important factors, but also tracking the score of the previous fights bnav would be rather important as well.

There's actually a whole host of other factors in play as well with regards to spawns, and missing even a few can really make the data seem as if it's 'off' so to speak.

While I think there is a delicate middle-ground to aim for so that the whole collection process isn't cumbersome, you really wont get the whole picture with what you're tracking currently.



Score is doable too although I'm fairly confident that the only reason that your bnav matters is that theoretically your margin of victory (which the devs once upon a time confirmed was what caused your ramp) should be better if you max the opponents (I only took more than one volley in one of those battles, and the first loss was 4.5-.5, secound loss was 2.5-.5).

Doesn't hurt to track it to prove either you or me wrong.
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Rome
Pirates of the Damned, Crimson Tide.
I don't care what it did to them, the game's been good to me.

Posted by Murcatto at Aug 15, 2018 9:24:38 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
I've been putting off posting in this thread as one I thought it was pretty blatant that there was an issue with the change (So it'd be fixed) which resulted in the death of basically most pillaging in Wild Seas, but the other was I didn't have the numbers to back up any of my statements as I haven't bnavved in quite some time.

Numerous of my hearties who regularly participated in Wild Seas voyages from Bnavvers to jobbers, all discussed the same issues. The spawns had become more difficult, they were spawning LS with 5 men on a sloop. Plus the booty was drastically lowered.

All this would indicate as many others in the thread have suggested, the game distinctly believes you are carrying the swabbies onboard. Even when you are not and you have the slider set to 0 or fire the swabbies who were onboard your vessel. So it's not only giving you a spawn where the fray is more difficult when many already struggle to win WS frays, but also taking a cut from the pay for the use of the bot that isn't even on the ship.

Having read Rome suggest that the system isn't bad, it directly made me want to go out and pillage and show the large gulf in what's happening after this change.

I took a pillage out today, of which I'll post a screenshot below. I've had numerous arguments on Bnav scoring so let's not get into that here as you will notice my scores are just as bad across my high paying pillages, I go for speed where I can for my jobbers.



What you will notice from the image I've posted, second battle in we're spawning Long Ships, this is not normal for 5 people. I have a high experience on Obsidian and also on the other oceans. Which I'm using as an example of the fact I've led numerous pillages so I know in my own experience with 5 people prior to the swabby change. I have never once spawned a Long Ship with 5, I would with 6 which is why most high difficulty sloop pillages run with 5.

So not only battle 2 am I spawning Longships but the opposing bot number is higher than I'd generally get, as I normally average around 8 opponents with it climbing the deeper we go into the ramp. Most significantly though is the pay. It's crashed to levels around 06?

You will also notice in the above image I spawned a Red Baglah BK, again in my time on any sloop pillage, I've never spawned anything so large with 5 people aboard.

Now below I'll show some of the images of pillages I've done in the past when we were trying to find out why the booty on Obsidian fluctuated so much. So these numbers are from well before the change and the pay difference in terms of spawns is huge.









From everyone else who was adding to the collection, it was very similar from them all. None of them spawned a LS on a 5 man sloop under any circumstance and the pay was consistently larger than what we're dealing with currently. Everyone adding was also pillaging within Wild Seas.


So across numerous pillages, numerous different players the ramp wasn't this low, nor were the spawns this large. It would pretty much make it clear that the swabby change has caused an issue in the code somewhere I guess? I would say it certainly needs fixed as it's causing less Wild Seas pillages to be run, as even a Baglah is getting I think 700poe a jobber with a really good team onboard.


(edit I can link people to the drive if they want to look through more of the other pillages, just not posting the link incase someone maliciously deletes it, PM me if you'd like it.)
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Posted by Stan5 at Aug 16, 2018 4:47:40 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Pretty good catch Solitude. Any chance you could experiment with another variable? Fill your boat to 7 so the game knows the last two spots are taken by humans not Swabbies and see if the payout returns to something somewhat normal since there won't be any ghost Swabbies to get a cut of the booty.
I'm not sure what to make of Rome's test as the result posted showed pillaging Post-Update, but not the same kind of pillage Pre-Update to compare it with.
If you also want to run a 9-person Baghlah to test, we can run it against my old logs, though I'm pretty sure the results would be the same as what you originally found.

Posted by eduardo6s at Aug 31, 2018 7:30:10 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
So recently I decided I would try to get ULT bnav on Obsidian so I started doing WS pillys, I go on hard-very hard difficulty and I have also noticed this swabbies bug. On 5 man I can’t really build a big ramp as before even with 5/6 win streaks on WS with a dnaver scoring goods/excellents, most of time I get ships with 10 people and only when I screw up the ramp I get 8/9. Sometimes I even get longship spawns something that bnavers such as king Jeremy that was #1 bnaver has told me didn’t ever happen to him before the patch( he hasn’t bnaved ever since)

I’ve also been doing 6 man for test purposes and my last battle was a red Longship that engaged me after 2/3 max-1/0 battles. Even tho I maxed-1(2 naughty bumps) them I lost hard a 6-13, even tho it’s not impossible to win this it seems really hard and I don’t remember getting this spawns when I used to job for Jeremy also...

Right now WS is not worth doing for poe, only if you want to get your bnav stat up, but keep in mind poe will be horrible and frays very hard and not worth the poe you get from them, since the invisible swabbies seem to get a cut.

Posted by Stan5 at Sep 14, 2018 8:15:53 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Bump. It's been 2 months since the swabbie update that has all but made pillaging in the Wild Seas feasible. Please let us know if this is a permanent change

Posted by Fransil at Sep 16, 2018 4:47:14 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
People with excel sheets and PhDs on the topic oh my.
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Posted by Stan5 at Sep 21, 2018 9:02:26 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Bumping back up. Game changing issue for most of us that enjoy non-greedy bash pillages. Still stuck battling nothing but Longships and Xebecs, and BKs all come up red, and nearly impossible to do. Even petitions have been attempted, and despite the numerous bug reports submitted, and the 3+ forum posts up regarding this issue, those that petitioned have been told to go to the forums and submit more bug reports. Please let us know if this is permanent or if a fix is coming in the distant future. Wild Seas is unusable unless you can keep a full ship the entire run.

Posted by Fransil at Oct 2, 2018 3:21:19 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
There's a new Rockstar game coming out dood.
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Posted by Stan5 at Oct 11, 2018 5:40:16 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Bump, it's been months since this issue started. The only way we can make more than 1k per battle, per person is by having a ship full with pirates and 0 swabbies, and this is on the wild seas were 2-3k was the norm. The second one person leaves the boat, the pay plummets back down. BKs are still near impossible to do as they only spawn red ships. A full baghlah filled with 18 pirates having to battle a Xebec with 40+ aboard is not fun and all attempts have been unsuccessful. I'm referring to BKs spawned from battles, not BK Compasses. We've done as we were told in the petitions, we've submitted Bug Reports and have brought it up on the forums (a lot), please help.

Posted by majestrate at Oct 14, 2018 3:53:32 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Stan, when you talk payout, are you talking total or just auto-divvy?
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Posted by patgangster at Oct 14, 2018 9:41:06 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
He's talking auto-divvy.
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Posted by Stan5 at Oct 14, 2018 6:46:31 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 
He's talking auto-divvy.

I mean the initial cut paid to each person on the ship right after the battle yes.
I have attached these 3 images to show some of the problems we have on the Wild Seas.








To the average eye, it looks normal - Wild Seas, haha it should be difficult, haha you suck at SF haha. If you look closely however, you'll notice we have 0 swabbies aboard and yet the number of bots we spawn do not make any sense. On a Fanchuan with 12 Pirates aboard (full ship) we spawned a ship with 15 bots, which i'll say is fairly normal. When you take the same 12 pirates and put them aboard a Baghlah, still with 0 bots, you get a completely different result, a Xebec with 25 bots. Similiar numbers to what you'll spawn with a full ship (26 bots) which is normal. Now I've done a lot of battles on Obsidian as evident by the screenshot below, with roughly about 100% of them occurring in the Wild Seas on Baghlahs and Fanchuans



Pre-Swabbie Update numbers: Baghlah with 12 Pirates + 0 NPCs Aboard spawns War Brig with 16-18 Aboard

Post-Swabbie Update numbers: Baghlah with 12 Pirates + 0 NPCs Aboard spawns Xebec with 25-27 aboard.


Pre-Swabbie Update: Baghlah with 13 Pirates + 0 NPCs aboard spawn Merchant Galleon with 20-22 aboard.

Post-Swabbie Update: Baghlah with 13 Pirates + 0 NPCs aboard spawn Xebec with 25-27 aboard.


Pre-Swabbie Update: Baghlah with 16 Pirates + 0 NPCs aboard spawn Merchant Galleon/Xebec with 23-24 aboard.

Post-Swabbie Update: Baghlah with 16 Pirates + 0 NPCs aboard spawn Xebec with 25-27 aboard.


I'm don't want to say maybe something is broken, but perhaps something may have gone wrong somewhere. Please please check it and give us some kind of feedback. Most of the bnavers that run Wild Seas Pillages on Obsidian have quit doing so and the rest of us are forced to have a full ship with Humans only aboard or face the wrath of the wild numbers. Having swabbies aboard ships on a wild seas pillage is not really an option to us as they will be eliminated in approximately 10-15 seconds from when the fray begins due to the difficulty of the route. Please check it out.

Posted by Filthyjake at Oct 14, 2018 6:57:49 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
While the added swabbies have made the game a little easier to play, moving stock ect... it has destroyed pillaging, rarely do you see pillages loading... the pay went down... and over all the game has been hurt yet again.

If it can't be fixed put it back to pre swabbie update. I am not going to lie I really enjoy having them but not at the cost of the game having next to nothing to do. With the way lockers are divided one needs to be on port to port to max options, I see so many baggies or larger ships with 2-3 people on them.

Yes, its great to see the larger ships sail.... but in reality is way a ship that has the room for 159 people should not successfully be able to be run by 3 people... while a ship with a max of 18 people full of actual people not able to see a successful pillage.

TLDR:
a GF with 3 humans is more successful pillaging then a ship full of humans. This makes zero sense nor has it helped the game, rarely do you see pillages loading now. (on Obsidian)
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?Retired? On a Break? I found a new love...
Casual player or yet another who moved on.

Posted by Mitjana at Oct 15, 2018 12:03:16 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
 

TLDR:
a GF with 3 humans is more successful pillaging then a ship full of humans. This makes zero sense nor has it helped the game, rarely do you see pillages loading now. (on Obsidian)



There's something wrong with normal pillages, everyone posting seems to agree on that for the most part. However I don't see how this is leading to calls for completely reversing a positive change in that people can take out any-size of ship and be successful.


I don't think many of the commenters on these forums are fairly representing the situation that existed before the change. If you played at a time-zone that wasn't populated you were going to find there were 0 pillages being run and anything bigger than a sloop pillage was pretty much non-existant. The swabbie change didn't fix that exactly as people dont like to job for greedy fighting, but at least it made it so those of us playing these low population times can at least enjoy something resembling the core gameplay




We still have trouble loading things normally, and while I absolutely agree with the main thought here that there is a problem with ws pillaging (And I think its worse and it impacts normal non-ws pillies too), I don't advocate one that makes it so people who play during my timezone go back to the game as it was before when we pretty much couldn't play.


I would like to see the developers comment on the situation though.

I'd really be curious to know how many more people actually go out and greedy bash now that its so lucrative compared to how many people actively ran ws pillies, on account of greater good and all that

Posted by Zenithar at Oct 15, 2018 5:47:58 AM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
Everybody is actually 100% in accord on this one - it's just people saying:


A) Investigate and patch the bugs caused by the Swabbie update to pillages.

And if they can't be fixed

B) Revert the update because it's broken other things.

Posted by Stan5 at Oct 15, 2018 12:00:23 PM
Re: Have spawns and the booty ramp been impacted by the swabbie change?
As much as I am not a fan of greedy bashing, its something a lot of people find fun and this post was in no way created to advocate removing of anything people find fun. I'm just trying to point out a possible flaw in the system that started after the swabbie update. For diagnostic purposes, the configuration slider has no effect on the spawns. At 0%, 50% and 100%, the ship spawns are still being calculated like we have a full vessel.

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